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Re: Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'

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  • j s
    Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that just joined since it appears that there were only 800 members prior to the vote allowing them in. I guess
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
      Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
      just joined since it appears that there were only
      800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

      I guess it's also another "invalidation"
      of African-Americans historical
      Native-American ties and lineage.

      But I think besides racism
      it also came down to greed.

      But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
      if all of a sudden there were people who joined
      with no indian identity, experience or
      interest who wanted their entitled share.

      This is just one reason why I have no real interest
      in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
      because I'm sure one would really have to jump
      through hoops in what is basically a political process.

      Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
      it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

      So many of us are of indian descent
      but will never have the "right" to
      claim it in this society without recieving
      snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
      without the pedirgee of tribal membership.

       
       
      lbaker <tlbaker@...> wrote:
      Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'

      Cherokee Nation members voted
      Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
      the tribal citizenship of the
      descendants of the people the
      Cherokee once owned as slaves.


    • multiracialbookclub
      Jeff wrote:
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007

        Jeff wrote:

        <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
        if all of a sudden there were people who joined
        with no indian identity, experience or interest
        who wanted their entitled share.">>>



        My reply:

        Hi Jeff,

        Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
        always appreciated and is good food for thought.

        The only problem here, however, is that
        this analogy does not apply to the
        situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

        The majority of The Freedmen have
        been repeatedly proven to be the known
        Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
        'descendents of the people who were originally
        slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
        era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
        became members of and absorbed into the
        tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
        became referred to as being The Freedmen.

        Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
        lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
        have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
        heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

        As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
        a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
        certainly have more connection to and shared
        heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
        of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
        up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
        'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
        family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
        other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
        and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
        or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation').

        Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
        'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
        the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
        of the tribe and they have shared in little or
        none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
        'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
        realized that casino money could be involved.

        Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
        in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
        Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
        largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

        Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
        -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
        (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
        thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
        order to, yet again, deny the people who have
        any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
        the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

        It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
        -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
        caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
        step against the very Freedmen who have been
        an active, important and functioning part of 
        the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

        The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
        long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
        up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
        of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

        They are a centuries-old, generations-spanning
        full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
        not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
        and racism-embracing acceptance of the
        racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
        to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
        (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
        -- would never have even been an issue.

        The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
        in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
        is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
        that which was taken by White-Supremacist
        Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

        Just a thought.
        Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

        --M


        P.S.

        A good book and film on the subject
        of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
        'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


        Related Links:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1386
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1747
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1400
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/2562


         In Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com,
        j s <creolescience@...> wrote:


        Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
        just joined since it appears that there were only
        800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

        I guess it's also another "invalidation"
        of
        African-Americans historical
        Native-American ties and lineage.

        But I think besides racism
        it also came down to greed.

        But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
        if all of a sudden there were people who joined
        with no indian identity, experience or
        interest who wanted their entitled share.

        This is just one reason why I have no real interest
        in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
        because I'm sure one would really have to jump
        through hoops in what is basically a political process.

        Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
        it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

        So many of us are of indian descent
        but will never have the "right" to
        claim it in this society without recieving
        snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
        without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


        lbaker <tlbaker@...> wrote:


        Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


        Cherokee Nation members voted
        Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
        the tribal citizenship of the
        descendants of the people the
        Cherokee once owned as slaves.



        http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/

      • j s
        I guess many might have thought they were those long lost relatives wanting to cash in regardless of the truth. I dont support their decision but I guess I m
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
          I guess many might have thought they were
          those "long lost relatives" wanting
          to cash in regardless of the truth.
          I dont support their decision but I
          guess I'm just trying to see all sides.

          multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:

          Jeff wrote:

          <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
          if all of a sudden there were people who joined
          with no indian identity, experience or interest
          who wanted their entitled share.">>>



          My reply:

          Hi Jeff,

          Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
          always appreciated and is good food for thought.

          The only problem here, however, is that
          this analogy does not apply to the
          situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

          The majority of The Freedmen have
          been repeatedly proven to be the known
          Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
          'descendents of the people who were originally
          slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
          era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
          became members of and absorbed into the
          tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
          became referred to as being The Freedmen.

          Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
          lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
          have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
          heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

          As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
          a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
          certainly have more connection to and shared
          heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
          of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
          up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
          'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
          family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
          other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
          and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
          or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

          Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
          'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
          the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
          of the tribe and they have shared in little or
          none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
          'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
          realized that casino money could be involved.

          Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
          in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
          Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
          largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

          Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
          -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
          (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
          thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
          order to, yet again, deny the people who have
          any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
          the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

          It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
          -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
          caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
          step against the very Freedmen who have been
          an active, important and functioning part of 
          the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

          The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
          long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
          up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
          of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

          They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
          full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
          not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
          and racism-embracing acceptance of the
          racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
          to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
          (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
          -- would never have even been an issue.

          The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
          in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
          is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
          that which was taken by White-Supremacist
          Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

          Just a thought.
          Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

          --M


          P.S.

          A good book and film on the subject
          of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
          'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


          Related Links:

          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562


           In Generation-Mixed@ yahoogroups. com,
          j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


          Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
          just joined since it appears that there were only
          800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

          I guess it's also another "invalidation"
          of
          African-Americans historical
          Native-American ties and lineage.

          But I think besides racism
          it also came down to greed.

          But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
          if all of a sudden there were people who joined
          with no indian identity, experience or
          interest who wanted their entitled share.

          This is just one reason why I have no real interest
          in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
          because I'm sure one would really have to jump
          through hoops in what is basically a political process.

          Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
          it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

          So many of us are of indian descent
          but will never have the "right" to
          claim it in this society without recieving
          snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
          without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


          lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


          Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


          Cherokee Nation members voted
          Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
          the tribal citizenship of the
          descendants of the people the
          Cherokee once owned as slaves.



          http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/

        • multiracialbookclub
          That s true ... Jeff! You do have a good knack for looking at all sides of an issue -- and it s really appreciated. [:)] As noted, it s really good food for
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007

            That's true ... Jeff!

            You do have a good knack for looking at all
            sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.:)

            As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'. :-?

            --- M



             j s <creolescience@...> wrote:


            I guess many might have thought they were
            those "long lost relatives" wanting
            to cash in regardless of the truth.
            I dont support their decision but I
            guess I'm just trying to see all sides.


            'multiracialbookclub'  wrote:


            Jeff wrote:

            <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
            if all of a sudden there were people who joined
            with no indian identity, experience or interest
            who wanted their entitled share.">>>



            My reply:

            Hi Jeff,

            Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
            always appreciated and is good food for thought.

            The only problem here, however, is that
            this analogy does not apply to the
            situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

            The majority of The Freedmen have
            been repeatedly proven to be the known
            Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
            'descendents of the people who were originally
            slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
            era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
            became members of and absorbed into the
            tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
            became referred to as being The Freedmen.

            Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
            lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
            have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
            heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

            As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
            a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
            certainly have more connection to and shared
            heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
            of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
            up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
            'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
            family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
            other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
            and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
            or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

            Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
            'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
            the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
            of the tribe and they have shared in little or
            none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
            'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
            realized that casino money could be involved.

            Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
            in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
            Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
            largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

            Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
            -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
            (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
            thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
            order to, yet again, deny the people who have
            any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
            the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

            It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
            -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
            caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
            step against the very Freedmen who have been
            an active, important and functioning part of 
            the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

            The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
            long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
            up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
            of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

            They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
            full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
            not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
            and racism-embracing acceptance of the
            racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
            to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
            (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
            -- would never have even been an issue.

            The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
            in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
            is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
            that which was taken by White-Supremacist
            Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

            Just a thought.
            Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

            --M


            P.S.

            A good book and film on the subject
            of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
            'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


            Related Links:

            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562 


             j s <creolescience@...> wrote:


            Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
            just joined since it appears that there were only
            800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

            I guess it's also another "invalidation"
            of
            African-Americans historical
            Native-American ties and lineage.

            But I think besides racism
            it also came down to greed.

            But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
            if all of a sudden there were people who joined
            with no indian identity, experience or
            interest who wanted their entitled share.

            This is just one reason why I have no real interest
            in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
            because I'm sure one would really have to jump
            through hoops in what is basically a political process.

            Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
            it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

            So many of us are of indian descent
            but will never have the "right" to
            claim it in this society without recieving
            snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
            without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


            lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


            Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


            Cherokee Nation members voted
            Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
            the tribal citizenship of the
            descendants of the people the
            Cherokee once owned as slaves.



            http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/

          • j s
            If I was a freedman s descendant I think I would no longer want to be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face. multiracialbookclub
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
              If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
              be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.


              multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:

              That's true ... Jeff!

              You do have a good knack for looking at all
              sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.:)

              As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'. :-?

              --- M



               j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


              I guess many might have thought they were
              those "long lost relatives" wanting
              to cash in regardless of the truth.
              I dont support their decision but I
              guess I'm just trying to see all sides.


              'multiracialbookclu b'  wrote:


              Jeff wrote:

              <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
              if all of a sudden there were people who joined
              with no indian identity, experience or interest
              who wanted their entitled share.">>>



              My reply:

              Hi Jeff,

              Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
              always appreciated and is good food for thought.

              The only problem here, however, is that
              this analogy does not apply to the
              situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

              The majority of The Freedmen have
              been repeatedly proven to be the known
              Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
              'descendents of the people who were originally
              slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
              era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
              became members of and absorbed into the
              tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
              became referred to as being The Freedmen.

              Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
              lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
              have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
              heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

              As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
              a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
              certainly have more connection to and shared
              heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
              of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
              up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
              'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
              family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
              other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
              and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
              or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

              Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
              'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
              the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
              of the tribe and they have shared in little or
              none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
              'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
              realized that casino money could be involved.

              Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
              in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
              Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
              largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

              Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
              -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
              (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
              thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
              order to, yet again, deny the people who have
              any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
              the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

              It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
              -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
              caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
              step against the very Freedmen who have been
              an active, important and functioning part of 
              the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

              The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
              long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
              up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
              of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

              They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
              full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
              not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
              and racism-embracing acceptance of the
              racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
              to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
              (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
              -- would never have even been an issue.

              The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
              in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
              is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
              that which was taken by White-Supremacist
              Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

              Just a thought.
              Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

              --M


              P.S.

              A good book and film on the subject
              of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
              'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


              Related Links:

              http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
              http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
              http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
              http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562 


               j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


              Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
              just joined since it appears that there were only
              800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

              I guess it's also another "invalidation"
              of
              African-Americans historical
              Native-American ties and lineage.

              But I think besides racism
              it also came down to greed.

              But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
              if all of a sudden there were people who joined
              with no indian identity, experience or
              interest who wanted their entitled share.

              This is just one reason why I have no real interest
              in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
              because I'm sure one would really have to jump
              through hoops in what is basically a political process.

              Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
              it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

              So many of us are of indian descent
              but will never have the "right" to
              claim it in this society without recieving
              snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
              without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


              lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


              Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


              Cherokee Nation members voted
              Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
              the tribal citizenship of the
              descendants of the people the
              Cherokee once owned as slaves.



              http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/

            • Heather Stimmel
              Yeah, I have to agree! This is ridiculous and, like Multi, I tend to think it is out of racist attitudes that this is happening. I remember reading on their
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                Yeah, I have to agree! This is ridiculous and, like Multi, I tend
                to think it is out of racist attitudes that this is happening.
                I remember reading on their website (Cherokee) the qualifications
                you need to be officially registered within the Cherokee tribe,
                so this is not really a shock to me (but, in a way, it is).
                The site says if you cannot prove (within a certain fraction-
                can't remember what it was, but it seemed a little ridiculous
                at the time) that you are a certain (fractional) amount Cherokee
                Indian, than they will not officially recognize a person as a Cherokee.
                The reason I know this is, because... my son
                is part Cherokee, as am I (or, so I'm told).
                I've done quite a bit of research on this subject, to little avail.
                It's almost unconscionable (sp?) that they can actually "expel"
                members they officially accepted as "genuine" at some point in history!
                That's what I don't get???!
                Heather

                Related Link:

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/2566
              • multiracialbookclub
                Jeff wrote: If I was a freedman s descendant I think I would no longer want to be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face. My Reply:
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                  Jeff wrote:

                  If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
                  be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.

                  My Reply:

                  Yeah – I hear ya' -- and I think you make
                  a good point in this food for thought about
                  what could be the initial emotional responses
                  that anyone would feel after having been
                  treated in what is so clearly an unfair way.

                  That having been said, I feel I have to add that
                  I also tend to wonder if -- since it appears that
                  so many of these Freedmen grew up largely in
                  the culture (language, food, region, history, outlook,
                  struggle, identity, etc.) only of the Cherokee Nation
                  – it may be the only culture they feel they 'really' know
                  and, thus, I wonder if they would have a hard time letting
                  go of their multi-generational cultural and family ties and trying
                  to become independent of them and the Nation as a whole.

                  Also – after centuries of struggling as `part of the
                  Cherokee Nation' I wonder if branching out on
                  their own would make them feel that their past
                  efforts and those of their ancestors was in vain.

                  It kind of reminds me of when the people who were
                  of the
                  African-American (AA) Ethnic group were able  
                  to go to places like France, in larger numbers, during
                  and after World War I – wherein they were said to
                  have been treated a lot better than they were treated
                  in The States – but, due to what they and their
                  ancestors had struggled for in the States, they
                  were generally not willing to give up their
                  American citizenship and move-on elsewhere.

                  Most decided to return to and remain in the States and to
                  work to try to obtain equal rights, protection, participation,
                  treatment and citizenry in the country – and this drive is
                  part of what led to the American Civil Rights Movement 
                  which provided these benefits to both the
                  AAs and 
                  other citizens and residents of the country as well.


                  It seems that there is something about those cultural, 
                  historical and familial ties that cause people to just
                  want to lay claim to what is clearly rightfully theirs.

                  Just a thought.

                  Have a great day.

                  -- M

                  Related Links:


                  http://www.afrigeneas.com/forume/index.cgi?noframes;read=9923
                  http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=875400ddf2fb8fcadc8910f36e174e8a 
                  http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/History.htm
                  http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/



                  j s <creolescience@...> wrote:


                  If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
                  be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.


                  multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:



                  That's true ... Jeff!

                  You do have a good knack for looking at all
                  sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.:)

                  As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'. :-?

                  --- M



                   j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                  I guess many might have thought they were
                  those "long lost relatives" wanting
                  to cash in regardless of the truth.
                  I dont support their decision but I
                  guess I'm just trying to see all sides.


                  'multiracialbookclu b'  wrote:


                  Jeff wrote:


                  <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                  if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                  with no indian identity, experience or interest
                  who wanted their entitled share.">>>



                  My reply:


                  Hi Jeff,

                  Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
                  always appreciated and is good food for thought.

                  The only problem here, however, is that
                  this analogy does not apply to the
                  situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

                  The majority of The Freedmen have
                  been repeatedly proven to be the known
                  Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
                  'descendents of the people who were originally
                  slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
                  era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
                  became members of and absorbed into the
                  tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
                  became referred to as being The Freedmen.

                  Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
                  lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
                  have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
                  heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

                  As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
                  a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
                  certainly have more connection to and shared
                  heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
                  of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
                  up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
                  'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
                  family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
                  other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
                  and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
                  or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

                  Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
                  'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
                  the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
                  of the tribe and they have shared in little or
                  none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
                  'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
                  realized that casino money could be involved.

                  Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
                  in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
                  Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
                  largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

                  Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
                  -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
                  (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
                  thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
                  order to, yet again, deny the people who have
                  any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
                  the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

                  It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
                  -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
                  caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
                  step against the very Freedmen who have been
                  an active, important and functioning part of 
                  the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

                  The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
                  long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
                  up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
                  of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

                  They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
                  full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
                  not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
                  and racism-embracing acceptance of the
                  racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
                  to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
                  (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
                  -- would never have even been an issue.

                  The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
                  in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
                  is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
                  that which was taken by White-Supremacist
                  Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

                  Just a thought.
                  Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

                  --M


                  P.S.

                  A good book and film on the subject
                  of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
                  'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


                  Related Links:

                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562 



                   j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                  Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
                  just joined since it appears that there were only
                  800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

                  I guess it's also another "invalidation"
                  of
                  African-Americans historical
                  Native-American ties and lineage.

                  But I think besides racism
                  it also came down to greed.

                  But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                  if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                  with no indian identity, experience or
                  interest who wanted their entitled share.

                  This is just one reason why I have no real interest
                  in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
                  because I'm sure one would really have to jump
                  through hoops in what is basically a political process.

                  Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
                  it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

                  So many of us are of indian descent
                  but will never have the "right" to
                  claim it in this society without recieving
                  snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
                  without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


                  lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


                  Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


                  Cherokee Nation members voted
                  Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
                  the tribal citizenship of the
                  descendants of the people the
                  Cherokee once owned as slaves.



                  http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/
                • j s
                  I guess since I recall the article said that about 2,000 had just signed up last year I wonder about their closeness to the tribal ways. I feel worse for the
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                    I guess since I recall the article said
                    that about 2,000 had just signed up last year I
                    wonder about their closeness to the tribal ways.
                    I feel worse for the 800 who had been members so long.
                    Still, if the traditions are intact etc
                    I think 2,800 is a pretty healthy number.
                     
                    The fact that 72% voted against me would be the real
                    concern - that's hardly a family I'd want to be a part of.
                     
                     
                    multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:
                    Jeff wrote:

                    If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
                    be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.

                    My Reply:

                    Yeah – I hear ya' -- and I think you make
                    a good point in this food for thought about
                    what could be the initial emotional responses
                    that anyone would feel after having been
                    treated in what is so clearly an unfair way.

                    That having been said, I feel I have to add that
                    I also tend to wonder if -- since it appears that
                    so many of these Freedmen grew up largely in
                    the culture (language, food, region, history, outlook,
                    struggle, identity, etc.) only of the Cherokee Nation
                    – it may be the only culture they feel they 'really' know
                    and, thus, I wonder if they would have a hard time letting
                    go of their multi-generational cultural and family ties and trying
                    to become independent of them and the Nation as a whole.

                    Also – after centuries of struggling as `part of the
                    Cherokee Nation' I wonder if branching out on
                    their own would make them feel that their past
                    efforts and those of their ancestors was in vain.

                    It kind of reminds me of when the people who were
                    of the
                    African-American (AA) Ethnic group were able  
                    to go to places like France, in larger numbers, during
                    and after World War I – wherein they were said to
                    have been treated a lot better than they were treated
                    in The States – but, due to what they and their
                    ancestors had struggled for in the States, they
                    were generally not willing to give up their
                    American citizenship and move-on elsewhere.

                    Most decided to return to and remain in the States and to
                    work to try to obtain equal rights, protection, participation,
                    treatment and citizenry in the country – and this drive is
                    part of what led to the American Civil Rights Movement 
                    which provided these benefits to both the
                    AAs and 
                    other citizens and residents of the country as well.


                    It seems that there is something about those cultural, 
                    historical and familial ties that cause people to just
                    want to lay claim to what is clearly rightfully theirs.

                    Just a thought.

                    Have a great day.

                    -- M

                    Related Links:


                    http://www.afrigene as.com/forume/ index.cgi? noframes; read=9923
                    http://news. newamericamedia. org/news/ view_article. html?article_ id=875400ddf2fb8 fcadc8910f36e174 e8a 
                    http://www.freedmen 5tribes.com/ History.htm
                    http://www.freedmen 5tribes.com/



                    j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                    If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
                    be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.


                    multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@hotmail. com> wrote:



                    That's true ... Jeff!

                    You do have a good knack for looking at all
                    sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.:)

                    As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'. :-?

                    --- M



                     j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                    I guess many might have thought they were
                    those "long lost relatives" wanting
                    to cash in regardless of the truth.
                    I dont support their decision but I
                    guess I'm just trying to see all sides.


                    'multiracialbookclu b'  wrote:


                    Jeff wrote:


                    <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                    if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                    with no indian identity, experience or interest
                    who wanted their entitled share.">>>



                    My reply:


                    Hi Jeff,

                    Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
                    always appreciated and is good food for thought.

                    The only problem here, however, is that
                    this analogy does not apply to the
                    situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

                    The majority of The Freedmen have
                    been repeatedly proven to be the known
                    Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
                    'descendents of the people who were originally
                    slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
                    era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
                    became members of and absorbed into the
                    tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
                    became referred to as being The Freedmen.

                    Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
                    lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
                    have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
                    heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

                    As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
                    a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
                    certainly have more connection to and shared
                    heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
                    of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
                    up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
                    'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
                    family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
                    other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
                    and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
                    or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

                    Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
                    'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
                    the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
                    of the tribe and they have shared in little or
                    none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
                    'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
                    realized that casino money could be involved.

                    Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
                    in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
                    Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
                    largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

                    Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
                    -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
                    (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
                    thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
                    order to, yet again, deny the people who have
                    any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
                    the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

                    It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
                    -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
                    caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
                    step against the very Freedmen who have been
                    an active, important and functioning part of 
                    the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

                    The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
                    long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
                    up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
                    of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

                    They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
                    full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
                    not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
                    and racism-embracing acceptance of the
                    racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
                    to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
                    (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
                    -- would never have even been an issue.

                    The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
                    in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
                    is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
                    that which was taken by White-Supremacist
                    Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

                    Just a thought.
                    Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

                    --M


                    P.S.

                    A good book and film on the subject
                    of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
                    'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


                    Related Links:

                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562 



                     j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                    Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
                    just joined since it appears that there were only
                    800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

                    I guess it's also another "invalidation"
                    of
                    African-Americans historical
                    Native-American ties and lineage.

                    But I think besides racism
                    it also came down to greed.

                    But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                    if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                    with no indian identity, experience or
                    interest who wanted their entitled share.

                    This is just one reason why I have no real interest
                    in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
                    because I'm sure one would really have to jump
                    through hoops in what is basically a political process.

                    Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
                    it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

                    So many of us are of indian descent
                    but will never have the "right" to
                    claim it in this society without recieving
                    snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
                    without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


                    lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


                    Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


                    Cherokee Nation members voted
                    Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
                    the tribal citizenship of the
                    descendants of the people the
                    Cherokee once owned as slaves.



                    http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/


                    Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.

                  • j s
                    Plus they base their membership on records made by White government workers, kind of like some blacks today accepting the slave masters one-drop rule. It s
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                      Plus they base their membership on records
                      made by White government workers, kind
                      of like some "blacks" today accepting
                      the slave masters one-drop rule.

                      It's all about money I think.

                      Not my kind of club.

                      Heather Stimmel <heather21230@...> wrote:

                      Yeah, I have to agree! This is ridiculous and, like Multi, I tend
                      to think it is out of racist attitudes that this is happening.
                      I remember reading on their website (Cherokee) the qualifications
                      you need to be officially registered within the Cherokee tribe,
                      so this is not really a shock to me (but, in a way, it is).
                      The site says if you cannot prove (within a certain fraction-
                      can't remember what it was, but it seemed a little ridiculous
                      at the time) that you are a certain (fractional) amount Cherokee
                      Indian, than they will not officially recognize a person as a Cherokee.
                      The reason I know this is, because... my son
                      is part Cherokee, as am I (or, so I'm told).
                      I've done quite a bit of research on this subject, to little avail.
                      It's almost unconscionable (sp?) that they can actually "expel"
                      members they officially accepted as "genuine" at some point in history!
                      That's what I don't get???!
                      Heather

                      Related Link:

                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2566

                    • multiracialbookclub
                      More on the Freedmen s struggle: Related Links: http://www.rachelstavern.com http://www.snowwowl.com/hhcherokeefreedmen.html
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                        More on the Freedmen's struggle:

                        Related Links:

                        http://www.rachelstavern.com  
                        http://www.snowwowl.com/hhcherokeefreedmen.html
                        http://www.freedmenconference.com
                        http://www.cornsilks.com/davidswords.html 


                        "multiracialbookclub" <soaptalk@...> wrote:


                        Jeff wrote:

                        If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
                        be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.


                        My Reply:

                        Yeah – I hear ya' -- and I think you make
                        a good point in this food for thought about
                        what could be the initial emotional responses
                        that anyone would feel after having been
                        treated in what is so clearly an unfair way.

                        That having been said, I feel I have to add that
                        I also tend to wonder if -- since it appears that
                        so many of these Freedmen grew up largely in
                        the culture (language, food, region, history, outlook,
                        struggle, identity, etc.) only of the Cherokee Nation
                        – it may be the only culture they feel they 'really' know
                        and, thus, I wonder if they would have a hard time letting
                        go of their multi-generational cultural and family ties and trying
                        to become independent of them and the Nation as a whole.

                        Also – after centuries of struggling as `part of the
                        Cherokee Nation' I wonder if branching out on
                        their own would make them feel that their past
                        efforts and those of their ancestors was in vain.

                        It kind of reminds me of when the people who were
                        of the
                        African-American (AA) Ethnic group were able  
                        to go to places like France, in larger numbers, during
                        and after World War I – wherein they were said to
                        have been treated a lot better than they were treated
                        in The States – but, due to what they and their
                        ancestors had struggled for in the States, they
                        were generally not willing to give up their
                        American citizenship and move-on elsewhere.

                        Most decided to return to and remain in the States and to
                        work to try to obtain equal rights, protection, participation,
                        treatment and citizenry in the country – and this drive is
                        part of what led to the American Civil Rights Movement 
                        which provided these benefits to both the
                        AAs and 
                        other citizens and residents of the country as well.


                        It seems that there is something about those cultural, 
                        historical and familial ties that cause people to just
                        want to lay claim to what is clearly rightfully theirs.

                        Just a thought.

                        Have a great day.

                        -- M

                        Related Links:


                        http://www.afrigeneas.com/forume/index.cgi?noframes;read=9923
                        http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=875400ddf2fb8fcadc8910f36e174e8a 
                        http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/History.htm
                        http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/



                        j s <creolescience@...> wrote:


                        If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
                        be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.


                        multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:



                        That's true ... Jeff!

                        You do have a good knack for looking at all
                        sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.:)

                        As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'. :-?

                        --- M



                         j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                        I guess many might have thought they were
                        those "long lost relatives" wanting
                        to cash in regardless of the truth.
                        I dont support their decision but I
                        guess I'm just trying to see all sides.


                        multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:


                        Jeff wrote:


                        <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                        if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                        with no indian identity, experience or interest
                        who wanted their entitled share.">>>



                        My reply:


                        Hi Jeff,

                        Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
                        always appreciated and is good food for thought.

                        The only problem here, however, is that
                        this analogy does not apply to the
                        situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

                        The majority of The Freedmen have
                        been repeatedly proven to be the known
                        Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
                        'descendents of the people who were originally
                        slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
                        era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
                        became members of and absorbed into the
                        tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
                        became referred to as being The Freedmen.

                        Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
                        lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
                        have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
                        heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

                        As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
                        a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
                        certainly have more connection to and shared
                        heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
                        of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
                        up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
                        'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
                        family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
                        other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
                        and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
                        or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

                        Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
                        'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
                        the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
                        of the tribe and they have shared in little or
                        none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
                        'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
                        realized that casino money could be involved.

                        Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
                        in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
                        Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
                        largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

                        Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
                        -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
                        (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
                        thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
                        order to, yet again, deny the people who have
                        any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
                        the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

                        It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
                        -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
                        caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
                        step against the very Freedmen who have been
                        an active, important and functioning part of 
                        the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

                        The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
                        long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
                        up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
                        of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

                        They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
                        full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
                        not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
                        and racism-embracing acceptance of the
                        racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
                        to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
                        (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
                        -- would never have even been an issue.

                        The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
                        in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
                        is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
                        that which was taken by White-Supremacist
                        Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

                        Just a thought.
                        Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

                        --M


                        P.S.

                        A good book and film on the subject
                        of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
                        'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


                        Related Links:

                        http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
                        http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
                        http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
                        http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562 



                         j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                        Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
                        just joined since it appears that there were only
                        800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

                        I guess it's also another "invalidation"
                        of
                        African-Americans historical
                        Native-American ties and lineage.

                        But I think besides racism
                        it also came down to greed.

                        But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                        if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                        with no indian identity, experience or
                        interest who wanted their entitled share.

                        This is just one reason why I have no real interest
                        in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
                        because I'm sure one would really have to jump
                        through hoops in what is basically a political process.

                        Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
                        it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

                        So many of us are of indian descent
                        but will never have the "right" to
                        claim it in this society without recieving
                        snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
                        without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


                        lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


                        Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


                        Cherokee Nation members voted
                        Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
                        the tribal citizenship of the
                        descendants of the people the
                        Cherokee once owned as slaves.



                        http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/
                      • multiracialbookclub
                        True -- the Nation certainly doesn t seem to really try to make anyone (or should I say certain ones ) want to be a member of the club or one of the
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                          True -- the 'Nation' certainly doesn't seem to really try to
                          make anyone (or should I say 'certain ones') want to be a
                          'member of the club' or 'one of the family' -- so to speak.



                          j s <creolescience@...> wrote:


                          I guess since I recall the article said
                          that about 2,000 had just signed up last year I
                          wonder about their closeness to the tribal ways.
                          I feel worse for the 800 who had been members so long.
                          Still, if the traditions are intact etc
                          I think 2,800 is a pretty healthy number.
                           
                          The fact that 72% voted against me would be the real
                          concern - that's hardly a family I'd want to be a part of.
                           

                          multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:


                          Jeff wrote:


                          If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
                          be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.

                          My Reply:

                          Yeah – I hear ya' -- and I think you make
                          a good point in this food for thought about
                          what could be the initial emotional responses
                          that anyone would feel after having been
                          treated in what is so clearly an unfair way.

                          That having been said, I feel I have to add that
                          I also tend to wonder if -- since it appears that
                          so many of these Freedmen grew up largely in
                          the culture (language, food, region, history, outlook,
                          struggle, identity, etc.) only of the Cherokee Nation
                          – it may be the only culture they feel they 'really' know
                          and, thus, I wonder if they would have a hard time letting
                          go of their multi-generational cultural and family ties and trying
                          to become independent of them and the Nation as a whole.

                          Also – after centuries of struggling as `part of the
                          Cherokee Nation' I wonder if branching out on
                          their own would make them feel that their past
                          efforts and those of their ancestors was in vain.

                          It kind of reminds me of when the people who were
                          of the
                          African-American (AA) Ethnic group were able  
                          to go to places like France, in larger numbers, during
                          and after World War I – wherein they were said to
                          have been treated a lot better than they were treated
                          in The States – but, due to what they and their
                          ancestors had struggled for in the States, they
                          were generally not willing to give up their
                          American citizenship and move-on elsewhere.

                          Most decided to return to and remain in the States and to
                          work to try to obtain equal rights, protection, participation,
                          treatment and citizenry in the country – and this drive is
                          part of what led to the American Civil Rights Movement 
                          which provided these benefits to both the
                          AAs and 
                          other citizens and residents of the country as well.


                          It seems that there is something about those cultural, 
                          historical and familial ties that cause people to just
                          want to lay claim to what is clearly rightfully theirs.

                          Just a thought.

                          Have a great day.

                          -- M

                          Related Links:


                          http://www.afrigene as.com/forume/ index.cgi? noframes; read=9923
                          http://news. newamericamedia. org/news/ view_article. html?article_ id=875400ddf2fb8 fcadc8910f36e174 e8a 
                          http://www.freedmen 5tribes.com/ History.htm
                          http://www.freedmen 5tribes.com/



                          j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                          If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
                          be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.

                          multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@hotmail. com> wrote:


                          That's true ... Jeff!

                          You do have a good knack for looking at all
                          sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.:)

                          As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'. :-?

                          --- M



                           j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                          I guess many might have thought they were
                          those "long lost relatives" wanting
                          to cash in regardless of the truth.
                          I dont support their decision but I
                          guess I'm just trying to see all sides.


                          multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:


                          Jeff wrote:


                          <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                          if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                          with no indian identity, experience or interest
                          who wanted their entitled share.">>>



                          My reply:


                          Hi Jeff,

                          Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
                          always appreciated and is good food for thought.

                          The only problem here, however, is that
                          this analogy does not apply to the
                          situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

                          The majority of The Freedmen have
                          been repeatedly proven to be the known
                          Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
                          'descendents of the people who were originally
                          slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
                          era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
                          became members of and absorbed into the
                          tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
                          became referred to as being The Freedmen.

                          Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
                          lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
                          have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
                          heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

                          As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
                          a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
                          certainly have more connection to and shared
                          heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
                          of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
                          up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
                          'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
                          family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
                          other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
                          and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
                          or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

                          Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
                          'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
                          the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
                          of the tribe and they have shared in little or
                          none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
                          'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
                          realized that casino money could be involved.

                          Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
                          in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
                          Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
                          largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

                          Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
                          -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
                          (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
                          thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
                          order to, yet again, deny the people who have
                          any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
                          the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

                          It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
                          -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
                          caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
                          step against the very Freedmen who have been
                          an active, important and functioning part of 
                          the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

                          The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
                          long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
                          up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
                          of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

                          They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
                          full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
                          not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
                          and racism-embracing acceptance of the
                          racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
                          to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
                          (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
                          -- would never have even been an issue.

                          The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
                          in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
                          is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
                          that which was taken by White-Supremacist
                          Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

                          Just a thought.
                          Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

                          --M


                          P.S.

                          A good book and film on the subject
                          of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
                          'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


                          Related Links:

                          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
                          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
                          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
                          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562 



                           j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                          Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
                          just joined since it appears that there were only
                          800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

                          I guess it's also another "invalidation"
                          of
                          African-Americans historical
                          Native-American ties and lineage.

                          But I think besides racism
                          it also came down to greed.

                          But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                          if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                          with no indian identity, experience or
                          interest who wanted their entitled share.

                          This is just one reason why I have no real interest
                          in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
                          because I'm sure one would really have to jump
                          through hoops in what is basically a political process.

                          Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
                          it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

                          So many of us are of indian descent
                          but will never have the "right" to
                          claim it in this society without recieving
                          snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
                          without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


                          lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


                          Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


                          Cherokee Nation members voted
                          Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
                          the tribal citizenship of the
                          descendants of the people the
                          Cherokee once owned as slaves.



                          http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/
                        • Heather
                          ...nor mine=) Heather In Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com, j s wrote: Plus they base their membership on records made by White government
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                            ...nor mine=) Heather




                            In Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com,
                            j s <creolescience@...> wrote:



                            Plus they base their membership on records
                            made by White government workers, kind
                            of like some "blacks" today accepting
                            the slave masters one-drop rule.
                            It's all about money I think.

                            Not my kind of club.



                            Heather Stimmel <heather21230@...> wrote:



                            Yeah, I have to agree!

                            This is ridiculous and, like Multi, I tend to think
                            it is out of racist attitudes that this is happening.
                            I remember reading on their website (Cherokee)
                            the qualifications you need to be officially
                            registered within the Cherokee tribe, so this is
                            not really a shock to me (but, in a way, it is).
                            The site says if you cannot prove (within a certain
                            fraction- can't remember what it was, but it
                            seemed a little ridiculous at the time) that
                            you are a certain (fractional) amount Cherokee
                            Indian, than they will not officially
                            recognize a person as a Cherokee.
                            The reason I know this is, because... my son
                            is part Cherokee, as am I (or, so I'm told).
                            I've done quite a bit of research
                            on this subject, to little avail.
                            It's almost unconscionable (sp?) that they
                            can actually "expel" members they officially
                            accepted as "genuine" at some point in history!
                            That's what I don't get???!
                            Heather

                            Related Link:

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/2566
                          • Heather
                            Multi- Thanks for the clarification, regarding the Freedmen! I think I get it now. It makes a whole lot more sense now. I don t know, in the past, how things
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                              Multi- Thanks for the clarification, regarding the Freedmen!
                              I think I "get it" now. It makes a whole lot more sense now.

                              I don't know, in the past, how things have been as far as
                              mixed "White" Amerindians ... but, the last I checked,
                              everyone claiming Cherokee heritage (whatever their
                              Mixture- "black, white," etc.), EVERYONE has to prove it.
                              Certainly, that may not be the case.
                              All I know is what I read on their website and the
                              application for "admittance" into the Cherokee Nation.
                              Who knows whether that's truly the case or not.

                              I'm just as confused, and mystified,
                              by this as everyone else?!

                              Why "admit" ANYONE, then later "revoke" their admittance?

                              Doesn't make a lot of sense to me???!

                              Heather




                              multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:



                              True -- the 'Nation' certainly doesn't seem
                              to really try to make anyone (or should I say
                              'certain ones') want to be a 'member of the
                              club' or 'one of the family' -- so to speak.




                              j s <creolescience@...> wrote:



                              I guess since I recall the article said that
                              about 2,000 had just signed up last year I
                              wonder about their closeness to the tribal ways.

                              I feel worse for the 800 who had been members so long.

                              Still, if the traditions are intact etc
                              I think 2,800 is a pretty healthy number.

                              The fact that 72% voted against me would be the real
                              concern - that's hardly a family I'd want to be a part of.




                              multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:




                              <<<Jeff wrote:

                              "If I was a freedman's descendant
                              I think I would no longer want
                              to be affiliated with the tribe
                              anyway after such a slap in the face.">>>


                              My Reply:


                              Yeah – I hear ya' -- and I think you make
                              a good point in this food for thought about
                              what could be the initial emotional responses
                              that anyone would feel after having been
                              treated in what is so clearly an unfair way.

                              That having been said, I feel I have to add that
                              I also tend to wonder if -- since it appears that
                              so many of these Freedmen grew up largely in
                              the culture (language, food, region, history, outlook,
                              struggle, identity, etc.) only of the Cherokee Nation
                              – it may be the only culture they feel they 'really' know
                              and, thus, I wonder if they would have a hard time letting
                              go of their multi-generational cultural and family ties and
                              trying to become independent of them and the Nation as a whole.

                              Also – after centuries of struggling as `part of the
                              Cherokee Nation' I wonder if branching out on
                              their own would make them feel that their past
                              efforts and those of their ancestors was in vain.

                              It kind of reminds me of when the people who were
                              of the African-American (AA) Ethnic group were able
                              to go to places like France, in larger numbers, during
                              and after World War I – wherein they were said to
                              have been treated a lot better than they were treated
                              in The States – but, due to what they and their
                              ancestors had struggled for in the States, they
                              were generally not willing to give up their
                              American citizenship and move-on elsewhere.

                              Most decided to return to and remain in the States and to
                              work to try to obtain equal rights, protection, participation,
                              treatment and citizenry in the country – and this drive is
                              part of what led to the American Civil Rights Movement
                              which provided these benefits to both the AAs and
                              other citizens and residents of the country as well.

                              It seems that there is something about those cultural,
                              historical and familial ties that cause people to just
                              want to lay claim to what is clearly rightfully theirs.

                              Just a thought.

                              Have a great day.

                              -- M

                              Related Links:

                              http://www.afrigeneas.com/forume/index.cgi?noframes;read=9923
                              http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=875400ddf2fb8fcadc8910f36e174e8a
                              http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/History.htm
                              http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/




                              j s <creolescience@...> wrote:




                              If I was a freedman's descendant
                              I think I would no longer want
                              to be affiliated with the tribe
                              anyway after such a slap in the face.



                              multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:




                              That's true ... Jeff!

                              You do have a good knack for looking at all
                              sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.

                              As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'.

                              --- M




                              j s <creolescience@...> wrote:




                              I guess many might have thought they were
                              those "long lost relatives" wanting
                              to cash in regardless of the truth.
                              I dont support their decision but I
                              guess I'm just trying to see all sides.




                              multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:




                              <<<Jeff wrote:

                              "But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                              if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                              with no indian identity, experience or interest
                              who wanted their entitled share.">>>


                              My reply:


                              Hi Jeff,

                              Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
                              always appreciated and is good food for thought.

                              The only problem here, however, is that
                              this analogy does not apply to the
                              situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

                              The majority of The Freedmen have
                              been repeatedly proven to be the known
                              Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
                              'descendents of the people who were originally
                              slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
                              era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves
                              became members of and absorbed into the
                              tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
                              became referred to as being The Freedmen.

                              Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
                              lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
                              have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
                              heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

                              As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
                              a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and
                              certainly have more connection to and shared
                              heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
                              of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
                              up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
                              'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
                              family legend, an old photograph, etc. -- with no
                              other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
                              and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
                              or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation').

                              Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
                              'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
                              the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
                              of the tribe and they have shared in little or
                              none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
                              'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
                              realized that casino money could be involved.

                              Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
                              in places like Oklahoma) have 'full' proof of their
                              Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
                              largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

                              Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
                              -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
                              (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
                              thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
                              order to, yet again, deny the people who have
                              any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
                              the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

                              It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
                              -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
                              caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
                              step against the very Freedmen who have been
                              an active, important and functioning part of
                              the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

                              The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
                              long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
                              up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
                              of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

                              They are a centuries-old, generations-spanning
                              full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
                              not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
                              and racism-embracing acceptance of the
                              racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
                              to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
                              (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
                              -- would never have even been an issue.

                              The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
                              in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
                              is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
                              that which was taken by White-Supremacist
                              Walter Plecker in Virginia in the 1920's.

                              Just a thought.
                              Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

                              --M


                              P.S.

                              A good book and film on the subject
                              of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
                              'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz

                              Related Links:

                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1386
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1747
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1400
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/2562





                              j s <creolescience@...> wrote:




                              Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
                              just joined since it appears that there were only
                              800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

                              I guess it's also another "invalidation"
                              of African-Americans historical
                              Native-American ties and lineage.

                              But I think besides racism
                              it also came down to greed.

                              But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                              if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                              with no indian identity, experience or
                              interest who wanted their entitled share.

                              This is just one reason why I have no real interest
                              in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
                              because I'm sure one would really have to jump
                              through hoops in what is basically a political process.

                              Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
                              it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

                              So many of us are of indian descent
                              but will never have the "right" to
                              claim it in this society without recieving
                              snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
                              without the pedirgee of tribal membership.




                              lbaker <tlbaker@...> wrote:




                              Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


                              Cherokee Nation members voted
                              Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
                              the tribal citizenship of the
                              descendants of the people the
                              Cherokee once owned as slaves.


                              http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17442676/from/ET/
                            • multiracialbookclub
                              You are welcomed Heather and I just wanted to reiterate that ... The issue is not really a matter of having the Freedmen prove themselves to have any
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007

                                You are welcomed Heather and
                                I just wanted to reiterate that ...

                                The issue is not really a matter of having the
                                Freedmen 'prove' themselves to have any
                                'particular amount' of Cherokee / Amerindian
                                admixture --- as the Cherokee Nation leaders
                                admit that they are more than aware that most
                                of the Freedmen have a lineage of at least
                                25%-50% Amerindian / Cherokee and also
                                admit that they are aware that almost all of
                                the Freedman have been continually reared
                                solely or predominantly in the culture of the
                                Cherokee Nation -- for multiple generations.

                                In fact, the Mixed-Race (Black/ Amerindian)
                                `Freedmen` Cherokee have been an open,
                                active and completely functioning part of the
                                Cherokee Nation for more than 150 years.

                                In the past – there was no problem with the
                                Cherokee Nation acknowledging both that
                                the Freedmen where their Bloodline-brethren
                                and that they shared in the same history
                                and continual cultural ties as well.

                                In fact, in the past, the only problem,
                                was that the Federal government
                                (
                                while having no problem acknowledging
                                the Mixed-Race Cherokee who were of
                                White / Amerindian lineage as being of the
                                Cherokee Nation – no matter how `little'
                                Cherokee / Amerindian blood they had
                                ) ----
                                utterly refused to acknowledge the Mixed-Race
                                Cherokee who were of Black / Amerindian lineage
                                as being of the Cherokee Nation – no matter how
                                `much' Cherokee / Amerindian blood they had
                                -- and, instead, assigned them to a "separate"
                                (and clearly, not "equal") membership Roll
                                that was referred to as the `Freedmen' Roll.

                                Prior to the racism-based and greed-inspired politics
                                which sprouted up among some of the members of the
                                Cherokee Nation and it's tribes, of late – the Cherokee had
                                openly accepted their Mixed-Race `Freedmen' brethren
                                who were of Black / Amerindian ancestry and openly felt
                                that the One-Droppist "racial-division" -- implemented
                                by the Dawes Commission and it's "separate" Rolls --
                                was both unfair and intended to be used as a dirty
                                trick to try to further divide and conquer the Nation
                                (
                                particularly since it was well-known by all parties
                                that most of the Black / Amerindian Mixed-Race
                                people that were found on the `Freedman' Dawes
                                Rolls had far more `Cherokee Ancestry' than most
                                of White / Amerindian Mixed-Race people that
                                were found on the `By-Blood' Dawes Roll
                                s).

                                Thus, as stated, the matter of being able to `prove' that
                                they had a `given' amount of Cherokee / Amerindian
                                lineage really wasn't the issue for the Mixed-Race
                                Black / Amerindian `Freedmen' – so much as their
                                struggle of finding themselves initially facing a
                                Federal government imposed "segregation" of
                                being on `separate' Rolls from their brethren
                                (
                                no matter how `much' Cherokee blood they had)
                                --- then later having these racist, discriminatory
                                Dawes Commission Rolls being used against them
                                (
                                by the very same brethren who they had
                                struggled alongside for more than 150 years
                                )
                                to kick them out of their own Nation and
                                out of the only culture that most of these
                                Mixed-Race people have ever known.

                                The issue really seems to center more around the
                                fact that … in an greed-based and racism-inspired
                                effort to remove the Mixed-Race Freedmen
                                (i.e. Cherokee who are of part-Black lineage; whose
                                ancestors were former slaves of the Cherokee Nation;
                                and who, after the Civil War became Freedmen and
                                absorbed – "racially" and culturally -- into the tribe)

                                from being recognized and acknowledged as being
                                full-fledged members of the tribe and citizens
                                of the Cherokee Nation
                                (with all the rights that
                                would come along with it)
                                the leadership actually
                                utilized the very same racist, `Dawes Rolls'
                                (
                                created by the Dawes commission via
                                application of the racist One-Drop Rule
                                )
                                that they had formerly protested and simply
                                `proclaimed' (
                                and later 'voted') that anyone
                                whose family was listed on the Freedman's Roll
                                 (
                                no matter how little `Black' ancestry and how
                                much Amerindian ancestry
                                ) would no longer be
                                recognized as a member of the Cherokee Nation.

                                The Dawes Rolls consisted
                                of two (2) separate Rolls:

                                ***  The `By-Blood' Cherokee Roll
                                contained the names of those people
                                who were either full-Amerindian or  
                                the Mixed-Race people who were
                                part-Amerindian and part-White
                                (
                                no matter how `little' Amerindian
                                blood or how `much' White blood
                                )

                                ***  The `Freedmen' Cherokee Roll
                                contained only names of those people
                                who were of some part-Black lineage and
                                also included all Mixed-Race people who
                                were part-Amerindian and part-Black
                                (
                                no matter how `much' Amerindian
                                blood or how `little' Black' blood
                                ).

                                Many of the Mixed-Race White / Amerindian
                                people found on the `By-Blood' Rolls have
                                'far, far less than' 25% Cherokee lineage.

                                Many of the Mixed-Race Black / Amerindian
                                people found on the `Freedmen Rolls actually
                                have `no less than' 25% Cherokee lineage
                                (many have 50% or more Cherokee lineage).

                                For political reasons -- based in greed and
                                racial discrimination – only the people
                                whose names were found on the
                                'Freedman' Roll (
                                no matter if they had
                                25%, 50%, 75%, etc. Cherokee blood
                                )
                                were `Expelled' from the Cherokee Nation.

                                Here they (
                                most of them) share a far greater
                                amount of Blood-lineage and far stronger
                                continual cultural ties to the Cherokee
                                Nation – than do the "white"-Cherokee
                                (which compose the majority of the
                                members which expelled them
                                ) – yet, they
                                and their +150 year old history with and
                                both "racial" and `cultural' connection
                                to their own Nation, were 'annihilated'
                                (via documentary-genocide) with one
                                racist vote – based on using a racist
                                system (
                                The Dawes Commission Rolls)
                                that was created years ago with the
                                intent of destroying the unity and the
                                political power of the Cherokee Nation.




                                "Heather" <heather21230@...> wrote:



                                Multi- Thanks for the clarification, regarding the Freedmen!
                                I think I "get it" now. It makes a whole lot more sense now.

                                I don't know, in the past, how things have been as far as
                                mixed "White" Amerindians ... but, the last I checked,
                                everyone claiming Cherokee heritage (whatever their
                                Mixture- "black, white," etc.), EVERYONE has to prove it. 
                                Certainly, that may not be the case. All I know is
                                what I read on their website and the application
                                for "admittance" into the Cherokee Nation.
                                Who knows whether that's truly the case or not.

                                I'm just as confused, and mystified,
                                by this as everyone else?!

                                Why "admit" ANYONE, then
                                later "revoke" their admittance?

                                Doesn't make a lot of sense to me???!


                                Heather




                                multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:


                                True -- the 'Nation' certainly doesn't seem to really try to
                                make anyone (or should I say 'certain ones') want to be a
                                'member of the club' or 'one of the family' -- so to speak.


                                j s <creolescience@...> wrote:


                                I guess since I recall the article said
                                that about 2,000 had just signed up last year I
                                wonder about their closeness to the tribal ways.
                                I feel worse for the 800 who had been members so long.
                                Still, if the traditions are intact etc
                                I think 2,800 is a pretty healthy number.

                                The fact that 72% voted against me would be the real
                                concern - that's hardly a family I'd want to be a part of.



                                multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:


                                <<<Jeff wrote:

                                "If I was a freedman's descendant I think I
                                would no longer want to be affiliated with
                                the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.">>>



                                My Reply:

                                Yeah – I hear ya' -- and I think you make
                                a good point in this food for thought about
                                what could be the initial emotional responses
                                that anyone would feel after having been
                                treated in what is so clearly an unfair way.

                                That having been said, I feel I have to add that
                                I also tend to wonder if -- since it appears that
                                so many of these Freedmen grew up largely in
                                the culture (language, food, region, history, outlook,
                                struggle, identity, etc.) only of the Cherokee Nation
                                – it may be the only culture they feel they 'really' know
                                and, thus, I wonder if they would have a hard time letting
                                go of their multi-generational cultural and family ties and trying
                                to become independent of them and the Nation as a whole.

                                Also – after centuries of struggling as `part of the
                                Cherokee Nation' I wonder if branching out on
                                their own would make them feel that their past
                                efforts and those of their ancestors was in vain.

                                It kind of reminds me of when the people who were
                                of the African-American (AA) Ethnic group were able  
                                to go to places like France, in larger numbers, during
                                and after World War I – wherein they were said to
                                have been treated a lot better than they were treated
                                in The States – but, due to what they and their
                                ancestors had struggled for in the States, they
                                were generally not willing to give up their
                                American citizenship and move-on elsewhere.

                                Most decided to return to and remain in the States and to
                                work to try to obtain equal rights, protection, participation,
                                treatment and citizenry in the country – and this drive is
                                part of what led to the American Civil Rights Movement 
                                which provided these benefits to both the AAs and 
                                other citizens and residents of the country as well.


                                It seems that there is something about those cultural, 
                                historical and familial ties that cause people to just
                                want to lay claim to what is clearly rightfully theirs.

                                Just a thought.

                                Have a great day.

                                -- M

                                Related Links:


                                http://www.afrigeneas.com/forume/index.cgi?noframes;read=9923
                                http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=875400ddf2fb8fcadc8910f36e174e8a 
                                http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/History.htm
                                http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/




                                j s <creolescience@...> wrote:



                                If I was a freedman's descendant I think
                                I would no longer want to be affiliated with
                                the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.



                                multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:



                                That's true ... Jeff!

                                You do have a good knack for looking at all
                                sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.

                                As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'.

                                --- M




                                 j s <creolescience@...> wrote:



                                I guess many might have thought they were
                                those "long lost relatives" wanting
                                to cash in regardless of the truth.
                                I dont support their decision but I
                                guess I'm just trying to see all sides.



                                multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:



                                Jeff wrote:




                                <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                                if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                                with no indian identity, experience or interest
                                who wanted their entitled share.">>>



                                My reply:


                                Hi Jeff,

                                Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
                                always appreciated and is good food for thought.

                                The only problem here, however, is that
                                this analogy does not apply to the
                                situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

                                The majority of The Freedmen have
                                been repeatedly proven to be the known
                                Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
                                'descendents of the people who were originally
                                slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
                                era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
                                became members of and absorbed into the
                                tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
                                became referred to as being The Freedmen.

                                Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
                                lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
                                have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
                                heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

                                As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
                                a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
                                certainly have more connection to and shared
                                heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
                                of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
                                up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
                                'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
                                family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
                                other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
                                and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
                                or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation').

                                Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
                                'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
                                the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
                                of the tribe and they have shared in little or
                                none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
                                'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
                                realized that casino money could be involved.

                                Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
                                in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
                                Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
                                largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

                                Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
                                -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
                                (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
                                thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
                                order to, yet again, deny the people who have
                                any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
                                the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

                                It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
                                -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
                                caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
                                step against the very Freedmen who have been
                                an active, important and functioning part of 
                                the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

                                The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
                                long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
                                up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
                                of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

                                They are a centuries-old, generations-spanning
                                full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
                                not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
                                and racism-embracing acceptance of the
                                racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
                                to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
                                (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
                                -- would never have even been an issue.

                                The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
                                in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
                                is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
                                that which was taken by White-Supremacist
                                Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

                                Just a thought.
                                Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

                                --M


                                P.S.

                                A good book and film on the subject
                                of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
                                'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


                                Related Links:

                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1386  
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1747
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1400
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/2562 



                                 j s <creolescience@...> wrote:



                                Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
                                just joined since it appears that there were only
                                800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

                                I guess it's also another "invalidation"
                                of
                                African-Americans historical
                                Native-American ties and lineage.

                                But I think besides racism
                                it also came down to greed.

                                But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                                if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                                with no indian identity, experience or
                                interest who wanted their entitled share.

                                This is just one reason why I have no real interest
                                in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
                                because I'm sure one would really have to jump
                                through hoops in what is basically a political process.

                                Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
                                it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

                                So many of us are of indian descent
                                but will never have the "right" to
                                claim it in this society without recieving
                                snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
                                without the pedirgee of tribal membership.




                                lbaker <tlbaker@...> wrote:




                                Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


                                Cherokee Nation members voted
                                Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
                                the tribal citizenship of the
                                descendants of the people the
                                Cherokee once owned as slaves.



                                http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17442676/from/ET/
                              • wintyreeve@aol.com
                                Hello Friends, Lots to say on this topic! Its great hearing from everyone--and getting your thoughts. I went to see a Lakota medicine man speak on Saturday, he
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                                  Hello Friends,


                                  Lots to say on this topic! Its great hearing
                                  from everyone--and getting your thoughts.


                                  I went to see a Lakota medicine man
                                  speak on Saturday, he is racially mixed.
                                  I think he said he was Scotch and Lakota.
                                  I listened to the medicine man speak,
                                  and was respectful ... but was rather
                                  offended by a remark he made.
                                  The medicine man was talking about
                                  how large some tribes are said,
                                  "Anyone can be a Cherokee these days."
                                  If that was true--then why don't we
                                  have a United States of Cherokee?
                                  And is it your business to judge someone else --
                                  to make the decision as an outsider, someone
                                  who has no idea what has happened in
                                  each person's individual life, their ancestry?


                                  My family is Cherokee--and I don't feel I have to
                                  "prove" it. I feel a much larger responsibility to
                                  teach my children of their heritage, and to teach
                                  them to remember all that has been lost.
                                  Family stories tell of a town in
                                  Alabama called "Bear Creek" where my
                                  grandmother, and her people came from.
                                  That town does not exist anymore--it is gone.
                                  The Cherokee were forced out of Alabama
                                  into reservations or hiding, it was even
                                  dangerous to speak the language.
                                  Those who married into African-American
                                  families and assimilated into their community
                                  often led very difficult, impoverished lives.
                                  They were once free and then became croppers
                                  --called the "n" word and worse--forced to
                                  give up the life they knew, and accept
                                  less than what a pig would be given ...

                                  To live in these kind of conditions takes a warrior spirit.

                                  To pass on knowledge, even the little that
                                  exists, is carrying on the fight--is raising a fist.

                                  Now is the time to embrace
                                  your heritage, whatever it is.

                                  To reclaim your stories and pass
                                  them on to the next generations.

                                  Fight for your ancestors to be remembered
                                  -- fight for your recognition.

                                  I think it's time to send the message:
                                  �We're not going away� ...

                                  We are a free and strong people, who already
                                  has been bestowed our heritage by the Creator.

                                  We don't need you to give that to us.

                                  We know who we are--and we
                                  will live and die by our true identity.

                                  We won't allow someone else to take from us, the basic
                                  right of our existence ... to recreate our stories, our lives.

                                  We will take up the fight, not against our brothers
                                  and sisters but against the racism, bigotry, hatred and
                                  intolerance that has diseased our people like a cancer.

                                  This is an old battle, we all bear its scars.

                                  Its a battle that can be won with understanding and
                                  compassion--with acceptance of our diverse history
                                  -- and with determination to fight like a warrior, to
                                  carry on the legacy our ancestors left, to grit our teeth
                                  and take the battle face to face with the ugliness and
                                  hatred that has penetrated even those among us.

                                  And to look that spirit of intolerance
                                  in the eye and be able to say:
                                  �I am Cherokee�.
                                  Or I am (your nationality).

                                  And then you live your truth, and keep our fight
                                  going strong--as long as it takes to overcome.

                                  We will not live in the struggle, we
                                  live in the proud spirit of our ancestors.

                                  We embrace each day as a way to honor our
                                  unique heritage, our traditions, our journeys.

                                  And even amid the struggle, we hold our head high--
                                  knowing that our freedom has been won by warriors like
                                  these, and if we continue to stand for who we are, and
                                  stand united, much greater will be bestowed to us.

                                  Blessings~ Lynn
                                   
                                   



                                • tlbaker
                                  Yes, I was shocked to see this myself - we shall overcome someday, I hope... 8-( L. _____ From: Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007

                                    Yes, I was shocked to see this myself -
                                    we shall overcome someday, I hope... 8- (

                                     

                                    L.

                                     


                                    From: Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com
                                    On Behalf Of multiracialbookclub
                                    Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 12:41 AM
                                    To: Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'

                                     

                                    Hi Lynne,

                                    Thanks for sharing this update with us.

                                    This action the Cherokee Nation
                                    has taken is an absolute shock
                                    -- and also an outrage as well!

                                    Many of the articles that I have come across
                                    of late (that have been written by 'accepted'
                                    members of various Amerindian tribes)
                                    have openly noted that they felt 'racism' 
                                    may be a key factor in the action of their
                                    tribe either 'questioning' or 'not welcoming' 
                                    and (in some cases)  'straightout rejecting'
                                    the membership-requests of the petitioning
                                    'brethren' who were of any known amount
                                    of part-Black lineage ---- whereas those
                                    people who were of any known amount of
                                    part-White lineage were treated differently.

                                    Again -- I feel that what the Cherokee
                                    Nation has done here is just outrageous!

                                    -- M

                                    Listed below are links to a few posts on this same topic:

                                    Related Links:

                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1911
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/390
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/393

                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1564
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1910
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1570

                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/202
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/2240
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1745



                                    In Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com, "tlbaker" wrote:


                                    Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'

                                    Cherokee Nation members voted
                                    Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
                                    the tribal citizenship of the
                                    descendants of the people the
                                    Cherokee once owned as slaves.


                                    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17442676/from/ET/

                                  • tlbaker
                                    This could be true, still believe the decision is wrong. _____ From: Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of j s Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 2:10 PM To:
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 5, 2007

                                      This could be true, still believe the decision is wrong.

                                       


                                      From: Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com
                                      On Behalf Of j s
                                      Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 2:10 PM
                                      To: Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'

                                       

                                      I guess many might have thought they were
                                      those "long lost relatives" wanting
                                      to cash in regardless of the truth.
                                      I dont support their decision but I
                                      guess I'm just trying to see all sides.



                                      multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:



                                      Jeff wrote:

                                      <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                                      if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                                      with no indian identity, experience or interest
                                      who wanted their entitled share.">>>



                                      My reply:

                                      Hi Jeff,

                                      Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
                                      always appreciated and is good food for thought.

                                      The only problem here, however, is that
                                      this analogy does not apply to the
                                      situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

                                      The majority of The Freedmen have
                                      been repeatedly proven to be the known
                                      Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
                                      'descendents of the people who were originally
                                      slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
                                      era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
                                      became members of and absorbed into the
                                      tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
                                      became referred to as being The Freedmen.

                                      Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
                                      lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
                                      have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
                                      heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

                                      As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
                                      a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
                                      certainly have more connection to and shared
                                      heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
                                      of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
                                      up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
                                      'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
                                      family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
                                      other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
                                      and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
                                      or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

                                      Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
                                      'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
                                      the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
                                      of the tribe and they have shared in little or
                                      none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
                                      'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
                                      realized that casino money could be involved.

                                      Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
                                      in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
                                      Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
                                      largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

                                      Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
                                      -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
                                      (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
                                      thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
                                      order to, yet again, deny the people who have
                                      any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
                                      the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

                                      It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
                                      -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
                                      caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
                                      step against the very Freedmen who have been
                                      an active, important and functioning part of 
                                      the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

                                      The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
                                      long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
                                      up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
                                      of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

                                      They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
                                      full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
                                      not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
                                      and racism-embracing acceptance of the
                                      racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
                                      to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
                                      (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
                                      -- would never have even been an issue.

                                      The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
                                      in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
                                      is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
                                      that which was taken by White-Supremacist
                                      Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

                                      Just a thought.
                                      Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

                                      --M


                                      P.S.

                                      A good book and film on the subject
                                      of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
                                      'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


                                      Related Links:

                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562


                                       In Generation-Mixed@ yahoogroups. com,
                                      j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                                      Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
                                      just joined since it appears that there were only
                                      800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

                                      I guess it's also another "invalidation"
                                      of
                                      African-Americans historical
                                      Native-American ties and lineage.

                                      But I think besides racism
                                      it also came down to greed.

                                      But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                                      if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                                      with no indian identity, experience or
                                      interest who wanted their entitled share.

                                      This is just one reason why I have no real interest
                                      in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
                                      because I'm sure one would really have to jump
                                      through hoops in what is basically a political process.

                                      Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
                                      it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

                                      So many of us are of indian descent
                                      but will never have the "right" to
                                      claim it in this society without recieving
                                      snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
                                      without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


                                      lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


                                      Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


                                      Cherokee Nation members voted
                                      Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
                                      the tribal citizenship of the
                                      descendants of the people the
                                      Cherokee once owned as slaves.



                                      http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/


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