Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Aren't Beyonce and Lark black

Expand Messages
  • multiracialbookclub
    JEFF WROTE: The problem is that historically black has been an ambiguous term … It s been well documented that the AA
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 21, 2007
    • 0 Attachment

      JEFF WROTE:

      The problem is that historically "black"
      has been an ambiguous term …


      It's been well documented that the AA `Ethnicity'
      is basically a Mixed population due to the history
      of intermarrying and slavery that occurred
      here and in other parts of the new world.

      Were we to put most
      AAs under the microscope
      they could almost all conceivably claim to be Mixed.

      I work with a lot of Africans and I can tell
      you there are very few
      AAs that I've met
      over the years that look like them.



      MY RESPONSE:


      Agreed.



      JEFF WROTE:

      But at what point do we "draw the line"? 

      If almost everyone is Mixed then isn't that
      an ultimately homogenous population?

      If they aren't outsiders or marginalized in `their
      community' do they even have a Mixed `identity'?

      Isn't that inner conflict -- fueled by other's
      treatment -- really the heart of a Mixed
      `identity' and the seeking that follows?


      MY RESPONSE:

      That's an interesting perspective
      and thanks for sharing it with us.

      For me, what has been stated here,
      however, simply does not apply.

      My Mixed-Race `identity' is not a result of
      being treated in a `marginalized or outsider'
      fashion in any community – as, rather early
      in life, I decided that the only person who
      had the right to `define' me … was `me'.

      My Mixed-Race `identity' comes from the fact that
      – at a given time in my life – I simply made the
      decision that I would not allow something such
      as the racist `One-Drop Rule' (used by the United
      States government) to continue to erroneously
      define me; to try to force me to deny any part
      of my lineage; nor try to force, intimidate,
      guilt or shame me into "passing" myself
      off as a person of mono-racial lineage.

      My family has (on both sides) been Mixed-Race for
      multiple generations and – while the
      socio-political
      `identity'
      of some members of both my extended and
      immediate family may have changed at various times
      over the years (or, for some, consistently remained
      the same) – the majority of my family members
      (and also of many, if not most, of certain of the other
      erroneously-`categorized' people in our community)
      have always, always, always, always acknowledged
      `the fact' of our continually Mixed-Race lineage.

      This family-`acknowledged' `Mixed-Race lineage of
      ours was done in harmony with also being seen as
      `just another member' of the particular community /set
      of communities that were generally found in my area.

      This type of community-perception can also be noted
      among the many Latino, Creole, Metis, Melungeon
      and other Multiple-Generation Multiracially-
      Mixed
      (MGM-Mixed) Communities, Ethnicities, Cultures,
      and Nationalities found all over the United States
      and elsewhere – such as the Coloureds of South Africa
      or the Tongans of the Polynesian Islands; etc.

      This experience, of having one's Mixed-Race lineage being
      `generally accepted' within one's particular (and largely
      Mixed-Race) community, can be considered as being
      `rather common' among many other types of largely
      MGM-Mixed / Mixed-Race communities – including
      those which some may erroneously perceive as being
      a "homogenous population" (a perception which is
      often simply based on it's Mixed-Race members not
      being seen or treated as outsiders or marginalized in
      `their community', due to having a Mixed `identity').

      Also, despite biased media reports to the contrary --
      the `tragic mulatto' or `tragic multi-racial' "experience"
      (that of being `rejected by' every group; `not fitting in
      with' any one group; always feeling "racially divided";
      'being taught to hate the minority-part of oneself'; etc.,
      etc.) --- is simply `not universal to'; not `synonymous
      with'; nor `a necessity of' having a Mixed-Race `identity'.

      For many people who are of MGM-Mixed Lineage --
      our Mixed-Race `identity' is more about "accepting,
      embracing, and having pride in and learning more
      about all parts of ourselves and our ancestral lineage"
      -- rather than about "drawing the line" on who may or
      may not `identify' with their own Mixed-Race lineage.

      Added Note:

      Many people are under the false impression that
      if someone's of MGM-Mixed lineage, they come
      from a family wherein both parents and most
      of their relatives `look' just like them.

      In reality, however, quite often, nothing
      could be further from the truth.

      For instance, despite the fact that both of my parents
      are of Mixed-Race ancestry – they actually look
      nothing alike and were often mistaken for an
      Inter-Racial couple – rather than being seen
      as the Mixed-Race couple that they were.

      In addition my extended family contains a `rainbow'
      of colors, hues, shades, complexions; facial features,
      hair textures and body shapes, sizes and types.

      My friends who are fully of groups such as the
      Latino and Creole cultural groups have noted a
      similar trend in their MGM-Mixed families as well.



      JEFF WROTE:

      From my personal perspective (and one probably
      not shared by a lot of others here) I think that
      if someone has `black identified' parents
      grew up in the black community, speaks
      and reflects what are seen as basically
      black mannerisms and behaviors, 
      … saw themselves as "
      black" throughout their
      life, with no cultural connection or experience
      with any other identity -- regardless of their
      DNA profile -- they are basically "
      black".

      I see Beyonce as "black" even though
      I know there is non-Black DNA in her.

      But I also see most Hispanics as generally
      representing their nationality instead of being
      inherently Mixed since they `culturally' aren't
      marginalized by their Mixed background unless
      they are more Mono-racial in appearance
      (specifically native American / first nations
      or mostly African which brings its own
      similar but different baggage.)

      Much like the Creoles, they are something
      that is both Mixed and unique.


      MY REPSONSE:

      Just as there is no such thing as a "light-skinned
      black"
      – there is also no such thing as a singular,
      monolithic, homogenous "black community".

      But rather, there are many different types and
      varieties of `communities' which adhere to
      a so-called
      "black" socio-political `identity'.

      In addition, there is no such thing as
      "black mannerisms and behaviors".

      So often in our society, people want to
      stereotype various groups with labels
      such as "talking black" or "acting white".

      Both concepts are simply stereotypes
      that are used against various groups.

      The phrase "talking black" is often unfairly
      erroneously used as a synonym for either
      `urban slang dialects' or `deep south accents'.

      Such a concept is, in my humble opinion, based
      largely on stereotypes and is also very unfair.

      In addition, no one should be forced to lose their
      Mixed-Race lineage, heritage or `identity – based
      on how their parents (and their parents generation)
      chose to `identity'; nor on how they were erroneously
      taught to `perceive' themselves or their lineage
      (particularly seeing that one's
      socio-political `identity'
      is not the same thing as their "racial" `identity');
      nor on whether or not they were `welcomed' into
      any community or group (whether the community
      is some `White, Midwestern, Suburban community
      or some Black, Rural, Southern community or some
      Multi-Cultural / Ethnic Urban Northern community,
      etc. and so on); nor on whether or not they were
      ever provided with an `opportunity' to learn of,
      relate to or identity with another group in their life.

      The point is that – once a person -  becoming aware
      of and their Mixed-Race lineage – has taken the
      next (rather bold) step of publicly `acknowledging'
      their multi-racially admixed ancestry and now
      `identifies' themselves as being the Mixed-Race
      person that was created via their DNA – they
      are clearly of a Mixed-Race `identity' – no
      matter how they `identified' in the past.

      It should be noted that they were always of
      a Mixed-Race lineage (no matter how they
      choose to "racially" or even
      socio-politically
      `identity'
      at any point in their lives.

      For instance, writer / speaker / activist, Elliot Lewis,
      is clearly a Mixed-Race man – despite the fact that
      his parents adhere (and raised him up in) a
      "black"
      socio-political `identity'
      (and `community' wherein
      they were openly accepted without conflict); actress,
      Halle Berry is a Bi-Racial / Multi-racially-Mixed
      woman who ascribes to a
      "black" socio-political
      `identification'
      and a Mixed "racial" identification
      (as evidenced in her openness about her parents
      Inter-racial marriage); social-activist, Walter White
      was an undeniably Multi-racially-Mixed man who
      was also of the
      AA Ethnic group and who, while
      acknowledging the clear fact of his Mixed-Race
      lineage; was openly accepted within the rest of
      the
      AA community (again, a largely Mixed-Race
      Ethnic group, to begin with) in which he lived
      and, yet, also held onto a
      "black" socio-political
      `identity'
      .(the same goes for Frederick Douglas;
      W.E.B; DuBois; Booker T. Washington; Mary
      Church Terrell; and the list goes on and on.).

      Assessing someone's Mixed-Race 'identity'
      based on how their parents 'identify'; or
      whether or not they were 'accepted' into
      or took on some behavior associated with
      a given community; or how they grew up
      perceiving themselves, hardly seems, to me,
      to be an equitable way to evaulate such.

      For instance, what if 'the assessment' were done by
      replacing the word "black" with the word `White'?

      What about all the people who were reared
      in White' communities; by Mixed-Race people
      who were of a stereotypically `White' phenotype;
      who held onto a `White' socio-political `identity;
      were accepted by others who were categorized
      as `White' as also being `White' and who grew
      up perceiving themselves as `White (yet, may
      have also knew of, heard about, or at least
      wondered if / suspected that there might be
      some other "racial" admixture in their lineage
      ----- and, who, much later in life, discovered
      (or chose to acknowledge) the proof that
      they were, in fact, of Mixed-Race lineage?

      Would they not be considered as being
      Mixed-Race simply because they and /
      or their families were always seen and
      accepted by others as being `White'
      (rather than Metis, or some form
      of Mulatto, or Creole, etc.)?

      One cannot help but to wonder `why does
      there always seem to be this double-standard
      application of certain `rules' and `conditions' when
      it comes to various Ethnic and Cultural groups which
      contain any given amount of Black "racial" admixture
      – and more specifically – when it comes to people
      who are members of the
      AA Ethnic Grouping?

      Just a thought.



      JEFF WROTE:

      While I am barely black and native american
      (1/16th each) it has been present in my
      experience and consciousness throughout my
      entire life due to how recessive traits affected my
      appearance and therefore others reaction to me.

      It shaped my entire identity and worldview and
      how I see myself in the great scheme of things.

      Were I to have just learned of this DNA presence 
      a year ago while spending my entire previous 39
      years in blissful ignorance as a `White' American
      I think it would be ludicrous for me to start running
      around and telling everyone how I'm Mixed even
      if technically I am by racist American standards.



      MY RESPONSE
      :

      While it may be true that – due to your being of a
      majority mono-racially `White' lineage -- `you' may
      feel odd referring to yourself as being Mixed-Race
      -- your experience simply does not compare to
      those members of the
      AA Ethnic group (more
      than 70% of them, in fact) who are, and have
      always known themselves to be, Mixed-Race.

      Most of the Mixed-Race people who are born to two
      parents of the
      AA Ethnic grouping are simply referred
      to as being "black" either simply because
      the U.S.
      Census Bureau has, since 1930, used the racist
      `One-Drop Rule' to mis-categorize them as being
      'black'
      –or because society has mistaken the
      socio-political `identity' (often referred to by the
      term "black"
      ), that some of them have adhered
      to, as being the same thing as their personal and
      familial "racial" `identity' (which they know
      for a fact, is actually `mixed') -- when the two
      entities are, in fact, not the same thing at all.


      Unlike the people who are of a majority
      mono-racial lineage, the Mixed-Race
      members of the
      AA Ethnic group
      are generally of an ancestral lineage which
      became, and continued to remain, no less
      than 45-55% non-Black (some have even
      more non-Black lineage, depending on
      their region and individual families) --
      and they are well aware of the fact that
      their families have been
      mis-categorized
      for generations
      and, due to the racism that
      is prevalent in American society, felt compelled
      to take on a
      "socio-political" `identity' often
      referred to as being "black"
      (yet also never felt
      their socio-political perspective should be seen
      as being the same thing as their "racial" `identity').




      JEFF WROTE:

      And though the Native American is in there I have
      no connection to it and don't even know which tribe
      it comes from - maybe eastern woodlands, maybe
      southwest - all very different and unique.

      There is no one homogenous Indian
      culture or tradition so at this point it is
      interesting but not really relevant to
      me nor something I can truly explore.


      MY RESPONSE:

      Interesting P.O.V.



      JEFF WROTE:

      That's my take on it anyway ;)  

      Jeff



      MY RESPONSE:

      Thanks again for sharing that with us Jeff.

      Very interesting food for thought – as usual.

      Have a great day.

      -- M



      Related Links:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/2339 
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/991 
        
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1745   

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/2340 

    • Tyrone Anderson
      I guess when dealing with someone like Beyonce, one would have to ask her about her views on how she identifies, It was through their clothing line that I
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 21, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        I guess when dealing with someone like Beyonce, one would
        have to ask her about her views on how she identifies,
        It was through their clothing line that I found that her mother
        is Creole from Louisianna and that obviously has affected
        Beyonces identify, because she has discussed it as well.

        j s <creolescience@...> wrote:

        I understand what you are saying and it has sometimes
        been a point of contention between myself and
        other mixed and African-American [AA] people.

        The problem is that historically “black”
        has been an ambiguous term meaning “race”
        at times and ‘ethnicity’ / ‘caste’ in others.

        It's been well documented that the AA Ethnicity is
        basically a Mixed population due to the history
        of intermarrying and slavery that occurred
        here and in other parts of the new world.
        Were we to put most AAs under the microscope
        they could almost all conceivably claim to be Mixed.
        I work with a lot of Africans and I can tell
        you there are very few AAs that I've met
        over the years that look like them.

        But at what point do we "draw the line"?
        If almost everyone is Mixed then isn’t that
        an ultimately homogenous population?
        If they aren't outsiders or marginalized in ‘their
        community’ do they even have a Mixed ‘identity’?
        Isn't that inner conflict -- fueled by other's
        treatment -- really the heart of a Mixed
        ‘identity’ and the seeking that follows?

        From my personal perspective (and one probably
        not shared by a lot of others here) I think that
        if someone has black identified parents
        grew up in the black community,
        speaks and reflects what are seen as
        basically black mannerisms and behaviors,
        saw themselves as “black” throughout their life,
        with no cultural connection or experience with
        any other identity -- regardless of their
        DNA profile -- they are basically “black”.
        I see Beyonce as “black” even though
        I know there is non-Black DNA in her.
        But I also see most Hispanics as generally
        representing their nationality instead of being
        inherently Mixed since they ‘culturally’ aren’t
        marginalized by their Mixed background unless
        they are more Mono-racial in appearance
        (specifically native American / first nations
        or mostly African which brings its
        own similar but different baggage.)
        Much like the Creoles, they are something
        that is both Mixed and unique.

        While I am barely black and native american
        (1/16th each) it has been present in my
        experience and consciousness throughout my
        entire life due to how recessive traits affected my
        appearance and therefore others reaction to me.

        It shaped my entire identity and worldview and
        how I see myself in the great scheme of things.

        Were I to have just learned of this DNA presence
        a year ago while spending my entire previous 39
        years in blissful ignorance as a ‘White’ American
        I think it would be ludicrous for me to start
        running around and telling everyone how I'm Mixed
        even if technically I am by racist American standards.

        And though the Native American is in there I have
        no connection to it and don't even know which tribe
        it comes from - maybe eastern woodlands, maybe
        southwest - all very different and unique.

        There is no one homogenous Indian
        culture or tradition so at this point it
        is interesting but not really relevant to
        me nor something I can truly explore.
         
        That's my take on it anyway ;)

          Jeff
         


        Related Link:
        http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2339

         
        Kia <tiny_kia@yahoo. com> wrote:

        From what they've said and what I've
        read both of these people are black.

        I mean both parents are african-american.

        Although Lark has a dutch last name
        she's still black and she's said it.
        Most african-americans have foreign
        (non african)last names due to slavery.

        So, why are these two considered
        multi-ethnic /or multi-racial?

        Just would like to know?





      • Tyrone Anderson
        Hello Kia, The problem with the statements you made is you are making an assumption of Beyonce and Larks V identify and family identity. I ve heard people
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 21, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Kia,

          The problem with the statements you made is you are making an
          assumption of Beyonce and Larks V identify and family identity.
          I've heard people refer to themselves as black &
          mixed, black-biracial, and depending on how they
          define that identity African-american or black.
          Beyonces mother is Creole, her mothers family is Creole.

          Multi ethnic is just that I believe, it's not always
          about identity as much history, family and genetics.
          Beyonce and Lark V are both mixed both multiethnic.
          That doesn't have to mean it's an identity.

          I know black and white people (visually non mixed)
          who say they don't identify racially (black or white)
          And they don't have to be, right?
           
          Ty

          Kia <tiny_kia@...> wrote:

          From what they've said and what I've
          read both of these people are black.

          I mean both parents are african-american.

          Although Lark has a dutch last name
          she's still black and she's said it.
          Most african-americans have foreign
          (non african)last names due to slavery.

          So, why are these two considered
          multi-ethnic /or multi-racial?

          Just would like to know?




        • tlbaker
          Hello, These are all excellent points and of course I agree w/all as usual, thank you for expressing them as I always enjoy reading them. Kia, I identify as
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 21, 2007
          • 0 Attachment

            Hello,These are all excellent points and of course I agree w/all as usual,
            thank you for expressing them as I always enjoy reading them.

            Kia, I 'identify' as black" and will tell people I am
            black although I know that I am Mixed European as
            well as Native American on both sides of my family.

            It created a lot of confusion for me as a child
            especially visiting the "black" relatives whom
            looked White and couldn't understand why they did.
            I thought I was the only one who had a family like mine.
            My mother is also very fair and asked my paternal
            (the mother-in-law) grandmother if she were
            White, she answers, 'no she is just YELLOW'!!
            As a child I didn't not know what yellow or yella meant
            until I was much older and remembering the conversation and
            realizing that it was sort of not nice to say that about anyone.
            Meantime my grandmother wasn't so dark herself
            listed as a Mulatto as a toddler on her NYC
            1910 census LOL, oh well, who knows.

            Anyway, if people asked what I am mixed w/I will
            break it down for them, if I am in the mood, LOL.

            Close White friends will say I am not really black
            (whatever that means, I guess they are referring to
            today's black culture which I am definitely not a part of).
            Even someone at work told me that they just don't see me as black.
            I grew up in the Boogey Down Bronx (NYC) went to catholic
            school and was very sheltered from a lot of what was going
            on, was raised differently, and maybe expose to more
            culture than some of the other kids on the block.
            It was pretty decent back then where I lived a bunch of two
            family houses and fairly decent neighbors; however, that
            was over 20 years ago who knows what it is like now.

            But was Rodney says it true.

            In the US, Beyonce, Lark, myself and others like ourselves
            are considered black regardless of our backgrounds.

            This is fine for me as I am proud of being part of a rich history
            where people survived great atrocities committed against them,
            made accomplishments that were thought of as impossible, and
            whom have fought and died for the freedoms that I enjoy today.

            However, I do get annoyed if you try to stereotype me then I
            become indignant (doesn't happen often, at least not overtly).

            Really, what people think of me is none of my
            business as I cannot control how they perceive
            me, it is what I think of myself is most important.

            I know I am not mono-racially Black and I don't
            need to wear it on my sleeve for the world to see.

             

            Lynne

             

             


            From: Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com
            On Behalf Of Tyrone Anderson
            Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 5:29 PM
            To: Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: Aren't Beyonce and Lark black

             

            Hello Kia,

            The problem with the statements you made is you are making an
            assumption of Beyonce and Larks V identify and family identity.
            I've heard people refer to themselves as black
            mixed, black-biracial, and depending on how they
            define that identity African-american or black.
            Beyonces mother is Creole, her mothers family is Creole.

            Multi ethnic is just that I believe, it's not always
            about identity as much history, family and genetics.
            Beyonce and Lark V are both mixed both multiethnic.
            That doesn't have to mean it's an identity.

            I know black and white people (visually non mixed)
            who say they don't identify racially (black or white)
            And they don't have to be, right?

             

            Ty


            Kia <tiny_kia@yahoo. com> wrote:


            From what they've said and what I've
            read both of these people are black.

            I mean both parents are african-american.

            Although Lark has a dutch last name
            she's still black and she's said it.
            Most african-americans have foreign
            (non african)last names due to slavery.

            So, why are these two considered
            multi-ethnic /or multi-racial?

            Just would like to know?



          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.