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Another hybrid gear bike

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  • js montes
    I have had several hybrids, and the lucky purchase of a nice 3-speed cluster while travelling in Santiago, Chile, gave me the occasion to assemble yet
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 5, 2014
    I have had several hybrids, and the lucky purchase of a nice 3-speed cluster while travelling in Santiago, Chile,  gave me the occasion to assemble yet another. The cluster in question is of Taiwanese manufacture, quite well finished and it was only 3 dollars at one of the many shops in San Diego St. which is the haven of the Chilean bikers, about three street blocks with probably more than fifty shops offering everything one could dream, including custom frame building, cargo bikes, etc. I wish I'd purchased a few more of these clusters, as they work very well.
    I am using an old (about 1960)  Sturmey Archer AW hub,  which came with a nice brightly chromed  case, branded JC Higgins, which I think was the house brand of the Sears stores in USA. I believe that hub is a good reflection of the build quality of the AW, as nothing was required regarding repairs or maintenance, just adding a teaspoonful of oil, per instructions. The cluster threaded onto a threaded carrier of even  older vintage.
    The hub was laced to a 27" rim and installed in an Apollo frame, as shown in the photos. The gear change is effected through a Shimano 6-speed derailleur thumb shifter. By some luck the clicks coincide with gear positions. The stem mount of the shifter is also very convenient, with direct drive position being vertical.
    The cluster has gears with 16-19-22 teeth and in combination with the internal gears and the two chainrings ( 52-42) up front, it has a range between 38.5 and 117 in. This range of 3 to 1 is not bad, but it has to be conceded that the present set-up is overgeared and will be changed shortly for a more practical one with a 46-36 set of front chainrings, giving a high of 103 and a low of 33 in. Normal gear is direct drive on the 19 t. rear sprocket which would then be 66 in., rather than the 74 in.  at present. Tasmania is very hilly and 38 in. is not low enough for any extended ride.
    I have a question for the Sturmey Archer experts. The hub seems to have only one neutral between 2nd and 3rd gears, but not between 1st and 2nd. In practice this is not a problem, but it is at a variance with other AW hubs I have. Is that normal, perhaps a feature of the JC Higgins version?
    I attach some photos of the hub and installation.

    Sergio Montes
    Kingston Beach, Tasmania, Australia
  • John Allen
    At 12:19 AM 6/6/2014, js montes jsmontes-1937@bigpond.com ... If this cluster freewheels, you should disable the freewheeling or the hub may not shift well.
    Message 2 of 10 , Jun 6, 2014
      At 12:19 AM 6/6/2014, js montes jsmontes-1937@... [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
       
      [Attachment(s) from js montes included below]

      I have had several hybrids, and the lucky purchase of a nice 3-speed cluster while travelling in Santiago, Chile,  gave me the occasion to assemble yet another. The cluster in question is of Taiwanese manufacture, quite well finished and it was only 3 dollars at one of the many shops in San Diego St. which is the haven of the Chilean bikers, about three street blocks with probably more than fifty shops offering everything one could dream, including custom frame building, cargo bikes, etc. I wish I'd purchased a few more of these clusters, as they work very well.

      If this cluster freewheels, you should disable the freewheeling or the hub may not shift well.

      I am using an old (about 1960)  Sturmey Archer AW hub,  which came with a nice brightly chromed  case, branded JC Higgins, which I think was the house brand of the Sears stores in USA.

      Yes.

       I believe that hub is a good reflection of the build quality of the AW, as nothing was required regarding repairs or maintenance, just adding a teaspoonful of oil, per instructions. The cluster threaded onto a threaded carrier of even  older vintage.

      I think that is a Steyr (Austria) hub, which was a licensed AW copy. IIRC Sears imported bicycles from Steyr Daimler-Puch in Austria. Sturmey did not use a ribbed shell.

      The hub was laced to a 27" rim and installed in an Apollo frame, as shown in the photos. The gear change is effected through a Shimano 6-speed derailleur thumb shifter. By some luck the clicks coincide with gear positions. The stem mount of the shifter is also very convenient, with direct drive position being vertical.
      The cluster has gears with 16-19-22 teeth and in combination with the internal gears and the two chainrings ( 52-42) up front, it has a range between 38.5 and 117 in. This range of 3 to 1 is not bad, but it has to be conceded that the present set-up is overgeared and will be changed shortly for a more practical one with a 46-36 set of front chainrings, giving a high of 103 and a low of 33 in. Normal gear is direct drive on the 19 t. rear sprocket which would then be 66 in., rather than the 74 in.  at present. Tasmania is very hilly and 38 in. is not low enough for any extended ride.
      I have a question for the Sturmey Archer experts. The hub seems to have only one neutral between 2nd and 3rd gears, but not between 1st and 2nd. In practice this is not a problem, but it is at a variance with other AW hubs I have. Is that normal, perhaps a feature of the JC Higgins version?

      No AW or copy has a neutral between first and second. The gear-ring (right-side) pawls are pushed down by the clutch in low gear, so drive is from the gear ring through the planetary gears to the planet-cage pawls. In middle gear, the clutch releases the right-side pawls and drives the gear ring for direct-drive, and in high gear, the clutch drives the planet cage, which drives the gear ring by way of the planetary gears.

      I attach some photos of the hub and installation.

      Sergio Montes
      Kingston Beach, Tasmania, Australia

      John S. Allen

      Technical Writer/Editor,  http://sheldonbrown.com

      League Cycling Instructor #77-C

      jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
      http://bikexprt.com
      http://john-s-allen.com/blog
      http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts

    • js montes
      John, Thanks for the comments and the clearing of the question of the single neutral in the AW hub. The Steyr copy seems very faithful to the AW original as
      Message 3 of 10 , Jun 6, 2014
        John,
        Thanks for the comments and the clearing of the question of the single neutral in the AW hub. The Steyr copy seems very faithful to the AW original as parts interchange easily with S-A hubs. And you are right, that hub came from a Steyr Goodwill bike purchased while we were in Boston  in the late 60's. I had forgotten the origins.
        The 3-speed cluster freewheel is not disabled, and you can feel the lag in taking up the drive after coasting for a while. But the gear change remains OK.  Next time  I open it the pawls will be blocked.

        Another  question  regarding the length of the axle protruding from each side on the AW hub. Does it have to be exactly the same on the two sides? If not, will that modify the gear change action? Hadland is not very explicit on this point.

        Sergio Montes
        Kingston Beach, Tasmania, Australia


        On 7/06/2014 6:06 AM, John Allen jsallen@... [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
        At 12:19 AM 6/6/2014, js montes jsmontes-1937@... [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
         
        [Attachment(s) from js montes included below]

        I have had several hybrids, and the lucky purchase of a nice 3-speed cluster while travelling in Santiago, Chile,  gave me the occasion to assemble yet another. The cluster in question is of Taiwanese manufacture, quite well finished and it was only 3 dollars at one of the many shops in San Diego St. which is the haven of the Chilean bikers, about three street blocks with probably more than fifty shops offering everything one could dream, including custom frame building, cargo bikes, etc. I wish I'd purchased a few more of these clusters, as they work very well.

        If this cluster freewheels, you should disable the freewheeling or the hub may not shift well.

        I am using an old (about 1960)  Sturmey Archer AW hub,  which came with a nice brightly chromed  case, branded JC Higgins, which I think was the house brand of the Sears stores in USA.

        Yes.

         I believe that hub is a good reflection of the build quality of the AW, as nothing was required regarding repairs or maintenance, just adding a teaspoonful of oil, per instructions. The cluster threaded onto a threaded carrier of even  older vintage.

        I think that is a Steyr (Austria) hub, which was a licensed AW copy. IIRC Sears imported bicycles from Steyr Daimler-Puch in Austria. Sturmey did not use a ribbed shell.

        The hub was laced to a 27" rim and installed in an Apollo frame, as shown in the photos. The gear change is effected through a Shimano 6-speed derailleur thumb shifter. By some luck the clicks coincide with gear positions. The stem mount of the shifter is also very convenient, with direct drive position being vertical.
        The cluster has gears with 16-19-22 teeth and in combination with the internal gears and the two chainrings ( 52-42) up front, it has a range between 38.5 and 117 in. This range of 3 to 1 is not bad, but it has to be conceded that the present set-up is overgeared and will be changed shortly for a more practical one with a 46-36 set of front chainrings, giving a high of 103 and a low of 33 in. Normal gear is direct drive on the 19 t. rear sprocket which would then be 66 in., rather than the 74 in.  at present. Tasmania is very hilly and 38 in. is not low enough for any extended ride.
        I have a question for the Sturmey Archer experts. The hub seems to have only one neutral between 2nd and 3rd gears, but not between 1st and 2nd. In practice this is not a problem, but it is at a variance with other AW hubs I have. Is that normal, perhaps a feature of the JC Higgins version?

        No AW or copy has a neutral between first and second. The gear-ring (right-side) pawls are pushed down by the clutch in low gear, so drive is from the gear ring through the planetary gears to the planet-cage pawls. In middle gear, the clutch releases the right-side pawls and drives the gear ring for direct-drive, and in high gear, the clutch drives the planet cage, which drives the gear ring by way of the planetary gears.

        I attach some photos of the hub and installation.

        Sergio Montes
        Kingston Beach, Tasmania, Australia

        John S. Allen

        Technical Writer/Editor,  http://sheldonbrown.com

        League Cycling Instructor #77-C

        jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
        http://bikexprt.com
        http://john-s-allen.com/blog
        http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts


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      • John Allen
        At 06:02 PM 6/6/2014, js montes jsmontes-1937@bigpond.com ... Good. I ve seen some AW copies (Hercules or Brampton IIRC) where the threading of the ball ring
        Message 4 of 10 , Jun 10, 2014
          At 06:02 PM 6/6/2014, js montes jsmontes-1937@...
          [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
          >
          >
          >John,
          >Thanks for the comments and the clearing of the question of the
          >single neutral in the AW hub. The Steyr copy seems very faithful to
          >the AW original as parts interchange easily with S-A hubs.

          Good. I've seen some AW copies (Hercules or Brampton IIRC) where the
          threading of the ball ring (at the right end of the hub shell) was
          at a slightly different diameter.

          >And you are right, that hub came from a Steyr Goodwill bike
          >purchased while we were in Boston in the late 60's. I had forgotten
          >the origins.

          It's traveled far...

          >The 3-speed cluster freewheel is not disabled, and you can feel the
          >lag in taking up the drive after coasting for a while. But the gear
          >change remains OK. Next time I open it the pawls will be blocked.
          >
          >Another question regarding the length of the axle protruding from
          >each side on the AW hub. Does it have to be exactly the same on the
          >two sides? If not, will that modify the gear change action? Hadland
          >is not very explicit on this point.

          The length of the axle on each end doesn't matter as long as it isn't
          too short to hold the axle nuts securely, or so long on the right
          that the flared right-hand axle nut can't be tightened down. The
          length of the indicator spindle is only important to the extent that
          the chain must move freely to engage high and low gear. Adjusting the
          shifting as described here by Sheldon Brown allows the use of any
          indicator spindle/pullchain which meets these requirements:
          http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer_tech.html#adjustment

          John S. Allen

          Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

          League Cycling Instructor #77-C

          jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
          http://bikexprt.com
          http://john-s-allen.com/blog
          http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts
        • Michael Wilson
          Note that there are 2 axle lengths for the AW, 5 3/4 and 6 1/4 inches. This allows another 1/4 inch for the multiple sprocket cluster. I may have one or two
          Message 5 of 10 , Jun 11, 2014
            Note that there are 2 axle lengths for the AW, 5 3/4 and 6 1/4 inches.  This allows another 1/4 inch for the multiple sprocket cluster.  I may have one or two of the long axles somewhere if you want one.  But I mostly have british bike spares which are typically short axle, and S5 spares not AW.

            But you cannot move the axle relative to the hub shell (unless you machine something and I am not sure what that would be).

            Let us (me) know how you prevent the freewheel from freewheeling; I found it a lot easier to make it freewheel both directions.  That happened to us in Nova Scotia in 1972; fortunately the local fixit-man replaced the broken pawl springs with wire brush bristles.  He had never seen a derailleur bike before.

            Michael Wilson

          • John Allen
            Sturmey-Archer also made a 6 1/2 axle in the later years of production of the classic AW -- same as the 6 1/4 with an added 1/4 on the left. This axle makes
            Message 6 of 10 , Jun 11, 2014
              Sturmey-Archer also made a 6 1/2" axle in the
              later years of production of the classic AW --
              same as the 6 1/4" with an added 1/4" on the
              left. This axle makes it possible to use the AW
              in a frame with 126mm or 130mm rear dropout spacing.

              Sheldon Brown has described how he managed to get
              7 cogs onto an AW: http://sheldonbrown.com/org/otb.html

              I made a couple of hybrid-gearing adapters for an
              AW by grinding the teeth off a 13T sprocket so it
              would press fit into a Regina freewheel outer
              body. This easily fit 5 sprockets -- with
              wide-step double chainwheels, really, enough!

              At 09:28 AM 6/11/2014, Michael Wilson
              mtwils@... [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
              >
              >
              >Note that there are 2 axle lengths for the AW, 5
              >3/4 and 6 1/4 inches. Â This allows another 1/4
              >inch for the multiple sprocket cluster.  I may
              >have one or two of the long axles somewhere if
              >you want one. Â But I mostly have british bike
              >spares which are typically short axle, and S5 spares not AW.

              John S. Allen

              Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

              League Cycling Instructor #77-C

              jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
              http://bikexprt.com
              http://john-s-allen.com/blog
              http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts
            • Mike
              I don t know if this helps, but the following items are advertised at www.biketoolsetc.com; these items might be applicable to the hybrid bicycle fitups that
              Message 7 of 10 , Jun 11, 2014
                I don't know if this helps, but the following items are advertised at www.biketoolsetc.com; these items might be applicable to the hybrid bicycle fitups that are described by John Allen.  Although these axles are advertised as "pre-NIG", and I'm not sure if Mr. Allen's reference to "... the classic AW" is a reference to "pre-NIG" line, or to the later "NIG" (no intermediate gear) line.  Or possibly both?

                AXLE 5 3/4'' w/ SUN GEAR for PRE-NIG AW (Item #SU-HSA107)  $17.95



                AXLE 6 1/4'' w/ SUN GEAR for PRE-NIG AW (Item #SU-HSA108)  $17.95
                AXLE with SUN GEAR for PRE-NIG AW 6 3/8'' (Item #SU-HSA370)  $21.95

                I have no affiliation with biketoolsetc.com, and I have no financial interest in their operation/business, but I have been a satisfied customer in the past (and I have found them to be a good source of a few Sturmey-Archer parts which I would have otherwise found to be "unobtainium".)

                Mike Dinolfo

                On 06/11/2014 10:55 AM, John Allen jsallen@... [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
                 

                Sturmey-Archer also made a 6 1/2" axle in the
                later years of production of the classic AW --
                same as the 6 1/4" with an added 1/4" on the
                left. This axle makes it possible to use the AW
                in a frame with 126mm or 130mm rear dropout spacing.

                Sheldon Brown has described how he managed to get
                7 cogs onto an AW: http://sheldonbrown.com/org/otb.html

                I made a couple of hybrid-gearing adapters for an
                AW by grinding the teeth off a 13T sprocket so it
                would press fit into a Regina freewheel outer
                body. This easily fit 5 sprockets -- with
                wide-step double chainwheels, really, enough!

                At 09:28 AM 6/11/2014, Michael Wilson
                mtwils@... [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
                >
                >
                >Note that there are 2 axle lengths for the AW, 5
                >3/4 and 6 1/4 inches. Â This allows another 1/4
                >inch for the multiple sprocket cluster.  I may
                >have one or two of the long axles somewhere if
                >you want one. Â But I mostly have british bike
                >spares which are typically short axle, and S5 spares not AW.

                John S. Allen

                Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

                League Cycling Instructor #77-C

                jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
                http://bikexprt.com
                http://john-s-allen.com/blog
                http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts


              • John Allen
                Yes, I meant pre-NIG. The 5 3/4 and 6 1/4 axles are common, recoverable from parts stashes. The 6 1/2 (6 3/8 ?) axle is rarer, but some bike shops have a
                Message 8 of 10 , Jun 11, 2014
                  Yes, I meant pre-NIG.

                  The 5 3/4" and 6 1/4 axles are common, recoverable from parts stashes. The 6 1/2"  (6 3/8"?) axle is rarer, but some bike shops have a few. Mine is 6 1/2".

                  At 11:48 AM 6/11/2014, Mike mdinolfo@... [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
                   

                  I don't know if this helps, but the following items are advertised at www.biketoolsetc.com; these items might be applicable to the hybrid bicycle fitups that are described by John Allen.  Although these axles are advertised as "pre-NIG", and I'm not sure if Mr. Allen's reference to "... the classic AW" is a reference to "pre-NIG" line, or to the later "NIG" (no intermediate gear) line.  Or possibly both?

                  AXLE 5 3/4'' w/ SUN GEAR for PRE-NIG AW (Item #SU-HSA107)  $17.95



                  AXLE 6 1/4'' w/ SUN GEAR for PRE-NIG AW (Item #SU-HSA108)  $17.95
                  AXLE with SUN GEAR for PRE-NIG AW 6 3/8'' (Item #SU-HSA370)  $21.95

                  I have no affiliation with biketoolsetc.com, and I have no financial interest in their operation/business, but I have been a satisfied customer in the past (and I have found them to be a good source of a few Sturmey-Archer parts which I would have otherwise found to be "unobtainium".)

                  Mike Dinolfo

                  On 06/11/2014 10:55 AM, John Allen jsallen@... [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
                   

                  Sturmey-Archer also made a 6 1/2" axle in the
                  later years of production of the classic AW --
                  same as the 6 1/4" with an added 1/4" on the
                  left. This axle makes it possible to use the AW
                  in a frame with 126mm or 130mm rear dropout spacing.

                  Sheldon Brown has described how he managed to get
                  7 cogs onto an AW: http://sheldonbrown.com/org/otb.html

                  I made a couple of hybrid-gearing adapters for an
                  AW by grinding the teeth off a 13T sprocket so it
                  would press fit into a Regina freewheel outer
                  body. This easily fit 5 sprockets -- with
                  wide-step double chainwheels, really, enough!

                  At 09:28 AM 6/11/2014, Michael Wilson
                  mtwils@... [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >Note that there are 2 axle lengths for the AW, 5
                  >3/4 and 6 1/4 inches. Â This allows another 1/4
                  >inch for the multiple sprocket cluster.  I may
                  >have one or two of the long axles somewhere if
                  >you want one. Â But I mostly have british bike
                  >spares which are typically short axle, and S5 spares not AW.

                  John S. Allen

                  Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

                  League Cycling Instructor #77-C

                  jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
                  http://bikexprt.com
                  http://john-s-allen.com/blog
                  http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts

                  John S. Allen

                  jsallen *at* bikexprt.com

                  http://bikexprt.com

                • Mark Stonich
                  ... +1 ... Something , like the axle at the top in the photo below. Found it in an AW I bought, with a freewheel on a threaded driver. BTW SA still makes
                  Message 9 of 10 , Jun 11, 2014
                  On Jun 11, 2014, at 8:28 AM, Michael Wilson mtwils@... [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
                  But you cannot move the axle relative to the hub shell

                  +1

                  (unless you machine something and I am not sure what that would be).

                  "Something", like the axle at the top in the photo below. Found it in an AW I bought, with a freewheel on a threaded driver.

                  BTW SA still makes 162mm (6-13/32") axles to fit older AWs, HSA 370


                  Another possibility; Someone with patience could extend the slot in an SRF3 axle with a rod saw.
                  An AW cone doesn't go all the way down the threads. If (and it's a very big "IF") you could bore out half the threads 
                  on an AW cone to 7/16" you could put a fairly wide freewheel on a threaded driver. 


                   Mark Stonich;    BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                     5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, MN 55417 USA
                        Ph. (612) 824-2372   http://bikesmithdesign.com



                • Michael Wilson
                  I would also focus on getting cogs further in than the inner edge of the driver. I brazed an atom/regina freewheel body outer section to a splined driver, and
                  Message 10 of 10 , Jun 12, 2014
                    I would also focus on getting cogs further in than the inner edge of the driver.  I brazed an atom/regina freewheel body outer section to a splined driver, and that put the cogs much closer to the spokes.  So close that I had to modify the Suntour V-GT derailleur to not hit the spokes.  This mod could have been used with the S5 also.  Or you can make some adaptor and bolt another sprocket to the inside of your freewheel.

                    For the less-experimental among you, I have a new SA CS-RF3 3 speed hub with the cassette driver, missing either the right side cone or locknut (stolen for my bichain fixed/free bike, and I forget at this moment exactly which solution I chose).  I have no idea how well it would hold up.  I suspect it would not work with the wheels manufacturing accelerator 11 cog cassette for Shimano 10 hubs though.  I could test that since I have both ...

                    If I do any more work like this it will be getting many cogs onto the Rohloff so I can build the 1000 speed bike.

                    Michael Wilson

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