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SRAM Automatix

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  • aarons_bicycle_repair
    Hello, I cannot find an exploded diagram for the Automatix. Can one of Ya ll find one for me and post the URL? I have overhauled my first one (not many in
    Message 1 of 19 , May 6, 2014

      Hello,


      I cannot find an exploded diagram for the Automatix.


      Can one of Ya'll find one for me and post the URL?


      I have overhauled my first one (not many in hilly Seattle) and it is quite a neat hub.  The customer wore out the coaster pads/shoes.  The hub locked up due to galling of the pads and no grease.  I also did the spring adjustment (note I do not "modifiy" hubs because of liability but bending the spring is akin to adjusting a cantilever brake that does not have centering screws, so I think it is OK).  The hub now shifts later at a higher speed.  His complaint was it shifted too soon.  


       I have a picture of all the guts laid out and want to include a diagram and will post it on my website.




      -- 


      Sincerely,
      Aaron Goss  
      President & Master Mechanic

      Aaron's Bicycle Repair, Inc.
      9988 15th AVE SW, Suite E
      Seattle, WA   98146

      (206) 938-9795  

      RideYourBike.com
      Aaron's Bicycle Repair

       


    • John Allen
      A hub which is sensitive only to RPM will shift at a higher road speed in a larger wheel. What size wheel was the hub in, and did you get an idea of your
      Message 2 of 19 , May 7, 2014
        A hub which is sensitive only to RPM will shift at a higher road
        speed in a larger wheel. What size wheel was the hub in, and did you
        get an idea of your customer's preferred cadence?

        This raises interesting issues pointing the way to more sophisticated
        automatic shifting. Due to the variation of torque around the pedal
        stroke, a hub which is also sensitive to pedaling effort would need a
        memory -- and so probably either hydraulic control (like classic
        automotive automatic transmissions) or electronic control (like
        modern ones). The hub would have to shift at lower RPM with higher
        effort to as to allow standing on the pedals, and shift at the dead
        centers to make shifting as smooth as possible. I'm not sure whether
        automatic shifting could ever properly reflect the preferences of a
        skillful cyclist. Trying to make it do that would be an interesting
        experiment.

        At 08:25 PM 5/6/2014, aaron@... wrote:
        >
        >
        >Hello,
        >
        >
        >I cannot find an exploded diagram for the Automatix.
        >
        >
        >Can one of Ya'll find one for me and post the URL?
        >
        >
        >I have overhauled my first one (not many in hilly Seattle) and it is
        >quite a neat hub. The customer wore out the coaster
        >pads/shoes. The hub locked up due to galling of the pads and no
        >grease. I also did the spring adjustment (note I do not "modifiy"
        >hubs because of liability but bending the spring is akin to
        >adjusting a cantilever brake that does not have centering screws, so
        >I think it is OK). The hub now shifts later at a higher speed. His
        >complaint was it shifted too soon.
        >
        >
        > I have a picture of all the guts laid out and want to include a
        > diagram and will post it on my website.

        John S. Allen

        Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

        League Cycling Instructor #77-C
        Member, National Committee on Uniform Traffic Control Devices Bicycle
        Technical Committee.

        jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
        http://bikexprt.com
        http://john-s-allen.com/blog
        http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts
      • aarons_bicycle_repair
        A 20 Dahon. The customer was very pleased with the adjustment I made to the shift spring. Cadence? Skillfull Cyclist? The dude was just a regular guy riding
        Message 3 of 19 , May 9, 2014
          A 20" Dahon.
          The customer was very pleased with the adjustment I made to the shift spring. 

          Cadence?  Skillfull Cyclist?

          The dude was just a regular guy riding a bike and wanted the low gear to stay engaged longer!

          We have GOT to stop calling folks cyclists!  No regular person identifies with that.  No normal on the street Joe wants to dress funny to ride a bike.  If we change the way we describe people on bikes, then we can encourage more people to pick up the wheel!
        • Ince, Wilbur
          When everyone rides, we can drop cyclist. Then it will be moot. Until then we have to encourage everyone to enjoy the personal choice to ride. Wilbur Ince On
          Message 4 of 19 , May 9, 2014
            When everyone rides, we can drop cyclist.  Then it will be moot.  Until then we have to encourage everyone to enjoy the personal choice to ride.  

            Wilbur Ince


            On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 2:26 PM, aaron@... [Geared_hub_bikes] <Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
             

            A 20" Dahon.

            The customer was very pleased with the adjustment I made to the shift spring. 

            Cadence?  Skillfull Cyclist?

            The dude was just a regular guy riding a bike and wanted the low gear to stay engaged longer!

            We have GOT to stop calling folks cyclists!  No regular person identifies with that.  No normal on the street Joe wants to dress funny to ride a bike.  If we change the way we describe people on bikes, then we can encourage more people to pick up the wheel!


          • hubmanholland
            Cyclist (noun) A person who rides a cycle, especially a bicycle, or who habitually engages in cycling. If you can t call people who ride a bicycle a cyclist,
            Message 5 of 19 , May 13, 2014
              Cyclist (noun)
              A person who rides a cycle, especially a bicycle, or who habitually engages in cycling.

              If you can't call people who ride a bicycle a cyclist, then what do you call them? Does the word cyclist have some extra meaning in the USA? Where I come from (the UK), we only have one word: a cyclist. If one then dresses up in tight shiny clothes and sits on a razor blade saddle with a really expensive carbon frame and gossamer tyres, we have a perfect word for that: a cyclist.

              Please excuse the sarcasm, it's horribly British of me and I should just grow up.

              Also, whilst we're on this topic, is there a verb in the US 'to bike'? Example: I like to bike to work. I now live in the Netherlands and I hear it a lot amongst Dutch people speaking English, but it's a new word for me. In the UK one either rides a bike (to work) or cycles (to work).

              Simon
            • Keith Barlow
              I m in the UK, and I recognise the verb to bike as meaning to send something quickly by motorcycle courier. If I were in London, it may be that it would also
              Message 6 of 19 , May 13, 2014
                I'm in the UK, and I recognise the verb "to bike" as meaning to send something quickly by motorcycle courier. If I were in London, it may be that it would also apply to having something sent via bicycle courier, but I haven't worked there nor have I heard it used in that way.

                On 13 May 2014, at 21:08, "hubstripping@... [Geared_hub_bikes]" <Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                Cyclist (noun)
                A person who rides a cycle, especially a bicycle, or who habitually engages in cycling.

                If you can't call people who ride a bicycle a cyclist, then what do you call them? Does the word cyclist have some extra meaning in the USA? Where I come from (the UK), we only have one word: a cyclist. If one then dresses up in tight shiny clothes and sits on a razor blade saddle with a really expensive carbon frame and gossamer tyres, we have a perfect word for that: a cyclist.

                Please excuse the sarcasm, it's horribly British of me and I should just grow up.

                Also, whilst we're on this topic, is there a verb in the US 'to bike'? Example: I like to bike to work. I now live in the Netherlands and I hear it a lot amongst Dutch people speaking English, but it's a new word for me. In the UK one either rides a bike (to work) or cycles (to work).

                Simon
              • aarons_bicycle_repair
                In the USA, it is my experience that those not familiar with the bike world do not necessarily know the word cyclist . If they do hear it they think of a
                Message 7 of 19 , May 15, 2014
                  In the USA, it is my experience that those not familiar with "the bike world" do not necessarily know the word "cyclist".  If they do hear it they think of a spandex-clad-Lance Armstrong-type-racer-dude.  (note: men and women are hard to tell apart when all "kitted-up".  The term "cyclist" in America is an elitist term and means "enthusiast or racer type on a road bike". That is my take on it.  My shop is in the most demographically diverse neighborhood in the USA.  White Center, Washington.  We get all types in here from the homeless person or DUI "cyclist" to the kitted-alien-helmeted "cyclist".

                  We prefer the term biker or bicyclist.

                  I know I am a bi-cyclist because I ride both road and mountain.  That is the only types of bike, right?

                  And if you race for an online company, does that make you an E-racer?

                  Back on topic:

                  Anyone found an exploded diagram for the Automatix?

                  The guys at SRAM were clueless, as usual.  Hello folks in Germany......?
                • hubmanholland
                  Aaron, Thanks for your reply. I think that I understand your original comment better now, all except one point: you said those not familiar with the bike
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 16, 2014
                    Aaron,
                    Thanks for your reply. I think that I understand your original comment better now, all except one point: you said 'those not familiar with "the bike world"'. I've never had the chance to visit the USA, but doesn't every kid grow up with their own bicycle?
                    Simon
                  • brucemetras
                    Other than the differences in the coaster brake, the Sachs A2110 hub is basically the same ... there are diagrams at hubstripping as well as Jens site on
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 16, 2014
                      Other than the differences in the coaster brake, the Sachs A2110 hub is basically the same ... there are diagrams at hubstripping as well as Jens' site on Sachs torpedo hubs.

                      F&S / Torpedo AUTOMATIC

                       



                      torpedo coasterbrake, fichtel and sachs parts

                       



                    • John Allen
                      These hubs are covered in Sutherland s Handbook of coaster Brake and Internal Gear Hubs, on sheldonbrown.com.-- http://sheldonbrown.com/sutherland.html ...
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 16, 2014
                        These hubs are covered in Sutherland's Handbook of coaster Brake and Internal Gear Hubs, on sheldonbrown.com.-- http://sheldonbrown.com/sutherland.html

                        At 11:07 AM 5/16/2014, brucemetras@... [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
                         

                        Other than the differences in the coaster brake, the Sachs A2110 hub is basically the same ... there are diagrams at hubstripping as well as Jens' site on Sachs torpedo hubs.

                        F&S / Torpedo AUTOMATIC
                        F&S / Torpedo AUTOMATIC
                        Fichtel & Sachs Torpedo AUTOMATIC (A 2110) General: When the AUTOMATIC hub was developed the DUOMATIC hub was already on the market. This was the Wi...

                        John S. Allen

                        Technical Writer/Editor,  http://sheldonbrown.com

                        League Cycling Instructor #77-C

                        jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
                        http://bikexprt.com
                        http://john-s-allen.com/blog
                        http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts

                      • John Allen
                        Thanks to some help from Aaron Goss, there is now a page on sheldonbrwon.com about the SRAM Automatix 2-speed cable-less hub.
                        Message 11 of 19 , Feb 27, 2016
                          Thanks to some help from Aaron Goss, there is now a page on
                          sheldonbrwon.com about the SRAM Automatix 2-speed cable-less hub.

                          http://sheldonbrown.com/automatix.html

                          John S. Allen

                          Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

                          League Cycling Instructor #77-C

                          jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
                          http://bikexprt.com
                          http://john-s-allen.com/blog
                          http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts
                        • Mike
                          John: Thanks for creating this webpage. About two years ago I considered having an Automatix hub built up for an old steel-frame bike, but never followed
                          Message 12 of 19 , Feb 27, 2016
                            John:

                            Thanks for creating this webpage.  About two years ago I considered having an Automatix hub built up for an old steel-frame bike, but never followed through on it.  At that time, I tried to find out the actual shift point at which the hub would shift up to "high" gear, and the shift point at which it would shift down to "low gear" (I assume that there's a bit of hysteresis between these two points), but I always got confused with the published and "review test" reports because I could never seem to get straight exactly what the wheel size was for the measured shift point(s).

                            Do you know, by chance, what the RPM shift point(s) are for this hub?  With this information, I suspect that it is pretty straight-forward to calculate the respective shift speed(s) based on the actual wheel/tire diameter.  Also, what are the two gear ratios?  I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that one of the hub gear ratios is 1.0, but the other one is ???

                            Some of the info that I came across (two years ago) indicated that there were possibly a few different versions of the Automatix hub, defined by number of spoke holes (and with different shift points).

                            Thanks!

                            Mike

                            On 02/27/2016 10:24 AM, John Allen jsallen@... [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
                             

                            Thanks to some help from Aaron Goss, there is now a page on
                            sheldonbrwon.com about the SRAM Automatix 2-speed cable-less hub.

                            http://sheldonbrown.com/automatix.html

                            John S. Allen

                            Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

                            League Cycling Instructor #77-C

                            jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
                            http://bikexprt.com
                            http://john-s-allen.com/blog
                            http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts


                          • Mark Stonich
                            IÆve been riding an Automatix on a lovely 1983 Fuji Touring series IV for a couple of years now. One of my favorite bikes. Being 69 y/o and not terribly fit,
                            Message 13 of 19 , Feb 27, 2016
                              I’ve been riding an Automatix on a lovely 1983 Fuji Touring series IV for a couple of years now. One of my favorite bikes. Being 69 y/o and not terribly fit, I’m geared 24/39. So the shift point speed is perfect for my needs. I just got around to putting a computer on it last night, so later today I’ll know what speed the 36h shifts at, with 27 x 1-1/4 tires. 

                              Those without such low gears say the shift point occurs at too low a cadence for experienced cyclists. It’s probably fine for the target market, casual riders. There are YouTube videos that show how to tweak the springs to raise the shift speed.

                              The 28 hole version is for small wheels and shifts at a higher wheel RPM.  28 spokes should be plenty due to the lack of dish.  

                              I believe the ratios are 1:1 and 1:1.38 overdrive. IIRC this gives me 44 and 60 gear inches. There are few hills I have to avoid and I can spin my 153mm cranks well enough that I don’t run out of gear on the flats.

                              I also have the Sturmey 2 speed kickback S2. It looks great and is so frustrating to use I’ve given up on it. OTOH the Automatix looks like something from Wald, but works beautifully. 

                              A couple of very minor negatives. Very occasionally, hitting a bump will cause an unwanted, momentary shift. But it goes right back to the correct gear. Below freezing it feels like the first few shifts are delayed a little, till the grease loosens up. Or maybe not. It could be my legs that have to loosen up. Now with a computer I’ll know. 

                               
                               Mark Stonich 612-824-2372 (home)  
                                BikeSmith Design & Fabrication 612-710-9593 (work & cell)
                                 5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, MN 55417 USA
                                   http://bikesmithdesign.com
                                     https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikesmith/


                              On Feb 27, 2016, at 10:22 AM, Mike mdinolfo@... [Geared_hub_bikes] <Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                              John:

                              Thanks for creating this webpage.  About two years ago I considered having an Automatix hub built up for an old steel-frame bike, but never followed through on it.  At that time, I tried to find out the actual shift point at which the hub would shift up to "high" gear, and the shift point at which it would shift down to "low gear" (I assume that there's a bit of hysteresis between these two points), but I always got confused with the published and "review test" reports because I could never seem to get straight exactly what the wheel size was for the measured shift point(s).

                              Do you know, by chance, what the RPM shift point(s) are for this hub?  With this information, I suspect that it is pretty straight-forward to calculate the respective shift speed(s) based on the actual wheel/tire diameter.  Also, what are the two gear ratios?  I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that one of the hub gear ratios is 1.0, but the other one is ???

                              Some of the info that I came across (two years ago) indicated that there were possibly a few different versions of the Automatix hub, defined by number of spoke holes (and with different shift points).

                              Thanks!

                              Mike

                              On 02/27/2016 10:24 AM, John Allen jsallen@... [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
                               

                              Thanks to some help from Aaron Goss, there is now a page on 
                              sheldonbrwon.com about the SRAM Automatix 2-speed cable-less hub.

                              http://sheldonbrown.com/automatix.html

                              John S. Allen

                              Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

                              League Cycling Instructor #77-C

                              jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
                              http://bikexprt.com
                              http://john-s-allen.com/blog
                              http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts




                            • glw1954
                              How fortuitous that this page just came out. I built up a wheel around the Automatix for my Surly Crosscheck commuter last week! I see a lot of talk about the
                              Message 14 of 19 , Feb 27, 2016
                                How fortuitous that this page just came out. I built up a wheel around the Automatix for my Surly Crosscheck commuter last week! I see a lot of talk about the shift point being off, but I think people might be trying to gear it too high. I live in a hilly place, Oslo, so I set the direct drive at 42/23. That is low enough, barely, to get up the steep parts, and the high gives you 68 gear inches, not far from where you could reasonably set up a fixie.

                                It shifts about where it should on a commuter with studded winter tires, maybe it would stand a 21 tooth in the spring when those heavy tires come off.

                                I love the solid clunk when it shifts, and the coaster brake, too. It is nice and grabby but easily modulated, too. All in all, I'm super pleased and would recommend it to anyone looking for a simple commuter gear that really shifts for itself!
                              • John Allen
                                ... You re welcome! ... That can be calculated from the charts in McCraw s article linked from mine. At 10 mph a bicycle is going 14.7 ft/second, 447 cm/sec
                                Message 15 of 19 , Feb 27, 2016
                                  At 11:22 AM 2/27/2016, Mike mdinolfo@... [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
                                  >
                                  >John:
                                  >
                                  >Thanks for creating this webpage.

                                  You're welcome!

                                  >About two years ago I considered having an Automatix hub built up
                                  >for an old steel-frame bike, but never followed through on it. At
                                  >that time, I tried to find out the actual shift point at which the
                                  >hub would shift up to "high" gear, and the shift point at which it
                                  >would shift down to "low gear" (I assume that there's a bit of
                                  >hysteresis between these two points), but I always got confused with
                                  >the published and "review test" reports because I could never seem
                                  >to get straight exactly what the wheel size was for the measured
                                  >shift point(s).
                                  >
                                  >Do you know, by chance, what the RPM shift point(s) are for this
                                  >hub? With this information, I suspect that it is pretty
                                  >straight-forward to calculate the respective shift speed(s) based on
                                  >the actual wheel/tire diameter.

                                  That can be calculated from the charts in McCraw's article linked
                                  from mine. At 10 mph a bicycle is going 14.7 ft/second, 447 cm/sec
                                  and the circumference of a 26" or 700C bicycle wheel is about 200 cm,
                                  so the shift occurs around 2.2 turns per second or 135 RPM. This is
                                  for the unmodified hub. McCraw's modification raises it to around 200 RPM.

                                  I don't know the hysteresis, and McCraw doesn't discuss it, but there
                                  must be some or else the hub would shift too often.

                                  >Also, what are the two gear ratios? I assume (perhaps incorrectly)
                                  >that one of the hub gear ratios is 1.0, but the other one is ???

                                  1.00 and 1.36, see
                                  https://www.sram.com/sram/urban/products/automatix. I've added this
                                  information to the article.

                                  >Some of the info that I came across (two years ago) indicated that
                                  >there were possibly a few different versions of the Automatix hub,
                                  >defined by number of spoke holes (and with different shift points).

                                  SRAM offers no data but this article says that there are:
                                  http://www.bike-eu.com/home/nieuws/2011/4/sram-introduces-auto-shifting-2-speed-1016870

                                  John S. Allen

                                  Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

                                  League Cycling Instructor #77-C

                                  jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
                                  http://bikexprt.com
                                  http://john-s-allen.com/blog
                                  http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts
                                • Michael Wilson
                                  I put an old Sachs automatic on a bike. It required me to back off the pedal effort for it to downshift. Is that true of the new Automatix as well? I found
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Feb 28, 2016
                                    I put an old Sachs automatic on a bike.  It required me to back off the pedal effort for it to downshift.  Is that true of the new Automatix as well?  I found that unacceptable in my riding.

                                    I can power downshift the rear derailleur on a hill with basically no issues.  The front derailleur on my bikes has too high a chance of chain suck so I do not do that.  I could do the engineering to prevent that but I have not bothered yet.

                                    Michael Wilson

                                  • John Allen
                                    Someone else will have to answer this. Aaron Goss provided most of the information for my article: I haven t had one of these hubs in use myself. I expect that
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Feb 28, 2016
                                      Someone else will have to answer this. Aaron Goss
                                      provided most of the information for my article:
                                      I haven't had one of these hubs in use myself. I
                                      expect that backing off will be required though,
                                      because otherwise the pawls for the higher gear wouldn't release.

                                      At 12:10 PM 2/28/2016, Michael Wilson
                                      mtwils@... [Geared_hub_bikes] wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >I put an old Sachs automatic on a bike. It
                                      >required me to back off the pedal effort for it
                                      >to downshift. Is that true of the new
                                      >Automatix as well? I found that unacceptable in my riding.
                                      >
                                      >I can power downshift the rear derailleur on a
                                      >hill with basically no issues. The front
                                      >derailleur on my bikes has too high a chance of
                                      >chain suck so I do not do that. I could do the
                                      >engineering to prevent that but I have not bothered yet.
                                      >
                                      >Michael Wilson

                                      John S. Allen

                                      Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

                                      League Cycling Instructor #77-C

                                      jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
                                      http://bikexprt.com
                                      http://john-s-allen.com/blog
                                      http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts
                                    • Mark Stonich
                                      ... That must be true, but I’ve been riding the Fuji for the past 3 weeks and I don’t remember ever “Consciously” letting off to let the pawls release.
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Feb 28, 2016
                                        On Feb 28, 2016, at 11:05 PM, John Allen jsallen@... [Geared_hub_bikes] <Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                        Someone else will have to answer this. Aaron Goss 
                                        provided most of the information for my article: 
                                        I haven't had one of these hubs in use myself. I 
                                        expect that backing off will be required though, 
                                        because otherwise the pawls for the higher gear wouldn't release.

                                        That must be true, but I’ve been riding the Fuji for the past 3 weeks and I don’t remember ever “Consciously” letting off to let the pawls release.

                                        BTW the computer I installed has a slow refresh rate so it’s hard to be exact about the shift point. But I’d read it’s at 10.5mph and that seems about right.

                                         Mark Stonich 612-824-2372 (home)  
                                          BikeSmith Design & Fabrication 612-710-9593 (work & cell)
                                           5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, MN 55417 USA
                                             http://bikesmithdesign.com
                                               https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikesmith/
                                      • Bruce Metras
                                        The shifting internals are basically the same between the Sachs and SRAM Automatics.. I ve run them for years and have adjusted the shift points via the
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Feb 29, 2016
                                          The shifting internals are basically the same between the Sachs and SRAM Automatics.. I've run them for years and have adjusted the shift points via the springs (even winding my own) ... the bikes I ride have shift points between 13 and 14 mph.. wheel sizes that I run vary from 406 to 700c .. as the hub shifts using flyweights and springs, any downshift will need to be below shift point.. the beauty of the hub allows you to pedal below shift point if you keep pressure on the pedals.... this allows slugging up a hill if you wish at a lower pedal cadence..  as soon as you release pressure, it drops to the lower gear allowing you to get up that hill.. of course, it is always in low gear starting from a stop.. very reliable hub..



                                           
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