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S3X Axle Threads

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  • Steven Johnson
    In doing my personal best to help the market absorb all of of the S3X hubs SA is making, I have two.   The first is on a 2000 Bianchi Pista, and has at least
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 5, 2014
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      In doing my personal best to help the market absorb all of of the S3X hubs SA is making, I have two.
       
      The first is on a 2000 Bianchi Pista, and has at least 4,000 miles on it. I have not had many problems with it.
       
      The other is on a Nashbar fixed gear alu frame, and has probably less than 500 miles. It feels like the right hand nut is stripped, and the wheel is moving a bit. (Frame is a 60, and is a bit too big for me. Anyone have a 58 for a trade. I know kind of dumb for $100 frame.)
       
      I have not taken it apart yet so see if the axle threads are buggered, or the nut.
       
      Has anyone had this happen?
       
      Where would I buy a new nut, or a new axle? I hope to run a die over it, and a tap through the nut. Might try and shorten the chain to get the axle closer to the inside end of the track end.
       
      The dropout on the frame has some stainless steel inserts (slippery), so I have torqued down the bolts probably more than I should have to tighten. It does not shift as nice as the high mileage hub, so I will probably take it apart to have a look. It is doing roller duty now. Likely does not help with the anti-rotation flat axle thing going on too.
       
      Love my S3X Bianchi, and have it under 20 lbs.
       
      [I hope Yahoo does not append this to the thread I am replying "to all" on.]
       
      Steven Johnson, Millersville, MD
    • Doug Litchfield
      Hello Steven, I too have two S3X hubs in service (with a third waiting for spring). I have had similar problems with axle nuts. IMHO they are junk. That said,
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 5, 2014
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        Hello Steven,

        I too have two S3X hubs in service (with a third waiting for spring).
        I have had similar problems with axle nuts.
        IMHO they are junk.
        That said, I believe they are made so that they strip before you damage the axle threading.
        I would suspect the axle threading is fine.
        If not, the threading is, iirc 13/32...good luck.
        I have, on one hub, resorted to using old Sturmey axle nuts, as they seem to be made of steel not zinc or whatever they are made of now.
        This is likely overkill but, I carry a spare set with my tools.
        As for the anti rotation washers, I have heard they are somewhat fragile.
        Though I have had no problems, it might behoove you to get a spare set of them as well, if you need to wrench down on them hard.
        As far as shifting, be sure the cones and lock nuts are adjusted properly!
        If not the hubs "develop" large neutral positions.
        A very bad thing for health and safety!!!
        Also you must use the correct right axle nut length for proper shifting.

        Doug Litchfield
        Rock springs,WY


        On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 8:31 AM, Steven Johnson <ebatnye@...> wrote:
         

        In doing my personal best to help the market absorb all of of the S3X hubs SA is making, I have two.
         
        The first is on a 2000 Bianchi Pista, and has at least 4,000 miles on it. I have not had many problems with it.
         
        The other is on a Nashbar fixed gear alu frame, and has probably less than 500 miles. It feels like the right hand nut is stripped, and the wheel is moving a bit. (Frame is a 60, and is a bit too big for me. Anyone have a 58 for a trade. I know kind of dumb for $100 frame.)
         
        I have not taken it apart yet so see if the axle threads are buggered, or the nut.
         
        Has anyone had this happen?
         
        Where would I buy a new nut, or a new axle? I hope to run a die over it, and a tap through the nut. Might try and shorten the chain to get the axle closer to the inside end of the track end.
         
        The dropout on the frame has some stainless steel inserts (slippery), so I have torqued down the bolts probably more than I should have to tighten. It does not shift as nice as the high mileage hub, so I will probably take it apart to have a look. It is doing roller duty now. Likely does not help with the anti-rotation flat axle thing going on too.
         
        Love my S3X Bianchi, and have it under 20 lbs.
         
        [I hope Yahoo does not append this to the thread I am replying "to all" on.]
         
        Steven Johnson, Millersville, MD


      • John S. Allen
        ... Yes, that has, thankfully, always been the case with Sturmey-Archer axle nuts. ... 13/32 x 26 TPI. The Sachs flared axle nut used on hubs with pull chains
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 5, 2014
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          At 11:51 AM 1/5/2014, Doug Litchfield wrote:
           

          Hello Steven,

          I too have two S3X hubs in service (with a third waiting for spring).
          I have had similar problems with axle nuts.
          IMHO they are junk.
          That said, I believe they are made so that they strip before you damage the axle threading.

          Yes, that has, thankfully, always been the case with Sturmey-Archer axle nuts.

          I would suspect the axle threading is fine.
          If not, the threading is, iirc 13/32...good luck.

          13/32 x 26 TPI. The Sachs flared axle nut used on hubs with pull chains also might work.

          I have, on one hub, resorted to using old Sturmey axle nuts, as they seem to be made of steel not zinc or whatever they are made of now.

          Yes, this is the same size axle nuts Sturmey-Archer has used for 75 years or more.

          This is likely overkill but, I carry a spare set with my tools.
          As for the anti rotation washers, I have heard they are somewhat fragile.
          Though I have had no problems, it might behoove you to get a spare set of them as well, if you need to wrench down on them hard.
          As far as shifting, be sure the cones and lock nuts are adjusted properly!
          If not the hubs "develop" large neutral positions.
          A very bad thing for health and safety!!!
          Also you must use the correct right axle nut length for proper shifting.

          I suggest using the longer flared axle nut (they come in two lengths). Older ones may be better, I don't know. Select spacers to get as much thread engagement as you can. The S3X comes in two axle lengths, though the axle protrusion on the right side is the same for both..

          The newer Sturmey-Archer anti-rotation washers with a single tab allow the axle to twist in the 9.5 mm wide dropout slots of newer frames, which do not engage the 7.8 mm flats of Sturmey-Archer flatted axles. With a 9.5 mm slot, I suggest using the older type. anti-rotation washers, or two of the single-tab ones, one at the inside and one at the outside, on each end of the axle, with tabs facing in opposite directions. If the overlocknut spacing of the frame and slot length don't leave room for this and for full thread engagement of the flared nut, then your best bet is the HMW494 anti-rotation washers, see http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer_tech.html .

          Also, adjustable chain tensioners can relieve the pull from the chain on the anti-rotation washers. But then the chain tensioners would have to be inside the dropouts and the anti-rotation washers on the outside, or vice versa.

          John S. Allen

          Technical Writer/Editor,  http://sheldonbrown.com

          League Cycling Instructor #77-C

          jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
          http://bikexprt.com
          http://john-s-allen.com/blog
          http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts

        • Steven Johnson
          Doug, I was hoping that the nuts were softer steel. I am amazed at how hard the parts are inside the hub (I tried to make an AW into a 2 speed fixed.) Biggest
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 5, 2014
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          Doug,

          I was hoping that the nuts were softer steel. I am amazed at how hard the parts are inside the hub (I tried to make an AW into a 2 speed fixed.)

          Biggest issue I have had with my higher mileage hub is having to tighten the cones once a month or so.

          The lower mileage hub seems to have more gear lash, but has only loosened up once in the last year. I am going to try some nuts from some older SA hubs.


          [I grew up in Laramie, and graduated from UW.]

          Steven Johnson, Millersville, MD




          On Sunday, January 5, 2014 11:51 AM, Doug Litchfield <douglitchfield@...> wrote:
           
          Hello Steven,

          I too have two S3X hubs in service (with a third waiting for spring).
          I have had similar problems with axle nuts.
          IMHO they are junk.
          That said, I believe they are made so that they strip before you damage the axle threading.
          I would suspect the axle threading is fine.
          If not, the threading is, iirc 13/32...good luck.
          I have, on one hub, resorted to using old Sturmey axle nuts, as they seem to be made of steel not zinc or whatever they are made of now.
          This is likely overkill but, I carry a spare set with my tools.
          As for the anti rotation washers, I have heard they are somewhat fragile.
          Though I have had no problems, it might behoove you to get a spare set of them as well, if you need to wrench down on them hard.
          As far as shifting, be sure the cones and lock nuts are adjusted properly!
          If not the hubs "develop" large neutral positions.
          A very bad thing for health and safety!!!
          Also you must use the correct right axle nut length for proper shifting.

          Doug Litchfield
          Rock springs,WY


          On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 8:31 AM, Steven Johnson <ebatnye@...> wrote:
           
          In doing my personal best to help the market absorb all of of the S3X hubs SA is making, I have two.
           
          The first is on a 2000 Bianchi Pista, and has at least 4,000 miles on it. I have not had many problems with it.
           
          The other is on a Nashbar fixed gear alu frame, and has probably less than 500 miles. It feels like the right hand nut is stripped, and the wheel is moving a bit. (Frame is a 60, and is a bit too big for me. Anyone have a 58 for a trade. I know kind of dumb for $100 frame.)
           
          I have not taken it apart yet so see if the axle threads are buggered, or the nut.
           
          Has anyone had this happen?
           
          Where would I buy a new nut, or a new axle? I hope to run a die over it, and a tap through the nut. Might try and shorten the chain to get the axle closer to the inside end of the track end.
           
          The dropout on the frame has some stainless steel inserts (slippery), so I have torqued down the bolts probably more than I should have to tighten. It does not shift as nice as the high mileage hub, so I will probably take it apart to have a look. It is doing roller duty now. Likely does not help with the anti-rotation flat axle thing going on too.
           
          Love my S3X Bianchi, and have it under 20 lbs.
           
          [I hope Yahoo does not append this to the thread I am replying "to all" on.]
           
          Steven Johnson, Millersville, MD



        • Doug Litchfield
          Hello Steven, I got a modified AW two speed fixed from a guy in Texas years ago. He used a milling machine. Are the S3X s different vintages? There was talk
          Message 5 of 11 , Jan 5, 2014
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            Hello Steven,

            I got a modified AW two speed fixed from a guy in Texas years ago.
            He  used a milling machine.
            Are the S3X's different vintages?
            There was talk of the first batch being different from the subsequent issues.
            Couldn't prove it by me!

            (Told myself I was just passing thru....Eight years ago!)

            Doug Litchfield
            Rock Springs,WY


            On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:40 PM, Steven Johnson <ebatnye@...> wrote:
             
            [Attachment(s) from Steven Johnson included below]

            Doug,

            I was hoping that the nuts were softer steel. I am amazed at how hard the parts are inside the hub (I tried to make an AW into a 2 speed fixed.)

            Biggest issue I have had with my higher mileage hub is having to tighten the cones once a month or so.

            The lower mileage hub seems to have more gear lash, but has only loosened up once in the last year. I am going to try some nuts from some older SA hubs.


            [I grew up in Laramie, and graduated from UW.]

            Steven Johnson, Millersville, MD




            On Sunday, January 5, 2014 11:51 AM, Doug Litchfield <douglitchfield@...> wrote:
             
            Hello Steven,

            I too have two S3X hubs in service (with a third waiting for spring).
            I have had similar problems with axle nuts.
            IMHO they are junk.
            That said, I believe they are made so that they strip before you damage the axle threading.
            I would suspect the axle threading is fine.
            If not, the threading is, iirc 13/32...good luck.
            I have, on one hub, resorted to using old Sturmey axle nuts, as they seem to be made of steel not zinc or whatever they are made of now.
            This is likely overkill but, I carry a spare set with my tools.
            As for the anti rotation washers, I have heard they are somewhat fragile.
            Though I have had no problems, it might behoove you to get a spare set of them as well, if you need to wrench down on them hard.
            As far as shifting, be sure the cones and lock nuts are adjusted properly!
            If not the hubs "develop" large neutral positions.
            A very bad thing for health and safety!!!
            Also you must use the correct right axle nut length for proper shifting.

            Doug Litchfield
            Rock springs,WY


            On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 8:31 AM, Steven Johnson <ebatnye@...> wrote:
             
            In doing my personal best to help the market absorb all of of the S3X hubs SA is making, I have two.
             
            The first is on a 2000 Bianchi Pista, and has at least 4,000 miles on it. I have not had many problems with it.
             
            The other is on a Nashbar fixed gear alu frame, and has probably less than 500 miles. It feels like the right hand nut is stripped, and the wheel is moving a bit. (Frame is a 60, and is a bit too big for me. Anyone have a 58 for a trade. I know kind of dumb for $100 frame.)
             
            I have not taken it apart yet so see if the axle threads are buggered, or the nut.
             
            Has anyone had this happen?
             
            Where would I buy a new nut, or a new axle? I hope to run a die over it, and a tap through the nut. Might try and shorten the chain to get the axle closer to the inside end of the track end.
             
            The dropout on the frame has some stainless steel inserts (slippery), so I have torqued down the bolts probably more than I should have to tighten. It does not shift as nice as the high mileage hub, so I will probably take it apart to have a look. It is doing roller duty now. Likely does not help with the anti-rotation flat axle thing going on too.
             
            Love my S3X Bianchi, and have it under 20 lbs.
             
            [I hope Yahoo does not append this to the thread I am replying "to all" on.]
             
            Steven Johnson, Millersville, MD




          • Steven Johnson
            Doug,   On of the hubs I got from ebay, the other through the shop I work with. Both were in unbuilt condition. Great difference in price. It could be one of
            Message 6 of 11 , Jan 6, 2014
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              Doug,
               
              On of the hubs I got from ebay, the other through the shop I work with. Both were in unbuilt condition. Great difference in price. It could be one of them is first run, but I am not sure how to tell, or where or if they made design changes.
               
              Would be an interesting webpage for someone in the know.
               
              <Swaying close to off topic>
              I-80 delivered many folks to various parts of Wyoming who were just passing through. Miss it bad, and the 7,200 ft altitude.
              I tried to save the dog:
              Danny B was the best, Charles is a Lawyer in town, and Rex is in TX. Rex was an awesome sprinter. Miss the short summer days of long rides, and only being passed by a very rare delvery truck. It was always fun to take I-80 back to Laramie, bored people driving cross coutry would always be fascinated. (In WY you can ride on the interstate.)
               
              Highest point on I-80 is the summit between Laramie and Cheyenne, with the scariest bronze bust of Lincoln (Lincoln Hwy). When I was a kid in the 60s, there used to be a bike ride/race to the top. Most of the riders used three speeds, but I can remember the buzz when some riders showed up with derailleur bikes, and smoked everyone. Three speed bikes were great for getting around town, and I had a five speed SA hubbed bike from Sears my cousin let me use.
               
              Thomas Stevens also spent some time in Laramie.
              <Whoops, sorry>
               
               
              Steven Johnson, Millersville, MD
            • prester_john_in_cathay
              13/32 x 26 TPI. ... this is the same size axle nuts Sturmey-Archer has used for 75 years or more. The newish RSRF3 uses 3/8x26 axle threads, like Shimano.
              Message 7 of 11 , Jan 6, 2014
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                "13/32 x 26 TPI. ... this is the same size axle nuts Sturmey-Archer has used for 75 years or more."


                The newish RSRF3 uses 3/8x26 axle threads, like Shimano.  There's a picture in my photo album of the two different Sturmey nuts, each marked on the end with their thread size.

              • John S. Allen
                ... Yes, this one hub, with rotary shifting, has a solid axle, so the axle diameter can be smaller. It also uses different anti-rotation washers, see
                Message 8 of 11 , Jan 6, 2014
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                  At 07:58 AM 1/6/2014, prester_john_in_cathay@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >"13/32 x 26 TPI. ... this is the same size axle nuts Sturmey-Archer
                  >has used for 75 years or more."
                  >
                  >
                  >The newish RSRF3 uses 3/8x26 axle threads, like Shimano. There's a
                  >picture in my photo album of the two different Sturmey nuts, each
                  >marked on the end with their thread size.

                  Yes, this one hub, with rotary shifting, has a solid axle, so the
                  axle diameter can be smaller.

                  It also uses different anti-rotation washers, see
                  http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer_tech.html#antirotationwasher

                  John S. Allen
                  7 University Park
                  Waltham, MA 02453-1523 USA
                  781 891-9307
                  jsallen@...
                  http://bikexprt.com
                • prester_john_in_cathay
                  It also uses different anti-rotation washers... Or does it? See: http://www.sturmey-archer.com/userfiles/manuals/RXRD3-Tech.pdf pj
                  Message 9 of 11 , Jan 6, 2014
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                    "It also uses different anti-rotation washers..."


                    Or does it?  See:

                    http://www.sturmey-archer.com/userfiles/manuals/RXRD3-Tech.pdf


                    pj

                  • John S. Allen
                    ... I have an X-RF8 8-speed hub which is described in the parts list at http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/pdfs/8spd-xrf8-techinfo.pdf as using the HMW515
                    Message 10 of 11 , Jan 6, 2014
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                      At 04:51 PM 1/6/2014, prester_john_in_cathay@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >"It also uses different anti-rotation washers..."
                      >
                      >
                      >Or does it? See:
                      >
                      >http://www.sturmey-archer.com/userfiles/manuals/RXRD3-Tech.pdf

                      I have an X-RF8 8-speed hub which is described in the parts list at
                      http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/pdfs/8spd-xrf8-techinfo.pdf as
                      using the HMW515 or HMW518 antirotation washers. This hub has a
                      13/32" axle -- I checked that by threading on a bearing cone from an
                      AW. The newer 8-speed hubs also have a 13/32 axle, see
                      http://www.sturmey-archer.com/userfiles/manuals/XRD8-Tech.pdf

                      On the same parts list you cite, the RXRD3 is described as using 3/8"
                      threaded axle nuts. HMW515 and HMW518 13/32" antirotation washers
                      would be a very sloppy fit on the 3/8" axle of the RX-RD3, though
                      indeed, as you note, they are listed in the parts list for that hub.

                      I got the specs for this and the HMW530 from the 2010 Sturmey-Archer
                      catalog, and here's the 2012-2013 catalog:
                      http://www.sturmey-archer.com/userfiles/catalogs/Sturmey-Archer-2012-2013-Catalogue-A0-Low-Res.pdf
                      . The antirotation washers for the rotary 3-speeds with 3/8" axle
                      are listed on page 18 as the HMW521 and HMW530. The 3-speed hubs
                      with rotary shifting are listed on page 58 as having a 3/8" axle.

                      So, either there is a mistake in the spec sheet at
                      http://www.sturmey-archer.com/userfiles/manuals/RXRD3-Tech.pdf or S-A
                      is substituting poorly-fitting washers for better-fitting ones. .

                      John S. Allen
                      7 University Park
                      Waltham, MA 02453-1523 USA
                      781 891-9307
                      jsallen@...
                      http://bikexprt.com
                    • prester_john_in_cathay
                      So, either there is a mistake in the spec sheet ... or S-A is substituting poorly-fitting washers for better-fitting ones. My RSRF3 came with HMW521s,
                      Message 11 of 11 , Jan 8, 2014
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                        "So, either there is a mistake in the spec sheet ... or S-A 

                        is substituting poorly-fitting washers for better-fitting ones."

                        My RSRF3 came with HMW521s, stamped "3/8", so I'm guessing the former.

                        pj
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