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Biased owners/moderators

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  • wilhelmfrankl2000
    I m currently enrolled in a marketing program of studies at a local community college. Needless to say brick-and-mortar retailing vs. online selling has been
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 14, 2013

      I'm currently enrolled in a marketing program of studies at a local community college. Needless to say  brick-and-mortar retailing vs. online selling has been a hot topic. I've rently been assigned a paper on the issue with a focus of my own choosing. As an avid cyclist, naturally enough I've decided to look at how the cyclist's community views this issue.

      I've spent some time in reading this group's relevant postings. I intend to discuss with the instructer their validity and usefulness as the moderatos', extremely pro-LBS, seem to exert a heavy handed influence nearing a censorship-like approach to discussion of the issue.   

        Regards, Willy



       

    • jpbabic
      Dude, I don t know you but I think you are reading *way* too much into this. Please feel free to shop online. I do, as I have purchased my last bike through
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 15, 2013
        Dude, I don't know you but I think you are reading *way* too much into this.

        Please feel free to shop online. I do, as I have purchased my last bike through BikesDirect myself.

        Please stop projecting your outlook of online v. local shopping onto members of this group.

        Please be certain to include this in your discussion with your instructor.

        Best wishes for you, and your studies.

        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <wilhelmfrankl2000@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm currently enrolled in a marketing program of studies at a local community college. Needless to say brick-and-mortar retailing vs. online selling has been a hot topic. I've rently been assigned a paper on the issue with a focus of my own choosing. As an avid cyclist, naturally enough I've decided to look at how the cyclist's community views this issue.
        >
        > I've spent some time in reading this group's relevant postings. I intend to discuss with the instructer their validity and usefulness as the moderatos', extremely pro-LBS, seem to exert a heavy handed influence nearing a censorship-like approach to discussion of the issue.
        >
        > Regards, Willy
        >
      • astronut1001
        As group owner I am not sure where you are coming from. Your statement implies censorship and i do not normally do so on this forum. Also it is worded to
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 15, 2013

           As group owner I am not sure where you are coming from.  Your statement implies censorship and i do not normally do so on this forum.  Also it is worded to intentionally stir the S--t pot.  I have bought both ways and do a lot of online purchasing, primarily through Amazon.  Opinions are like derrieres, everyone has one.

           

          This subject has been endlessly debated on the web and my own feeling is that on-line purchase of a bicycle is appropriate for some people and frequently a disaster for others, primarily those with minimal mechanical ability and and few tools correct for working on a bicycle.  If the mechanical boob buys a bike online and does not have it assembled and checked by a good LBS then he/she is asking for trouble IMO.  Some potentially severe enough to cause severe injury or even death.

           

          I might also note that this group is oriented towards a particular form of bike and if you look then you will note many older discussions of the fact that few LBS's know anything about IGH bikes or are prepared to help with technical issues.  The owners of a number of IGH oriented retail shops are members here and help provide good technical support to other members.  One reason to support LBSs is to keep these supporters in business.

           

          Another reason is to keep the LBS available for emergency parts and repairs.  If the LBS disappears due to online competition what do you need for true mechanical disasters such as chain breakage or derailleur failure?  Are you equipped to correct a damaged frame and derailleur hanger due to a rear derailleur major failure?  LBS's see such damage routinely.  How about replacing worn sprockets and casettes or retruing wheels or replacing broken spokes on one? 

           

          I could go on but basically this is a discussion which has been repeated ad-nauseum on Bike Forums and it is not reallly appropriate on a group which is primarily oriented towards the discussion of and support for a particular form of bicycle gear changing mechanism so lets end it.

           

          Rich Wood



          ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <wilhelmfrankl2000@...> wrote:

          I'm currently enrolled in a marketing program of studies at a local community college. Needless to say  brick-and-mortar retailing vs. online selling has been a hot topic. I've rently been assigned a paper on the issue with a focus of my own choosing. As an avid cyclist, naturally enough I've decided to look at how the cyclist's community views this issue.

          I've spent some time in reading this group's relevant postings. I intend to discuss with the instructer their validity and usefulness as the moderatos', extremely pro-LBS, seem to exert a heavy handed influence nearing a censorship-like approach to discussion of the issue.   

            Regards, Willy



           

        • Colin Bryant
          Great reply, Rich.  For the most part, I see you as a member of this list, with your opions being your own, but thanks for the work that you put in to
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 15, 2013
            Great reply, Rich.  For the most part, I see you as a member of this list, with your opions being your own, but thanks for the work that you put in to maintain things.

            My local LBS got most of my business, when I upgraded my bike to an IGH and disk brakes.  When I had difficulty with the IGH, they were there to help me and communicate with the manufacturer.  My view might be different, if they did not stock IGH equipped bikes and employ a mechanic who could work on them.

            At the same time, I do some ordering online, when appropriate.  I buy brake pads, five at a time (good price + quantity discount), from an company in England.

             
            --

            Colin
            Vancouver, Canada

             


            From: "astronut1001@..." <astronut1001@...>
            To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 6:57:45 AM
            Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] RE: Biased owners/moderators

             
             As group owner I am not sure where you are coming from.  Your statement implies censorship and i do not normally do so on this forum.  Also it is worded to intentionally stir the S--t pot.  I have bought both ways and do a lot of online purchasing, primarily through Amazon.  Opinions are like derrieres, everyone has one.
             
            This subject has been endlessly debated on the web and my own feeling is that on-line purchase of a bicycle is appropriate for some people and frequently a disaster for others, primarily those with minimal mechanical ability and and few tools correct for working on a bicycle.  If the mechanical boob buys a bike online and does not have it assembled and checked by a good LBS then he/she is asking for trouble IMO.  Some potentially severe enough to cause severe injury or even death.
             
            I might also note that this group is oriented towards a particular form of bike and if you look then you will note many older discussions of the fact that few LBS's know anything about IGH bikes or are prepared to help with technical issues.  The owners of a number of IGH oriented retail shops are members here and help provide good technical support to other members.  One reason to support LBSs is to keep these supporters in business.
             
            Another reason is to keep the LBS available for emergency parts and repairs.  If the LBS disappears due to online competition what do you need for true mechanical disasters such as chain breakage or derailleur failure?  Are you equipped to correct a damaged frame and derailleur hanger due to a rear derailleur major failure?  LBS's see such damage routinely.  How about replacing worn sprockets and casettes or retruing wheels or replacing broken spokes on one? 
             
            I could go on but basically this is a discussion which has been repeated ad-nauseum on Bike Forums and it is not reallly appropriate on a group which is primarily oriented towards the discussion of and support for a particular form of bicycle gear changing mechanism so lets end it.
             
            Rich Wood


            ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <wilhelmfrankl2000@...> wrote:

            I'm currently enrolled in a marketing program of studies at a local community college. Needless to say  brick-and-mortar retailing vs. online selling has been a hot topic. I've rently been assigned a paper on the issue with a focus of my own choosing. As an avid cyclist, naturally enough I've decided to look at how the cyclist's community views this issue.

            I've spent some time in reading this group's relevant postings. I intend to discuss with the instructer their validity and usefulness as the moderatos', extremely pro-LBS, seem to exert a heavy handed influence nearing a censorship-like approach to discussion of the issue.   

              Regards, Willy



             


          • stephen lewis
            Hi Willy a view from an English bloke in Singapore. All cyclists should have it encoded that unless completely incompetent the LBS must be supported.
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 15, 2013
              Hi Willy
              a view from an English bloke in Singapore.
              All cyclists should have it encoded that unless completely incompetent the LBS must be supported. However, in Singapore, there's absolutely no doubt that hardware is cheaper and in a greater range from the net. Bike stores here are usually brand specific so can't always supply what you want. From the web (usually Chainreaction) delivery is fast and efficient and the product range vast. As an example, for my Nexus and Alfine IGH's the only source for all the bits and pieces was the net. My LBS placed an order with Shimano for an Alfine oil kit and after weeks of hearing nothing, they got nothing from Shimano. I had no choice but to go to the net.
              For maintenance and repairs bike shops like hairdressers are a fractionated business. If your bike is broke you need someone near who'll fix it. Bike shops know that and turnaround times are excellent. The business models for bike shops here seems to be sell new bikes and do simple maintenance. If it's broke replace.
              Regards
              Stephen
               
               


              On Saturday, 16 November 2013, 5:14, Colin Bryant <sk8ski2004@...> wrote:
               
              Great reply, Rich.  For the most part, I see you as a member of this list, with your opions being your own, but thanks for the work that you put in to maintain things.

              My local LBS got most of my business, when I upgraded my bike to an IGH and disk brakes.  When I had difficulty with the IGH, they were there to help me and communicate with the manufacturer.  My view might be different, if they did not stock IGH equipped bikes and employ a mechanic who could work on them.

              At the same time, I do some ordering online, when appropriate.  I buy brake pads, five at a time (good price + quantity discount), from an company in England.

               
              --

              Colin
              Vancouver, Canada

               

              From: "astronut1001@..." <astronut1001@...>
              To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 6:57:45 AM
              Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] RE: Biased owners/moderators

               
               As group owner I am not sure where you are coming from.  Your statement implies censorship and i do not normally do so on this forum.  Also it is worded to intentionally stir the S--t pot.  I have bought both ways and do a lot of online purchasing, primarily through Amazon.  Opinions are like derrieres, everyone has one.
               
              This subject has been endlessly debated on the web and my own feeling is that on-line purchase of a bicycle is appropriate for some people and frequently a disaster for others, primarily those with minimal mechanical ability and and few tools correct for working on a bicycle.  If the mechanical boob buys a bike online and does not have it assembled and checked by a good LBS then he/she is asking for trouble IMO.  Some potentially severe enough to cause severe injury or even death.
               
              I might also note that this group is oriented towards a particular form of bike and if you look then you will note many older discussions of the fact that few LBS's know anything about IGH bikes or are prepared to help with technical issues.  The owners of a number of IGH oriented retail shops are members here and help provide good technical support to other members.  One reason to support LBSs is to keep these supporters in business.
               
              Another reason is to keep the LBS available for emergency parts and repairs.  If the LBS disappears due to online competition what do you need for true mechanical disasters such as chain breakage or derailleur failure?  Are you equipped to correct a damaged frame and derailleur hanger due to a rear derailleur major failure?  LBS's see such damage routinely.  How about replacing worn sprockets and casettes or retruing wheels or replacing broken spokes on one? 
               
              I could go on but basically this is a discussion which has been repeated ad-nauseum on Bike Forums and it is not reallly appropriate on a group which is primarily oriented towards the discussion of and support for a particular form of bicycle gear changing mechanism so lets end it.
               
              Rich Wood


              ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <wilhelmfrankl2000@...> wrote:

              I'm currently enrolled in a marketing program of studies at a local community college. Needless to say  brick-and-mortar retailing vs. online selling has been a hot topic. I've rently been assigned a paper on the issue with a focus of my own choosing. As an avid cyclist, naturally enough I've decided to look at how the cyclist's community views this issue.

              I've spent some time in reading this group's relevant postings. I intend to discuss with the instructer their validity and usefulness as the moderatos', extremely pro-LBS, seem to exert a heavy handed influence nearing a censorship-like approach to discussion of the issue.   

                Regards, Willy



               




            • bnexus8
              I haven t noticed any bias by the group owner/moderator and I do not think there is any. My own feeling is that I support my lbs whenever possible but the web
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 16, 2013

                I haven't noticed any bias by the group owner/moderator and I do not think there is any.


                My own feeling is that I support my lbs whenever possible but the web is often cheaper. I ask my lbs how close he can get to the web price and accept that he won't be as cheap, but I can't drink coffee and trade bicycle abuse with a web trader. I have bought three modern Shimano IGH's from my lbs although his mechanic has not got the tools to repair them if it became necessary. For IGH repair I use a specialist shop a couple of hundred miles away and communicate with them by post and email. Maintenance I expect to do myself.


                I'd be interested in your moderator's views on forming opinions from small samples and the use of the apostrophe.



                ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <wilhelmfrankl2000@...> wrote:

                I'm currently enrolled in a marketing program of studies at a local community college. Needless to say  brick-and-mortar retailing vs. online selling has been a hot topic. I've rently been assigned a paper on the issue with a focus of my own choosing. As an avid cyclist, naturally enough I've decided to look at how the cyclist's community views this issue.

                I've spent some time in reading this group's relevant postings. I intend to discuss with the instructer their validity and usefulness as the moderatos', extremely pro-LBS, seem to exert a heavy handed influence nearing a censorship-like approach to discussion of the issue.   

                  Regards, Willy



                 

              • freetobike2012
                I had to take the Alfine 11 up to Toronto to find a shop with folks who were savy about these IGH setups. 6 shops within 10 miles of my hose and not one even
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 16, 2013

                   I had to take the Alfine 11 up to Toronto to find a shop with folks who were savy about these IGH setups.

                  6 shops within 10 miles of my hose and not one even dealt with IGH.

                  Rich Mc


                  ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <sk8ski2004@...> wrote:

                  Great reply, Rich.  For the most part, I see you as a member of this list, with your opions being your own, but thanks for the work that you put in to maintain things.

                  My local LBS got most of my business, when I upgraded my bike to an IGH and disk brakes.  When I had difficulty with the IGH, they were there to help me and communicate with the manufacturer.  My view might be different, if they did not stock IGH equipped bikes and employ a mechanic who could work on them.

                  At the same time, I do some ordering online, when appropriate.  I buy brake pads, five at a time (good price + quantity discount), from an company in England.

                   
                  --

                  Colin
                  Vancouver, Canada

                   


                  From: "astronut1001@..." <astronut1001@...>
                  To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 6:57:45 AM
                  Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] RE: Biased owners/moderators

                   
                   As group owner I am not sure where you are coming from.  Your statement implies censorship and i do not normally do so on this forum.  Also it is worded to intentionally stir the S--t pot.  I have bought both ways and do a lot of online purchasing, primarily through Amazon.  Opinions are like derrieres, everyone has one.
                   
                  This subject has been endlessly debated on the web and my own feeling is that on-line purchase of a bicycle is appropriate for some people and frequently a disaster for others, primarily those with minimal mechanical ability and and few tools correct for working on a bicycle.  If the mechanical boob buys a bike online and does not have it assembled and checked by a good LBS then he/she is asking for trouble IMO.  Some potentially severe enough to cause severe injury or even death.
                   
                  I might also note that this group is oriented towards a particular form of bike and if you look then you will note many older discussions of the fact that few LBS's know anything about IGH bikes or are prepared to help with technical issues.  The owners of a number of IGH oriented retail shops are members here and help provide good technical support to other members.  One reason to support LBSs is to keep these supporters in business.
                   
                  Another reason is to keep the LBS available for emergency parts and repairs.  If the LBS disappears due to online competition what do you need for true mechanical disasters such as chain breakage or derailleur failure?  Are you equipped to correct a damaged frame and derailleur hanger due to a rear derailleur major failure?  LBS's see such damage routinely.  How about replacing worn sprockets and casettes or retruing wheels or replacing broken spokes on one? 
                   
                  I could go on but basically this is a discussion which has been repeated ad-nauseum on Bike Forums and it is not reallly appropriate on a group which is primarily oriented towards the discussion of and support for a particular form of bicycle gear changing mechanism so lets end it.
                   
                  Rich Wood


                  ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <wilhelmfrankl2000@...> wrote:

                  I'm currently enrolled in a marketing program of studies at a local community college. Needless to say  brick-and-mortar retailing vs. online selling has been a hot topic. I've rently been assigned a paper on the issue with a focus of my own choosing. As an avid cyclist, naturally enough I've decided to look at how the cyclist's community views this issue.

                  I've spent some time in reading this group's relevant postings. I intend to discuss with the instructer their validity and usefulness as the moderatos', extremely pro-LBS, seem to exert a heavy handed influence nearing a censorship-like approach to discussion of the issue.   

                    Regards, Willy



                   


                • Andrew Curl
                  Freetobike, when I was a schoolkid I worked as a cycle mechanic. In the UK the most prolific hubs were the Sturmey Archers with the odd Sachs torpedo thrown
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 17, 2013
                    
                    Freetobike, when I was a schoolkid I worked as a cycle mechanic. In the UK the most prolific hubs were the Sturmey Archers with the odd Sachs torpedo thrown in. I could work on these things, but there were several problems with most bike shops- the S.A. replacement wheels were usually stocked and could be easily had off the peg, which cost less than any labour charge, and the things so seldom broke anyway, apart from some of the 4spds, or the 5spds, niether of which you ever saw. This means that when the IGH died, the rest of the bike was probably shagged too, so a new one would be bought. This suited the LBS outfits here because the mark up then was 50%. This was back when a credible bike could be bought with a shop assistant's weekly wage.
                     
                    Although the parts situation was complete, many shops would turn hub repair work away, even if the mechanic could tackle it, due to the Boss's ignorance. Used to drive me nuts, but I did keep a box each of pawls and springs. I was never asked to open either by a customer.
                     
                    Which brings us to the now prevalent problem, known in psychology circles as "learned helplessness". I have lived through a time where I was shown how to "make do and mend" by my grandparents who had lived through WW2, as well as seeing my sister's offspring take on the world with an "oh, its broken, buy a new one" attitude that completely circumvents the slightest possibility of -thinking- how to keep anything maintained or repaired at all.
                     
                    Admittedly, some things now are not made to be dismantled or sorted out. Cars have become too dependent on electronics for the home workshop guy to sort out at the roadside when the engine stops. Back at the dealer garage, the mechanic doesn't know what to do if his computer diagnostic machine can't tell him. American gripes about Lucas car electrics are as nothing to a dodgy german or japanese ICU. Light fittings and washing machine switches are moulded in plastic so you can't get them apart without destroying them. Or, with IGHs back in mind, the manufacturer really can be fairly certain that the average consumer hasn't got a clue and won't try to fix stuff, so there's no need to have spares sitting (unprofitably) on the shelf. Oh yeah, the other major problem?
                     
                    Profitability.
                     
                    Most of us with jobs live better that we did twenty years ago. On the roads, the tin lizzies have been replaced by leather upholstered, air conditioned Mercedes and BMWs with heated seats that can speak your weight. A single bicycle wheel can cost that humble shop assistant far more than a month's wages now. People aspire to own all these things, and pretend to be able to afford and maintain them, too. Even though maintaining stuff has come to mean paying for someone else to maintain it. They have never learned or considered learning how to do it themselves... And who would teach them anyway?
                     
                    The days of Dad having a small lathe and drilling machine, or even a decent set of spanners and screwdrivers in the shed are very nearly over.
                     
                    Thus, society has sucked the common sense out of the common man. The modern, vacant minded masses have gone along with it. When I approached my old bike shop (with officially qualifed mechanics nowadays, of course) about fitting schlumpf speed drives, frame cold-setting, and of course S.A. spares and wheelbuilding, jaws dropped, and eyes glazed over in bewilderment. These might have been trick questions, for I do all these things myself, but the devil in me just wondered what the hell they teach the kids these days. Can they fix a puncture? Or do they only know how to get a new bike out of a packing crate?
                     
                    -Andrew UK
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 1:36 AM
                    Subject: RE: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] RE: Biased owners/moderators

                     

                     I had to take the Alfine 11 up to Toronto to find a shop with folks who were savy about these IGH setups.

                    6 shops within 10 miles of my hose and not one even dealt with IGH.

                    Rich Mc


                    ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <sk8ski2004@...> wrote:

                    Great reply, Rich.  For the most part, I see you as a member of this list, with your opions being your own, but thanks for the work that you put in to maintain things.

                    My local LBS got most of my business, when I upgraded my bike to an IGH and disk brakes.  When I had difficulty with the IGH, they were there to help me and communicate with the manufacturer.  My view might be different, if they did not stock IGH equipped bikes and employ a mechanic who could work on them.

                    At the same time, I do some ordering online, when appropriate.  I buy brake pads, five at a time (good price + quantity discount), from an company in England.

                     
                    --

                    Colin
                    Vancouver, Canada

                     


                    From: "astronut1001@..." <astronut1001@...>
                    To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 6:57:45 AM
                    Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] RE: Biased owners/moderators

                     
                     As group owner I am not sure where you are coming from.  Your statement implies censorship and i do not normally do so on this forum.  Also it is worded to intentionally stir the S--t pot.  I have bought both ways and do a lot of online purchasing, primarily through Amazon.  Opinions are like derrieres, everyone has one.
                     
                    This subject has been endlessly debated on the web and my own feeling is that on-line purchase of a bicycle is appropriate for some people and frequently a disaster for others, primarily those with minimal mechanical ability and and few tools correct for working on a bicycle.  If the mechanical boob buys a bike online and does not have it assembled and checked by a good LBS then he/she is asking for trouble IMO.  Some potentially severe enough to cause severe injury or even death.
                     
                    I might also note that this group is oriented towards a particular form of bike and if you look then you will note many older discussions of the fact that few LBS's know anything about IGH bikes or are prepared to help with technical issues.  The owners of a number of IGH oriented retail shops are members here and help provide good technical support to other members.  One reason to support LBSs is to keep these supporters in business.
                     
                    Another reason is to keep the LBS available for emergency parts and repairs.  If the LBS disappears due to online competition what do you need for true mechanical disasters such as chain breakage or derailleur failure?  Are you equipped to correct a damaged frame and derailleur hanger due to a rear derailleur major failure?  LBS's see such damage routinely.  How about replacing worn sprockets and casettes or retruing wheels or replacing broken spokes on one? 
                     
                    I could go on but basically this is a discussion which has been repeated ad-nauseum on Bike Forums and it is not reallly appropriate on a group which is primarily oriented towards the discussion of and support for a particular form of bicycle gear changing mechanism so lets end it.
                     
                    Rich Wood


                    ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <wilhelmfrankl2000@...> wrote:

                    I'm currently enrolled in a marketing program of studies at a local community college. Needless to say  brick-and-mortar retailing vs. online selling has been a hot topic. I've rently been assigned a paper on the issue with a focus of my own choosing. As an avid cyclist, naturally enough I've decided to look at how the cyclist's community views this issue.

                    I've spent some time in reading this group's relevant postings. I intend to discuss with the instructer their validity and usefulness as the moderatos', extremely pro-LBS, seem to exert a heavy handed influence nearing a censorship-like approach to discussion of the issue.   

                      Regards, Willy



                     


                  • prester_john_in_cathay
                    The days of Dad having a small lathe and drilling machine, or even a decent set of spanners and screwdrivers in the shed are very nearly over. In other news,
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 17, 2013

                      "The days of Dad having a small lathe and drilling machine, or even a decent set of spanners and screwdrivers in the shed are very nearly over."


                      In other news, American testing institute and magazine publisher Consumer Reports sampled home 3D printers for the first time and an article in the December 2013 issue documented their results.



                      ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <methuselah@...> wrote:

                      
                      Freetobike, when I was a schoolkid I worked as a cycle mechanic. In the UK the most prolific hubs were the Sturmey Archers with the odd Sachs torpedo thrown in. I could work on these things, but there were several problems with most bike shops- the S.A. replacement wheels were usually stocked and could be easily had off the peg, which cost less than any labour charge, and the things so seldom broke anyway, apart from some of the 4spds, or the 5spds, niether of which you ever saw. This means that when the IGH died, the rest of the bike was probably shagged too, so a new one would be bought. This suited the LBS outfits here because the mark up then was 50%. This was back when a credible bike could be bought with a shop assistant's weekly wage.
                       
                      Although the parts situation was complete, many shops would turn hub repair work away, even if the mechanic could tackle it, due to the Boss's ignorance. Used to drive me nuts, but I did keep a box each of pawls and springs. I was never asked to open either by a customer.
                       
                      Which brings us to the now prevalent problem, known in psychology circles as "learned helplessness". I have lived through a time where I was shown how to "make do and mend" by my grandparents who had lived through WW2, as well as seeing my sister's offspring take on the world with an "oh, its broken, buy a new one" attitude that completely circumvents the slightest possibility of -thinking- how to keep anything maintained or repaired at all.
                       
                      Admittedly, some things now are not made to be dismantled or sorted out. Cars have become too dependent on electronics for the home workshop guy to sort out at the roadside when the engine stops. Back at the dealer garage, the mechanic doesn't know what to do if his computer diagnostic machine can't tell him. American gripes about Lucas car electrics are as nothing to a dodgy german or japanese ICU. Light fittings and washing machine switches are moulded in plastic so you can't get them apart without destroying them. Or, with IGHs back in mind, the manufacturer really can be fairly certain that the average consumer hasn't got a clue and won't try to fix stuff, so there's no need to have spares sitting (unprofitably) on the shelf. Oh yeah, the other major problem?
                       
                      Profitability.
                       
                      Most of us with jobs live better that we did twenty years ago. On the roads, the tin lizzies have been replaced by leather upholstered, air conditioned Mercedes and BMWs with heated seats that can speak your weight. A single bicycle wheel can cost that humble shop assistant far more than a month's wages now. People aspire to own all these things, and pretend to be able to afford and maintain them, too. Even though maintaining stuff has come to mean paying for someone else to maintain it. They have never learned or considered learning how to do it themselves... And who would teach them anyway?
                       
                      The days of Dad having a small lathe and drilling machine, or even a decent set of spanners and screwdrivers in the shed are very nearly over.
                       
                      Thus, society has sucked the common sense out of the common man. The modern, vacant minded masses have gone along with it. When I approached my old bike shop (with officially qualifed mechanics nowadays, of course) about fitting schlumpf speed drives, frame cold-setting, and of course S.A. spares and wheelbuilding, jaws dropped, and eyes glazed over in bewilderment. These might have been trick questions, for I do all these things myself, but the devil in me just wondered what the hell they teach the kids these days. Can they fix a puncture? Or do they only know how to get a new bike out of a packing crate?
                       
                      -Andrew UK
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 1:36 AM
                      Subject: RE: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] RE: Biased owners/moderators

                       

                       I had to take the Alfine 11 up to Toronto to find a shop with folks who were savy about these IGH setups.

                      6 shops within 10 miles of my hose and not one even dealt with IGH.

                      Rich Mc


                      ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <sk8ski2004@...> wrote:

                      Great reply, Rich.  For the most part, I see you as a member of this list, with your opions being your own, but thanks for the work that you put in to maintain things.

                      My local LBS got most of my business, when I upgraded my bike to an IGH and disk brakes.  When I had difficulty with the IGH, they were there to help me and communicate with the manufacturer.  My view might be different, if they did not stock IGH equipped bikes and employ a mechanic who could work on them.

                      At the same time, I do some ordering online, when appropriate.  I buy brake pads, five at a time (good price + quantity discount), from an company in England.

                       
                      --

                      Colin
                      Vancouver, Canada

                       


                      From: "astronut1001@..." <astronut1001@...>
                      To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 6:57:45 AM
                      Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] RE: Biased owners/moderators

                       
                       As group owner I am not sure where you are coming from.  Your statement implies censorship and i do not normally do so on this forum.  Also it is worded to intentionally stir the S--t pot.  I have bought both ways and do a lot of online purchasing, primarily through Amazon.  Opinions are like derrieres, everyone has one.
                       
                      This subject has been endlessly debated on the web and my own feeling is that on-line purchase of a bicycle is appropriate for some people and frequently a disaster for others, primarily those with minimal mechanical ability and and few tools correct for working on a bicycle.  If the mechanical boob buys a bike online and does not have it assembled and checked by a good LBS then he/she is asking for trouble IMO.  Some potentially severe enough to cause severe injury or even death.
                       
                      I might also note that this group is oriented towards a particular form of bike and if you look then you will note many older discussions of the fact that few LBS's know anything about IGH bikes or are prepared to help with technical issues.  The owners of a number of IGH oriented retail shops are members here and help provide good technical support to other members.  One reason to support LBSs is to keep these supporters in business.
                       
                      Another reason is to keep the LBS available for emergency parts and repairs.  If the LBS disappears due to online competition what do you need for true mechanical disasters such as chain breakage or derailleur failure?  Are you equipped to correct a damaged frame and derailleur hanger due to a rear derailleur major failure?  LBS's see such damage routinely.  How about replacing worn sprockets and casettes or retruing wheels or replacing broken spokes on one? 
                       
                      I could go on but basically this is a discussion which has been repeated ad-nauseum on Bike Forums and it is not reallly appropriate on a group which is primarily oriented towards the discussion of and support for a particular form of bicycle gear changing mechanism so lets end it.
                       
                      Rich Wood


                      ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <wilhelmfrankl2000@...> wrote:

                      I'm currently enrolled in a marketing program of studies at a local community college. Needless to say  brick-and-mortar retailing vs. online selling has been a hot topic. I've rently been assigned a paper on the issue with a focus of my own choosing. As an avid cyclist, naturally enough I've decided to look at how the cyclist's community views this issue.

                      I've spent some time in reading this group's relevant postings. I intend to discuss with the instructer their validity and usefulness as the moderatos', extremely pro-LBS, seem to exert a heavy handed influence nearing a censorship-like approach to discussion of the issue.   

                        Regards, Willy



                       


                    • ttostrander
                      Seems to me Willy has a solution looking for a problem. Rich s response was quite appropriate. ... The days of Dad having a small lathe and drilling machine,
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 17, 2013

                        Seems to me Willy has a solution looking for a problem. Rich's response was quite appropriate. 



                        ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:

                        "The days of Dad having a small lathe and drilling machine, or even a decent set of spanners and screwdrivers in the shed are very nearly over."


                        In other news, American testing institute and magazine publisher Consumer Reports sampled home 3D printers for the first time and an article in the December 2013 issue documented their results.



                        ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <methuselah@...> wrote:

                        
                        Freetobike, when I was a schoolkid I worked as a cycle mechanic. In the UK the most prolific hubs were the Sturmey Archers with the odd Sachs torpedo thrown in. I could work on these things, but there were several problems with most bike shops- the S.A. replacement wheels were usually stocked and could be easily had off the peg, which cost less than any labour charge, and the things so seldom broke anyway, apart from some of the 4spds, or the 5spds, niether of which you ever saw. This means that when the IGH died, the rest of the bike was probably shagged too, so a new one would be bought. This suited the LBS outfits here because the mark up then was 50%. This was back when a credible bike could be bought with a shop assistant's weekly wage.
                         
                        Although the parts situation was complete, many shops would turn hub repair work away, even if the mechanic could tackle it, due to the Boss's ignorance. Used to drive me nuts, but I did keep a box each of pawls and springs. I was never asked to open either by a customer.
                         
                        Which brings us to the now prevalent problem, known in psychology circles as "learned helplessness". I have lived through a time where I was shown how to "make do and mend" by my grandparents who had lived through WW2, as well as seeing my sister's offspring take on the world with an "oh, its broken, buy a new one" attitude that completely circumvents the slightest possibility of -thinking- how to keep anything maintained or repaired at all.
                         
                        Admittedly, some things now are not made to be dismantled or sorted out. Cars have become too dependent on electronics for the home workshop guy to sort out at the roadside when the engine stops. Back at the dealer garage, the mechanic doesn't know what to do if his computer diagnostic machine can't tell him. American gripes about Lucas car electrics are as nothing to a dodgy german or japanese ICU. Light fittings and washing machine switches are moulded in plastic so you can't get them apart without destroying them. Or, with IGHs back in mind, the manufacturer really can be fairly certain that the average consumer hasn't got a clue and won't try to fix stuff, so there's no need to have spares sitting (unprofitably) on the shelf. Oh yeah, the other major problem?
                         
                        Profitability.
                         
                        Most of us with jobs live better that we did twenty years ago. On the roads, the tin lizzies have been replaced by leather upholstered, air conditioned Mercedes and BMWs with heated seats that can speak your weight. A single bicycle wheel can cost that humble shop assistant far more than a month's wages now. People aspire to own all these things, and pretend to be able to afford and maintain them, too. Even though maintaining stuff has come to mean paying for someone else to maintain it. They have never learned or considered learning how to do it themselves... And who would teach them anyway?
                         
                        The days of Dad having a small lathe and drilling machine, or even a decent set of spanners and screwdrivers in the shed are very nearly over.
                         
                        Thus, society has sucked the common sense out of the common man. The modern, vacant minded masses have gone along with it. When I approached my old bike shop (with officially qualifed mechanics nowadays, of course) about fitting schlumpf speed drives, frame cold-setting, and of course S.A. spares and wheelbuilding, jaws dropped, and eyes glazed over in bewilderment. These might have been trick questions, for I do all these things myself, but the devil in me just wondered what the hell they teach the kids these days. Can they fix a puncture? Or do they only know how to get a new bike out of a packing crate?
                         
                        -Andrew UK
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 1:36 AM
                        Subject: RE: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] RE: Biased owners/moderators

                         

                         I had to take the Alfine 11 up to Toronto to find a shop with folks who were savy about these IGH setups.

                        6 shops within 10 miles of my hose and not one even dealt with IGH.

                        Rich Mc


                        ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <sk8ski2004@...> wrote:

                        Great reply, Rich.  For the most part, I see you as a member of this list, with your opions being your own, but thanks for the work that you put in to maintain things.

                        My local LBS got most of my business, when I upgraded my bike to an IGH and disk brakes.  When I had difficulty with the IGH, they were there to help me and communicate with the manufacturer.  My view might be different, if they did not stock IGH equipped bikes and employ a mechanic who could work on them.

                        At the same time, I do some ordering online, when appropriate.  I buy brake pads, five at a time (good price + quantity discount), from an company in England.

                         
                        --

                        Colin
                        Vancouver, Canada

                         


                        From: "astronut1001@..." <astronut1001@...>
                        To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 6:57:45 AM
                        Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] RE: Biased owners/moderators

                         
                         As group owner I am not sure where you are coming from.  Your statement implies censorship and i do not normally do so on this forum.  Also it is worded to intentionally stir the S--t pot.  I have bought both ways and do a lot of online purchasing, primarily through Amazon.  Opinions are like derrieres, everyone has one.
                         
                        This subject has been endlessly debated on the web and my own feeling is that on-line purchase of a bicycle is appropriate for some people and frequently a disaster for others, primarily those with minimal mechanical ability and and few tools correct for working on a bicycle.  If the mechanical boob buys a bike online and does not have it assembled and checked by a good LBS then he/she is asking for trouble IMO.  Some potentially severe enough to cause severe injury or even death.
                         
                        I might also note that this group is oriented towards a particular form of bike and if you look then you will note many older discussions of the fact that few LBS's know anything about IGH bikes or are prepared to help with technical issues.  The owners of a number of IGH oriented retail shops are members here and help provide good technical support to other members.  One reason to support LBSs is to keep these supporters in business.
                         
                        Another reason is to keep the LBS available for emergency parts and repairs.  If the LBS disappears due to online competition what do you need for true mechanical disasters such as chain breakage or derailleur failure?  Are you equipped to correct a damaged frame and derailleur hanger due to a rear derailleur major failure?  LBS's see such damage routinely.  How about replacing worn sprockets and casettes or retruing wheels or replacing broken spokes on one? 
                         
                        I could go on but basically this is a discussion which has been repeated ad-nauseum on Bike Forums and it is not reallly appropriate on a group which is primarily oriented towards the discussion of and support for a particular form of bicycle gear changing mechanism so lets end it.
                         
                        Rich Wood


                        ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <wilhelmfrankl2000@...> wrote:

                        I'm currently enrolled in a marketing program of studies at a local community college. Needless to say  brick-and-mortar retailing vs. online selling has been a hot topic. I've rently been assigned a paper on the issue with a focus of my own choosing. As an avid cyclist, naturally enough I've decided to look at how the cyclist's community views this issue.

                        I've spent some time in reading this group's relevant postings. I intend to discuss with the instructer their validity and usefulness as the moderatos', extremely pro-LBS, seem to exert a heavy handed influence nearing a censorship-like approach to discussion of the issue.   

                          Regards, Willy



                         


                      • rons_hobbies
                        I m impressed with your language skills. . . . censorship-like approach . . . I thought I had read all the posts and I don t recall the moderator weighing
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 19, 2013

                          I'm impressed with your language skills. ". . . censorship-like approach . . . "


                          I thought I had read all the posts and I don't recall the moderator weighing in on the discussion, only members of the group . . .  Nor do I recall a single post explicitly stating "Don't do it!" Maybe I missed one. Caution yes, "extreme" hum . . .   


                          Are you also going to discuss what comes across as your own biases and how you will set them aside? I only mention that because of your choice of words, which some might label as "extreme." Or are you developing the paper from the position of having a bias? And that basis is based on how may bikes you have purchased over the internet? Just curious how big your sample group is and if you are including yourself. 


                          Do my comments on safety get a mention or despite my two, actually three now that I think of it, internet purchases do they get thrown out as outlyers? Or the fact that I've only had one bike repaired by a LBS in the past 45 years? How about consideration of properly working brakes not being a safety issue of concern on bikes per your earlier statement? 


                          I'be interested in reading the posts you reference. I'm sure you kept a list for easy reference using APA, MLA, Chicago or what ever system your instructor prefers/mandates. Any decent paper would need such citations. For this type of research, I suggest you take a look at Zotero:


                          http://www.zotero.org/


                          "Zotero collects all your research in a single, searchable interface. You can add PDFs, images, audio and video files, snapshots of web pages, and really anything else. Zotero automatically indexes the full-text content of your library, enabling you to find exactly what you're looking for with just a few keystrokes."


                          I found it invaluable when completing my masters. 


                          Will be interested in seeing your paper.


                          Ron



                          ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <wilhelmfrankl2000@...> wrote:

                          I'm currently enrolled in a marketing program of studies at a local community college. Needless to say  brick-and-mortar retailing vs. online selling has been a hot topic. I've rently been assigned a paper on the issue with a focus of my own choosing. As an avid cyclist, naturally enough I've decided to look at how the cyclist's community views this issue.

                          I've spent some time in reading this group's relevant postings. I intend to discuss with the instructer their validity and usefulness as the moderatos', extremely pro-LBS, seem to exert a heavy handed influence nearing a censorship-like approach to discussion of the issue.   

                            Regards, Willy



                           

                        • Irvine Short
                          ... I d be more impressed if you lot would stick to bicycles.
                          Message 12 of 18 , Nov 20, 2013
                            On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 10:49 PM, <peter.pilot@...> wrote:

                            I'm impressed with your language skills. ". . . censorship-like approach . . . "


                            I'd be more impressed if you lot would stick to bicycles.

                          • aarons_bicycle_repair
                            I think the moderators should delete these kind of discussions. It wastes my time and makes me not want to come to this forum. It is supposed to be about IGH
                            Message 13 of 18 , Nov 20, 2013

                              I think the moderators should delete these kind of discussions.

                              It wastes my time and makes me not want to come to this forum.

                              It is supposed to be about IGH 



                              ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <irvine.short@...> wrote:

                              On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 10:49 PM, <peter.pilot@...> wrote:

                              I'm impressed with your language skills. ". . . censorship-like approach . . . "


                              I'd be more impressed if you lot would stick to bicycles.

                            • wilhelmfrankl2000
                              And so now Aaron, a bike shop owner (yes, I ve been reading past postings) is petitioning the owners to censor diverging views. .It should be interesting to
                              Message 14 of 18 , Nov 21, 2013

                                And so now Aaron, a bike shop owner (yes, I've been reading past postings)  is petitioning the owners to censor diverging views. .It should be interesting to observe what happens. 

                                My take on the shaping of this group's conversation is that little other than technical advice is welcomed by the owner/moderator. Frankly, this has resulted in a rather boring group. While said owners/moderators seem to be interested in both participation and numbers of members,  their intercession into the course of discussion works against both participation and membership growth.

                                 Regards, Willy



                                ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <aaron@...> wrote:

                                I think the moderators should delete these kind of discussions.

                                It wastes my time and makes me not want to come to this forum.

                                It is supposed to be about IGH 



                                ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <irvine.short@...> wrote:

                                On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 10:49 PM, <peter.pilot@...> wrote:

                                I'm impressed with your language skills. ". . . censorship-like approach . . . "


                                I'd be more impressed if you lot would stick to bicycles.

                              • jim
                                Definition from Urban Dictionary Troll One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum
                                Message 15 of 18 , Nov 21, 2013
                                  Definition from Urban Dictionary

                                  Troll
                                  One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.




                                  On Thursday, November 21, 2013 10:45 AM, "wilhelmfrankl2000@..." <wilhelmfrankl2000@...> wrote:
                                   
                                  And so now Aaron, a bike shop owner (yes, I've been reading past postings)  is petitioning the owners to censor diverging views. .It should be interesting to observe what happens. 

                                  My take on the shaping of this group's conversation is that little other than technical advice is welcomed by the owner/moderator. Frankly, this has resulted in a rather boring group. While said owners/moderators seem to be interested in both participation and numbers of members,  their intercession into the course of discussion works against both participation and membership growth.

                                   Regards, Willy


                                  ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <aaron@...> wrote:

                                  I think the moderators should delete these kind of discussions.
                                  It wastes my time and makes me not want to come to this forum.
                                  It is supposed to be about IGH 


                                  ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <irvine.short@...> wrote:

                                  On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 10:49 PM, <peter.pilot@...> wrote:
                                  I'm impressed with your language skills. ". . . censorship-like approach . . . "

                                  I'd be more impressed if you lot would stick to bicycles.



                                • John Baldwin
                                  When I approached my old bike shop (with officially qualified mechanics nowadays, of course) about fitting Schlumpf speed drives, frame cold-setting, and of
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Nov 21, 2013
                                    "When I approached my old bike shop (with officially qualified mechanics nowadays, of course) about fitting Schlumpf speed drives, frame cold-setting, and of course S.A. spares and wheelbuilding, jaws dropped, and eyes glazed over in bewilderment."

                                    Where is the shop that regularly performs these services?  Can I use their brazing furnace and frame enameler?

                                    All kidding aside this is what would probably happen if you visited the shop I wrench for (in Maine, USA) and spoke to a floor sales associate; wheelbuilding, of course!  S.A. replacement quality pre-laced wheels, yea, we can order that from our lesser-used distributer, probably, let me call you with a price unless you have five minutes to wait while I browse their availability.  Frame cold-setting?  OH!  You mean bending the snot out of an old steel frame until it's sort-of o.k. to ride?  Sure, sign this waiver.  Schlumpf Drive?  Lemmie get our weirdo redhead mechanic, he's chained up in the basement... He says he's never seen one outside of obscure, primarily UK-populated internally geared hub forums but he'll have a go at it.  Have you tried the Patterson Drive/ FSA Metropolis crank?  QBP is sitting on untold numbers of those.

                                    We speak retrogrouch, if you get the right person.  Most of the time you'll probably be given the wide-eyes and be asked to come back when that weird mechanic is scheduled so the salesperson can go back to selling bikes instead of continually embarrassing his/ herself (and the shop) by attempting to field purposefully obscure questions. 

                                    I enjoy fielding the retrogrouch questions (because I almost always have the weird components they're looking for), but I'm only there 5 days a week.  90% of the employees got no love for the vintage/ obscure.  It's not because they're willfully ignorant or inept (in most cases, of course, there are some seasonal exceptions), it's just not what 99.9% of customers (especially the ones who spend money) are interested in.


                                    On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 9:51 AM, jim <jimbofla1138@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    Definition from Urban Dictionary

                                    Troll
                                    One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.




                                    On Thursday, November 21, 2013 10:45 AM, "wilhelmfrankl2000@..." <wilhelmfrankl2000@...> wrote:
                                     
                                    And so now Aaron, a bike shop owner (yes, I've been reading past postings)  is petitioning the owners to censor diverging views. .It should be interesting to observe what happens. 

                                    My take on the shaping of this group's conversation is that little other than technical advice is welcomed by the owner/moderator. Frankly, this has resulted in a rather boring group. While said owners/moderators seem to be interested in both participation and numbers of members,  their intercession into the course of discussion works against both participation and membership growth.

                                     Regards, Willy


                                    ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <aaron@...> wrote:

                                    I think the moderators should delete these kind of discussions.
                                    It wastes my time and makes me not want to come to this forum.
                                    It is supposed to be about IGH 


                                    ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <irvine.short@...> wrote:

                                    On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 10:49 PM, <peter.pilot@...> wrote:
                                    I'm impressed with your language skills. ". . . censorship-like approach . . . "

                                    I'd be more impressed if you lot would stick to bicycles.




                                  • David Bean
                                    Due to the nature of this thread, my message will probably be read only by those who need to read it. I get the digest and if its header indicates that most of
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Nov 22, 2013
                                      Due to the nature of this thread, my message will probably be read only by
                                      those who need to read it. I get the digest and if its header indicates that
                                      most of the messages have nothing to do with internally geared hubs I just
                                      delete the whole message. I have no use for these pissing contests that
                                      always seem to take place on email lists that were set up for information
                                      sharing. Everyone's entitled to his own opinion, but why not vent that
                                      opinion in a forum dedicated to opinions? More power to the moderator and I
                                      would be happy if he moderated more. Over and out.

                                      David Bean
                                      Arlington, MA USA
                                    • David Chase
                                      ... I did not know of this, but I can tell you what I think is wrong with it after a quick look: 1) for many IGH users, two gear shifts is one too many. I know
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Nov 22, 2013
                                        On 2013-11-21, at 6:38 PM, John Baldwin <johnbaldwin207@...> wrote:
                                        > Have you tried the Patterson Drive/ FSA Metropolis crank? QBP is sitting on untold numbers of those.

                                        I did not know of this, but I can tell you what I think is wrong with it after a quick look:

                                        1) for many IGH users, two gear shifts is one too many.
                                        I know mechanically unsavvy kids and adults who don't get how to use front+rear derailer gears.

                                        2) For someone trying to cobble together a cheap wide gear range with IGH, it's
                                        kinda expensive, versus (say) a Nexus IGH 8. That's $145, provides a 304% ratio.
                                        Patterson + SA-AW = 1.75 x 1.6 = 280% ratio, with some overlapped gears in the middle.
                                        Patterson + SA-5 gets you to 400%, with more overlap in the middle.

                                        I'm not sure how I feel about a 28-tooth chainring; I sure hope it's not made of aluminum,
                                        because if it is, I would wreck it in a few hundred miles ( http://dr2chase.wordpress.com/2011/04/10/too-much-torque/ ),
                                        and could probably still wreck it if I weighed 165lbs (doing a simple 220 * 28/38 calculation).

                                        David
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