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IG hub torque to frame

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  • John S. Allen
    Please see http://sheldonbrown.com/twist-internal.html. Or if you prefer standard international units of measurement rather than the British system,
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 23, 2013
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      Please see

      http://sheldonbrown.com/twist-internal.html.

      Or if you prefer standard international units of measurement rather
      than the British system,

      http://sheldonbrown.com/torque-internal.html

      Comments are welcome.

      John S. Allen

      Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

      League Cycling Instructor #77-C

      jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
      http://bikexprt.com
      http://john-s-allen.com/blog
      http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts
    • Colin Bryant
      Hmmm.  It makes me wonder about my Alfine 11, on a frame with bolt-on seat stays, so all torque is being applied to just my chainstays.  I wonder if anyone
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 24, 2013
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        Hmmm.  It makes me wonder about my Alfine 11, on a frame with bolt-on seat stays, so all torque is being applied to just my chainstays.  I wonder if anyone makes Alfine torque arms, to replace the washers with.

        I have a home-made rear disk brake mount, which has a torque arm to the left chainstay.  I'm not too concerned, considering the rear wheel is very lightly loaded (SWB recumbent).  I'm using a tiny 140mm rotor.
         
        --

        Colin

         


        On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:14:19 PM, John S. Allen <jsallen@...> wrote:
         
        Please see

        http://sheldonbrown.com/twist-internal.html.

        Or if you prefer standard international units of measurement rather
        than the British system,

        http://sheldonbrown.com/torque-internal.html

        Comments are welcome.

        John S. Allen

        Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

        League Cycling Instructor #77-C

        jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
        http://bikexprt.com
        http://john-s-allen.com/blog
        http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts



      • aarons_bicycle_repair
        I would like to add that the number one cause of axle problems and frame damage is lack of lubricant on the threads and lack of proper tightening of the axle
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 24, 2013
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          I would like to add that the number one cause of axle problems and frame damage is lack of lubricant on the threads and lack of proper tightening of the axle nuts.  Axle nuts on all IGH should be torqued to 32-35 ft/lbs.

          I prefer grease to oil but 90wt oil is also fine.

          Acorn nuts offer a handy "cup" to store extra grease.  On the road side you can use a stick to get some out and re-apply to the threads.

          Axle threads should be cleaned and re-lubed every time the wheel is removed. 



          ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          Please see

          http://sheldonbrown.com/twist-internal.html.

          Or if you prefer standard international units of measurement rather
          than the British system,

          http://sheldonbrown.com/torque-internal.html

          Comments are welcome.

          John S. Allen

          Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

          League Cycling Instructor #77-C

          jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
          http://bikexprt.com
          http://john-s-allen.com/blog
          http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts
        • rons_hobbies
          Aaron, is it simply availability/cost in the use of grease vs.anti-seize compound? LOL, my aircraft oriented training still wants to reach for anti-seize
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 25, 2013
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            Aaron, is it simply availability/cost in the use of grease vs.anti-seize compound? LOL, my aircraft oriented training still wants to reach for anti-seize compound for the places everyone else is putting grease. 


            For a while I think others in the coop hid the tube of Park anti-seize from me.


            Thanks for the suggestion of acorn nuts. I haven't barked an ankle yet, but prevention never hurts.


            Ron



            ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            I would like to add that the number one cause of axle problems and frame damage is lack of lubricant on the threads and lack of proper tightening of the axle nuts.  Axle nuts on all IGH should be torqued to 32-35 ft/lbs.

            I prefer grease to oil but 90wt oil is also fine.

            Acorn nuts offer a handy "cup" to store extra grease.  On the road side you can use a stick to get some out and re-apply to the threads.

            Axle threads should be cleaned and re-lubed every time the wheel is removed. 


            <Snip>

          • aarons_bicycle_repair
            Grease is fine for most small bicycle size nuts and bolts. For stainless we always use silver anti-seize and for titanium we use copper. Small M5 bolts for
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 26, 2013
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              Grease is fine for most small bicycle size nuts and bolts.


              For stainless we always use silver anti-seize and for titanium we use copper.


              Small M5 bolts for fenders and racks we use Loc-tite 242 (blue)


              The rest of the threads on a bicycle get blue marine grease or Phil Wood Tenacious Oil.


              Here are my shop's repair standards (a work in progress)

              http://www.rideyourbike.com/repairstandards.shtml 



              ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Aaron, is it simply availability/cost in the use of grease vs.anti-seize compound? LOL, my aircraft oriented training still wants to reach for anti-seize compound for the places everyone else is putting grease. 


              For a while I think others in the coop hid the tube of Park anti-seize from me.


              Thanks for the suggestion of acorn nuts. I haven't barked an ankle yet, but prevention never hurts.


              Ron



              ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              I would like to add that the number one cause of axle problems and frame damage is lack of lubricant on the threads and lack of proper tightening of the axle nuts.  Axle nuts on all IGH should be torqued to 32-35 ft/lbs.

              I prefer grease to oil but 90wt oil is also fine.

              Acorn nuts offer a handy "cup" to store extra grease.  On the road side you can use a stick to get some out and re-apply to the threads.

              Axle threads should be cleaned and re-lubed every time the wheel is removed. 


              <Snip>

            • Jim Avery
              ... Wow! Many thanks for posting those. Some sage advice on safety there. I m going to adjust the position of my seat-stay mounted lights if I can now to
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 27, 2013
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                On 26 Oct 2013 20:04, <aaron@...> wrote:

                > Here are my shop's repair standards (a work in progress)
                >
                > http://www.rideyourbike.com/repairstandards.shtml 
                >

                Wow! Many thanks for posting those.  Some sage advice on safety there.  I'm going to adjust the position of my seat-stay mounted lights if I can now to make sure they can never swing in to the spokes.

                Cheers,

                Jim

              • rons_hobbies
                Thank you very much! for sharing your standards. The Loc-titet is like a duh moment for me. It drives me crazy not to have lock washers supplied for M5
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 27, 2013
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                   Thank you very much! for sharing your standards. The Loc-titet is like a duh moment for me. It drives me crazy not to have lock washers supplied for M5 fasteners. I'm going to quit looking for them and use the Loc-tite.


                  I'd like to utilize some of your standards in my ever evolving basic maintenance syllbusif your OK with it.


                  My outline is here:

                  http://www.bikecollectives.org/wiki/index.php?title=VeloCity_Basic_Class_%28draft%29


                  I'll be filling it out as I have time.



                  ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                  Grease is fine for most small bicycle size nuts and bolts.


                  For stainless we always use silver anti-seize and for titanium we use copper.


                  Small M5 bolts for fenders and racks we use Loc-tite 242 (blue)


                  The rest of the threads on a bicycle get blue marine grease or Phil Wood Tenacious Oil.


                  Here are my shop's repair standards (a work in progress)

                  http://www.rideyourbike.com/repairstandards.shtml 


                  <Snip>
                • Mike
                  for information, lockwashers in M5 size (in stainless steel, other materials too) are available from mcmaster.com, along with lots of other hardware, tools,
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 27, 2013
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                    for information, lockwashers in M5 size (in stainless steel, other materials too) are available from mcmaster.com, along with lots of other hardware, tools, etc.���� I am not affiliated with Mcmaster; just a satisfied customer.

                    On 10/27/2013 01:23 PM, peter.pilot@... wrote:
                    ����

                    ����Thank you very much! for sharing your standards. The Loc-titet is like a duh moment for me. It drives me crazy not to have lock washers supplied for M5 fasteners. I'm going to quit looking for them and use the Loc-tite.


                    remainder of original email deleted....

                  • John S. Allen
                    ... Good stuff, but a couple of questions and comments: The right hand lever operates the rear brake : This is the US (CPSC) standard but it is a problem due
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 27, 2013
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                      At 03:04 PM 10/26/2013, aaron@... wrote:
                       
                      Here are my shop's repair standards (a work in progress)

                      http://www.rideyourbike.com/repairstandards.shtml

                      Good stuff, but a couple of questions and comments:

                      "The right hand lever operates the rear brake": This is the US (CPSC) standard but it is a problem due to inconsistency with motorcycle practice.The right lever operates the front brake on a motorcycle and the left lever, the clutch. This needs to be discussed and if someone comes in who is experienced as a motorcyclist, it's best to connect the right lever to the front brake for consistency. See http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

                      "Always verify that yokes, arms, levers, etc. do not bottom before full lever travel." Also I'd add that the brake should begin to engage before the lever has moved very far. Otherwise you get what I call a "jiu-jitsu" brake level -- you pull it halfway to the handlebar and then it engages suddenly -- Endo!

                      For cable-operated disc brakes, you say: Compressionless housing is recommended. A full run is better than using cable stops.

                      What kind of compressionless housing? The Shimano kind with longitudinal wires risks bursting under heavy load. Nokon "string of beads" housing would be fine.

                      As to the full cable run: certainly good advice for the front wheel. Sheldon Brown used to tell a story about a friend who ran an open cable from the fork crown down to a drum brake. The flexing of the front fork when the brake was applied the first time self-actuated the cable and the front wheel locked.  Endo!

                      Couple of glitches on the page: photos of cogs aren't linked. Chain wear descriptions by Sheldon Brown and pardo are broken links (no pun intended?)

                      Not greasing square tapers? Jobst Brandt and Phil Wood disagree.

                      Ergopower photos show one of the Modolo killer stems which have the handlebar clamp bolt behind the handlebar. See http://bikexprt.com/witness/product/stems.htm

                      John S. Allen

                      Technical Writer/Editor,  http://sheldonbrown.com

                      League Cycling Instructor #77-C

                      jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
                      http://bikexprt.com
                      http://john-s-allen.com/blog
                      http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts

                    • jim
                      Alot of interesting points in those standards.  I had never tweaked to the center pull canti yoke stopping a tire possibility, and my cyclocross Schwinn has
                      Message 10 of 24 , Oct 27, 2013
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                        Alot of interesting points in those standards.  I had never tweaked to the center pull canti yoke stopping a tire possibility, and my cyclocross Schwinn has 'em.  Also interesting to see that Aaron will not work on gasoline powered bikes, nor will any LBS around here, of course. 

                        In South Florida, especially Miami, we have a fairly significant cult of knuckleheads who keep putting bigger and faster gas motors onto bicycle frames, especially Schwinn and Mal-Wart Huffy cruisers.  They will sometimes even brag that they can reach 50 mph (80 kph), which has so overrun the stock bicycle brakes that I've never seen upgraded as to be suicidal.

                        It is illegal here, only electric bikes maxing out at 25 mph are permitted, but the cops are overwhelmed with more serious matters and so no one I've ever talked to about it (and I usually chat up any that I see), has ever been ticketed. And they are not at all interested in hearing about the danger, of course.  I  haven't read or seen any newsstories on injuries or death from them but those frame welds, thinner bicycle tires and lighter brakes are sure to result in plenty. 


                        On Sunday, October 27, 2013 1:23 PM, "peter.pilot@..." <peter.pilot@...> wrote:
                         
                         Thank you very much! for sharing your standards. The Loc-titet is like a duh moment for me. It drives me crazy not to have lock washers supplied for M5 fasteners. I'm going to quit looking for them and use the Loc-tite.

                        I'd like to utilize some of your standards in my ever evolving basic maintenance syllbusif your OK with it.

                        My outline is here:
                        http://www.bikecollectives.org/wiki/index.php?title=VeloCity_Basic_Class_%28draft%29

                        I'll be filling it out as I have time.


                        ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                        Grease is fine for most small bicycle size nuts and bolts.

                        For stainless we always use silver anti-seize and for titanium we use copper.

                        Small M5 bolts for fenders and racks we use Loc-tite 242 (blue)

                        The rest of the threads on a bicycle get blue marine grease or Phil Wood Tenacious Oil.

                        Here are my shop's repair standards (a work in progress)

                        <Snip>


                      • bikealfa
                        Regarding Sheldon s story about the front drum brake with the cable direct from the centerpull brake hanger - that was me. No endo, just a bent fork blade.
                        Message 11 of 24 , Oct 27, 2013
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                          Regarding Sheldon's story about the front drum brake with the cable direct from the centerpull brake hanger - that was me.  No endo, just a bent fork blade.  Sheldon did say that while he understood the reason the fork bent, he would probably have tried what I did too.


                          Michael Wilson





                          ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                          At 03:04 PM 10/26/2013, aaron@... wrote:
                           
                          Here are my shop's repair standards (a work in progress)

                          http://www.rideyourbike.com/repairstandards.shtml

                          Good stuff, but a couple of questions and comments:

                          "The right hand lever operates the rear brake": This is the US (CPSC) standard but it is a problem due to inconsistency with motorcycle practice.The right lever operates the front brake on a motorcycle and the left lever, the clutch. This needs to be discussed and if someone comes in who is experienced as a motorcyclist, it's best to connect the right lever to the front brake for consistency. See http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

                          "Always verify that yokes, arms, levers, etc. do not bottom before full lever travel." Also I'd add that the brake should begin to engage before the lever has moved very far. Otherwise you get what I call a "jiu-jitsu" brake level -- you pull it halfway to the handlebar and then it engages suddenly -- Endo!

                          For cable-operated disc brakes, you say: Compressionless housing is recommended. A full run is better than using cable stops.

                          What kind of compressionless housing? The Shimano kind with longitudinal wires risks bursting under heavy load. Nokon "string of beads" housing would be fine.

                          As to the full cable run: certainly good advice for the front wheel. Sheldon Brown used to tell a story about a friend who ran an open cable from the fork crown down to a drum brake. The flexing of the front fork when the brake was applied the first time self-actuated the cable and the front wheel locked.  Endo!

                          Couple of glitches on the page: photos of cogs aren't linked. Chain wear descriptions by Sheldon Brown and pardo are broken links (no pun intended?)

                          Not greasing square tapers? Jobst Brandt and Phil Wood disagree.

                          Ergopower photos show one of the Modolo killer stems which have the handlebar clamp bolt behind the handlebar. See http://bikexprt.com/witness/product/stems.htm

                          John S. Allen

                          Technical Writer/Editor,  http://sheldonbrown.com

                          League Cycling Instructor #77-C

                          jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
                          http://bikexprt.com
                          http://john-s-allen.com/blog
                          http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts

                        • John S. Allen
                          ... Life has become too safe. This is just the kind of thing needed to adjust the gene pool to maintain a better balance between caution and bravado. I ve seen
                          Message 12 of 24 , Oct 27, 2013
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                            At 07:37 PM 10/27/2013, jim wrote:
                            >
                            >Alot of interesting points in those standards. I had never tweaked
                            >to the center pull canti yoke stopping a tire possibility, and my
                            >cyclocross Schwinn has 'em. Also interesting to see that Aaron will
                            >not work on gasoline powered bikes, nor will any LBS around here, of course.
                            >
                            >In South Florida, especially Miami, we have a fairly significant
                            >cult of knuckleheads who keep putting bigger and faster gas motors
                            >onto bicycle frames, especially Schwinn and Mal-Wart Huffy
                            >cruisers. They will sometimes even brag that they can reach 50 mph
                            >(80 kph), which has so overrun the stock bicycle brakes that I've
                            >never seen upgraded as to be suicidal.
                            >
                            >It is illegal here, only electric bikes maxing out at 25 mph are
                            >permitted, but the cops are overwhelmed with more serious matters
                            >and so no one I've ever talked to about it (and I usually chat up
                            >any that I see), has ever been ticketed. And they are not at all
                            >interested in hearing about the danger, of course. I haven't read
                            >or seen any newsstories on injuries or death from them but those
                            >frame welds, thinner bicycle tires and lighter brakes are sure to
                            >result in plenty.

                            Life has become too safe. This is just the kind of thing needed to
                            adjust the gene pool to maintain a better balance between caution and bravado.

                            I've seen examples of the gasoline-powered bicycle online, with two
                            sprockets side by side on the driver for a wide chain to carry power
                            to an ordinary IG bicycle hub. I don't expect that the life
                            expectancy of the hub would be very long either.

                            And some of these examples are on so-called survivalist Web sites!

                            John S. Allen

                            Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

                            League Cycling Instructor #77-C

                            jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
                            http://bikexprt.com
                            http://john-s-allen.com/blog
                            http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts
                          • Jeff Bertolet
                            ... I ve used Jagwire Kevlar reinforced compressionless housing. It is rated for brakes if used with the supplied special ferrules. It works ok for regular
                            Message 13 of 24 , Oct 28, 2013
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                              "Always verify that yokes, arms, levers, etc. do not bottom before 
                              full lever travel." Also I'd add that the brake should begin to 
                              engage before the lever has moved very far. Otherwise you get what I 
                              call a "jiu-jitsu&quot; brake level -- you pull it halfway to the 
                              handlebar and then it engages suddenly -- Endo!
                              For cable-operated disc brakes, you say: Compressionless housing is 
                              recommended. A full run is better than using cable stops.
                              What kind of compressionless housing? The Shimano kind with 
                              longitudinal wires risks bursting under heavy load. Nokon "string of 
                              beads" housing would be fine.
                              I've used Jagwire Kevlar reinforced compressionless housing. It is rated for brakes if used with the supplied special ferrules. It works ok for regular housing runs, but the internal diameter is a little small for brake cables. There is waaaaay too much friction when running a tandem length cable with full housing as on a cargo bike.


                              Not greasing square tapers? Jobst Brandt and Phil Wood disagree.
                              Ergopower photos show one of the Modolo killer stems which have the 
                              handlebar clamp bolt behind the handlebar. See 
                              http://bikexprt.com/witness/product/stems.htm

                              Jan Heine also votes for grease. His analysis is the most thorough I've seen. 
                            • Alex Wetmore
                              You can get them at any hardware store. If your hardware store doesn t carry metric sizes (that is rare these days) then get a #10 stainless lock washer.
                              Message 14 of 24 , Oct 28, 2013
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                                You can get them at any hardware store.  If your hardware store doesn't carry metric sizes (that is rare these days) then get a #10 stainless lock washer.

                                #10-32 and M5 are very very similar in size.  They aren't exactly the same, but they are so close that M5 nuts work on #10-32 bolts and visa-versa.  Washers interchange between them very well.

                                alex

                                From: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com <Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Mike <mdinolfo@...>
                                Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2013 3:39 PM
                                To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] M5 lockwashers (was: IG hub torque to frame)
                                 


                                for information, lockwashers in M5 size (in stainless steel, other materials too) are available from mcmaster.com, along with lots of other hardware, tools, etc.���� I am not affiliated with Mcmaster; just a satisfied customer.

                                On 10/27/2013 01:23 PM, peter.pilot@... wrote:
                                ����

                                ����Thank you very much! for sharing your standards. The Loc-titet is like a duh moment for me. It drives me crazy not to have lock washers supplied for M5 fasteners. I'm going to quit looking for them and use the Loc-tite.


                                remainder of original email deleted....



                              • David Chase
                                Maybe not any hardware store. I noticed a distinct difference in the selection at an Ace and a True Value; I think the Ace had a wider range (this was
                                Message 15 of 24 , Oct 28, 2013
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                                  Maybe not any hardware store. I noticed a distinct difference in the selection at an Ace and a True Value; I think the Ace had a wider range (this was definitely the case for wood screws). Maybe I'm just noticing patterns at individual stores, not chains, but the "not any" still holds -- some are better than others.

                                  David

                                  On 2013-10-28, at 10:34 AM, Alex Wetmore <alex@...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  > You can get them at any hardware store. If your hardware store doesn't carry metric sizes (that is rare these days) then get a #10 stainless lock washer.
                                  >
                                  > #10-32 and M5 are very very similar in size. They aren't exactly the same, but they are so close that M5 nuts work on #10-32 bolts and visa-versa. Washers interchange between them very well.
                                  >
                                  > alex
                                  > From: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com <Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Mike <mdinolfo@...>
                                  > Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2013 3:39 PM
                                  > To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] M5 lockwashers (was: IG hub torque to frame)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > for information, lockwashers in M5 size (in stainless steel, other materials too) are available from mcmaster.com, along with lots of other hardware, tools, etc.���� I am not affiliated with Mcmaster; just a satisfied customer.
                                  >
                                  > On 10/27/2013 01:23 PM, peter.pilot@... wrote:
                                  >> ����
                                  >> ����Thank you very much! for sharing your standards. The Loc-titet is like a duh moment for me. It drives me crazy not to have lock washers supplied for M5 fasteners. I'm going to quit looking for them and use the Loc-tite.
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  > remainder of original email deleted....
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • rons_hobbies
                                  Barnett goes through the different types of brakes with the end goal, as I read it, to have working brakes with no less than 25 /1 of clearance between the
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Oct 28, 2013
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                                    Barnett goes through the different types of brakes with the end goal, as I read it, to have working brakes with no less than 25''/1" of clearance between the brake leaver full on and the handle bar. After watching a rider get sucked under a bus I don't see any reason to not agree. His rear wheel was at least 20" in the air trying to stop. He survived, my GF was able to stop the slow moving bus while I called 911 and then I talked to him till the responders arrived. I call it the "A big trash truck just cut you off and now the adrenaline is flowing test." Metal to metal contact means the brake application is now at the maximum possible.  


                                    In my limited experience, and more so with vee/direct pull brakes, sometimes it takes using the barrel adjusters to get this while maintaining the ability to remove the wheel without tools. 


                                    I try hard to only do the barrel adjuster adjustment if the patron is present so they will know how to get the wheel off.   I'm 110% open to other solutions . . .


                                    Ron

                                     

                                    <Snip>

                                    "Always verify that yokes, arms, levers, etc. do not bottom before full lever travel." Also I'd add that the brake should begin to engage before the lever has moved very far. Otherwise you get what I call a "jiu-jitsu" brake level -- you pull it halfway to the handlebar and then it engages suddenly -- Endo!

                                    For cable-operated disc brakes, you say: Compressionless housing is recommended. A full run is better than using cable stops.

                                    What kind of compressionless housing? The Shimano kind with longitudinal wires risks bursting under heavy load. Nokon "string of beads" housing would be fine.

                                    As to the full cable run: certainly good advice for the front wheel. Sheldon Brown used to tell a story about a friend who ran an open cable from the fork crown down to a drum brake. The flexing of the front fork when the brake was applied the first time self-actuated the cable and the front wheel locked.  Endo!

                                    Couple of glitches on the page: photos of cogs aren't linked. Chain wear descriptions by Sheldon Brown and pardo are broken links (no pun intended?)

                                    Not greasing square tapers? Jobst Brandt and Phil Wood disagree.

                                    Ergopower photos show one of the Modolo killer stems which have the handlebar clamp bolt behind the handlebar. See http://bikexprt.com/witness/product/stems.htm

                                    John S. Allen

                                    Technical Writer/Editor,  http://sheldonbrown.com

                                    League Cycling Instructor #77-C

                                    jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
                                    http://bikexprt.com
                                    http://john-s-allen.com/blog
                                    http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts

                                  • rons_hobbies
                                    Thanks Alex. I m also a very satisfied McMasters customer and wish I d thought to order them last time I made a purchase. They were the source for shims to fit
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Oct 28, 2013
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                                      Thanks Alex. I'm also a very satisfied McMasters customer and wish I'd thought to order them last time I made a purchase. They were the source for shims to fit an assist hub to my GF's bike when the hub scrapped the inner fork. 


                                      The Lowes is literally around the corner from me but has the worst inventory of fasteners I've ever seen.  10-32, you would think I'd have figured that out. Thanks!


                                      The really "Good" Tru-Value closed, the next best is 5 miles/:50 minutes round trip in No. VA traffic. And where I got the last ones I purchased to fit my Velo-Orange porteur rack on my commuter bike. Which didn't come with the length of bolt necessary for the fender to the rack boss. Rolls eyes . . . 


                                      If I had to work retail, it'd either be hardware or bicycles.



                                      ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                      You can get them at any hardware store.  If your hardware store doesn't carry metric sizes (that is rare these days) then get a #10 stainless lock washer.

                                      #10-32 and M5 are very very similar in size.  They aren't exactly the same, but they are so close that M5 nuts work on #10-32 bolts and visa-versa.  Washers interchange between them very well.

                                      alex

                                      <Snip>
                                    • Mike
                                      I must disagree with a previous poster, who wrote: #10-32 and M5 are very very similar in size. They aren t exactly the same, but they are so
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Oct 28, 2013
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                                        I must disagree with a previous poster, who wrote:

                                        <begin excerpt>
                                        #10-32 and M5 are very very similar in size. They aren't exactly the
                                        same, but they are so close that M5 nuts work on #10-32 bolts and
                                        visa-versa.
                                        <end excerpt>

                                        It's probably OK to use a similarly sized inch lockwasher on a metric
                                        thread (or vice versa), but do not mix metric nuts with inch
                                        bolts/screws, and don't mix metric bolts/screws with inch nuts, except
                                        (maybe) under emergency conditions. It might be possible to get some of
                                        these combinations to work (for example, a 3/8-26 thread with a 9.5M1),
                                        but the assembled fastener load rating will be very greatly reduced, and
                                        the fasteners themselves are likely to suffer some degree of
                                        deformation/distortion, making them susceptible to subsequent failure
                                        even if they are later disassembled and mated with the correct (metric
                                        or inch) paired fastener. If you can't get a threaded fastener pair to
                                        screw together using only your fingertips (no wrenches) to get a full
                                        two or three threads, it's probably a mismatch.
                                      • Alex Wetmore
                                        From: Mike ... You can easily do that with #10-32 and M5, in both directions. The pitch difference of 0.006mm only becomes a problem in
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Oct 28, 2013
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                                          From: Mike <mdinolfo@...>
                                          >
                                          > <begin excerpt>
                                          > #10-32 and M5 are very very similar in size. They aren't exactly the
                                          > same, but they are so close that M5 nuts work on #10-32 bolts and
                                          > visa-versa.
                                          > <end excerpt>
                                          >
                                          > It's probably OK to use a similarly sized inch lockwasher on a metric
                                          > thread (or vice versa), but do not mix metric nuts with inch
                                          > bolts/screws, and don't mix metric bolts/screws with inch nuts, except
                                          > (maybe) under emergency conditions.

                                          > If you can't get a threaded fastener pair to
                                          > screw together using only your fingertips (no wrenches) to get a full
                                          > two or three threads, it's probably a mismatch.

                                          You can easily do that with #10-32 and M5, in both directions. The pitch difference of 0.006mm only becomes a problem in very deep threaded nuts (much more than 1cm of threads). Try it at a hardware store.

                                          The hole diameter for #10-32 is .198 (5.03mm) and the major thread diameter is .190 (4.83mm). The pitch is .03125" (0.794mm).

                                          The hole diameter for M5 is .197" (5mm), major thread diameter is 4.826 (.190) to 4.976mm (0.195). The pitch is 0.8mm (.0315").

                                          I mix and match any other metric and SAE fasteners, and I still would only do this in unusual circumstances. However there is no problem mixing the washers as I advised, and I think it is helpful to know how close these fasteners are.

                                          One place where you can safely interchange them is using nylon #10-32 bolts (easy to find in the US) to fill unused M5 frame fittings on lightweight bicycles.

                                          alex
                                        • Alex Wetmore
                                          Lowe s is barely a hardware store. Ace Hardware (at least in Seattle, and other cities that I ve checked) normally has a good selection of fasteners. I do use
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Oct 28, 2013
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                                            Lowe's is barely a hardware store.

                                            Ace Hardware (at least in Seattle, and other cities that I've checked) normally has a good selection of fasteners.

                                            I do use McMaster for big orders:

                                            We ordered fasteners for 8 of these kits about 5 years ago and split them up amongst friends.

                                            alex

                                            From: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com <Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of peter.pilot@... <peter.pilot@...>
                                            Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 8:25 AM
                                            To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: RE: RE: [Geared_hub_bikes] M5 lockwashers (was: IG hub torque to frame)
                                             


                                            Thanks Alex. I'm also a very satisfied McMasters customer and wish I'd thought to order them last time I made a purchase. They were the source for shims to fit an assist hub to my GF's bike when the hub scrapped the inner fork. 


                                            The Lowes is literally around the corner from me but has the worst inventory of fasteners I've ever seen.  10-32, you would think I'd have figured that out. Thanks!


                                            The really "Good" Tru-Value closed, the next best is 5 miles/:50 minutes round trip in No. VA traffic. And where I got the last ones I purchased to fit my Velo-Orange porteur rack on my commuter bike. Which didn't come with the length of bolt necessary for the fender to the rack boss. Rolls eyes . . . 


                                            If I had to work retail, it'd either be hardware or bicycles.



                                            ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                            You can get them at any hardware store.  If your hardware store doesn't carry metric sizes (that is rare these days) then get a #10 stainless lock washer.

                                            #10-32 and M5 are very very similar in size.  They aren't exactly the same, but they are so close that M5 nuts work on #10-32 bolts and visa-versa.  Washers interchange between them very well.

                                            alex

                                            <Snip>


                                          • Mike
                                            OK, I stand corrected.
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Oct 28, 2013
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                                              OK, I stand corrected.

                                              On 10/28/2013 11:59 AM, Alex Wetmore wrote:
                                               

                                              From: Mike <mdinolfo@...>
                                              >
                                              > <begin excerpt>
                                              > #10-32 and M5 are very very similar in size. They aren't exactly the
                                              > same, but they are so close that M5 nuts work on #10-32 bolts and
                                              > visa-versa.
                                              > <end excerpt>
                                              >
                                              > It's probably OK to use a similarly sized inch lockwasher on a metric
                                              > thread (or vice versa), but do not mix metric nuts with inch
                                              > bolts/screws, and don't mix metric bolts/screws with inch nuts, except
                                              > (maybe) under emergency conditions.

                                              > If you can't get a threaded fastener pair to
                                              > screw together using only your fingertips (no wrenches) to get a full
                                              > two or three threads, it's probably a mismatch.

                                              You can easily do that with #10-32 and M5, in both directions. The pitch difference of 0.006mm only becomes a problem in very deep threaded nuts (much more than 1cm of threads). Try it at a hardware store.

                                              The hole diameter for #10-32 is .198 (5.03mm) and the major thread diameter is .190 (4.83mm). The pitch is .03125" (0.794mm).

                                              The hole diameter for M5 is .197" (5mm), major thread diameter is 4.826 (.190) to 4.976mm (0.195). The pitch is 0.8mm (.0315").

                                              I mix and match any other metric and SAE fasteners, and I still would only do this in unusual circumstances. However there is no problem mixing the washers as I advised, and I think it is helpful to know how close these fasteners are.

                                              One place where you can safely interchange them is using nylon #10-32 bolts (easy to find in the US) to fill unused M5 frame fittings on lightweight bicycles.

                                              alex


                                            • Alex Wetmore
                                              Correction: I mix and match any other metric and SAE fasteners should be I wouldn t mix and match any other metric and SAE fasteners
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Oct 28, 2013
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                                                Correction: "I mix and match any other metric and SAE fasteners" should be "I wouldn't mix and match any other metric and SAE fasteners"
                                                ________________________________________
                                                From: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com <Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Alex Wetmore <alex@...>
                                                Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 8:59 AM
                                                To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: RE: [Geared_hub_bikes] Mixing metric with inch fasteners (was: M5 lockwashers)

                                                From: Mike <mdinolfo@...>
                                                >
                                                > <begin excerpt>
                                                > #10-32 and M5 are very very similar in size. They aren't exactly the
                                                > same, but they are so close that M5 nuts work on #10-32 bolts and
                                                > visa-versa.
                                                > <end excerpt>
                                                >
                                                > It's probably OK to use a similarly sized inch lockwasher on a metric
                                                > thread (or vice versa), but do not mix metric nuts with inch
                                                > bolts/screws, and don't mix metric bolts/screws with inch nuts, except
                                                > (maybe) under emergency conditions.

                                                > If you can't get a threaded fastener pair to
                                                > screw together using only your fingertips (no wrenches) to get a full
                                                > two or three threads, it's probably a mismatch.

                                                You can easily do that with #10-32 and M5, in both directions. The pitch difference of 0.006mm only becomes a problem in very deep threaded nuts (much more than 1cm of threads). Try it at a hardware store.

                                                The hole diameter for #10-32 is .198 (5.03mm) and the major thread diameter is .190 (4.83mm). The pitch is .03125" (0.794mm).

                                                The hole diameter for M5 is .197" (5mm), major thread diameter is 4.826 (.190) to 4.976mm (0.195). The pitch is 0.8mm (.0315").

                                                I mix and match any other metric and SAE fasteners, and I still would only do this in unusual circumstances. However there is no problem mixing the washers as I advised, and I think it is helpful to know how close these fasteners are.

                                                One place where you can safely interchange them is using nylon #10-32 bolts (easy to find in the US) to fill unused M5 frame fittings on lightweight bicycles.

                                                alex

                                                ------------------------------------

                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              • rons_hobbies
                                                Nice! No comment on Lowes . . . the closest Ace is right outside Old Town Alexandria and their stock is for the usual urban home repairs. Can t stock what
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Oct 28, 2013
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                                                  Nice! No comment on Lowes . . .  the closest Ace is right outside Old Town Alexandria and their stock is for the usual urban home repairs. Can't stock what never moves . . .


                                                  I really miss the Tru-Value hardware store in Milford, NH where I lived for seven years. Had all the lovely yellow open stock drawers. Same as the Village Hardware does that's five miles away. Had no trouble getting what I wanted there, including some really nice, because they are thin, spring lock washers:

                                                   


                                                  Perfect for the M5 screws, and LOL, the #10 and M5 are listed together. 

                                                  I donate a fair amount to the coop, but when it starts getting into real money for patron's consumables I start to draw a line. It's usually there where I want to do a good job helping someone and can't find the hardware I want.  . .  like lock washers I routinely use at home on my own stuff out of habit. I should have been more specific earlier. Sorry.

                                                  Ron

                                                  ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                  Lowe's is barely a hardware store.

                                                  Ace Hardware (at least in Seattle, and other cities that I've checked) normally has a good selection of fasteners.

                                                  I do use McMaster for big orders:

                                                  We ordered fasteners for 8 of these kits about 5 years ago and split them up amongst friends.

                                                  alex

                                                  From: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com <Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of peter.pilot@... <peter.pilot@...>
                                                  Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 8:25 AM
                                                  To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: RE: RE: [Geared_hub_bikes] M5 lockwashers (was: IG hub torque to frame)
                                                   


                                                  Thanks Alex. I'm also a very satisfied McMasters customer and wish I'd thought to order them last time I made a purchase. They were the source for shims to fit an assist hub to my GF's bike when the hub scrapped the inner fork. 


                                                  The Lowes is literally around the corner from me but has the worst inventory of fasteners I've ever seen.  10-32, you would think I'd have figured that out. Thanks!


                                                  The really "Good" Tru-Value closed, the next best is 5 miles/:50 minutes round trip in No. VA traffic. And where I got the last ones I purchased to fit my Velo-Orange porteur rack on my commuter bike. Which didn't come with the length of bolt necessary for the fender to the rack boss. Rolls eyes . . . 


                                                  If I had to work retail, it'd either be hardware or bicycles.



                                                  ---In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, <geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                  You can get them at any hardware store.  If your hardware store doesn't carry metric sizes (that is rare these days) then get a #10 stainless lock washer.

                                                  #10-32 and M5 are very very similar in size.  They aren't exactly the same, but they are so close that M5 nuts work on #10-32 bolts and visa-versa.  Washers interchange between them very well.

                                                  alex

                                                  <Snip>


                                                • John S. Allen
                                                  For a good selection of fasteners in the Boston area, I reocmmend Swartz Hardware, on Washington Street in Newtonville. ... John S. Allen Technical
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Oct 28, 2013
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                                                    For a good selection of fasteners in the Boston area, I reocmmend
                                                    Swartz Hardware, on Washington Street in Newtonville.

                                                    At 01:56 PM 10/28/2013, peter.pilot@... wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >Nice! No comment on Lowes . . . the closest Ace is right outside
                                                    >Old Town Alexandria and their stock is for the usual urban home
                                                    >repairs. Can't stock what never moves . . .

                                                    John S. Allen

                                                    Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com

                                                    League Cycling Instructor #77-C

                                                    jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
                                                    http://bikexprt.com
                                                    http://john-s-allen.com/blog
                                                    http://bostonbiker.org/streetsmarts
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