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SRAM iMotion3 problem

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  • hubmanholland
    HELP! I ve just stripped and cleaned a SRAM i-Motion 3 (post 2007 version where the shifter cable goes into the hub innards) but I have a problem that is
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 30, 2013
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      HELP!

      I've just stripped and cleaned a SRAM i-Motion 3 (post 2007 version where the shifter cable goes into the hub innards) but I have a problem that is foxing me. I think it is something to do with the pawls but can't track it down.

      When the shifter cable is pulled (3rd gear) the wheel will only make maximum a half rotation and then locks up. Fortunately I haven't tried to actually ride it yet or I would probably have wrecked it. Anyone know what have I put back wrong?

      Is this something to do with the driver assembly? There is a sort of sheath that moves with the clutch and covers two of the pawls. What I don't really understand is why there are two sets of two pawls on the driver unit that face in opposite directions. Can someone explain this to me?

      Shame there isn't better information for this hub on the web. I can only find the SRAM PDFs which are a bit short on detail in comparison to the Shimano Tech Docs.

      Thanks for any pointers!

      Simon
    • Zack B
      #1-Is this a coaster or a non-coaster version? #2-How far did you take it apart? On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:54 AM, hubmanholland ... -- -Zack
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 30, 2013
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        #1-Is this a coaster or a non-coaster version?

        #2-How far did you take it apart?




        On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:54 AM, hubmanholland <hubstripping@...> wrote:
         

        HELP!

        I've just stripped and cleaned a SRAM i-Motion 3 (post 2007 version where the shifter cable goes into the hub innards) but I have a problem that is foxing me. I think it is something to do with the pawls but can't track it down.

        When the shifter cable is pulled (3rd gear) the wheel will only make maximum a half rotation and then locks up. Fortunately I haven't tried to actually ride it yet or I would probably have wrecked it. Anyone know what have I put back wrong?

        Is this something to do with the driver assembly? There is a sort of sheath that moves with the clutch and covers two of the pawls. What I don't really understand is why there are two sets of two pawls on the driver unit that face in opposite directions. Can someone explain this to me?

        Shame there isn't better information for this hub on the web. I can only find the SRAM PDFs which are a bit short on detail in comparison to the Shimano Tech Docs.

        Thanks for any pointers!

        Simon




        --
        -Zack
      • hubmanholland
        Hi Zack, 1. It s the coaster version 2. I took completely apart, right down to the bare axle. Simon
        Message 3 of 12 , May 1, 2013
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          Hi Zack,

          1. It's the coaster version
          2. I took completely apart, right down to the bare axle.

          Simon

          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Zack B <zoombomber@...> wrote:
          >
          > #1-Is this a coaster or a non-coaster version?
          >
          > #2-How far did you take it apart?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:54 AM, hubmanholland
          > <hubstripping@...>wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > HELP!
          > >
          > > I've just stripped and cleaned a SRAM i-Motion 3 (post 2007 version where
          > > the shifter cable goes into the hub innards) but I have a problem that is
          > > foxing me. I think it is something to do with the pawls but can't track it
          > > down.
          > >
          > > When the shifter cable is pulled (3rd gear) the wheel will only make
          > > maximum a half rotation and then locks up. Fortunately I haven't tried to
          > > actually ride it yet or I would probably have wrecked it. Anyone know what
          > > have I put back wrong?
          > >
          > > Is this something to do with the driver assembly? There is a sort of
          > > sheath that moves with the clutch and covers two of the pawls. What I don't
          > > really understand is why there are two sets of two pawls on the driver unit
          > > that face in opposite directions. Can someone explain this to me?
          > >
          > > Shame there isn't better information for this hub on the web. I can only
          > > find the SRAM PDFs which are a bit short on detail in comparison to the
          > > Shimano Tech Docs.
          > >
          > > Thanks for any pointers!
          > >
          > > Simon
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > -Zack
          >
        • Benjamin Nead
          Hi Simon . . . Although you might already have it from SRAM. Aaron s has an exploded assembly view of the coater brake i-Motion 3 on their site . . .
          Message 4 of 12 , May 1, 2013
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            Hi Simon . . .

            Although you might already have it from SRAM. Aaron's has an exploded
            assembly view of the coater brake
            i-Motion 3 on their site . . .

            http://www.rideyourbike.com/sramIGH.shtml

            Scrolling down further on that same page, I find it interesting that
            they note, on the the i-Motion 9 exploded view,
            the presence of a "one use" nut that, when removed, can not be
            reattached! Hopefully, there isn't something like
            that lurking inside the 3 speed version.

            For the non-rebuildable 9, they recommend a kerosene bath (we could all
            get into another long discussion here on IGH
            regarding hub cleaning liquids, but let's not,) drying, lubing with Phil
            Wood Tenacious Oil and blue marine grease on
            the gear teeth and ball bearings. It might be hindsight to state it but
            this is probably a good annual routine for a 3, instead
            of a complete rebuild.

            Hope you're able to get you're i-Motion 3 up and running again, Simon.
            The potential good news, if you can't, is that
            complete replacements are around $100 or less . . . which is
            significantly less than many hubs out there.

            Ben in Tucson

            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



            > Hi Zack,
            >
            > 1. It's the coaster version
            > 2. I took completely apart, right down to the bare axle.
            >
            > Simon
            >
            > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>, Zack B <zoombomber@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > #1-Is this a coaster or a non-coaster version?
            > >
            > > #2-How far did you take it apart?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:54 AM, hubmanholland
            > > <hubstripping@...>wrote:
            > >
            > > > **
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > HELP!
            > > >
            > > > I've just stripped and cleaned a SRAM i-Motion 3 (post 2007
            > version where
            > > > the shifter cable goes into the hub innards) but I have a problem
            > that is
            > > > foxing me. I think it is something to do with the pawls but can't
            > track it
            > > > down.
            > > >
            > > > When the shifter cable is pulled (3rd gear) the wheel will only make
            > > > maximum a half rotation and then locks up. Fortunately I haven't
            > tried to
            > > > actually ride it yet or I would probably have wrecked it. Anyone
            > know what
            > > > have I put back wrong?
            > > >
            > > > Is this something to do with the driver assembly? There is a sort of
            > > > sheath that moves with the clutch and covers two of the pawls.
            > What I don't
            > > > really understand is why there are two sets of two pawls on the
            > driver unit
            > > > that face in opposite directions. Can someone explain this to me?
            > > >
            > > > Shame there isn't better information for this hub on the web. I
            > can only
            > > > find the SRAM PDFs which are a bit short on detail in comparison
            > to the
            > > > Shimano Tech Docs.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks for any pointers!
            > > >
            > > > Simon
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --
            > > -Zack
            > >
            >
            >
          • hubmanholland
            Hi Ben, I checked Aaron s site and I had that exploded drawing already from SRAM s document, thanks. I didn t come across anything that seemed like a single
            Message 5 of 12 , May 2, 2013
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              Hi Ben,

              I checked Aaron's site and I had that exploded drawing already from SRAM's document, thanks. I didn't come across anything that seemed like a single use nut.

              As far as the clean and lube is concerned, as earlier reported here, I have always used cleaning gasoline, motor oil and lithium grease. I have no idea if blue marine grease is available here in the Netherlands. We have plenty of boats though! Actually the reason for the complete rebuild was that someone gave me the bike because the rear wheel was in a bad way. It turned out that one of the ball bearing rings had disintegrated and there were ball bearings and chunks of the bearing holder all through the hub, so I needed to check carefully for damaged parts in the gears.

              You are correct about the price of the i-Motion 3. I've just seen that my normal supplier (hollandbikeshop.com) is selling a complete unit, including outer shell for just 55 Euros (roughly 72 USD). This has to be my last resort as I am selling this bike on and I'm not likely to get much more than twice that price for the whole bike. Sadly, I can't see just the innards for sale.

              I'm going to have a last look today to see if I can track down the problem with the exploded view. Thanks for your tips.

              Simon

              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Nead <mcnead@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Simon . . .
              >
              > Although you might already have it from SRAM. Aaron's has an exploded
              > assembly view of the coater brake
              > i-Motion 3 on their site . . .
              >
              > http://www.rideyourbike.com/sramIGH.shtml
              >
              > Scrolling down further on that same page, I find it interesting that
              > they note, on the the i-Motion 9 exploded view,
              > the presence of a "one use" nut that, when removed, can not be
              > reattached! Hopefully, there isn't something like
              > that lurking inside the 3 speed version.
              >
              > For the non-rebuildable 9, they recommend a kerosene bath (we could all
              > get into another long discussion here on IGH
              > regarding hub cleaning liquids, but let's not,) drying, lubing with Phil
              > Wood Tenacious Oil and blue marine grease on
              > the gear teeth and ball bearings. It might be hindsight to state it but
              > this is probably a good annual routine for a 3, instead
              > of a complete rebuild.
              >
              > Hope you're able to get you're i-Motion 3 up and running again, Simon.
              > The potential good news, if you can't, is that
              > complete replacements are around $100 or less . . . which is
              > significantly less than many hubs out there.
              >
              > Ben in Tucson
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              >
              > > Hi Zack,
              > >
              > > 1. It's the coaster version
              > > 2. I took completely apart, right down to the bare axle.
              > >
              > > Simon
            • pj
              Simon, Your are correct that the iMotion3 hub does not make use of any single use components the way the iMotion9 does (did!). One will also find that the
              Message 6 of 12 , May 2, 2013
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                Simon,

                Your are correct that the iMotion3 hub does not make use of any single use components the way the iMotion9 does (did!). One will also find that the iMotion3 doesn't have roller bearings like the Rohloff, helical cut gears like the Alfine11, or four planets like a Sturmey AW. It is in fact a different gear hub than all other gear hubs.

                So, on to your problem. You have mistakenly installed the gear carrier pawls next to and opposing the driver pawls! See:

                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Geared_hub_bikes/photos/album/1313128854/pic/1928837998/view>

                There are four sets of pawls: one pair (only) in the driver subassembly, one pair in the pawl carrier subassembly, one pair in the ring gear subassembly and one pair in the gear carrier.

                > Shame there isn't better information for this hub on
                >the web. I can only find the SRAM PDFs which are a bit
                > short on detail in comparison to the Shimano Tech Docs.

                If one is not used to working with technical drawings, perhaps the photographs in Shimano's documentation are easier to follow. However, several sections of the Shimano Tech Docs end with "do not disassemble further". If you're hunting shattered ball carrier swarf, I think you'd find that comes up a bit short.

                Best,
                pj
              • pj
                ... FWIW, the SRAM tech manual iMotoin3 pages specifically caution against dunking the planetary gear carrier subassembly and driver subassembly in a degreaser
                Message 7 of 12 , May 2, 2013
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                  > For the non-rebuildable 9, they recommend a kerosene bath (we could all
                  > get into another long discussion here on IGH
                  > regarding hub cleaning liquids, but let's not,) drying, lubing with Phil
                  > Wood Tenacious Oil and blue marine grease on
                  > the gear teeth and ball bearings. It might be hindsight to state it but
                  > this is probably a good annual routine for a 3, instead
                  > of a complete rebuild.

                  FWIW, the SRAM tech manual iMotoin3 pages specifically caution against dunking the planetary gear carrier subassembly and driver subassembly in a degreaser bath.

                  pj
                • pj
                  ... WAIT A MINUTE! You ve got the coaster brake version, don t you? Sorry, big DUH there, I was looking at my no-brake version. So it turns out I have no
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 2, 2013
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                    > So, on to your problem. You have mistakenly installed
                    > the gear carrier pawls next to and opposing the driver pawls! See:
                    >
                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Geared_hub_bikes/photos/album/1313128854/pic/1928837998/view>
                    >
                    > There are four sets of pawls: one pair (only) in the driver
                    > subassembly, one pair in the pawl carrier subassembly, one
                    > pair in the ring gear subassembly and one pair in the gear
                    > carrier.



                    WAIT A MINUTE! You've got the coaster brake version, don't you? Sorry, big DUH there, I was looking at my no-brake version. So it turns out I have no idea what's wrong with yours! LOL!

                    Best,
                    pj
                  • pj
                    ... Venturing a guess: the counter poised pawls are a part of the back pedal brake. They provide drive when you pedal forwards, and when you back pedal the
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 2, 2013
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                      > I've just stripped and cleaned a SRAM i-Motion 3... but I have
                      > a problem that is foxing me. I think it is something to do with
                      > the pawls but can't track it down.
                      >
                      > When the shifter cable is pulled (3rd gear) the wheel will only
                      > make maximum a half rotation and then locks up. Fortunately
                      > I haven't tried to actually ride it yet or I would probably have
                      > wrecked it. Anyone know what have I put back wrong?
                      >
                      > Is this something to do with the driver assembly? There is a sort
                      > of sheath that moves with the clutch and covers two of the pawls.
                      > What I don't really understand is why there are two sets of two pawls
                      > on the driver unit that face in opposite directions. Can someone
                      > explain this to me?


                      Venturing a guess: the counter poised pawls are a part of the back pedal brake. They provide drive when you pedal forwards, and when you back pedal the sheath (control washer) uncovers the other set of pawls and allows braking.

                      I note this cryptic message in the reassembly section of the tech manual: "The pawls must lie in the recesses of the control washer."

                      pj
                    • Zack B
                      After I detonated the IM3 coaster brake on my Swobo Otis, the hub would completely lock up in 3rd gear. By stripping and rebuilding it a few times I was able
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 4, 2013
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                        After I detonated the IM3 coaster brake on my Swobo Otis, the hub would completely lock up in 3rd gear.

                        By stripping and rebuilding it a few times I was able to get it to function in 3rd gear again.
                        I am not exactly sure what the difference was, but getting the planetary gear carrier properly situated seems to a have been important.

                        See page 45, step 17, #53 &54 here:

                        http://www.sram.com/sites/default/files/techdocs/sram-techmanual-my10-gearhubsystems-english-reva.pdf





                        On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:54 AM, hubmanholland <hubstripping@...> wrote:
                         

                        HELP!

                        I've just stripped and cleaned a SRAM i-Motion 3 (post 2007 version where the shifter cable goes into the hub innards) but I have a problem that is foxing me. I think it is something to do with the pawls but can't track it down.

                        When the shifter cable is pulled (3rd gear) the wheel will only make maximum a half rotation and then locks up. Fortunately I haven't tried to actually ride it yet or I would probably have wrecked it. Anyone know what have I put back wrong?

                        Is this something to do with the driver assembly? There is a sort of sheath that moves with the clutch and covers two of the pawls. What I don't really understand is why there are two sets of two pawls on the driver unit that face in opposite directions. Can someone explain this to me?

                        Shame there isn't better information for this hub on the web. I can only find the SRAM PDFs which are a bit short on detail in comparison to the Shimano Tech Docs.

                        Thanks for any pointers!

                        Simon




                        --
                        -Zack
                      • hubmanholland
                        Dear all, Thanks for your advice. I also found that on the fourth or fifth rebuild it all seemed to just work. I am not aware that I changed anything or did
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 8, 2013
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                          Dear all,

                          Thanks for your advice. I also found that on the fourth or fifth rebuild it all seemed to just work. I am not aware that I changed anything or did anything different. Odd business.

                          Just a couple of final niggles. Firstly, to lock the brake side bearing you need at least one thin flat 22mm spanner, which I don't have, as there are two thin 22mm lock nuts.

                          Secondly, despite thoroughly greasing it, the coaster brake is squeaking like train horn when applied! I've re-greased several simple gear-less coaster brakes in this way in the past and not had this issue. Will this improve with use?

                          Simon

                          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Zack B <zoombomber@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > After I detonated the IM3 coaster brake on my Swobo Otis, the hub would
                          > completely lock up in 3rd gear.
                          >
                          > By stripping and rebuilding it a few times I was able to get it to function
                          > in 3rd gear again.
                          > I am not exactly sure what the difference was, but getting the planetary
                          > gear carrier properly situated seems to a have been important.
                          >
                          > See page 45, step 17, #53 &54 here:
                          >
                          > http://www.sram.com/sites/default/files/techdocs/sram-techmanual-my10-gearhubsystems-english-reva.pdf
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:54 AM, hubmanholland
                          > <hubstripping@...>wrote:
                          >
                          > > **
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > HELP!
                          > >
                          > > I've just stripped and cleaned a SRAM i-Motion 3 (post 2007 version where
                          > > the shifter cable goes into the hub innards) but I have a problem that is
                          > > foxing me. I think it is something to do with the pawls but can't track it
                          > > down.
                          > >
                          > > When the shifter cable is pulled (3rd gear) the wheel will only make
                          > > maximum a half rotation and then locks up. Fortunately I haven't tried to
                          > > actually ride it yet or I would probably have wrecked it. Anyone know what
                          > > have I put back wrong?
                          > >
                          > > Is this something to do with the driver assembly? There is a sort of
                          > > sheath that moves with the clutch and covers two of the pawls. What I don't
                          > > really understand is why there are two sets of two pawls on the driver unit
                          > > that face in opposite directions. Can someone explain this to me?
                          > >
                          > > Shame there isn't better information for this hub on the web. I can only
                          > > find the SRAM PDFs which are a bit short on detail in comparison to the
                          > > Shimano Tech Docs.
                          > >
                          > > Thanks for any pointers!
                          > >
                          > > Simon
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > -Zack
                          >
                        • Zack B
                          Try spraying the coaster brake parts with wd-40 before greasing them. ... -- -Zack
                          Message 12 of 12 , May 8, 2013
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                            Try spraying the coaster brake parts with wd-40 before greasing them.


                            On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:14 PM, hubmanholland <hubstripping@...> wrote:
                             

                            Dear all,

                            Thanks for your advice. I also found that on the fourth or fifth rebuild it all seemed to just work. I am not aware that I changed anything or did anything different. Odd business.

                            Just a couple of final niggles. Firstly, to lock the brake side bearing you need at least one thin flat 22mm spanner, which I don't have, as there are two thin 22mm lock nuts.

                            Secondly, despite thoroughly greasing it, the coaster brake is squeaking like train horn when applied! I've re-greased several simple gear-less coaster brakes in this way in the past and not had this issue. Will this improve with use?



                            Simon

                            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Zack B <zoombomber@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > After I detonated the IM3 coaster brake on my Swobo Otis, the hub would
                            > completely lock up in 3rd gear.
                            >
                            > By stripping and rebuilding it a few times I was able to get it to function
                            > in 3rd gear again.
                            > I am not exactly sure what the difference was, but getting the planetary
                            > gear carrier properly situated seems to a have been important.
                            >
                            > See page 45, step 17, #53 &54 here:
                            >
                            > http://www.sram.com/sites/default/files/techdocs/sram-techmanual-my10-gearhubsystems-english-reva.pdf
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:54 AM, hubmanholland
                            > <hubstripping@...>wrote:
                            >
                            > > **

                            > >
                            > >
                            > > HELP!
                            > >
                            > > I've just stripped and cleaned a SRAM i-Motion 3 (post 2007 version where
                            > > the shifter cable goes into the hub innards) but I have a problem that is
                            > > foxing me. I think it is something to do with the pawls but can't track it
                            > > down.
                            > >
                            > > When the shifter cable is pulled (3rd gear) the wheel will only make
                            > > maximum a half rotation and then locks up. Fortunately I haven't tried to
                            > > actually ride it yet or I would probably have wrecked it. Anyone know what
                            > > have I put back wrong?
                            > >
                            > > Is this something to do with the driver assembly? There is a sort of
                            > > sheath that moves with the clutch and covers two of the pawls. What I don't
                            > > really understand is why there are two sets of two pawls on the driver unit
                            > > that face in opposite directions. Can someone explain this to me?
                            > >
                            > > Shame there isn't better information for this hub on the web. I can only
                            > > find the SRAM PDFs which are a bit short on detail in comparison to the
                            > > Shimano Tech Docs.
                            > >
                            > > Thanks for any pointers!
                            > >
                            > > Simon
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > -Zack
                            >




                            --
                            -Zack
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