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Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Sturmey Archer 5 speed, how it works.

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  • Zack B
    On Mar 23, 2013 12:42 PM, aarons_bicycle_repair ... drum version. Has anyone seen anything to indicate there will be any non-coaster
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 23, 2013
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      On Mar 23, 2013 12:42 PM, "aarons_bicycle_repair" <aaron@...> wrote:
      >I am very interested in seeing the new G8. Too bad it does not come in a drum version.

      Has anyone seen anything to indicate there will be any non-coaster brake versions of the g-8?

    • pj
      ... Sure. I ve even posted links here to photos of upcoming 2013 OEM bikes with G8 discs. pj
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 23, 2013
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        > Has anyone seen anything to indicate there will be any non-coaster brake
        > versions of the g-8?

        Sure. I've even posted links here to photos of upcoming 2013 OEM bikes with G8 discs. pj
      • Dan Burkhart
        5 speeds with 250ish% range is ideal for so many applications. If they could just make it totally bomb proof, maybe we could convince more people that they
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 26, 2013
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          5 speeds with 250ish% range is ideal for so many applications. If they could just make it totally bomb proof, maybe we could convince more people that they really don't need 27 gears.
          I wonder how many sun gears have been fractured when some curious sort tore the hub down just to see how it works, and re-assembled it without knowing about the critical step of aligning the timing marks.
          Not a slam against curious people,that's how you learn things. Just that this is one of those things you don't want to learn the hard (expensive) way.

          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "aarons_bicycle_repair" <aaron@...> wrote:
          >
          > In the older English ball locking hubs, I see the sun gears fracture.
          > In the Taiwan version the sliding rod inside the axle gets damaged (dented or brinnelled)as does the inside of the sun gears.
          > Just one of the many reasons we don't recommend folks stand up on the pedals.
          > Taiwan needs to harden their parts better. The sliding keys on the 5(w) hubs are just too soft. 5 speeds are great, I just wish they could come up with a design that is durable!
          >
          > SRAM Spectro 7 and Pentasport 5 speed hubs have the best, by far sun gear engagement of any hub in this class. And if the key fails, it does not damage any of the rest of the hub and the hub defaults to normal middle 1:1 gear. Great design, durable, 4 different versions for all your braking needs and reasonably priced. So they discontinued it!
          >
          > I am very interested in seeing the new G8. Too bad it does not come in a drum version.
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Burkhart" <boomer5319@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I have read about issues like that, but never experienced any such problems myself. I've been riding one for about 7 years with no issues. I weigh somewhere in the 250 range, and I don't baby it. I've used it to pull a cargo trailer,with some pretty good loads too.
          > > I sold and installed a few for customers before I closed my shop, and never an issue.
          > > I think Aaron has related some problems he's seen with them, but there are some pretty serious hills in his town, so maybe that has something to do with it.
          > >
          >
        • pj
          ... I don t own one nor have I ever inspected one, but I ve read on the net (and as we all know, if you see it on the internet, it must be true!) that the
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 26, 2013
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            > I wonder how many sun gears have been fractured when
            > some curious sort tore the hub down just to see how it works,
            > and re-assembled it without knowing about the critical step
            > of aligning the timing marks.

            I don't own one nor have I ever inspected one, but I've read on the 'net (and as we all know, if you see it on the internet, it must be true!) that the HSA675 Planet Cage, Pinion and Sun Gear Assembly in the S-A 5(W) hubs is not intended to be disassembled and there are NO timing marks on the planets. If that's true, and one has an irresistible urge to strip down their HSA675, perhaps the planets should be marked before disassembly!

            Otherwise, I see the HSA675 is available as an individual spare part.

            pj
          • Dan Burkhart
            There is another way to set the timing without the marks. If you look closely, you will see that the timing marks correspond with the position where each of
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 26, 2013
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              There is another way to set the timing without the marks. If you look closely, you will see that the timing marks correspond with the position where each of the planet pinions has a tooth aligned with it's ajacent partner. This is the point where each planet shaft must return to simultaneously each revoulution.
              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "pj" <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:
              >
              > > I wonder how many sun gears have been fractured when
              > > some curious sort tore the hub down just to see how it works,
              > > and re-assembled it without knowing about the critical step
              > > of aligning the timing marks.
              >
              > I don't own one nor have I ever inspected one, but I've read on the 'net (and as we all know, if you see it on the internet, it must be true!) that the HSA675 Planet Cage, Pinion and Sun Gear Assembly in the S-A 5(W) hubs is not intended to be disassembled and there are NO timing marks on the planets. If that's true, and one has an irresistible urge to strip down their HSA675, perhaps the planets should be marked before disassembly!
              >
              > Otherwise, I see the HSA675 is available as an individual spare part.
              >
              > pj
              >
            • jpbabic
              I confess that I am having trouble following you here. Could you explain this another way? ... closely, you will see that the timing marks correspond with the
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 27, 2013
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                I confess that I am having trouble following you here.  Could you explain this another way?
                --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Burkhart" <boomer5319@...> wrote:
                > There is another way to set the timing without the marks. If you look closely, you will see that the timing marks correspond with the position where each of the planet pinions has a tooth aligned with it's ajacent partner. This is the point where each planet shaft must return to simultaneously each revoulution.
              • Dan Burkhart
                Is it the concept you re having trouble with or my attempt at explaining it? The concept is one I was first introduced to many years ago when I took service
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 28, 2013
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                  Is it the concept you're having trouble with or my attempt at explaining it?
                  The concept is one I was first introduced to many years ago when I took service training on heavy truck transmissions. These units have twin or triple countershafts and the same timing requirements as stepped planetaries.
                  The best I can explain it is the way I remember it explained all those years ago.
                  When stepped multiple countershafts are in mesh with gears of varying size, there must be a common return point. If you took a countershaft and looked down the shaft at the timing marks, you would see a line where one tooth on each gear is aligned with a tooth on the next gear, all in line with the timing mark.These aligned teeth on each shaft must return to the mainshaft gear in unison or the mainshaft (sun) gears will try to climb out of equalibrium. This will result in failure, after how long depends on how much out of phase they are.
                  Sorry if my phrasing is hard to follow. Maybe there is someone that can explain it better.
                  Meanwhile, I did do a video on this a while back.
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9A8XWPzwVg

                  --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "jpbabic" <jbabic@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I confess that I am having trouble following you here. Could you
                  > explain this another way?
                  >
                • jpbabic
                  ... explaining it? Both?? ... The video explained it very well. I think I stumbled on the term adjacent in your post numbered 8387, where I could not
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 29, 2013
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                    > Is it the concept you're having trouble with or my attempt at
                    explaining it?
                    Both??


                    > Meanwhile, I did do a video on this a while back.
                    > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9A8XWPzwVg
                    The video explained it very well.

                    I think I stumbled on the term 'adjacent' in your post numbered 8387,
                    where I could not conclude if you meant planet pinions that share the
                    same shaft, or it's neighbor one shaft over. In some sense, I suppose
                    the term could apply to both meanings, no?

                    I have no doubt there are better ways to describe the concept of timing
                    these gears. I very often struggle with wording these sorts of things,
                    and of course I don't know the technical language, though I'm learning
                    it some here and from reading Jobst Brandt on his experiences with SA
                    hub gears. Here's some links to what I've been reading - and more:

                    http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/index.html
                    http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sturmey-archer.html
                    http://yarchive.net/bike/sturmey_archer_hubs.html

                    Short of writing a chapter on planetary gear timing, your video does
                    nicely. Thanks for another great video.
                  • Dan Burkhart
                    That was some interesting reading, thanks. I think I did read that some time in the past. It has more to do with the issues adressed by the NIG re-design
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 29, 2013
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                      That was some interesting reading, thanks. I think I did read that some time in the past.
                      It has more to do with the issues adressed by the NIG re-design though. I was always under the impression that the false neutral had more to do with faulty shifter adjustment than clutches slipping off the drive pins, but Jobst makes some good points.

                      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "jpbabic" <jbabic@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > > Is it the concept you're having trouble with or my attempt at
                      > explaining it?
                      > Both??
                      >
                      >
                      > > Meanwhile, I did do a video on this a while back.
                      > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9A8XWPzwVg
                      > The video explained it very well.
                      >
                      > I think I stumbled on the term 'adjacent' in your post numbered 8387,
                      > where I could not conclude if you meant planet pinions that share the
                      > same shaft, or it's neighbor one shaft over. In some sense, I suppose
                      > the term could apply to both meanings, no?
                      >
                      > I have no doubt there are better ways to describe the concept of timing
                      > these gears. I very often struggle with wording these sorts of things,
                      > and of course I don't know the technical language, though I'm learning
                      > it some here and from reading Jobst Brandt on his experiences with SA
                      > hub gears. Here's some links to what I've been reading - and more:
                      >
                      > http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/index.html
                      > http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sturmey-archer.html
                      > http://yarchive.net/bike/sturmey_archer_hubs.html
                      >
                      > Short of writing a chapter on planetary gear timing, your video does
                      > nicely. Thanks for another great video.
                      >
                    • jpbabic
                      Hey, Dan - are you open to requests on your instructional videos? Would you please present a list of tools required on your videos? I am gathering the tools I
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 29, 2013
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                        Hey, Dan - are you open to requests on your instructional videos?

                        Would you please present a list of tools required on your videos? I am
                        gathering the tools I think I'll need in advance.

                        I own a Mercier Kilo WT5 from BikesDirect, which has the Sturmey Archer
                        five speed wide range hub. I'd like to see how the S-RF5(W) is holding
                        up. Using your videos as a guide I intend to open it up for cleaning
                        and inspection.

                        I was able to get a Sturmey Archer HTR 130 C spanner wrench for the ball
                        ring removal. I think the other specialty tool needed for this would be
                        a cone wrench, but am unsure what size. I think the current production
                        S-RF5(W) uses a 16mm cone wrench. Suppose you could confirm this?

                        Muchos gracias, senior.


                        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Burkhart" <boomer5319@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Here's the next installment in the "How it works" series.
                        >
                        > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_Z0H2U6ejs
                        >
                      • Dan Burkhart
                        Sorry for the delay. Haven t checked in here for a bit. You are correct, the cone wrench required is a 16mm.
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 2, 2013
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                          Sorry for the delay. Haven't checked in here for a bit.
                          You are correct, the cone wrench required is a 16mm.

                          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "jpbabic" <jbabic@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hey, Dan - are you open to requests on your instructional videos?
                          >
                          > Would you please present a list of tools required on your videos? I am
                          > gathering the tools I think I'll need in advance.
                          >
                          > I own a Mercier Kilo WT5 from BikesDirect, which has the Sturmey Archer
                          > five speed wide range hub. I'd like to see how the S-RF5(W) is holding
                          > up. Using your videos as a guide I intend to open it up for cleaning
                          > and inspection.
                          >
                          > I was able to get a Sturmey Archer HTR 130 C spanner wrench for the ball
                          > ring removal. I think the other specialty tool needed for this would be
                          > a cone wrench, but am unsure what size. I think the current production
                          > S-RF5(W) uses a 16mm cone wrench. Suppose you could confirm this?
                          >
                          > Muchos gracias, senior.
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Burkhart" <boomer5319@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Here's the next installment in the "How it works" series.
                          > >
                          > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_Z0H2U6ejs
                          > >
                          >
                        • jpbabic
                          ... It appears that to disassemble it would be to destroy it. From what I can tell the cage is held together by what I can best describe as rivets, or pins
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 26, 2013
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                            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "pj" <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:

                            >...the HSA675 Planet Cage, Pinion and Sun Gear Assembly in the S-A 5(W) hubs is not intended to be disassembled...

                            It appears that to disassemble it would be to destroy it. From what I can tell the cage is held together by what I can best describe as rivets, or pins that are mashed to hold the end-plates in position.

                            ... and there are NO timing marks on the planets.

                            The planet gears are marked on mine, and they are marked according to Dan's advice about tooth alignment.
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