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Sturmey Archer "Dual Drive"

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  • gordonKoppang
    This is (or may be) the first picture I ve seen of the Sturmey Archer dual drive hub. Sorry, I can t remember the SA model number. I m not at all
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 14, 2013
      This is (or may be) the first picture I've seen of the Sturmey Archer "dual drive" hub. Sorry, I can't remember the SA model number. I'm not at all interested in the trike, except that it comes with the SA hub. Here's the link:

      http://www.utahtrikes.com/RECENTTRIKE-sun_eurus_20.html

      The pic of the gear hub and cassette is about the 8th one down from the top of the page. SA made some big claims for the new 3spd cassette combo when they brought it out - specifically, that it could handle a 22t granny gear and a 34t big sprocket on the cassette. Can anyone attest to the toughness of the hub? Has anyone seen a good review?

      Cheers,

      GK
    • pj
      ... It s the CS-RK3 or CS-RF3. There were pictures linked here on Geared Hub Bikes of Sturmey s CS-RK3 show bike for Interbike 2010. Tern uses the CS-RF3 hub
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 15, 2013
        > This is (or may be) the first picture I've seen of the Sturmey
        > Archer "dual drive" hub. Sorry, I can't remember the SA
        > model number.

        It's the CS-RK3 or CS-RF3. There were pictures linked here on Geared Hub Bikes of Sturmey's CS-RK3 show bike for Interbike 2010. Tern uses the CS-RF3 hub on their Link P24h.

        pj
      • Bruce
        Tern has had many problems reported on their forum of shifting issues ... if I were wanting a dual drive hub, I d use a SRAM or Sachs .. none of mine have ever
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 15, 2013
          Tern has had many problems reported on their forum of shifting issues ... if I were wanting a dual drive hub, I'd use a SRAM or Sachs .. none of mine have ever had problems (since 2003)..

          Bruce

          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "pj" <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:

          > It's the CS-RK3 or CS-RF3. There were pictures linked here on Geared Hub Bikes of Sturmey's CS-RK3 show bike for Interbike 2010. Tern uses the CS-RF3 hub on their Link P24h.
          >
          > pj
          >
        • Colin Bryant
          I don t understand the appeal of a dual drive hub.  Why not just get an IGH with enough gear range and get rid of deraulers and the extra shift lever,
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 15, 2013
            I don't understand the appeal of a dual drive hub.  Why not just get an IGH with enough gear range and get rid of deraulers and the extra shift lever, all-together?

             
            --

            Colin Bryant
            Vancouver, Canada

             


            From: Bruce <brucemetras@...>
            To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 10:07:59 AM
            Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Sturmey Archer "Dual Drive"

             
            Tern has had many problems reported on their forum of shifting issues ... if I were wanting a dual drive hub, I'd use a SRAM or Sachs .. none of mine have ever had problems (since 2003)..

            Bruce

            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "pj" <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:

            > It's the CS-RK3 or CS-RF3. There were pictures linked here on Geared Hub Bikes of Sturmey's CS-RK3 show bike for Interbike 2010. Tern uses the CS-RF3 hub on their Link P24h.
            >
            > pj
            >



          • Alex Wetmore
            I feel the same way. However the Rohloff is expensive, and it s the only viable option today that gets you triple derailleur gear range (500% or greater). The
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 15, 2013
              I feel the same way.  However the Rohloff is expensive, and it's the only viable option today that gets you triple derailleur gear range (500% or greater).

              The stupidest setup is on my Brompton M6L with a 3sp cog and a 2sp cassette.  6 speeds, evenly spaced, but every shift is a double.  It would be easier to just make the rear triangle 130mm spaced and to use an 8sp hub.

              alex


              From: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com [Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Colin Bryant [sk8ski2004@...]
              Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 12:55 PM
              To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Sturmey Archer "Dual Drive"



              I don't understand the appeal of a dual drive hub.  Why not just get an IGH with enough gear range and get rid of deraulers and the extra shift lever, all-together?

               
              --

              Colin Bryant
              Vancouver, Canada

               


              From: Bruce <brucemetras@...>
              To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 10:07:59 AM
              Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Sturmey Archer "Dual Drive"

               
              Tern has had many problems reported on their forum of shifting issues ... if I were wanting a dual drive hub, I'd use a SRAM or Sachs .. none of mine have ever had problems (since 2003)..

              Bruce

              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "pj" <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:

              > It's the CS-RK3 or CS-RF3. There were pictures linked here on Geared Hub Bikes of Sturmey's CS-RK3 show bike for Interbike 2010. Tern uses the CS-RF3 hub on their Link P24h.
              >
              > pj
              >





            • bikealfa
              I have one, a CS-RF3, purchased from evilbay for about $70. I wanted to know how S.A. did the cone for the freehub, because I was using an S.A. axle with a
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 15, 2013
                I have one, a CS-RF3, purchased from evilbay for about $70. I wanted to know how S.A. did the cone for the freehub, because I was using an S.A. axle with a Shimano freehub on my (first) bichain. I robbed the locknut.

                Discussing actual failures, I have broken a Shimano 7 speed IGH, and had to fix a design flaw in a Sachs 7 speed IGH, but I have not broken any S.A. IGH (although I know people who have broken S.A. alloy shells).

                Why do people want to use the IGH and rear cassette? Are front derailleurs and multiple sprockets so much more evil than rear derailleurs? Even if you want low-q (the lateral pedal separation distance), you do not need this - I have a 138mm q double (26-46) on my Ritchey breakaway and can duplicate that more-or-less on demand. And I was staring at it this morning based on this thought, and I believe I can get close to that q with a triple on that bike if I build a custom front derailleur.

                I know that on this list we would ordinarily consider a wide-range IGH as the alternative to IGH+rear derailleur, but I believe the standard alternative is rear derailleur and front derailleur. I believe that either alternative makes more sense than the combo. But as mentioned before, the combo in a custom form can in principle get 1008 speeds, which of course is only useful in a competition for how many speeds you can build with how few custom parts.

                Michael Wilson



                --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Alex Wetmore <alex@...> wrote:
                >
                > I feel the same way. However the Rohloff is expensive, and it's the only viable option today that gets you triple derailleur gear range (500% or greater).
                >
                > The stupidest setup is on my Brompton M6L with a 3sp cog and a 2sp cassette. 6 speeds, evenly spaced, but every shift is a double. It would be easier to just make the rear triangle 130mm spaced and to use an 8sp hub.
                >
                > alex
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com [Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Colin Bryant [sk8ski2004@...]
                > Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 12:55 PM
                > To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Sturmey Archer "Dual Drive"
                >
                >
                >
                > I don't understand the appeal of a dual drive hub. Why not just get an IGH with enough gear range and get rid of deraulers and the extra shift lever, all-together?
                >
                >
                > --
                >
                > Colin Bryant
                > Vancouver, Canada
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Bruce <brucemetras@...>
                > To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 10:07:59 AM
                > Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Sturmey Archer "Dual Drive"
                >
                >
                > Tern has had many problems reported on their forum of shifting issues ... if I were wanting a dual drive hub, I'd use a SRAM or Sachs .. none of mine have ever had problems (since 2003)..
                >
                > Bruce
                >
                > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>, "pj" <prester_john_in_cathay@> wrote:
                >
                > > It's the CS-RK3 or CS-RF3. There were pictures linked here on Geared Hub Bikes of Sturmey's CS-RK3 show bike for Interbike 2010. Tern uses the CS-RF3 hub on their Link P24h.
                > >
                > > pj
                > >
                >
              • Bruce
                One good application for a Dual Drive is on small wheeled bikes (20 406 wheels) .. it s not as easy to get gear inches over 90 without going to very large
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 15, 2013
                  One good application for a Dual Drive is on small wheeled bikes (20" 406 wheels) .. it's not as easy to get gear inches over 90 without going to very large chainrings.. a Dual Drive solves that problem easily while offering a very large gear range for situations requiring one.. here's my TSR-27 ..

                  http://tinyurl.com/9wolekf

                  Bruce

                  --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Colin Bryant <sk8ski2004@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I don't understand the appeal of a dual drive hub.  Why not just get an IGH with enough gear range and get rid of deraulers and the extra shift lever, all-together?
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  > --
                  >
                  > Colin Bryant
                  > Vancouver, Canada
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Bruce <brucemetras@...>
                  > To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 10:07:59 AM
                  > Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Sturmey Archer "Dual Drive"
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  > Tern has had many problems reported on their forum of shifting issues ... if I were wanting a dual drive hub, I'd use a SRAM or Sachs .. none of mine have ever had problems (since 2003)..
                  >
                  > Bruce
                  >
                  > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "pj" <prester_john_in_cathay@> wrote:
                  >
                  > > It's the CS-RK3 or CS-RF3. There were pictures linked here on Geared Hub Bikes of Sturmey's CS-RK3 show bike for Interbike 2010. Tern uses the CS-RF3 hub on their Link P24h.
                  > >
                  > > pj
                  > >
                  >
                • bnexus8
                  I once had a SA dual drive on a Mk2 Moulton. It was an FW with a Cyclo three speed cog set (16 - 19 - 23 iirc) and, as somebody has pointed out, it means lots
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 16, 2013
                    I once had a SA dual drive on a Mk2 Moulton. It was an FW with a Cyclo three speed cog set (16 - 19 - 23 iirc) and, as somebody has pointed out, it means lots of double changes. In those 'good old' days there wasn't any choice :0) I got that fed up with it I changed to an SA 5 (the one with two levers) and discovered that it had five gears, but they were never all at home on the same day.

                    The double changes on a Brompton M6 are why mine has a Nexus 8. It was fitted with an Alfine 11 but I downgraded its use to town bike after falling out of love with it.

                    I have a Dahon Speed TR with Sram x 7 dual drive (my favourite road bike) and it works wonderfully, but I ride mainly on the middle of the gearbox going up and down the seven derailleur cogs. I go into top of the gearbox for the top two gears and bottom for the bottom three. It does nothing that an Alfine 11 doesn't do with less complication.

                    Somebody mentioned Rohloff being 'the only viable option giving a triple derailleur gear range' and that is true, but do you need a 500% range if you are not a road racer? My Alfine 11 takes me touring with a range from 23 gear inches to 90 something. The low is the lowest I can pedal without going so slow I fall off, and the top is plenty with a heavy load. The gaps are just right.
                    I see Joe Cruz does his long distance off road tours using an Alfine 8: http://joecruz.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/revelate-designs-bags/



                    --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce" <brucemetras@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > One good application for a Dual Drive is on small wheeled bikes (20" 406 wheels) .. it's not as easy to get gear inches over 90 without going to very large chainrings.. a Dual Drive solves that problem easily while offering a very large gear range for situations requiring one.. here's my TSR-27 ..
                    >
                    > http://tinyurl.com/9wolekf
                    >
                    > Bruce
                    >
                    > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Colin Bryant <sk8ski2004@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I don't understand the appeal of a dual drive hub.  Why not just get an IGH with enough gear range and get rid of deraulers and the extra shift lever, all-together?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > > --
                    > >
                    > > Colin Bryant
                    > > Vancouver, Canada
                    > >  
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ________________________________
                    > > From: Bruce <brucemetras@>
                    > > To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 10:07:59 AM
                    > > Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Sturmey Archer "Dual Drive"
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > > Tern has had many problems reported on their forum of shifting issues ... if I were wanting a dual drive hub, I'd use a SRAM or Sachs .. none of mine have ever had problems (since 2003)..
                    > >
                    > > Bruce
                    > >
                    > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "pj" <prester_john_in_cathay@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > It's the CS-RK3 or CS-RF3. There were pictures linked here on Geared Hub Bikes of Sturmey's CS-RK3 show bike for Interbike 2010. Tern uses the CS-RF3 hub on their Link P24h.
                    > > >
                    > > > pj
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • pj
                    ... Tern also reported (as you know) that as of 5 months ago they had the problems fixed to their satisfaction and they ve stuck with the hub as OEM equipment.
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 16, 2013
                      > Tern has had many problems reported on their
                      > forum of shifting issues ...

                      Tern also reported (as you know) that as of 5 months ago they had the problems fixed to their satisfaction and they've stuck with the hub as OEM equipment.
                    • bikealfa
                      And for the record, I have no idea where my memory went. I have broken several S.A. FM/FC left ball cups (should have used steel hub shells but I did not
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 16, 2013
                        And for the record, I have no idea where my memory went. I have broken several S.A. FM/FC left ball cups (should have used steel hub shells but I did not think of that then) and an ASC sun pinion, and maybe other S.A. parts as well.

                        I led a life littered with broken bike bits.

                        Michael Wilson

                        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "bikealfa" <mtwils@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Discussing actual failures, I have broken a Shimano 7 speed IGH, and had to fix a design flaw in a Sachs 7 speed IGH, but I have not broken any S.A. IGH (although I know people who have broken S.A. alloy shells).
                        >
                      • joe ninety
                        but I ride mainly on the middle of the gearbox going up and down the seven derailleur cogs. I go into top of the gearbox for the top two gears and bottom for
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 16, 2013
                          "but I ride mainly on the middle of the gearbox going up and down the seven derailleur cogs. I go into top of the gearbox for the top two gears and bottom for the bottom three. It does nothing that an Alfine 11 doesn't do with less complication"

                          The fact that you ride most of the time with the hub in 2nd is the great advantage of this transmission. You've got the wide range when you need it, which, like most people, is rarely. You spend most of your time in direct drive with no cross shifting and only one lever to worry about. You can drop down while stopped at lights. Really, what more do you want?

                          As has been pointed out, the proper comparison is with an Alfine 11 or a Rohloff. If you didn't need the range, you would have chosen just a rear derailleur or just a 5 speed hub. It's reasonable I think to love 3 and 5 speed hubs for the situations where they're adequate, but to be wary of the efficiency losses in compound epicyclics. Your Dual Drive might not have the clean look of a Rohloff or Alfine 11, but it's less, not more, "complicated".

                          What I dream of seeing, what Sturmey could do without effort you would think, is a Dual Drive with 70mm drum. Just as Dual Drive has compelling advantages for small wheels, so do drum brakes (no rim wear or overheating, no heal clearance problems, proportionally more powerful than the same brake in a big wheel). A Sturmey DD plus drum would be a killer solution for performance small wheelers and moultons. Bring it on!

                          Simon
                        • bnexus8
                          ... Well, nothing actually. Which is why it hasn t got a Shimano 8 or 11 in it :0) I don t worry about inefficiencies in my hubs, it helps, like hills, for
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 16, 2013
                            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, joe ninety <joe.ninety90@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > The fact that you ride most of the time with the hub in 2nd is the great
                            > advantage of this transmission. You've got the wide range when you need it,
                            > which, like most people, is rarely. You spend most of your time in direct
                            > drive with no cross shifting and only one lever to worry about. You can
                            > drop down while stopped at lights. Really, what more do you want?
                            >
                            > Simon
                            >
                            Well, nothing actually. Which is why it hasn't got a Shimano 8 or 11 in it :0)
                            I don't worry about inefficiencies in my hubs, it helps, like hills, for exercise.
                          • Bruce
                            ... They may have reported the problems fixed, but that doesn t seem to be the case .. Post from disappointed user on Feb 20 2013: Dear Amanda, I have recieved
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 16, 2013
                              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "pj" <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > Tern has had many problems reported on their
                              > > forum of shifting issues ...
                              >
                              > Tern also reported (as you know) that as of 5 months ago they had the problems fixed to their satisfaction and they've stuck with the hub as OEM equipment.
                              >


                              They may have reported the problems fixed, but that doesn't seem to be the case ..

                              Post from disappointed user on Feb 20 2013:

                              Dear Amanda,

                              I have recieved and had changed the hubs. The problem is not resolved... I am very disappointed... The hubs was changed last Wednesday and I did my routine training ride and started to have the slipping issues after around 30km. I assumed that it was only tuning issues so I went back two days later to the distributor hoping that it will resolve my problem. Nope , Problem not solved... I went for my usual Wednesday training and the slipping got worst~!! Now it slips on almost all the speed on 3rd gear!!

                              And, as of March 15, 2013 .. he's still trying to get warranty work .. this has been going on for months.

                              Of note, Tern's top of the line Verge X-30 uses a SRAM Dual Drive, not S/A ..
                            • askeigkdnbceodk
                              looking at the schematics, the guts look functionally identical to their other 3 speed hubs, I wonder what the problem is. Here s the thread on the Tern Forum:
                              Message 14 of 16 , Mar 17, 2013
                                looking at the schematics, the guts look functionally identical to their other 3 speed hubs, I wonder what the problem is.

                                Here's the thread on the Tern Forum: http://www.ternbicycles.com/us/forum/link-p24h-internal-gear-slipping-problem

                                It seems most problems are due to misadjustment, either by users or clueless dealers. The SRAM clickbox is a little more intuitive to adjust for most people.

                                As mentioned previously, I would certainly prefer a drum brake on any folding bike I purchased.

                                > They may have reported the problems fixed, but that doesn't seem to be the case ..
                                >
                                > Post from disappointed user on Feb 20 2013:
                                >
                                > Dear Amanda,
                                >
                                > I have recieved and had changed the hubs. The problem is not resolved... I am very disappointed... The hubs was changed last Wednesday and I did my routine training ride and started to have the slipping issues after around 30km. I assumed that it was only tuning issues so I went back two days later to the distributor hoping that it will resolve my problem. Nope , Problem not solved... I went for my usual Wednesday training and the slipping got worst~!! Now it slips on almost all the speed on 3rd gear!!
                                >
                                > And, as of March 15, 2013 .. he's still trying to get warranty work .. this has been going on for months.
                                >
                                > Of note, Tern's top of the line Verge X-30 uses a SRAM Dual Drive, not S/A ..
                                >
                              • Zack B
                                ... clueless dealers. Just like that whole slipping-in-third-gear thing, right? And all those problems with the 8 speed? And all the S3X hubs, (almost the
                                Message 15 of 16 , Mar 17, 2013
                                  >It seems most problems are due to misadjustment, either by users or clueless dealers.


                                  Just like that whole slipping-in-third-gear thing, right?

                                  And all those problems with the 8 speed?

                                  And all the S3X hubs, (almost the entire 1st shipment from what I heard) that failed in less than a month?




                                  On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 10:42 AM, askeigkdnbceodk <jbfiets@...> wrote:
                                   


                                  looking at the schematics, the guts look functionally identical to their other 3 speed hubs, I wonder what the problem is.

                                  Here's the thread on the Tern Forum: http://www.ternbicycles.com/us/forum/link-p24h-internal-gear-slipping-problem

                                  It seems most problems are due to misadjustment, either by users or clueless dealers. The SRAM clickbox is a little more intuitive to adjust for most people.

                                  As mentioned previously, I would certainly prefer a drum brake on any folding bike I purchased.



                                  > They may have reported the problems fixed, but that doesn't seem to be the case ..
                                  >
                                  > Post from disappointed user on Feb 20 2013:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Amanda,
                                  >
                                  > I have recieved and had changed the hubs. The problem is not resolved... I am very disappointed... The hubs was changed last Wednesday and I did my routine training ride and started to have the slipping issues after around 30km. I assumed that it was only tuning issues so I went back two days later to the distributor hoping that it will resolve my problem. Nope , Problem not solved... I went for my usual Wednesday training and the slipping got worst~!! Now it slips on almost all the speed on 3rd gear!!
                                  >
                                  > And, as of March 15, 2013 .. he's still trying to get warranty work .. this has been going on for months.
                                  >
                                  > Of note, Tern's top of the line Verge X-30 uses a SRAM Dual Drive, not S/A ..
                                  >




                                  --
                                  -Zack
                                • pj
                                  Odd, isn t it, since the SRF3 is an NIG and has no Indicator position where it can be made to slip . ... Very few of the components have the same p.n. as
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Mar 21, 2013
                                    Odd, isn't it, since the SRF3 is an NIG and has no Indicator position where it can be made to 'slip'.

                                    > looking at the schematics, the guts look functionally
                                    > identical to their other 3 speed hubs, I wonder what
                                    > the problem is.

                                    Very few of the components have the same p.n. as their counterparts in the SRF3, and the CSRF3 is a three-planet hub. The six planet pin pockets in the HSA830 Clutch appear to have steeply ramped leading edges. In addition, the CSRF3 has the curious HSA828 Clutch Sleeve and HSA829 Clutch Sleeve Spring.

                                    pj
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