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Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] ATF vs. Gear Oil

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  • David Chase
    Automatic transmissions DO use gears. Planetary gears, just like an IGH.
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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      Automatic transmissions DO use gears. Planetary gears, just like an IGH.

      http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Automatic%20Transmission.html

      Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.

      Synthetic oils are outstandingly good.

      ATF is also used in some geared transmissions, and I recall that it was sometimes recommended for use in old (1960s) Saab 95 and 96 transmissions (lubrication to the 3rd-gear needle bearings was iffy with 90W). Yes, I rebuilt a couple of those. There was a guy in town who would machine bronze bushings to replace the needle bearings; when the bronze wore too much, the gear would start to whir, but you could fix it before damage was done. Needle bearings, by the time you knew they were gone, they took the shaft and the gear with them.

      (Just did a web search to see if I could confirm my memory, failed, but stumbled across the most astonishing catalog of old Saab parts.)

      On 2013-03-08, at 3:11 PM, aarons_bicycle_repair <aaron@...> wrote:

      >
      > Why does everyone think Automatic Transmission Fluid is better than gear oil?
      >
      > Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another fan in fluid. Am I wrong here?
      >
      > It seems to me if you were going to use automotive lubricants, you would use something designed for cooler areas of the car like the differential. Bicycles do not generate much heat. Even a disc brake does not heat up the hub much. Drums sure do, though! One reason Sturmey-Archer uses a light grease in their 5 speed drum hubs.
      >
      > That is what we use. 90 weight gear oil. Or Phil Wood Tenacious oil. Both are designed for metal on metal gears and do not react with any plastics in my 30 years of experience.
      >
      > Cheers, Aaron
      >
      >
    • Paulos, Richard G
      ... fan driving another fan in fluid is exactly what the torque convertor does. The torque converter fits in the bell housing between the motor and
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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        >Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another fan in fluid. Am I wrong here?

        "fan driving another fan in fluid" is exactly what the torque convertor does. The torque converter fits in the bell housing between the motor and automatic transmission and allows your car to idle in gear when stopped at a red light. When the motor speeds up the fluid pushes the second fan harder and the car moves. At idle, it has just enough give to allow your car to keep from stalling. It is dependent on the fluid being just the right viscosity to work properly. There are many different types of atf, specified by the different auto manufacturers with a dozen characteristics. For cars you should always use what the manufacture states, not just any atf off the shelf. Newer cars have a lock out device that eliminates ALL the torque convertor slippage at high speed for improved highway mpg.

        Most of the atf characteristics are irrelevant for igh use due to the very low power, low speed, low heat and lack of hydraulic valves. I would think which brand of atf you use does not matter at all.

        rick
      • Benjamin Nead
        Interesting conversation, all . . . To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an IGH for any length of time on biodiesel? Biodiesel
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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          Interesting conversation, all . . .

          To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an
          IGH for any length of time on biodiesel?

          Biodiesel is transesterified vegetable oil . . . ie: all the glycerines
          present in raw vegetable oil are separated out via boiling down
          the plant oil with a mixtrure of methyl alcohol and lye. With few
          modifications to most automotive diesel engines, biodiesel provides a
          far more environmentally benign fuel alternative (in both the refining
          process and in the form of combustible byproducts) to convention
          petro-diesels. It also has amazingly good cleansing and lubricating
          properties. It basically smells like whatever plant oil it was refined
          from (corn, soy, etc.) . . .

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

          I keep a gallon-sized glass jug around the house. It is, worlds away,
          the best rust removal product I have ever used. I can't remember the
          last time I had to buy WD40 or similar rust-busting penetrating oils.

          On a completely different application, it is a perfectly safe and
          suitable product for putting luster back into non-finished hardwoods,
          such as ebony, teak or rosewood. All you need is a little dab on a clean
          cloth for that particular job. Biodiesel really is amazing stuff.

          Check around your town with various petroleum wholesalers or fleet fuel
          retailers to find it. When I get my gallon jug refilled every year or so
          from Arizona Petroleum here in Tucson, I make damn sure they siphon off
          the pure stuff (B99 or B100) from their large storage tank and NOT to
          get it out of the automotive pump nozzle, where it has almost certainly
          been mixed with petrodiesel blends (B5, B20, etc.)

          Biodiesel will not hurt plastics (at least ones found in modern
          automotive diesel fuel systems) but it WILL break down natural rubber
          fairly quickly. It will also strip certain paints off metal. I wouldn't
          think of ingesting biodiesel internally but, apparently, even this has
          been done by few brave souls with no ill affect or injury. A similarly
          small quantity of petrodiesel would have certainly put that same person
          in the emergency room next to a stomach pump or killed them outright.

          There are a least a couple of commercially-available bike-dedicated
          products that appears to be essentially either pure
          biodiesel or a mixture of biodiesel with synthetic lubricants.

          Pedro's Go! and ChainJ appears to fall in this latter category . . .

          http://www.pedros.com/go.htm

          http://www.pedros.com/chainj.htm

          Going by their web description, I would be willing to bet that Phil Wood
          Bio-Lube Oil is a pure biodiesel . . .

          http://www.philwood.com/products/gohc/oilngrease.php

          I ordered up a bottle of Skip To Renew's Raceday Bike Chain Lube in the
          mail . . .

          http://www.skiptorenew.com/recyclist/

          . . . which is one of two algae-based bio lubes they offer. Other than
          the greenish tint, it appears to
          be identical (viscosity . . . even the smell) to the corn-based B100 I
          buy locally by the gallon
          at around $4 a pop.

          The above is not meant to disparage the inflated price of small
          brand-name bottles of repackaged biodiesel
          that are offered on a retail level at the local bike shop. It's a great
          way to try out the product and see if it works
          well for a particular application. In some US cities or other locations
          abroad, B100 biodiesel might be unavailable from
          petroleum vendors (or they might not be able to let you siphon off the
          unadulterated stuff from a big storage tank, like I'm able to) and, for
          such small quantities used in bicycle applications, the little bottles
          are a fine introduction.

          I'm currently using B100 for a chain lube and it's working great. I'm
          just wondering if anyone here has yet
          to put some inside a geared hub and run it for any length of time.

          Ben in Tucson


          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



          David Chase wrote:
          > Automatic transmissions DO use gears. Planetary gears, just like an IGH.
          >
          > http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Automatic%20Transmission.html
          >
          > Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.
          >
          > Synthetic oils are outstandingly good.
          >
          > ATF is also used in some geared transmissions, and I recall that it was sometimes recommended for use in old (1960s) Saab 95 and 96 transmissions (lubrication to the 3rd-gear needle bearings was iffy with 90W). Yes, I rebuilt a couple of those. There was a guy in town who would machine bronze bushings to replace the needle bearings; when the bronze wore too much, the gear would start to whir, but you could fix it before damage was done. Needle bearings, by the time you knew they were gone, they took the shaft and the gear with them.
          >
          > (Just did a web search to see if I could confirm my memory, failed, but stumbled across the most astonishing catalog of old Saab parts.)
          >
          > On 2013-03-08, at 3:11 PM, aarons_bicycle_repair <aaron@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >> Why does everyone think Automatic Transmission Fluid is better than gear oil?
          >>
          >> Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another fan in fluid. Am I wrong here?
          >>
          >> It seems to me if you were going to use automotive lubricants, you would use something designed for cooler areas of the car like the differential. Bicycles do not generate much heat. Even a disc brake does not heat up the hub much. Drums sure do, though! One reason Sturmey-Archer uses a light grease in their 5 speed drum hubs.
          >>
          >> That is what we use. 90 weight gear oil. Or Phil Wood Tenacious oil. Both are designed for metal on metal gears and do not react with any plastics in my 30 years of experience.
          >>
          >> Cheers, Aaron
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • jim
          So how well does this stuff stay in/on something when it s used as a lube?  Phil s Tenacious and some gear additives I ve been using on bikes are relatively
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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            So how well does this stuff stay in/on something when it's used as a lube?  Phil's Tenacious and some gear additives I've been using on bikes are relatively good at sticking around... so to speak. The diesel I've used in my tractor is pretty thin stuff that might make a decent chain lube (or wash), but it doesn't seem like it would remain in hub for very long.
             
            Petro diesel in the West Palm Beach area is $4.17 right now, sounds like you're getting a deal on a much less aggravating and safer form. The rock stuff makes me wheeze just to whiff it.
             
            jim / so. fla.

            From: Benjamin Nead <mcnead@...>
            To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, March 9, 2013 12:43 AM
            Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Biodiesel (was "ATF vs. Gear Oil")

            Interesting conversation, all . . .

            To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an
            IGH for any length of time on biodiesel?

            Biodiesel is transesterified vegetable oil . . . ie: all the glycerines
            present in raw vegetable oil are separated out via boiling down
            the plant oil with a mixtrure of methyl alcohol and lye. With few
            modifications to most automotive diesel engines, biodiesel provides a
            far more environmentally benign fuel alternative (in both the refining
            process and in the form of combustible byproducts) to convention
            petro-diesels. It also has amazingly good cleansing and lubricating
            properties. It basically smells like whatever plant oil it was refined
            from (corn, soy, etc.) . . .

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

            I keep a gallon-sized glass jug around the house. It is, worlds away,
            the best rust removal product I have ever used. I can't remember the
            last time I had to buy WD40 or similar rust-busting penetrating oils.

            On a completely different application, it is a perfectly safe and
            suitable product for putting luster back into non-finished hardwoods,
            such as ebony, teak or rosewood. All you need is a little dab on a clean
            cloth for that particular job. Biodiesel really is amazing stuff.

            Check around your town with various petroleum wholesalers or fleet fuel
            retailers to find it. When I get my gallon jug refilled every year or so
            from Arizona Petroleum here in Tucson,  I make damn sure they siphon off
            the pure stuff (B99 or B100) from their large storage tank and NOT to
            get it out of the automotive pump  nozzle, where it has almost certainly
            been mixed with petrodiesel blends (B5, B20, etc.)

            Biodiesel will not hurt plastics (at least ones found in modern
            automotive diesel fuel systems) but it WILL break down natural rubber
            fairly quickly. It will also strip certain paints off metal. I wouldn't
            think of ingesting biodiesel internally but, apparently, even this has
            been done by few brave souls with no ill affect or injury. A similarly
            small quantity of petrodiesel would have certainly put that same person
            in the emergency room next to a stomach pump or killed them outright.

            There are a least a couple of commercially-available bike-dedicated
            products that appears to be essentially either pure
            biodiesel or a mixture of biodiesel with synthetic lubricants.

            Pedro's Go! and ChainJ appears to fall in this latter category . . .

            http://www.pedros.com/go.htm

            http://www.pedros.com/chainj.htm

            Going by their web description, I would be willing to bet that Phil Wood
            Bio-Lube Oil is a pure biodiesel . . .

            http://www.philwood.com/products/gohc/oilngrease.php

            I ordered up a bottle of Skip To Renew's Raceday Bike Chain Lube in the
            mail . . .

            http://www.skiptorenew.com/recyclist/

            . . . which is one of two algae-based bio lubes they offer. Other than
            the greenish tint, it appears to
            be identical (viscosity . . . even the smell) to the corn-based B100 I
            buy locally by the gallon
            at around $4 a pop.

            The above is not meant to disparage the inflated price of small
            brand-name bottles of repackaged biodiesel
            that are offered on a retail level at the local bike shop. It's a great
            way to try out the product and see if it works
            well for a particular application. In some US cities or other locations
            abroad, B100 biodiesel might be unavailable from
            petroleum vendors (or they might not be able to let you siphon off the
            unadulterated stuff from a big storage tank, like I'm able to) and, for
            such small quantities used in bicycle applications, the little bottles
            are a fine introduction.

            I'm currently using B100 for a chain lube and it's working great. I'm
            just wondering if anyone here has yet
            to put some inside a geared hub and run it for any length of time.

            Ben in Tucson


            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



            David Chase wrote:
            > Automatic transmissions DO use gears.  Planetary gears, just like an IGH.
            >
            > http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Automatic%20Transmission.html
            >
            > Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.
            >
            > Synthetic oils are outstandingly good.
            >
            > ATF is also used in some geared transmissions, and I recall that it was sometimes recommended for use in old (1960s) Saab 95 and 96 transmissions (lubrication to the 3rd-gear needle bearings was iffy with 90W).  Yes, I rebuilt a couple of those.  There was a guy in town who would machine
            bronze bushings to replace the needle bearings; when the bronze wore too much, the gear would start to whir, but you could fix it before damage was done.  Needle bearings, by the time you knew they were gone, they took the shaft and the gear with them.
            >
            > (Just did a web search to see if I could confirm my memory, failed, but stumbled across the most astonishing catalog of old Saab parts.)
            >
            > On 2013-03-08, at 3:11 PM, aarons_bicycle_repair <aaron@...> wrote:
            >

            >> Why does everyone think Automatic Transmission Fluid is better than gear oil?
            >>
            >> Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another fan in fluid. Am I wrong here?
            >>
            >> It seems to me if you were going to use automotive lubricants, you would use something designed
            for cooler areas of the car like the differential. Bicycles do not generate much heat. Even a disc brake does not heat up the hub much. Drums sure do, though! One reason Sturmey-Archer uses a light grease in their 5 speed drum hubs.
            >>
            >> That is what we use. 90 weight gear oil. Or Phil Wood Tenacious oil. Both are designed for metal on metal gears and do not react with any plastics in my 30 years of experience.
            >>
            >> Cheers, Aaron
            >>
            >>
            >>   
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >




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          • Benjamin Nead
            I should emphasize, Jim, that I would NOT recommend using any sort of petrodiesel as a lube on your bicycle components, as that stuff is corrosive and - most
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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              I should emphasize, Jim, that I would NOT recommend using any sort of
              petrodiesel as a lube on your bicycle components,
              as that stuff is corrosive and - most certainly - a terrible lubricant.

              As I mentioned earlier, sourcing biodiesel from the corner gas station
              pump might not be the best way to get it, as that pump most likely will
              also be dispensing standard petrodiesels or bio/petro blends. You might
              have to run several gallons through the hose and nozzle before the good
              B100 stuff comes out. Find a fleet retailer (industrial part of town)
              who will siphon it off from a large overhead storage tank. Maybe these
              folks can help you? . . .

              http://www.biodieselsfl.com/about.html

              Or . . . the easiest way to get a small sample in pure form for some
              casual experimenting on your bike is to buy it in the little bottles
              from the LBS, as I'm almost sure this is exactly what Phil Wood Bio Lube
              and the two different blends of Skip To Renew is. Biodiesel is fairly
              thin viscosity, but it's certainly thicker that conventional automotive
              fuels and less thick than either motor crankcase oil or straight
              vegetable oil. Maybe in the 5 to 10W range? Phil Wood's web site
              indicates that their Bio Lube is not as thick as their Tenacity oil.

              As far as using as a fuel in your tractor, I would be careful about
              switching back and forth between petro and biodiesel.
              Biodiesel will clean the rust and crud in the bottom of the tank left
              behind by petrodiesel and, in the short term, clog your fuel filter.
              After running a couple of tanks of the bio and swapping new fuels
              filters a couple of times, though, you should be fine. And, again,
              rubber fuel line parts will have to be swapped out for plastic ones.

              However, if you run a tank or two of petrodiesel after doing all of the
              above, you will probably have to do the fuel filter thing all over again
              when/if you go back to bio. Bottom line: stay with either petro or bio
              in your tractor. If you find a reliable source of biodiesel and you've
              done all of the above, go for it and don't ever switch back to the
              wheeze 'n whiff petro stuff. You'll LOVE the smell of biodiesel . . .
              kind of like salad dressing! :-)

              As far as what I paid for it, Tucson auto fuel prices are almost always
              on the low side nationally. I don't check daily but in September of
              2012, the last time I filled up my gallon glass jug with B100, prices on
              all fuels were probably lower than they are now. Because biodiesel is
              made in smaller quantities that petro, it's invariably going to be a
              little more expensive per gallon.

              Ben in Tucson

              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


              jim wrote:
              >
              > So how well does this stuff stay in/on something when it's used as a
              > lube? Phil's Tenacious and some gear additives I've been using on
              > bikes are relatively good at sticking around... so to speak. The
              > diesel I've used in my tractor is pretty thin stuff that might make a
              > decent chain lube (or wash), but it doesn't seem like it would remain
              > in hub for very long.
              >
              > Petro diesel in the West Palm Beach area is $4.17 right now, sounds
              > like you're getting a deal on a much less aggravating and safer form.
              > The rock stuff makes me wheeze just to whiff it.
              >
              > jim / so. fla.
              >

              -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > *From:* Benjamin Nead <mcnead@...>
              > *To:* Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
              > *Sent:* Saturday, March 9, 2013 12:43 AM
              > *Subject:* [Geared_hub_bikes] Biodiesel (was "ATF vs. Gear Oil")
              >
              > Interesting conversation, all . . .
              >
              > To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an
              > IGH for any length of time on biodiesel?
              >
              > Biodiesel is transesterified vegetable oil . . . ie: all the glycerines
              > present in raw vegetable oil are separated out via boiling down
              > the plant oil with a mixtrure of methyl alcohol and lye. With few
              > modifications to most automotive diesel engines, biodiesel provides a
              > far more environmentally benign fuel alternative (in both the refining
              > process and in the form of combustible byproducts) to convention
              > petro-diesels. It also has amazingly good cleansing and lubricating
              > properties. It basically smells like whatever plant oil it was refined
              > from (corn, soy, etc.) . . .
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
              >
              > I keep a gallon-sized glass jug around the house. It is, worlds away,
              > the best rust removal product I have ever used. I can't remember the
              > last time I had to buy WD40 or similar rust-busting penetrating oils.
              >
              > On a completely different application, it is a perfectly safe and
              > suitable product for putting luster back into non-finished hardwoods,
              > such as ebony, teak or rosewood. All you need is a little dab on a clean
              > cloth for that particular job. Biodiesel really is amazing stuff.
              >
              > Check around your town with various petroleum wholesalers or fleet fuel
              > retailers to find it. When I get my gallon jug refilled every year or so
              > from Arizona Petroleum here in Tucson, I make damn sure they siphon off
              > the pure stuff (B99 or B100) from their large storage tank and NOT to
              > get it out of the automotive pump nozzle, where it has almost certainly
              > been mixed with petrodiesel blends (B5, B20, etc.)
              >
              > Biodiesel will not hurt plastics (at least ones found in modern
              > automotive diesel fuel systems) but it WILL break down natural rubber
              > fairly quickly. It will also strip certain paints off metal. I wouldn't
              > think of ingesting biodiesel internally but, apparently, even this has
              > been done by few brave souls with no ill affect or injury. A similarly
              > small quantity of petrodiesel would have certainly put that same person
              > in the emergency room next to a stomach pump or killed them outright.
              >
              > There are a least a couple of commercially-available bike-dedicated
              > products that appears to be essentially either pure
              > biodiesel or a mixture of biodiesel with synthetic lubricants.
              >
              > Pedro's Go! and ChainJ appears to fall in this latter category . . .
              >
              > http://www.pedros.com/go.htm
              >
              > http://www.pedros.com/chainj.htm
              >
              > Going by their web description, I would be willing to bet that Phil Wood
              > Bio-Lube Oil is a pure biodiesel . . .
              >
              > http://www.philwood.com/products/gohc/oilngrease.php
              >
              > I ordered up a bottle of Skip To Renew's Raceday Bike Chain Lube in the
              > mail . . .
              >
              > http://www.skiptorenew.com/recyclist/
              >
              > . . . which is one of two algae-based bio lubes they offer. Other than
              > the greenish tint, it appears to
              > be identical (viscosity . . . even the smell) to the corn-based B100 I
              > buy locally by the gallon
              > at around $4 a pop.
              >
              > The above is not meant to disparage the inflated price of small
              > brand-name bottles of repackaged biodiesel
              > that are offered on a retail level at the local bike shop. It's a great
              > way to try out the product and see if it works
              > well for a particular application. In some US cities or other locations
              > abroad, B100 biodiesel might be unavailable from
              > petroleum vendors (or they might not be able to let you siphon off the
              > unadulterated stuff from a big storage tank, like I'm able to) and, for
              > such small quantities used in bicycle applications, the little bottles
              > are a fine introduction.
              >
              > I'm currently using B100 for a chain lube and it's working great. I'm
              > just wondering if anyone here has yet
              > to put some inside a geared hub and run it for any length of time.
              >
              > Ben in Tucson
              >
            • anthonyeberger
              WOW for once something on this list I know a little about. Good story but Ben you ve got a little of your information incorrect. I m a bit of a BioD nut
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 9, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                WOW for once something on this list I know a little about.

                Good story but Ben you've got a little of your information incorrect. I'm a bit of a BioD nut making it for a while and running a COOP here in Milwaukee for a bit.

                I do use Bio-Diesel as a rust remover and as a chain lube and can say it is a very good product. I'd suggest it to anyone but only in the summer unless you live in AZ or other warmer areas.

                BioD's cloud point it much higher than standard diesel. It starts to gel (at 100) at a much warmer temp that traditional dio-diesel. For this reason, I'd also not use it as a gear lube in any of my IGH's in any midwest unless those bikes are only used in warmer months.

                To clarify a few points below though. You don't boil this at all. It's a chemical reaction between the products. Very little heating is required and to much can cause bad things to happen (FIRE, and methyl fire is virtually invisible until it's too late).

                Any modern Diesel engine can run Bio-D in just about any percentage. Older IDI diesels require the rubber hoses in the fuel system to be replaced by something that can handle the alcohol. Viton lines are the preferred choice. But Modern diesel engines require zero modifications.

                That said, the fuel is also superior for the reason below but with one added bonus not mentioned. Bio-D cleans the deposits left behind that petro(Dino) diesel causes. It, in effect, greatly increases the longevity of a diesel motor!

                As a now former TDi owner, I frequently saw diesels with well over 300k on them running a mixture of B20 (20% bio to 80 Dino) I even had a buddy service a VW Bug with 669k on it when it rolled into his shop, it's still on the road and I'd suspect close to the 1M mark. Note that some people switch and then complain that their vehicle as problems requiring filter changes etc. This is NOT a problem with the bio but rather the fuel that was used prior. The bio-diesel is cleaning the contaminants of the previous fuel out of the lines.

                I'm in no way trying to beat this post up. This is great stuff. Just more trying to clarify. For several years I've help with bio-diesel presentations at MREA and the same myths come up time and time again. Just trying to make everyone be on the same page.

                Try it, I think You'll like it.

                Small company also is selling Bio lubes for bikes. http://www.ernestolube.com/

                I don't know much about them but met the owner once and it's a really straight shooter (and IGH guy).

                Have a great weekend. Let's talk about bikes some more. Cars suck, so I have them up for IGH bikes instead.

                Tony B.
                Milwaukee WI

                --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Nead <mcnead@...> wrote:
                >
                > Interesting conversation, all . . .
                >
                > To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an
                > IGH for any length of time on biodiesel?
                >
                > Biodiesel is transesterified vegetable oil . . . ie: all the glycerines
                > present in raw vegetable oil are separated out via boiling down
                > the plant oil with a mixtrure of methyl alcohol and lye. With few
                > modifications to most automotive diesel engines, biodiesel provides a
                > far more environmentally benign fuel alternative (in both the refining
                > process and in the form of combustible byproducts) to convention
                > petro-diesels. It also has amazingly good cleansing and lubricating
                > properties. It basically smells like whatever plant oil it was refined
                > from (corn, soy, etc.) . . .
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
                >
                > I keep a gallon-sized glass jug around the house. It is, worlds away,
                > the best rust removal product I have ever used. I can't remember the
                > last time I had to buy WD40 or similar rust-busting penetrating oils.
                >
                > On a completely different application, it is a perfectly safe and
                > suitable product for putting luster back into non-finished hardwoods,
                > such as ebony, teak or rosewood. All you need is a little dab on a clean
                > cloth for that particular job. Biodiesel really is amazing stuff.
                >
                > Check around your town with various petroleum wholesalers or fleet fuel
                > retailers to find it. When I get my gallon jug refilled every year or so
                > from Arizona Petroleum here in Tucson, I make damn sure they siphon off
                > the pure stuff (B99 or B100) from their large storage tank and NOT to
                > get it out of the automotive pump nozzle, where it has almost certainly
                > been mixed with petrodiesel blends (B5, B20, etc.)
                >
                > Biodiesel will not hurt plastics (at least ones found in modern
                > automotive diesel fuel systems) but it WILL break down natural rubber
                > fairly quickly. It will also strip certain paints off metal. I wouldn't
                > think of ingesting biodiesel internally but, apparently, even this has
                > been done by few brave souls with no ill affect or injury. A similarly
                > small quantity of petrodiesel would have certainly put that same person
                > in the emergency room next to a stomach pump or killed them outright.
                >
                > There are a least a couple of commercially-available bike-dedicated
                > products that appears to be essentially either pure
                > biodiesel or a mixture of biodiesel with synthetic lubricants.
                >
                > Pedro's Go! and ChainJ appears to fall in this latter category . . .
                >
                > http://www.pedros.com/go.htm
                >
                > http://www.pedros.com/chainj.htm
                >
                > Going by their web description, I would be willing to bet that Phil Wood
                > Bio-Lube Oil is a pure biodiesel . . .
                >
                > http://www.philwood.com/products/gohc/oilngrease.php
                >
                > I ordered up a bottle of Skip To Renew's Raceday Bike Chain Lube in the
                > mail . . .
                >
                > http://www.skiptorenew.com/recyclist/
                >
                > . . . which is one of two algae-based bio lubes they offer. Other than
                > the greenish tint, it appears to
                > be identical (viscosity . . . even the smell) to the corn-based B100 I
                > buy locally by the gallon
                > at around $4 a pop.
                >
                > The above is not meant to disparage the inflated price of small
                > brand-name bottles of repackaged biodiesel
                > that are offered on a retail level at the local bike shop. It's a great
                > way to try out the product and see if it works
                > well for a particular application. In some US cities or other locations
                > abroad, B100 biodiesel might be unavailable from
                > petroleum vendors (or they might not be able to let you siphon off the
                > unadulterated stuff from a big storage tank, like I'm able to) and, for
                > such small quantities used in bicycle applications, the little bottles
                > are a fine introduction.
                >
                > I'm currently using B100 for a chain lube and it's working great. I'm
                > just wondering if anyone here has yet
                > to put some inside a geared hub and run it for any length of time.
                >
                > Ben in Tucson
                >
                >
                >
              • pj
                ... At room/outdoor temperatures, 75W90 gear oil is lighter in weight than the old Sturmey-Archer branded Cycle oil.
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 9, 2013
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                  > Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.

                  At room/outdoor temperatures, 75W90 gear oil is lighter in weight than the old Sturmey-Archer branded Cycle oil.

                  <http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/>

                  Sturmey-Archer Cycle Oil was, we will remember, used 80+ years ago by cyclists who reported 30,000+ miles of immeasurable wear and trouble free service with their hubs.

                  <http://threespeedmania.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/kgrhqjhjdkfcu-vpucobqzmogtjjw60_3.jpg?w=590>

                  In the current era, the home tribologist trend for IGHs is to very light weight lubricants. Time will tell.

                  pj

                  PS: BTW & FWIF, none of my riding partners has ever mentioned the way my IGH smells. : )
                • Benjamin Nead
                  Thanks, Tony, for clarifying things. You obviously have a lot more hands-on experience with biodiesel (actually using it as an auto fuel) than I have. Yes,
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 9, 2013
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                    Thanks, Tony, for clarifying things. You obviously have a lot more
                    hands-on experience with biodiesel (actually using it as an auto fuel)
                    than I have. Yes, heating the ingredients to make it doesn't require
                    reaching the boiling point of methanol (BOOM!) I was going off memory
                    and not consulting the books on my shelf for specific temperatures, as I
                    should have. Anyone who wants to make up their own batches of biodiesel
                    should consult several of the many references first and compare notes
                    before any cooking commences.

                    I also couldn't remember the name of the particular plastic (Vitron)
                    that is commonly used in place of rubber when modifying an older vehicle
                    for biodiesel operation. Likewise, I didn't mean to imply that biodiesel
                    was the cause of fuel filter blockage but, rather, using it cleans up
                    tank crud left behind by previous extensive petrodiesel use and that
                    swapping clogged fuel filters is part of the "breaking in" process.

                    When talking about biodiesel to the uninitiated, the confusion factor
                    I've always witnessed is differentiating it with the running of a car
                    off of unmodified vegetable oil. When you say "biodiesel," a lot of
                    people still think about fuel preheat tanks and all the other related
                    tomfoolery associated with "grease cars."

                    What I have always found frustrating is that auto OEMs have a very
                    hostile relationship with biodiesel. You and I both know that B100 is
                    perfectly safe in any of today's diesel cars. The engines will last
                    longer and burn less pollution than if using even the cleanest of low
                    sulfur petrodiesels. But all of the manufacturers will void new vehicle
                    warranties if end users runs anything more than B5 through their
                    engines. Hence, you see a far greater use of pure biodiesel amongst
                    owners of older diesel cars, which is where all that Vitron part
                    retrofitting and initial fuel filter swapping will be occuring.

                    Regardless, you've answered my question in regards to using it inside an
                    IGH . . . cold weather gelling makes it less than ideal as a universal
                    solution for that particular application. B100 is fabulously good chain
                    lube (especially down here in warm Arizona) and I'm still going to use
                    it for that. But I would probably want to use something like Phil Wood
                    Tenacity Oil (which, I'm guessing, is basically a premium grade mineral
                    gear oil) for inside the hub.

                    Ben in Tucson

                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    anthonyeberger wrote:
                    >
                    > WOW for once something on this list I know a little about.
                    >
                    > Good story but Ben you've got a little of your information incorrect.
                    > I'm a bit of a BioD nut making it for a while and running a COOP here
                    > in Milwaukee for a bit.
                    >
                    > I do use Bio-Diesel as a rust remover and as a chain lube and can say
                    > it is a very good product. I'd suggest it to anyone but only in the
                    > summer unless you live in AZ or other warmer areas.
                    >
                    > BioD's cloud point it much higher than standard diesel. It starts to
                    > gel (at 100) at a much warmer temp that traditional dio-diesel. For
                    > this reason, I'd also not use it as a gear lube in any of my IGH's in
                    > any midwest unless those bikes are only used in warmer months.
                    >
                    > To clarify a few points below though. You don't boil this at all. It's
                    > a chemical reaction between the products. Very little heating is
                    > required and to much can cause bad things to happen (FIRE, and methyl
                    > fire is virtually invisible until it's too late).
                    >
                    > Any modern Diesel engine can run Bio-D in just about any percentage.
                    > Older IDI diesels require the rubber hoses in the fuel system to be
                    > replaced by something that can handle the alcohol. Viton lines are the
                    > preferred choice. But Modern diesel engines require zero modifications.
                    >
                    > That said, the fuel is also superior for the reason below but with one
                    > added bonus not mentioned. Bio-D cleans the deposits left behind that
                    > petro(Dino) diesel causes. It, in effect, greatly increases the
                    > longevity of a diesel motor!
                    >
                    > As a now former TDi owner, I frequently saw diesels with well over
                    > 300k on them running a mixture of B20 (20% bio to 80 Dino) I even had
                    > a buddy service a VW Bug with 669k on it when it rolled into his shop,
                    > it's still on the road and I'd suspect close to the 1M mark. Note that
                    > some people switch and then complain that their vehicle as problems
                    > requiring filter changes etc. This is NOT a problem with the bio but
                    > rather the fuel that was used prior. The bio-diesel is cleaning the
                    > contaminants of the previous fuel out of the lines.
                    >
                    > I'm in no way trying to beat this post up. This is great stuff. Just
                    > more trying to clarify. For several years I've help with bio-diesel
                    > presentations at MREA and the same myths come up time and time again.
                    > Just trying to make everyone be on the same page.
                    >
                    > Try it, I think You'll like it.
                    >
                    > Small company also is selling Bio lubes for bikes.
                    > http://www.ernestolube.com/
                    >
                    > I don't know much about them but met the owner once and it's a really
                    > straight shooter (and IGH guy).
                    >
                    > Have a great weekend. Let's talk about bikes some more. Cars suck, so
                    > I have them up for IGH bikes instead.
                    >
                    > Tony B.
                    > Milwaukee WI
                    >
                    > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>, Benjamin Nead
                    > <mcnead@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Interesting conversation, all . . .
                    > >
                    > > To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an
                    > > IGH for any length of time on biodiesel?
                    > >
                    > > Biodiesel is transesterified vegetable oil . . . ie: all the glycerines
                    > > present in raw vegetable oil are separated out via boiling down
                    > > the plant oil with a mixtrure of methyl alcohol and lye. With few
                    > > modifications to most automotive diesel engines, biodiesel provides a
                    > > far more environmentally benign fuel alternative (in both the refining
                    > > process and in the form of combustible byproducts) to convention
                    > > petro-diesels. It also has amazingly good cleansing and lubricating
                    > > properties. It basically smells like whatever plant oil it was refined
                    > > from (corn, soy, etc.) . . .
                    > >
                    > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
                    > >
                    > > I keep a gallon-sized glass jug around the house. It is, worlds away,
                    > > the best rust removal product I have ever used. I can't remember the
                    > > last time I had to buy WD40 or similar rust-busting penetrating oils.
                    > >
                    > > On a completely different application, it is a perfectly safe and
                    > > suitable product for putting luster back into non-finished hardwoods,
                    > > such as ebony, teak or rosewood. All you need is a little dab on a
                    > clean
                    > > cloth for that particular job. Biodiesel really is amazing stuff.
                    > >
                    > > Check around your town with various petroleum wholesalers or fleet fuel
                    > > retailers to find it. When I get my gallon jug refilled every year
                    > or so
                    > > from Arizona Petroleum here in Tucson, I make damn sure they siphon off
                    > > the pure stuff (B99 or B100) from their large storage tank and NOT to
                    > > get it out of the automotive pump nozzle, where it has almost certainly
                    > > been mixed with petrodiesel blends (B5, B20, etc.)
                    > >
                    > > Biodiesel will not hurt plastics (at least ones found in modern
                    > > automotive diesel fuel systems) but it WILL break down natural rubber
                    > > fairly quickly. It will also strip certain paints off metal. I wouldn't
                    > > think of ingesting biodiesel internally but, apparently, even this has
                    > > been done by few brave souls with no ill affect or injury. A similarly
                    > > small quantity of petrodiesel would have certainly put that same person
                    > > in the emergency room next to a stomach pump or killed them outright.
                    > >
                    > > There are a least a couple of commercially-available bike-dedicated
                    > > products that appears to be essentially either pure
                    > > biodiesel or a mixture of biodiesel with synthetic lubricants.
                    > >
                    > > Pedro's Go! and ChainJ appears to fall in this latter category . . .
                    > >
                    > > http://www.pedros.com/go.htm
                    > >
                    > > http://www.pedros.com/chainj.htm
                    > >
                    > > Going by their web description, I would be willing to bet that Phil
                    > Wood
                    > > Bio-Lube Oil is a pure biodiesel . . .
                    > >
                    > > http://www.philwood.com/products/gohc/oilngrease.php
                    > >
                    > > I ordered up a bottle of Skip To Renew's Raceday Bike Chain Lube in the
                    > > mail . . .
                    > >
                    > > http://www.skiptorenew.com/recyclist/
                    > >
                    > > . . . which is one of two algae-based bio lubes they offer. Other than
                    > > the greenish tint, it appears to
                    > > be identical (viscosity . . . even the smell) to the corn-based B100 I
                    > > buy locally by the gallon
                    > > at around $4 a pop.
                    > >
                    > > The above is not meant to disparage the inflated price of small
                    > > brand-name bottles of repackaged biodiesel
                    > > that are offered on a retail level at the local bike shop. It's a great
                    > > way to try out the product and see if it works
                    > > well for a particular application. In some US cities or other locations
                    > > abroad, B100 biodiesel might be unavailable from
                    > > petroleum vendors (or they might not be able to let you siphon off the
                    > > unadulterated stuff from a big storage tank, like I'm able to) and, for
                    > > such small quantities used in bicycle applications, the little bottles
                    > > are a fine introduction.
                    > >
                    > > I'm currently using B100 for a chain lube and it's working great. I'm
                    > > just wondering if anyone here has yet
                    > > to put some inside a geared hub and run it for any length of time.
                    > >
                    > > Ben in Tucson
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                  • Zack B
                    ... While I have had no problems with my ATF dipped nexus, I won t be using it again because it is *so* toxic and disgusting to work with. -- -Zack
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 9, 2013
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                      On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 12:52 PM, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                      Automatic transmissions DO use gears.  Planetary gears, just like an IGH.

                      http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Automatic%20Transmission.html

                      Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.

                      While I have had no problems with my ATF dipped nexus, I won't be using it again because it is *so* toxic and disgusting to work with.

                       
                      --
                      -Zack
                    • James Hunter
                      Thanks Zack, Could you tell us more about ATF toxicity and suggest any alternatives which would at least minimize the effect on the environment? James
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 10, 2013
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                        Thanks Zack,

                        Could you tell us more about ATF toxicity and suggest any alternatives which would at least minimize the effect on the environment?

                        James





                        From: Zack B <zoombomber@...>
                        To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, 10 March 2013, 0:08
                        Subject: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] ATF vs. Gear Oil

                         



                        On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 12:52 PM, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                        Automatic transmissions DO use gears.  Planetary gears, just like an IGH.

                        http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Automatic%20Transmission.html

                        Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.

                        While I have had no problems with my ATF dipped nexus, I won't be using it again because it is *so* toxic and disgusting to work with.

                         
                        --
                        -Zack


                      • Zack B
                        ... It smells really bad and working with it gave me a migraine. ... If you are riding a bike, you are so far ahead of the game in terms of the environment
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 10, 2013
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                          On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 1:38 AM, James Hunter <jhstonewalling@...> wrote:
                           

                          Thanks Zack,

                          Could you tell us more about ATF toxicity

                          It smells really bad and working with it gave me a migraine.

                           
                          and suggest any alternatives which would at least minimize the effect on the environment?

                          If you are riding a bike, you are so far ahead of the game in terms of the environment that I wouldn't worry about it beyond taking your used oil/atf/etc to the proper disposal sites



                          --
                          -Zack
                        • Benjamin Nead
                          Hi folks . . . My guess is that reading the manufacturer product safety sheets for various formulas of auto tranny fluid would also be migraine-inducing. It s
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 10, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi folks . . .

                            My guess is that reading the manufacturer product safety sheets for
                            various formulas of auto tranny fluid would also be migraine-inducing.
                            It's been observed by others here that the sort of relatively
                            unadulterated mineral oils used for a century in IGHs is probably more
                            than sufficient to keep them running smoothly.

                            But, yes, whatever you end up using in your hub, drain the old stuff
                            into a jar or metal can and take it to a commercial auto oil change
                            shop. If they balk or want to charge a lot of money to get rid of it for
                            you, most large US metro areas also have an EPA facility that will
                            gladly take it - and other toxic household products in need of safe
                            disposal - off your hands for free.

                            I threw out the suggestion of biodiesel, which is about as
                            environmentally benign a product that one can think of (smells nice,
                            too.) Beyond it's intended use as a replacement for automotive petroleum
                            diesel, it's a marvelous lubricant. But it has been observed, due to the
                            possibility of gelling in cold weather, probably not suitable
                            everywhere. Even so, dedicated bicycle bio chain lubes are commercially
                            available and, because of straight biodiesel's metal cleansing
                            properties, it's absolutely perfect to use for overhauling an old rusty
                            hub.

                            So, we're back to mineral oil and (see comments below) this might be one
                            of the best generally available options . . .

                            http://www.3inone.com/products/motor-oil/

                            Here in the IGH YahooGroups "Files" area is a PDF pertaining to hub
                            lubrication and here are some edits regarding oils . . .

                            "IGHs were traditionally lubricated with oils and have a history of
                            giving excellent service used that way. The Kyle/Berto drivetrain tests
                            suggested that oil lubrication was more efficient than grease
                            lubrication by a small amount.Sturmey-Archer no longer offers their
                            private branded Cycle Oil. 3-in-One's Motor Oil with the blue label (NOT
                            3-in-One's Multi-Purpose Oil with the black label) is probably our
                            closest modern equivalent to those little bottles of Cycle Oil of yore."

                            See above hyperlink for the 'good' blue label stuff.

                            But, very important to also note . . .

                            "3-in-One (original formulation, now marketed under the descriptor
                            Multipurpose Oil, with the black label) contains a vegetable based
                            component, citronella oil (ever notice the way 3-in-One smells?), which
                            will go rancid, break down and turn into very much a non-lubricant. This
                            residue would get cleaned off a chain in the next application, but when
                            enclosed in a small metal shell it has nowhere to go. Probably more
                            Sturmeys in the USA have been rendered inoperable by (black label)
                            3-inOne residue than for any other reason."

                            And this is the 'bad' black label stuff you DON'T want to use in your
                            hub . . .

                            http://www.3inone.com/products/multi-purpose/

                            Also . . .

                            "Some feel that Phil's Tenacious Oil is too heavy for IGH pawl springs,
                            especially in colder weather. Others have used it with no problems and
                            swear by it."

                            And, I wasn't previously aware of this factoid . . .

                            "Note: the viscosity of gear oils is measured differently than motor oil
                            . . ."

                            And, in closing . . .

                            "If the IGH uses oil lubrication, some recommend a soap-based grease
                            (Sta-lube blue marine grease or Park Poly-Lube or tan automotive grease
                            have all received votes) on the labyrinth seals/grease channels to
                            minimize weeping and water ingress. Others have suggested the use of
                            this grease on the hub's main axle bearings as well."


                            Ben in Tucson

                            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 1:38 AM, James Hunter
                            > <jhstonewalling@... <mailto:jhstonewalling@...>> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks Zack,
                            >
                            > Could you tell us more about ATF toxicity
                            >
                            >
                            > It smells really bad and working with it gave me a migraine.
                            >
                            >
                            > and suggest any alternatives which would at least minimize the
                            > effect on the environment?
                            >
                            >
                            > If you are riding a bike, you are so far ahead of the game in terms of
                            > the environment that I wouldn't worry about it beyond taking your used
                            > oil/atf/etc to the proper disposal sites
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > -Zack
                            >
                          • rons_hobbies
                            Ben, thanks for the info on 3-in-One motor oil, I hadn t run across it. From gummed up vintage sewing machines I am all too familiar with the citronella oil
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 11, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Ben, thanks for the info on 3-in-One motor oil, I hadn't run across it. From gummed up vintage sewing machines I am all too familiar with the citronella oil issues. Otherwise thimble oil is about as good as one can get with a pure petro oil.

                              Ron

                              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Nead <mcnead@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi folks . . .
                              <Snip>

                              >
                              > "3-in-One (original formulation, now marketed under the descriptor
                              > Multipurpose Oil, with the black label) contains a vegetable based
                              > component, citronella oil (ever notice the way 3-in-One smells?), which will go rancid, break down and turn into very much a non-lubricant. This residue would get cleaned off a chain in the next application, but when enclosed in a small metal shell it has nowhere to go. Probably more Sturmeys in the USA have been rendered inoperable by (black label) 3-inOne residue than for any other reason."
                              >
                              > And this is the 'bad' black label stuff you DON'T want to use in your
                              > hub . . .
                              >
                              > http://www.3inone.com/products/multi-purpose/
                              >Snip>
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