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Re: Alfine at 10,000 km on ATF

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  • rons_hobbies
    Oils are always an interesting topic. I studied aircraft maintenance in the 70 s and my instructor pointed out then the longer lives we were seeing even them
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 7, 2013
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      Oils are always an interesting topic. I studied aircraft maintenance in the 70's and my instructor pointed out then the longer lives we were seeing even them were due to improved lubricants as much as metallurgy. And a lot has changed in the 37 years since then. This site has some good facts on automotive oils:

      http://www.valvoline.com/car-care/motor-oil-myths/

      They state the belief synthetic will leak more is a myth. I can't speak from personal experience.

      Since "W" actually stands for "winter" meaning the viscosity of the oil at a given temperature, I doubt you would find any meaningful difference between ATF brands/manufacturer standard.

      A quote:

      The use of a lint free white rag to wipe the dipstick on automatic transmissions is advised so that the color of the fluid can be checked. Dark brown or black ATF can be an indicator of a transmission problem, vehicle abuse, or fluid that has far exceeded its useful life. Overused ATF often has reduced lubrication properties and abrasive friction materials (from clutches and brake bands) suspended in it; failure to replace such fluid will accelerate transmission wear and could eventually ruin an otherwise healthy transmission.[citation needed] However color alone is not a completely reliable indication of the service life of an ATF as most ATF products will darken with use. The manufacturer's recommended service interval is a more reliable measure of ATF life. In the absence of service or repair records, fluid color is a common means of gauging ATF service life.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission_fluid

      (Note, my '98 Ford Explorer's owners manual says no need to change, but it hasn't been red for may years. Time for maintenance).

      I suspect any ridding is far below the lubrication requirements in an automobile given the operating temperatures involved. And synthetics are derived from rocks. <grin>

      Ron

      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > On 2013-03-06, at 3:42 AM, Anwar Rahim <anwar.rhm@...> wrote:
      > > Do you use a specific ATF? When I disassembled my Sram dual drive (some time ago) I read about ATFs having different viscosities

      <Snip>a
      >
      > You do have to worry a little bit about
      > (a) voiding manufacturer warranties (if any exist) and
      > (b) possible incompatibilities with some plastics.
      >
      > I think (b) is unlikely. I've seen it with brake fluids, and you might get it with very old, strange plastics, but it would be silly today to use either a plastic or an oil with a risk of such an incompatibility.
      >
      > David
      >
    • aarons_bicycle_repair
      Why does everyone think Automatic Transmission Fluid is better than gear oil? Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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        Why does everyone think Automatic Transmission Fluid is better than gear oil?

        Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another fan in fluid. Am I wrong here?

        It seems to me if you were going to use automotive lubricants, you would use something designed for cooler areas of the car like the differential. Bicycles do not generate much heat. Even a disc brake does not heat up the hub much. Drums sure do, though! One reason Sturmey-Archer uses a light grease in their 5 speed drum hubs.

        That is what we use. 90 weight gear oil. Or Phil Wood Tenacious oil. Both are designed for metal on metal gears and do not react with any plastics in my 30 years of experience.

        Cheers, Aaron
      • David Chase
        Automatic transmissions DO use gears. Planetary gears, just like an IGH.
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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          Automatic transmissions DO use gears. Planetary gears, just like an IGH.

          http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Automatic%20Transmission.html

          Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.

          Synthetic oils are outstandingly good.

          ATF is also used in some geared transmissions, and I recall that it was sometimes recommended for use in old (1960s) Saab 95 and 96 transmissions (lubrication to the 3rd-gear needle bearings was iffy with 90W). Yes, I rebuilt a couple of those. There was a guy in town who would machine bronze bushings to replace the needle bearings; when the bronze wore too much, the gear would start to whir, but you could fix it before damage was done. Needle bearings, by the time you knew they were gone, they took the shaft and the gear with them.

          (Just did a web search to see if I could confirm my memory, failed, but stumbled across the most astonishing catalog of old Saab parts.)

          On 2013-03-08, at 3:11 PM, aarons_bicycle_repair <aaron@...> wrote:

          >
          > Why does everyone think Automatic Transmission Fluid is better than gear oil?
          >
          > Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another fan in fluid. Am I wrong here?
          >
          > It seems to me if you were going to use automotive lubricants, you would use something designed for cooler areas of the car like the differential. Bicycles do not generate much heat. Even a disc brake does not heat up the hub much. Drums sure do, though! One reason Sturmey-Archer uses a light grease in their 5 speed drum hubs.
          >
          > That is what we use. 90 weight gear oil. Or Phil Wood Tenacious oil. Both are designed for metal on metal gears and do not react with any plastics in my 30 years of experience.
          >
          > Cheers, Aaron
          >
          >
        • Paulos, Richard G
          ... fan driving another fan in fluid is exactly what the torque convertor does. The torque converter fits in the bell housing between the motor and
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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            >Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another fan in fluid. Am I wrong here?

            "fan driving another fan in fluid" is exactly what the torque convertor does. The torque converter fits in the bell housing between the motor and automatic transmission and allows your car to idle in gear when stopped at a red light. When the motor speeds up the fluid pushes the second fan harder and the car moves. At idle, it has just enough give to allow your car to keep from stalling. It is dependent on the fluid being just the right viscosity to work properly. There are many different types of atf, specified by the different auto manufacturers with a dozen characteristics. For cars you should always use what the manufacture states, not just any atf off the shelf. Newer cars have a lock out device that eliminates ALL the torque convertor slippage at high speed for improved highway mpg.

            Most of the atf characteristics are irrelevant for igh use due to the very low power, low speed, low heat and lack of hydraulic valves. I would think which brand of atf you use does not matter at all.

            rick
          • Benjamin Nead
            Interesting conversation, all . . . To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an IGH for any length of time on biodiesel? Biodiesel
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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              Interesting conversation, all . . .

              To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an
              IGH for any length of time on biodiesel?

              Biodiesel is transesterified vegetable oil . . . ie: all the glycerines
              present in raw vegetable oil are separated out via boiling down
              the plant oil with a mixtrure of methyl alcohol and lye. With few
              modifications to most automotive diesel engines, biodiesel provides a
              far more environmentally benign fuel alternative (in both the refining
              process and in the form of combustible byproducts) to convention
              petro-diesels. It also has amazingly good cleansing and lubricating
              properties. It basically smells like whatever plant oil it was refined
              from (corn, soy, etc.) . . .

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

              I keep a gallon-sized glass jug around the house. It is, worlds away,
              the best rust removal product I have ever used. I can't remember the
              last time I had to buy WD40 or similar rust-busting penetrating oils.

              On a completely different application, it is a perfectly safe and
              suitable product for putting luster back into non-finished hardwoods,
              such as ebony, teak or rosewood. All you need is a little dab on a clean
              cloth for that particular job. Biodiesel really is amazing stuff.

              Check around your town with various petroleum wholesalers or fleet fuel
              retailers to find it. When I get my gallon jug refilled every year or so
              from Arizona Petroleum here in Tucson, I make damn sure they siphon off
              the pure stuff (B99 or B100) from their large storage tank and NOT to
              get it out of the automotive pump nozzle, where it has almost certainly
              been mixed with petrodiesel blends (B5, B20, etc.)

              Biodiesel will not hurt plastics (at least ones found in modern
              automotive diesel fuel systems) but it WILL break down natural rubber
              fairly quickly. It will also strip certain paints off metal. I wouldn't
              think of ingesting biodiesel internally but, apparently, even this has
              been done by few brave souls with no ill affect or injury. A similarly
              small quantity of petrodiesel would have certainly put that same person
              in the emergency room next to a stomach pump or killed them outright.

              There are a least a couple of commercially-available bike-dedicated
              products that appears to be essentially either pure
              biodiesel or a mixture of biodiesel with synthetic lubricants.

              Pedro's Go! and ChainJ appears to fall in this latter category . . .

              http://www.pedros.com/go.htm

              http://www.pedros.com/chainj.htm

              Going by their web description, I would be willing to bet that Phil Wood
              Bio-Lube Oil is a pure biodiesel . . .

              http://www.philwood.com/products/gohc/oilngrease.php

              I ordered up a bottle of Skip To Renew's Raceday Bike Chain Lube in the
              mail . . .

              http://www.skiptorenew.com/recyclist/

              . . . which is one of two algae-based bio lubes they offer. Other than
              the greenish tint, it appears to
              be identical (viscosity . . . even the smell) to the corn-based B100 I
              buy locally by the gallon
              at around $4 a pop.

              The above is not meant to disparage the inflated price of small
              brand-name bottles of repackaged biodiesel
              that are offered on a retail level at the local bike shop. It's a great
              way to try out the product and see if it works
              well for a particular application. In some US cities or other locations
              abroad, B100 biodiesel might be unavailable from
              petroleum vendors (or they might not be able to let you siphon off the
              unadulterated stuff from a big storage tank, like I'm able to) and, for
              such small quantities used in bicycle applications, the little bottles
              are a fine introduction.

              I'm currently using B100 for a chain lube and it's working great. I'm
              just wondering if anyone here has yet
              to put some inside a geared hub and run it for any length of time.

              Ben in Tucson


              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



              David Chase wrote:
              > Automatic transmissions DO use gears. Planetary gears, just like an IGH.
              >
              > http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Automatic%20Transmission.html
              >
              > Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.
              >
              > Synthetic oils are outstandingly good.
              >
              > ATF is also used in some geared transmissions, and I recall that it was sometimes recommended for use in old (1960s) Saab 95 and 96 transmissions (lubrication to the 3rd-gear needle bearings was iffy with 90W). Yes, I rebuilt a couple of those. There was a guy in town who would machine bronze bushings to replace the needle bearings; when the bronze wore too much, the gear would start to whir, but you could fix it before damage was done. Needle bearings, by the time you knew they were gone, they took the shaft and the gear with them.
              >
              > (Just did a web search to see if I could confirm my memory, failed, but stumbled across the most astonishing catalog of old Saab parts.)
              >
              > On 2013-03-08, at 3:11 PM, aarons_bicycle_repair <aaron@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >> Why does everyone think Automatic Transmission Fluid is better than gear oil?
              >>
              >> Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another fan in fluid. Am I wrong here?
              >>
              >> It seems to me if you were going to use automotive lubricants, you would use something designed for cooler areas of the car like the differential. Bicycles do not generate much heat. Even a disc brake does not heat up the hub much. Drums sure do, though! One reason Sturmey-Archer uses a light grease in their 5 speed drum hubs.
              >>
              >> That is what we use. 90 weight gear oil. Or Phil Wood Tenacious oil. Both are designed for metal on metal gears and do not react with any plastics in my 30 years of experience.
              >>
              >> Cheers, Aaron
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • jim
              So how well does this stuff stay in/on something when it s used as a lube?  Phil s Tenacious and some gear additives I ve been using on bikes are relatively
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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                So how well does this stuff stay in/on something when it's used as a lube?  Phil's Tenacious and some gear additives I've been using on bikes are relatively good at sticking around... so to speak. The diesel I've used in my tractor is pretty thin stuff that might make a decent chain lube (or wash), but it doesn't seem like it would remain in hub for very long.
                 
                Petro diesel in the West Palm Beach area is $4.17 right now, sounds like you're getting a deal on a much less aggravating and safer form. The rock stuff makes me wheeze just to whiff it.
                 
                jim / so. fla.

                From: Benjamin Nead <mcnead@...>
                To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, March 9, 2013 12:43 AM
                Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Biodiesel (was "ATF vs. Gear Oil")

                Interesting conversation, all . . .

                To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an
                IGH for any length of time on biodiesel?

                Biodiesel is transesterified vegetable oil . . . ie: all the glycerines
                present in raw vegetable oil are separated out via boiling down
                the plant oil with a mixtrure of methyl alcohol and lye. With few
                modifications to most automotive diesel engines, biodiesel provides a
                far more environmentally benign fuel alternative (in both the refining
                process and in the form of combustible byproducts) to convention
                petro-diesels. It also has amazingly good cleansing and lubricating
                properties. It basically smells like whatever plant oil it was refined
                from (corn, soy, etc.) . . .

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

                I keep a gallon-sized glass jug around the house. It is, worlds away,
                the best rust removal product I have ever used. I can't remember the
                last time I had to buy WD40 or similar rust-busting penetrating oils.

                On a completely different application, it is a perfectly safe and
                suitable product for putting luster back into non-finished hardwoods,
                such as ebony, teak or rosewood. All you need is a little dab on a clean
                cloth for that particular job. Biodiesel really is amazing stuff.

                Check around your town with various petroleum wholesalers or fleet fuel
                retailers to find it. When I get my gallon jug refilled every year or so
                from Arizona Petroleum here in Tucson,  I make damn sure they siphon off
                the pure stuff (B99 or B100) from their large storage tank and NOT to
                get it out of the automotive pump  nozzle, where it has almost certainly
                been mixed with petrodiesel blends (B5, B20, etc.)

                Biodiesel will not hurt plastics (at least ones found in modern
                automotive diesel fuel systems) but it WILL break down natural rubber
                fairly quickly. It will also strip certain paints off metal. I wouldn't
                think of ingesting biodiesel internally but, apparently, even this has
                been done by few brave souls with no ill affect or injury. A similarly
                small quantity of petrodiesel would have certainly put that same person
                in the emergency room next to a stomach pump or killed them outright.

                There are a least a couple of commercially-available bike-dedicated
                products that appears to be essentially either pure
                biodiesel or a mixture of biodiesel with synthetic lubricants.

                Pedro's Go! and ChainJ appears to fall in this latter category . . .

                http://www.pedros.com/go.htm

                http://www.pedros.com/chainj.htm

                Going by their web description, I would be willing to bet that Phil Wood
                Bio-Lube Oil is a pure biodiesel . . .

                http://www.philwood.com/products/gohc/oilngrease.php

                I ordered up a bottle of Skip To Renew's Raceday Bike Chain Lube in the
                mail . . .

                http://www.skiptorenew.com/recyclist/

                . . . which is one of two algae-based bio lubes they offer. Other than
                the greenish tint, it appears to
                be identical (viscosity . . . even the smell) to the corn-based B100 I
                buy locally by the gallon
                at around $4 a pop.

                The above is not meant to disparage the inflated price of small
                brand-name bottles of repackaged biodiesel
                that are offered on a retail level at the local bike shop. It's a great
                way to try out the product and see if it works
                well for a particular application. In some US cities or other locations
                abroad, B100 biodiesel might be unavailable from
                petroleum vendors (or they might not be able to let you siphon off the
                unadulterated stuff from a big storage tank, like I'm able to) and, for
                such small quantities used in bicycle applications, the little bottles
                are a fine introduction.

                I'm currently using B100 for a chain lube and it's working great. I'm
                just wondering if anyone here has yet
                to put some inside a geared hub and run it for any length of time.

                Ben in Tucson


                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                David Chase wrote:
                > Automatic transmissions DO use gears.  Planetary gears, just like an IGH.
                >
                > http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Automatic%20Transmission.html
                >
                > Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.
                >
                > Synthetic oils are outstandingly good.
                >
                > ATF is also used in some geared transmissions, and I recall that it was sometimes recommended for use in old (1960s) Saab 95 and 96 transmissions (lubrication to the 3rd-gear needle bearings was iffy with 90W).  Yes, I rebuilt a couple of those.  There was a guy in town who would machine
                bronze bushings to replace the needle bearings; when the bronze wore too much, the gear would start to whir, but you could fix it before damage was done.  Needle bearings, by the time you knew they were gone, they took the shaft and the gear with them.
                >
                > (Just did a web search to see if I could confirm my memory, failed, but stumbled across the most astonishing catalog of old Saab parts.)
                >
                > On 2013-03-08, at 3:11 PM, aarons_bicycle_repair <aaron@...> wrote:
                >

                >> Why does everyone think Automatic Transmission Fluid is better than gear oil?
                >>
                >> Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another fan in fluid. Am I wrong here?
                >>
                >> It seems to me if you were going to use automotive lubricants, you would use something designed
                for cooler areas of the car like the differential. Bicycles do not generate much heat. Even a disc brake does not heat up the hub much. Drums sure do, though! One reason Sturmey-Archer uses a light grease in their 5 speed drum hubs.
                >>
                >> That is what we use. 90 weight gear oil. Or Phil Wood Tenacious oil. Both are designed for metal on metal gears and do not react with any plastics in my 30 years of experience.
                >>
                >> Cheers, Aaron
                >>
                >>
                >>   
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >




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              • Benjamin Nead
                I should emphasize, Jim, that I would NOT recommend using any sort of petrodiesel as a lube on your bicycle components, as that stuff is corrosive and - most
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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                  I should emphasize, Jim, that I would NOT recommend using any sort of
                  petrodiesel as a lube on your bicycle components,
                  as that stuff is corrosive and - most certainly - a terrible lubricant.

                  As I mentioned earlier, sourcing biodiesel from the corner gas station
                  pump might not be the best way to get it, as that pump most likely will
                  also be dispensing standard petrodiesels or bio/petro blends. You might
                  have to run several gallons through the hose and nozzle before the good
                  B100 stuff comes out. Find a fleet retailer (industrial part of town)
                  who will siphon it off from a large overhead storage tank. Maybe these
                  folks can help you? . . .

                  http://www.biodieselsfl.com/about.html

                  Or . . . the easiest way to get a small sample in pure form for some
                  casual experimenting on your bike is to buy it in the little bottles
                  from the LBS, as I'm almost sure this is exactly what Phil Wood Bio Lube
                  and the two different blends of Skip To Renew is. Biodiesel is fairly
                  thin viscosity, but it's certainly thicker that conventional automotive
                  fuels and less thick than either motor crankcase oil or straight
                  vegetable oil. Maybe in the 5 to 10W range? Phil Wood's web site
                  indicates that their Bio Lube is not as thick as their Tenacity oil.

                  As far as using as a fuel in your tractor, I would be careful about
                  switching back and forth between petro and biodiesel.
                  Biodiesel will clean the rust and crud in the bottom of the tank left
                  behind by petrodiesel and, in the short term, clog your fuel filter.
                  After running a couple of tanks of the bio and swapping new fuels
                  filters a couple of times, though, you should be fine. And, again,
                  rubber fuel line parts will have to be swapped out for plastic ones.

                  However, if you run a tank or two of petrodiesel after doing all of the
                  above, you will probably have to do the fuel filter thing all over again
                  when/if you go back to bio. Bottom line: stay with either petro or bio
                  in your tractor. If you find a reliable source of biodiesel and you've
                  done all of the above, go for it and don't ever switch back to the
                  wheeze 'n whiff petro stuff. You'll LOVE the smell of biodiesel . . .
                  kind of like salad dressing! :-)

                  As far as what I paid for it, Tucson auto fuel prices are almost always
                  on the low side nationally. I don't check daily but in September of
                  2012, the last time I filled up my gallon glass jug with B100, prices on
                  all fuels were probably lower than they are now. Because biodiesel is
                  made in smaller quantities that petro, it's invariably going to be a
                  little more expensive per gallon.

                  Ben in Tucson

                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                  jim wrote:
                  >
                  > So how well does this stuff stay in/on something when it's used as a
                  > lube? Phil's Tenacious and some gear additives I've been using on
                  > bikes are relatively good at sticking around... so to speak. The
                  > diesel I've used in my tractor is pretty thin stuff that might make a
                  > decent chain lube (or wash), but it doesn't seem like it would remain
                  > in hub for very long.
                  >
                  > Petro diesel in the West Palm Beach area is $4.17 right now, sounds
                  > like you're getting a deal on a much less aggravating and safer form.
                  > The rock stuff makes me wheeze just to whiff it.
                  >
                  > jim / so. fla.
                  >

                  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > *From:* Benjamin Nead <mcnead@...>
                  > *To:* Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                  > *Sent:* Saturday, March 9, 2013 12:43 AM
                  > *Subject:* [Geared_hub_bikes] Biodiesel (was "ATF vs. Gear Oil")
                  >
                  > Interesting conversation, all . . .
                  >
                  > To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an
                  > IGH for any length of time on biodiesel?
                  >
                  > Biodiesel is transesterified vegetable oil . . . ie: all the glycerines
                  > present in raw vegetable oil are separated out via boiling down
                  > the plant oil with a mixtrure of methyl alcohol and lye. With few
                  > modifications to most automotive diesel engines, biodiesel provides a
                  > far more environmentally benign fuel alternative (in both the refining
                  > process and in the form of combustible byproducts) to convention
                  > petro-diesels. It also has amazingly good cleansing and lubricating
                  > properties. It basically smells like whatever plant oil it was refined
                  > from (corn, soy, etc.) . . .
                  >
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
                  >
                  > I keep a gallon-sized glass jug around the house. It is, worlds away,
                  > the best rust removal product I have ever used. I can't remember the
                  > last time I had to buy WD40 or similar rust-busting penetrating oils.
                  >
                  > On a completely different application, it is a perfectly safe and
                  > suitable product for putting luster back into non-finished hardwoods,
                  > such as ebony, teak or rosewood. All you need is a little dab on a clean
                  > cloth for that particular job. Biodiesel really is amazing stuff.
                  >
                  > Check around your town with various petroleum wholesalers or fleet fuel
                  > retailers to find it. When I get my gallon jug refilled every year or so
                  > from Arizona Petroleum here in Tucson, I make damn sure they siphon off
                  > the pure stuff (B99 or B100) from their large storage tank and NOT to
                  > get it out of the automotive pump nozzle, where it has almost certainly
                  > been mixed with petrodiesel blends (B5, B20, etc.)
                  >
                  > Biodiesel will not hurt plastics (at least ones found in modern
                  > automotive diesel fuel systems) but it WILL break down natural rubber
                  > fairly quickly. It will also strip certain paints off metal. I wouldn't
                  > think of ingesting biodiesel internally but, apparently, even this has
                  > been done by few brave souls with no ill affect or injury. A similarly
                  > small quantity of petrodiesel would have certainly put that same person
                  > in the emergency room next to a stomach pump or killed them outright.
                  >
                  > There are a least a couple of commercially-available bike-dedicated
                  > products that appears to be essentially either pure
                  > biodiesel or a mixture of biodiesel with synthetic lubricants.
                  >
                  > Pedro's Go! and ChainJ appears to fall in this latter category . . .
                  >
                  > http://www.pedros.com/go.htm
                  >
                  > http://www.pedros.com/chainj.htm
                  >
                  > Going by their web description, I would be willing to bet that Phil Wood
                  > Bio-Lube Oil is a pure biodiesel . . .
                  >
                  > http://www.philwood.com/products/gohc/oilngrease.php
                  >
                  > I ordered up a bottle of Skip To Renew's Raceday Bike Chain Lube in the
                  > mail . . .
                  >
                  > http://www.skiptorenew.com/recyclist/
                  >
                  > . . . which is one of two algae-based bio lubes they offer. Other than
                  > the greenish tint, it appears to
                  > be identical (viscosity . . . even the smell) to the corn-based B100 I
                  > buy locally by the gallon
                  > at around $4 a pop.
                  >
                  > The above is not meant to disparage the inflated price of small
                  > brand-name bottles of repackaged biodiesel
                  > that are offered on a retail level at the local bike shop. It's a great
                  > way to try out the product and see if it works
                  > well for a particular application. In some US cities or other locations
                  > abroad, B100 biodiesel might be unavailable from
                  > petroleum vendors (or they might not be able to let you siphon off the
                  > unadulterated stuff from a big storage tank, like I'm able to) and, for
                  > such small quantities used in bicycle applications, the little bottles
                  > are a fine introduction.
                  >
                  > I'm currently using B100 for a chain lube and it's working great. I'm
                  > just wondering if anyone here has yet
                  > to put some inside a geared hub and run it for any length of time.
                  >
                  > Ben in Tucson
                  >
                • anthonyeberger
                  WOW for once something on this list I know a little about. Good story but Ben you ve got a little of your information incorrect. I m a bit of a BioD nut
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 9, 2013
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                    WOW for once something on this list I know a little about.

                    Good story but Ben you've got a little of your information incorrect. I'm a bit of a BioD nut making it for a while and running a COOP here in Milwaukee for a bit.

                    I do use Bio-Diesel as a rust remover and as a chain lube and can say it is a very good product. I'd suggest it to anyone but only in the summer unless you live in AZ or other warmer areas.

                    BioD's cloud point it much higher than standard diesel. It starts to gel (at 100) at a much warmer temp that traditional dio-diesel. For this reason, I'd also not use it as a gear lube in any of my IGH's in any midwest unless those bikes are only used in warmer months.

                    To clarify a few points below though. You don't boil this at all. It's a chemical reaction between the products. Very little heating is required and to much can cause bad things to happen (FIRE, and methyl fire is virtually invisible until it's too late).

                    Any modern Diesel engine can run Bio-D in just about any percentage. Older IDI diesels require the rubber hoses in the fuel system to be replaced by something that can handle the alcohol. Viton lines are the preferred choice. But Modern diesel engines require zero modifications.

                    That said, the fuel is also superior for the reason below but with one added bonus not mentioned. Bio-D cleans the deposits left behind that petro(Dino) diesel causes. It, in effect, greatly increases the longevity of a diesel motor!

                    As a now former TDi owner, I frequently saw diesels with well over 300k on them running a mixture of B20 (20% bio to 80 Dino) I even had a buddy service a VW Bug with 669k on it when it rolled into his shop, it's still on the road and I'd suspect close to the 1M mark. Note that some people switch and then complain that their vehicle as problems requiring filter changes etc. This is NOT a problem with the bio but rather the fuel that was used prior. The bio-diesel is cleaning the contaminants of the previous fuel out of the lines.

                    I'm in no way trying to beat this post up. This is great stuff. Just more trying to clarify. For several years I've help with bio-diesel presentations at MREA and the same myths come up time and time again. Just trying to make everyone be on the same page.

                    Try it, I think You'll like it.

                    Small company also is selling Bio lubes for bikes. http://www.ernestolube.com/

                    I don't know much about them but met the owner once and it's a really straight shooter (and IGH guy).

                    Have a great weekend. Let's talk about bikes some more. Cars suck, so I have them up for IGH bikes instead.

                    Tony B.
                    Milwaukee WI

                    --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Nead <mcnead@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Interesting conversation, all . . .
                    >
                    > To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an
                    > IGH for any length of time on biodiesel?
                    >
                    > Biodiesel is transesterified vegetable oil . . . ie: all the glycerines
                    > present in raw vegetable oil are separated out via boiling down
                    > the plant oil with a mixtrure of methyl alcohol and lye. With few
                    > modifications to most automotive diesel engines, biodiesel provides a
                    > far more environmentally benign fuel alternative (in both the refining
                    > process and in the form of combustible byproducts) to convention
                    > petro-diesels. It also has amazingly good cleansing and lubricating
                    > properties. It basically smells like whatever plant oil it was refined
                    > from (corn, soy, etc.) . . .
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
                    >
                    > I keep a gallon-sized glass jug around the house. It is, worlds away,
                    > the best rust removal product I have ever used. I can't remember the
                    > last time I had to buy WD40 or similar rust-busting penetrating oils.
                    >
                    > On a completely different application, it is a perfectly safe and
                    > suitable product for putting luster back into non-finished hardwoods,
                    > such as ebony, teak or rosewood. All you need is a little dab on a clean
                    > cloth for that particular job. Biodiesel really is amazing stuff.
                    >
                    > Check around your town with various petroleum wholesalers or fleet fuel
                    > retailers to find it. When I get my gallon jug refilled every year or so
                    > from Arizona Petroleum here in Tucson, I make damn sure they siphon off
                    > the pure stuff (B99 or B100) from their large storage tank and NOT to
                    > get it out of the automotive pump nozzle, where it has almost certainly
                    > been mixed with petrodiesel blends (B5, B20, etc.)
                    >
                    > Biodiesel will not hurt plastics (at least ones found in modern
                    > automotive diesel fuel systems) but it WILL break down natural rubber
                    > fairly quickly. It will also strip certain paints off metal. I wouldn't
                    > think of ingesting biodiesel internally but, apparently, even this has
                    > been done by few brave souls with no ill affect or injury. A similarly
                    > small quantity of petrodiesel would have certainly put that same person
                    > in the emergency room next to a stomach pump or killed them outright.
                    >
                    > There are a least a couple of commercially-available bike-dedicated
                    > products that appears to be essentially either pure
                    > biodiesel or a mixture of biodiesel with synthetic lubricants.
                    >
                    > Pedro's Go! and ChainJ appears to fall in this latter category . . .
                    >
                    > http://www.pedros.com/go.htm
                    >
                    > http://www.pedros.com/chainj.htm
                    >
                    > Going by their web description, I would be willing to bet that Phil Wood
                    > Bio-Lube Oil is a pure biodiesel . . .
                    >
                    > http://www.philwood.com/products/gohc/oilngrease.php
                    >
                    > I ordered up a bottle of Skip To Renew's Raceday Bike Chain Lube in the
                    > mail . . .
                    >
                    > http://www.skiptorenew.com/recyclist/
                    >
                    > . . . which is one of two algae-based bio lubes they offer. Other than
                    > the greenish tint, it appears to
                    > be identical (viscosity . . . even the smell) to the corn-based B100 I
                    > buy locally by the gallon
                    > at around $4 a pop.
                    >
                    > The above is not meant to disparage the inflated price of small
                    > brand-name bottles of repackaged biodiesel
                    > that are offered on a retail level at the local bike shop. It's a great
                    > way to try out the product and see if it works
                    > well for a particular application. In some US cities or other locations
                    > abroad, B100 biodiesel might be unavailable from
                    > petroleum vendors (or they might not be able to let you siphon off the
                    > unadulterated stuff from a big storage tank, like I'm able to) and, for
                    > such small quantities used in bicycle applications, the little bottles
                    > are a fine introduction.
                    >
                    > I'm currently using B100 for a chain lube and it's working great. I'm
                    > just wondering if anyone here has yet
                    > to put some inside a geared hub and run it for any length of time.
                    >
                    > Ben in Tucson
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • pj
                    ... At room/outdoor temperatures, 75W90 gear oil is lighter in weight than the old Sturmey-Archer branded Cycle oil.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 9, 2013
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                      > Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.

                      At room/outdoor temperatures, 75W90 gear oil is lighter in weight than the old Sturmey-Archer branded Cycle oil.

                      <http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/>

                      Sturmey-Archer Cycle Oil was, we will remember, used 80+ years ago by cyclists who reported 30,000+ miles of immeasurable wear and trouble free service with their hubs.

                      <http://threespeedmania.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/kgrhqjhjdkfcu-vpucobqzmogtjjw60_3.jpg?w=590>

                      In the current era, the home tribologist trend for IGHs is to very light weight lubricants. Time will tell.

                      pj

                      PS: BTW & FWIF, none of my riding partners has ever mentioned the way my IGH smells. : )
                    • Benjamin Nead
                      Thanks, Tony, for clarifying things. You obviously have a lot more hands-on experience with biodiesel (actually using it as an auto fuel) than I have. Yes,
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 9, 2013
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                        Thanks, Tony, for clarifying things. You obviously have a lot more
                        hands-on experience with biodiesel (actually using it as an auto fuel)
                        than I have. Yes, heating the ingredients to make it doesn't require
                        reaching the boiling point of methanol (BOOM!) I was going off memory
                        and not consulting the books on my shelf for specific temperatures, as I
                        should have. Anyone who wants to make up their own batches of biodiesel
                        should consult several of the many references first and compare notes
                        before any cooking commences.

                        I also couldn't remember the name of the particular plastic (Vitron)
                        that is commonly used in place of rubber when modifying an older vehicle
                        for biodiesel operation. Likewise, I didn't mean to imply that biodiesel
                        was the cause of fuel filter blockage but, rather, using it cleans up
                        tank crud left behind by previous extensive petrodiesel use and that
                        swapping clogged fuel filters is part of the "breaking in" process.

                        When talking about biodiesel to the uninitiated, the confusion factor
                        I've always witnessed is differentiating it with the running of a car
                        off of unmodified vegetable oil. When you say "biodiesel," a lot of
                        people still think about fuel preheat tanks and all the other related
                        tomfoolery associated with "grease cars."

                        What I have always found frustrating is that auto OEMs have a very
                        hostile relationship with biodiesel. You and I both know that B100 is
                        perfectly safe in any of today's diesel cars. The engines will last
                        longer and burn less pollution than if using even the cleanest of low
                        sulfur petrodiesels. But all of the manufacturers will void new vehicle
                        warranties if end users runs anything more than B5 through their
                        engines. Hence, you see a far greater use of pure biodiesel amongst
                        owners of older diesel cars, which is where all that Vitron part
                        retrofitting and initial fuel filter swapping will be occuring.

                        Regardless, you've answered my question in regards to using it inside an
                        IGH . . . cold weather gelling makes it less than ideal as a universal
                        solution for that particular application. B100 is fabulously good chain
                        lube (especially down here in warm Arizona) and I'm still going to use
                        it for that. But I would probably want to use something like Phil Wood
                        Tenacity Oil (which, I'm guessing, is basically a premium grade mineral
                        gear oil) for inside the hub.

                        Ben in Tucson

                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        anthonyeberger wrote:
                        >
                        > WOW for once something on this list I know a little about.
                        >
                        > Good story but Ben you've got a little of your information incorrect.
                        > I'm a bit of a BioD nut making it for a while and running a COOP here
                        > in Milwaukee for a bit.
                        >
                        > I do use Bio-Diesel as a rust remover and as a chain lube and can say
                        > it is a very good product. I'd suggest it to anyone but only in the
                        > summer unless you live in AZ or other warmer areas.
                        >
                        > BioD's cloud point it much higher than standard diesel. It starts to
                        > gel (at 100) at a much warmer temp that traditional dio-diesel. For
                        > this reason, I'd also not use it as a gear lube in any of my IGH's in
                        > any midwest unless those bikes are only used in warmer months.
                        >
                        > To clarify a few points below though. You don't boil this at all. It's
                        > a chemical reaction between the products. Very little heating is
                        > required and to much can cause bad things to happen (FIRE, and methyl
                        > fire is virtually invisible until it's too late).
                        >
                        > Any modern Diesel engine can run Bio-D in just about any percentage.
                        > Older IDI diesels require the rubber hoses in the fuel system to be
                        > replaced by something that can handle the alcohol. Viton lines are the
                        > preferred choice. But Modern diesel engines require zero modifications.
                        >
                        > That said, the fuel is also superior for the reason below but with one
                        > added bonus not mentioned. Bio-D cleans the deposits left behind that
                        > petro(Dino) diesel causes. It, in effect, greatly increases the
                        > longevity of a diesel motor!
                        >
                        > As a now former TDi owner, I frequently saw diesels with well over
                        > 300k on them running a mixture of B20 (20% bio to 80 Dino) I even had
                        > a buddy service a VW Bug with 669k on it when it rolled into his shop,
                        > it's still on the road and I'd suspect close to the 1M mark. Note that
                        > some people switch and then complain that their vehicle as problems
                        > requiring filter changes etc. This is NOT a problem with the bio but
                        > rather the fuel that was used prior. The bio-diesel is cleaning the
                        > contaminants of the previous fuel out of the lines.
                        >
                        > I'm in no way trying to beat this post up. This is great stuff. Just
                        > more trying to clarify. For several years I've help with bio-diesel
                        > presentations at MREA and the same myths come up time and time again.
                        > Just trying to make everyone be on the same page.
                        >
                        > Try it, I think You'll like it.
                        >
                        > Small company also is selling Bio lubes for bikes.
                        > http://www.ernestolube.com/
                        >
                        > I don't know much about them but met the owner once and it's a really
                        > straight shooter (and IGH guy).
                        >
                        > Have a great weekend. Let's talk about bikes some more. Cars suck, so
                        > I have them up for IGH bikes instead.
                        >
                        > Tony B.
                        > Milwaukee WI
                        >
                        > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                        > <mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>, Benjamin Nead
                        > <mcnead@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Interesting conversation, all . . .
                        > >
                        > > To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an
                        > > IGH for any length of time on biodiesel?
                        > >
                        > > Biodiesel is transesterified vegetable oil . . . ie: all the glycerines
                        > > present in raw vegetable oil are separated out via boiling down
                        > > the plant oil with a mixtrure of methyl alcohol and lye. With few
                        > > modifications to most automotive diesel engines, biodiesel provides a
                        > > far more environmentally benign fuel alternative (in both the refining
                        > > process and in the form of combustible byproducts) to convention
                        > > petro-diesels. It also has amazingly good cleansing and lubricating
                        > > properties. It basically smells like whatever plant oil it was refined
                        > > from (corn, soy, etc.) . . .
                        > >
                        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
                        > >
                        > > I keep a gallon-sized glass jug around the house. It is, worlds away,
                        > > the best rust removal product I have ever used. I can't remember the
                        > > last time I had to buy WD40 or similar rust-busting penetrating oils.
                        > >
                        > > On a completely different application, it is a perfectly safe and
                        > > suitable product for putting luster back into non-finished hardwoods,
                        > > such as ebony, teak or rosewood. All you need is a little dab on a
                        > clean
                        > > cloth for that particular job. Biodiesel really is amazing stuff.
                        > >
                        > > Check around your town with various petroleum wholesalers or fleet fuel
                        > > retailers to find it. When I get my gallon jug refilled every year
                        > or so
                        > > from Arizona Petroleum here in Tucson, I make damn sure they siphon off
                        > > the pure stuff (B99 or B100) from their large storage tank and NOT to
                        > > get it out of the automotive pump nozzle, where it has almost certainly
                        > > been mixed with petrodiesel blends (B5, B20, etc.)
                        > >
                        > > Biodiesel will not hurt plastics (at least ones found in modern
                        > > automotive diesel fuel systems) but it WILL break down natural rubber
                        > > fairly quickly. It will also strip certain paints off metal. I wouldn't
                        > > think of ingesting biodiesel internally but, apparently, even this has
                        > > been done by few brave souls with no ill affect or injury. A similarly
                        > > small quantity of petrodiesel would have certainly put that same person
                        > > in the emergency room next to a stomach pump or killed them outright.
                        > >
                        > > There are a least a couple of commercially-available bike-dedicated
                        > > products that appears to be essentially either pure
                        > > biodiesel or a mixture of biodiesel with synthetic lubricants.
                        > >
                        > > Pedro's Go! and ChainJ appears to fall in this latter category . . .
                        > >
                        > > http://www.pedros.com/go.htm
                        > >
                        > > http://www.pedros.com/chainj.htm
                        > >
                        > > Going by their web description, I would be willing to bet that Phil
                        > Wood
                        > > Bio-Lube Oil is a pure biodiesel . . .
                        > >
                        > > http://www.philwood.com/products/gohc/oilngrease.php
                        > >
                        > > I ordered up a bottle of Skip To Renew's Raceday Bike Chain Lube in the
                        > > mail . . .
                        > >
                        > > http://www.skiptorenew.com/recyclist/
                        > >
                        > > . . . which is one of two algae-based bio lubes they offer. Other than
                        > > the greenish tint, it appears to
                        > > be identical (viscosity . . . even the smell) to the corn-based B100 I
                        > > buy locally by the gallon
                        > > at around $4 a pop.
                        > >
                        > > The above is not meant to disparage the inflated price of small
                        > > brand-name bottles of repackaged biodiesel
                        > > that are offered on a retail level at the local bike shop. It's a great
                        > > way to try out the product and see if it works
                        > > well for a particular application. In some US cities or other locations
                        > > abroad, B100 biodiesel might be unavailable from
                        > > petroleum vendors (or they might not be able to let you siphon off the
                        > > unadulterated stuff from a big storage tank, like I'm able to) and, for
                        > > such small quantities used in bicycle applications, the little bottles
                        > > are a fine introduction.
                        > >
                        > > I'm currently using B100 for a chain lube and it's working great. I'm
                        > > just wondering if anyone here has yet
                        > > to put some inside a geared hub and run it for any length of time.
                        > >
                        > > Ben in Tucson
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                      • Zack B
                        ... While I have had no problems with my ATF dipped nexus, I won t be using it again because it is *so* toxic and disgusting to work with. -- -Zack
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 9, 2013
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                          On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 12:52 PM, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                          Automatic transmissions DO use gears.  Planetary gears, just like an IGH.

                          http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Automatic%20Transmission.html

                          Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.

                          While I have had no problems with my ATF dipped nexus, I won't be using it again because it is *so* toxic and disgusting to work with.

                           
                          --
                          -Zack
                        • James Hunter
                          Thanks Zack, Could you tell us more about ATF toxicity and suggest any alternatives which would at least minimize the effect on the environment? James
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 10, 2013
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                            Thanks Zack,

                            Could you tell us more about ATF toxicity and suggest any alternatives which would at least minimize the effect on the environment?

                            James





                            From: Zack B <zoombomber@...>
                            To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, 10 March 2013, 0:08
                            Subject: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] ATF vs. Gear Oil

                             



                            On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 12:52 PM, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                            Automatic transmissions DO use gears.  Planetary gears, just like an IGH.

                            http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Automatic%20Transmission.html

                            Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.

                            While I have had no problems with my ATF dipped nexus, I won't be using it again because it is *so* toxic and disgusting to work with.

                             
                            --
                            -Zack


                          • Zack B
                            ... It smells really bad and working with it gave me a migraine. ... If you are riding a bike, you are so far ahead of the game in terms of the environment
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 10, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment



                              On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 1:38 AM, James Hunter <jhstonewalling@...> wrote:
                               

                              Thanks Zack,

                              Could you tell us more about ATF toxicity

                              It smells really bad and working with it gave me a migraine.

                               
                              and suggest any alternatives which would at least minimize the effect on the environment?

                              If you are riding a bike, you are so far ahead of the game in terms of the environment that I wouldn't worry about it beyond taking your used oil/atf/etc to the proper disposal sites



                              --
                              -Zack
                            • Benjamin Nead
                              Hi folks . . . My guess is that reading the manufacturer product safety sheets for various formulas of auto tranny fluid would also be migraine-inducing. It s
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 10, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi folks . . .

                                My guess is that reading the manufacturer product safety sheets for
                                various formulas of auto tranny fluid would also be migraine-inducing.
                                It's been observed by others here that the sort of relatively
                                unadulterated mineral oils used for a century in IGHs is probably more
                                than sufficient to keep them running smoothly.

                                But, yes, whatever you end up using in your hub, drain the old stuff
                                into a jar or metal can and take it to a commercial auto oil change
                                shop. If they balk or want to charge a lot of money to get rid of it for
                                you, most large US metro areas also have an EPA facility that will
                                gladly take it - and other toxic household products in need of safe
                                disposal - off your hands for free.

                                I threw out the suggestion of biodiesel, which is about as
                                environmentally benign a product that one can think of (smells nice,
                                too.) Beyond it's intended use as a replacement for automotive petroleum
                                diesel, it's a marvelous lubricant. But it has been observed, due to the
                                possibility of gelling in cold weather, probably not suitable
                                everywhere. Even so, dedicated bicycle bio chain lubes are commercially
                                available and, because of straight biodiesel's metal cleansing
                                properties, it's absolutely perfect to use for overhauling an old rusty
                                hub.

                                So, we're back to mineral oil and (see comments below) this might be one
                                of the best generally available options . . .

                                http://www.3inone.com/products/motor-oil/

                                Here in the IGH YahooGroups "Files" area is a PDF pertaining to hub
                                lubrication and here are some edits regarding oils . . .

                                "IGHs were traditionally lubricated with oils and have a history of
                                giving excellent service used that way. The Kyle/Berto drivetrain tests
                                suggested that oil lubrication was more efficient than grease
                                lubrication by a small amount.Sturmey-Archer no longer offers their
                                private branded Cycle Oil. 3-in-One's Motor Oil with the blue label (NOT
                                3-in-One's Multi-Purpose Oil with the black label) is probably our
                                closest modern equivalent to those little bottles of Cycle Oil of yore."

                                See above hyperlink for the 'good' blue label stuff.

                                But, very important to also note . . .

                                "3-in-One (original formulation, now marketed under the descriptor
                                Multipurpose Oil, with the black label) contains a vegetable based
                                component, citronella oil (ever notice the way 3-in-One smells?), which
                                will go rancid, break down and turn into very much a non-lubricant. This
                                residue would get cleaned off a chain in the next application, but when
                                enclosed in a small metal shell it has nowhere to go. Probably more
                                Sturmeys in the USA have been rendered inoperable by (black label)
                                3-inOne residue than for any other reason."

                                And this is the 'bad' black label stuff you DON'T want to use in your
                                hub . . .

                                http://www.3inone.com/products/multi-purpose/

                                Also . . .

                                "Some feel that Phil's Tenacious Oil is too heavy for IGH pawl springs,
                                especially in colder weather. Others have used it with no problems and
                                swear by it."

                                And, I wasn't previously aware of this factoid . . .

                                "Note: the viscosity of gear oils is measured differently than motor oil
                                . . ."

                                And, in closing . . .

                                "If the IGH uses oil lubrication, some recommend a soap-based grease
                                (Sta-lube blue marine grease or Park Poly-Lube or tan automotive grease
                                have all received votes) on the labyrinth seals/grease channels to
                                minimize weeping and water ingress. Others have suggested the use of
                                this grease on the hub's main axle bearings as well."


                                Ben in Tucson

                                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 1:38 AM, James Hunter
                                > <jhstonewalling@... <mailto:jhstonewalling@...>> wrote:
                                >
                                > Thanks Zack,
                                >
                                > Could you tell us more about ATF toxicity
                                >
                                >
                                > It smells really bad and working with it gave me a migraine.
                                >
                                >
                                > and suggest any alternatives which would at least minimize the
                                > effect on the environment?
                                >
                                >
                                > If you are riding a bike, you are so far ahead of the game in terms of
                                > the environment that I wouldn't worry about it beyond taking your used
                                > oil/atf/etc to the proper disposal sites
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --
                                > -Zack
                                >
                              • rons_hobbies
                                Ben, thanks for the info on 3-in-One motor oil, I hadn t run across it. From gummed up vintage sewing machines I am all too familiar with the citronella oil
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 11, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Ben, thanks for the info on 3-in-One motor oil, I hadn't run across it. From gummed up vintage sewing machines I am all too familiar with the citronella oil issues. Otherwise thimble oil is about as good as one can get with a pure petro oil.

                                  Ron

                                  --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Nead <mcnead@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi folks . . .
                                  <Snip>

                                  >
                                  > "3-in-One (original formulation, now marketed under the descriptor
                                  > Multipurpose Oil, with the black label) contains a vegetable based
                                  > component, citronella oil (ever notice the way 3-in-One smells?), which will go rancid, break down and turn into very much a non-lubricant. This residue would get cleaned off a chain in the next application, but when enclosed in a small metal shell it has nowhere to go. Probably more Sturmeys in the USA have been rendered inoperable by (black label) 3-inOne residue than for any other reason."
                                  >
                                  > And this is the 'bad' black label stuff you DON'T want to use in your
                                  > hub . . .
                                  >
                                  > http://www.3inone.com/products/multi-purpose/
                                  >Snip>
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