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Re: Alfine at 10,000 km on ATF

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  • Dan Burkhart
    I guess I m asking what qualifies as a success. Some time ago, after Shimano started with their oil dip products and reccomendations,there was lots of
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 5, 2013
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      I guess I'm asking what qualifies as a success. Some time ago, after Shimano started with their oil dip products and reccomendations,there was lots of discussion here and elsewhere about whether other lubes such as ATF would be suitable as options to the costly Shimano oil.
      It was not long after that, I undertook this long term test, after discussing it with the owner of the bike.
      I was just updating the progress really.
      Stay tuned for next year's installment.
      Dan

      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Colin Bryant <sk8ski2004@...> wrote:
      >
      > What do you consider a success?  What is your goal, with the switch from grease, to oil?  I never changed the grease in either Alfine 8, that I had.  Each had over 15,000km, when the bikes were sold & stolen.
      >
      > My Alfine 11 has about 17,000km on it now.  I do appreciate being able to change the oil, getting rid of any contaminants, without disassembling the hub.  Have you drilled and tapped a fill/drain screw in your hub body?
      >  
      > --
      >
      > Colin Bryant
      > Vancouver, Canada
      >  
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Dan Burkhart <boomer5319@...>
      > To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 5:22:14 PM
      > Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Alfine at 10,000 km on ATF
      >
      >
      >  
      > How long until I can consider this a success?
      >
      > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYBe3op7Pd8
      >
    • Anwar Rahim
      Just watched the video. Ended up watching three!! The disassembly and the one about alignment also. I d say it s quite difficult to judge when the `experiment
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 6, 2013
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        Just watched the video. Ended up watching three!! The disassembly and the one about alignment also.

        I'd say it's quite difficult to judge when the `experiment' would be deemed a success. I think a good measure is to compare it to another two Alfine8 hubs. One that had done similar mileage but has never had an oil change, this would be interesting to see how the effect of the regular oil change has on the hub. I imagine it would be quite sticky or dry, affecting efficiency and long term wear. Also to compare it to an Alfine8 that had regular oil changes with the Shimano oil. Though at 10k miles I should imagine there would be very little difference to the ATF oiled one. In which case there is success in that you've saved money on having to buy the Shimano specific lube. I also reckon that regular oil baths with ATF would mean that the hub would wear/last/function just as well as a Shimano oiled hub, but I guess only time (and plenty of riding!!) will tell. Hopefully your rider will stick with this hub for a good while yet!

        I should imagine that half decent ATF would work very well as a substitute for hub gear specific lube (if not better) as it has to go through a much harder life through an engine than a hub.

        Do you use a specific ATF? When I disassembled my Sram dual drive (some time ago) I read about ATFs having different viscosities and to choose one that was relatively light. Is there any merit in this or is four stroke engine oil (as Sheldon suggests) sufficient?

        Anwar




        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Burkhart" <boomer5319@...> wrote:
        >
        > I guess I'm asking what qualifies as a success. Some time ago, after Shimano started with their oil dip products and reccomendations,there was lots of discussion here and elsewhere about whether other lubes such as ATF would be suitable as options to the costly Shimano oil.
        > It was not long after that, I undertook this long term test, after discussing it with the owner of the bike.
        > I was just updating the progress really.
        > Stay tuned for next year's installment.
        > Dan
        >
      • David Chase
        ... I would use a light synthetic. Heavy transmission oils lead to drag in a bike hub, and are also smelly when they leak. Synthetic oils have fantastic
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 6, 2013
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          On 2013-03-06, at 3:42 AM, Anwar Rahim <anwar.rhm@...> wrote:
          > Do you use a specific ATF? When I disassembled my Sram dual drive (some time ago) I read about ATFs having different viscosities and to choose one that was relatively light. Is there any merit in this or is four stroke engine oil (as Sheldon suggests) sufficient?

          I would use a light synthetic.
          Heavy transmission oils lead to drag in a bike hub, and are also smelly when they leak.
          Synthetic oils have fantastic lubricating properties, generally far better than those derived from rocks.

          You do have to worry a little bit about
          (a) voiding manufacturer warranties (if any exist) and
          (b) possible incompatibilities with some plastics.

          I think (b) is unlikely. I've seen it with brake fluids, and you might get it with very old, strange plastics, but it would be silly today to use either a plastic or an oil with a risk of such an incompatibility.

          David
        • Colin Bryant
          I was an early adopter of the Alfine 11, so paid almost $700 for all the bits.  Given the rate that I used to go through chainrings, chains, cassettes and
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 6, 2013
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            I was an early adopter of the Alfine 11, so paid almost $700 for all the bits.  Given the rate that I used to go through chainrings, chains, cassettes and even the odd rear derauler, I need to get about 35,000km out of my Alfine 11, to make financial sense.  In two years, I'm already half way there, not even considering the shift while stationary or single shift lever benefits.

            If I didn't have mechanical skills, the fact that I would need to take my bike to a shop to have chainrings, chains and cassettes changed would lower the pay-off mileage of the IGH.

             
            --

            Colin Bryant
            Vancouver, Canada

             


            From: Dan Burkhart <boomer5319@...>
            To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:39:49 PM
            Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Alfine at 10,000 km on ATF

             
            I guess I'm asking what qualifies as a success. Some time ago, after Shimano started with their oil dip products and reccomendations,there was lots of discussion here and elsewhere about whether other lubes such as ATF would be suitable as options to the costly Shimano oil.
            It was not long after that, I undertook this long term test, after discussing it with the owner of the bike.
            I was just updating the progress really.
            Stay tuned for next year's installment.
            Dan

            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Colin Bryant wrote:
            >
            > What do you consider a success?  What is your goal, with the switch from grease, to oil?  I never changed the grease in either Alfine 8, that I had.  Each had over 15,000km, when the bikes were sold & stolen.
            >
            > My Alfine 11 has about 17,000km on it now.  I do appreciate being able to change the oil, getting rid of any contaminants, without disassembling the hub.  Have you drilled and tapped a fill/drain screw in your hub body?
            >  
            > --
            >
            > Colin Bryant
            > Vancouver, Canada
            >  
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Dan Burkhart
            > To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 5:22:14 PM
            > Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Alfine at 10,000 km on ATF
            >
            >
            >  
            > How long until I can consider this a success?
            >
            > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYBe3op7Pd8
            >



          • rons_hobbies
            Oils are always an interesting topic. I studied aircraft maintenance in the 70 s and my instructor pointed out then the longer lives we were seeing even them
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 7, 2013
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              Oils are always an interesting topic. I studied aircraft maintenance in the 70's and my instructor pointed out then the longer lives we were seeing even them were due to improved lubricants as much as metallurgy. And a lot has changed in the 37 years since then. This site has some good facts on automotive oils:

              http://www.valvoline.com/car-care/motor-oil-myths/

              They state the belief synthetic will leak more is a myth. I can't speak from personal experience.

              Since "W" actually stands for "winter" meaning the viscosity of the oil at a given temperature, I doubt you would find any meaningful difference between ATF brands/manufacturer standard.

              A quote:

              The use of a lint free white rag to wipe the dipstick on automatic transmissions is advised so that the color of the fluid can be checked. Dark brown or black ATF can be an indicator of a transmission problem, vehicle abuse, or fluid that has far exceeded its useful life. Overused ATF often has reduced lubrication properties and abrasive friction materials (from clutches and brake bands) suspended in it; failure to replace such fluid will accelerate transmission wear and could eventually ruin an otherwise healthy transmission.[citation needed] However color alone is not a completely reliable indication of the service life of an ATF as most ATF products will darken with use. The manufacturer's recommended service interval is a more reliable measure of ATF life. In the absence of service or repair records, fluid color is a common means of gauging ATF service life.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission_fluid

              (Note, my '98 Ford Explorer's owners manual says no need to change, but it hasn't been red for may years. Time for maintenance).

              I suspect any ridding is far below the lubrication requirements in an automobile given the operating temperatures involved. And synthetics are derived from rocks. <grin>

              Ron

              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > On 2013-03-06, at 3:42 AM, Anwar Rahim <anwar.rhm@...> wrote:
              > > Do you use a specific ATF? When I disassembled my Sram dual drive (some time ago) I read about ATFs having different viscosities

              <Snip>a
              >
              > You do have to worry a little bit about
              > (a) voiding manufacturer warranties (if any exist) and
              > (b) possible incompatibilities with some plastics.
              >
              > I think (b) is unlikely. I've seen it with brake fluids, and you might get it with very old, strange plastics, but it would be silly today to use either a plastic or an oil with a risk of such an incompatibility.
              >
              > David
              >
            • aarons_bicycle_repair
              Why does everyone think Automatic Transmission Fluid is better than gear oil? Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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                Why does everyone think Automatic Transmission Fluid is better than gear oil?

                Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another fan in fluid. Am I wrong here?

                It seems to me if you were going to use automotive lubricants, you would use something designed for cooler areas of the car like the differential. Bicycles do not generate much heat. Even a disc brake does not heat up the hub much. Drums sure do, though! One reason Sturmey-Archer uses a light grease in their 5 speed drum hubs.

                That is what we use. 90 weight gear oil. Or Phil Wood Tenacious oil. Both are designed for metal on metal gears and do not react with any plastics in my 30 years of experience.

                Cheers, Aaron
              • David Chase
                Automatic transmissions DO use gears. Planetary gears, just like an IGH.
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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                  Automatic transmissions DO use gears. Planetary gears, just like an IGH.

                  http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Automatic%20Transmission.html

                  Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.

                  Synthetic oils are outstandingly good.

                  ATF is also used in some geared transmissions, and I recall that it was sometimes recommended for use in old (1960s) Saab 95 and 96 transmissions (lubrication to the 3rd-gear needle bearings was iffy with 90W). Yes, I rebuilt a couple of those. There was a guy in town who would machine bronze bushings to replace the needle bearings; when the bronze wore too much, the gear would start to whir, but you could fix it before damage was done. Needle bearings, by the time you knew they were gone, they took the shaft and the gear with them.

                  (Just did a web search to see if I could confirm my memory, failed, but stumbled across the most astonishing catalog of old Saab parts.)

                  On 2013-03-08, at 3:11 PM, aarons_bicycle_repair <aaron@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > Why does everyone think Automatic Transmission Fluid is better than gear oil?
                  >
                  > Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another fan in fluid. Am I wrong here?
                  >
                  > It seems to me if you were going to use automotive lubricants, you would use something designed for cooler areas of the car like the differential. Bicycles do not generate much heat. Even a disc brake does not heat up the hub much. Drums sure do, though! One reason Sturmey-Archer uses a light grease in their 5 speed drum hubs.
                  >
                  > That is what we use. 90 weight gear oil. Or Phil Wood Tenacious oil. Both are designed for metal on metal gears and do not react with any plastics in my 30 years of experience.
                  >
                  > Cheers, Aaron
                  >
                  >
                • Paulos, Richard G
                  ... fan driving another fan in fluid is exactly what the torque convertor does. The torque converter fits in the bell housing between the motor and
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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                    >Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another fan in fluid. Am I wrong here?

                    "fan driving another fan in fluid" is exactly what the torque convertor does. The torque converter fits in the bell housing between the motor and automatic transmission and allows your car to idle in gear when stopped at a red light. When the motor speeds up the fluid pushes the second fan harder and the car moves. At idle, it has just enough give to allow your car to keep from stalling. It is dependent on the fluid being just the right viscosity to work properly. There are many different types of atf, specified by the different auto manufacturers with a dozen characteristics. For cars you should always use what the manufacture states, not just any atf off the shelf. Newer cars have a lock out device that eliminates ALL the torque convertor slippage at high speed for improved highway mpg.

                    Most of the atf characteristics are irrelevant for igh use due to the very low power, low speed, low heat and lack of hydraulic valves. I would think which brand of atf you use does not matter at all.

                    rick
                  • Benjamin Nead
                    Interesting conversation, all . . . To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an IGH for any length of time on biodiesel? Biodiesel
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Interesting conversation, all . . .

                      To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an
                      IGH for any length of time on biodiesel?

                      Biodiesel is transesterified vegetable oil . . . ie: all the glycerines
                      present in raw vegetable oil are separated out via boiling down
                      the plant oil with a mixtrure of methyl alcohol and lye. With few
                      modifications to most automotive diesel engines, biodiesel provides a
                      far more environmentally benign fuel alternative (in both the refining
                      process and in the form of combustible byproducts) to convention
                      petro-diesels. It also has amazingly good cleansing and lubricating
                      properties. It basically smells like whatever plant oil it was refined
                      from (corn, soy, etc.) . . .

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

                      I keep a gallon-sized glass jug around the house. It is, worlds away,
                      the best rust removal product I have ever used. I can't remember the
                      last time I had to buy WD40 or similar rust-busting penetrating oils.

                      On a completely different application, it is a perfectly safe and
                      suitable product for putting luster back into non-finished hardwoods,
                      such as ebony, teak or rosewood. All you need is a little dab on a clean
                      cloth for that particular job. Biodiesel really is amazing stuff.

                      Check around your town with various petroleum wholesalers or fleet fuel
                      retailers to find it. When I get my gallon jug refilled every year or so
                      from Arizona Petroleum here in Tucson, I make damn sure they siphon off
                      the pure stuff (B99 or B100) from their large storage tank and NOT to
                      get it out of the automotive pump nozzle, where it has almost certainly
                      been mixed with petrodiesel blends (B5, B20, etc.)

                      Biodiesel will not hurt plastics (at least ones found in modern
                      automotive diesel fuel systems) but it WILL break down natural rubber
                      fairly quickly. It will also strip certain paints off metal. I wouldn't
                      think of ingesting biodiesel internally but, apparently, even this has
                      been done by few brave souls with no ill affect or injury. A similarly
                      small quantity of petrodiesel would have certainly put that same person
                      in the emergency room next to a stomach pump or killed them outright.

                      There are a least a couple of commercially-available bike-dedicated
                      products that appears to be essentially either pure
                      biodiesel or a mixture of biodiesel with synthetic lubricants.

                      Pedro's Go! and ChainJ appears to fall in this latter category . . .

                      http://www.pedros.com/go.htm

                      http://www.pedros.com/chainj.htm

                      Going by their web description, I would be willing to bet that Phil Wood
                      Bio-Lube Oil is a pure biodiesel . . .

                      http://www.philwood.com/products/gohc/oilngrease.php

                      I ordered up a bottle of Skip To Renew's Raceday Bike Chain Lube in the
                      mail . . .

                      http://www.skiptorenew.com/recyclist/

                      . . . which is one of two algae-based bio lubes they offer. Other than
                      the greenish tint, it appears to
                      be identical (viscosity . . . even the smell) to the corn-based B100 I
                      buy locally by the gallon
                      at around $4 a pop.

                      The above is not meant to disparage the inflated price of small
                      brand-name bottles of repackaged biodiesel
                      that are offered on a retail level at the local bike shop. It's a great
                      way to try out the product and see if it works
                      well for a particular application. In some US cities or other locations
                      abroad, B100 biodiesel might be unavailable from
                      petroleum vendors (or they might not be able to let you siphon off the
                      unadulterated stuff from a big storage tank, like I'm able to) and, for
                      such small quantities used in bicycle applications, the little bottles
                      are a fine introduction.

                      I'm currently using B100 for a chain lube and it's working great. I'm
                      just wondering if anyone here has yet
                      to put some inside a geared hub and run it for any length of time.

                      Ben in Tucson


                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                      David Chase wrote:
                      > Automatic transmissions DO use gears. Planetary gears, just like an IGH.
                      >
                      > http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Automatic%20Transmission.html
                      >
                      > Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.
                      >
                      > Synthetic oils are outstandingly good.
                      >
                      > ATF is also used in some geared transmissions, and I recall that it was sometimes recommended for use in old (1960s) Saab 95 and 96 transmissions (lubrication to the 3rd-gear needle bearings was iffy with 90W). Yes, I rebuilt a couple of those. There was a guy in town who would machine bronze bushings to replace the needle bearings; when the bronze wore too much, the gear would start to whir, but you could fix it before damage was done. Needle bearings, by the time you knew they were gone, they took the shaft and the gear with them.
                      >
                      > (Just did a web search to see if I could confirm my memory, failed, but stumbled across the most astonishing catalog of old Saab parts.)
                      >
                      > On 2013-03-08, at 3:11 PM, aarons_bicycle_repair <aaron@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >> Why does everyone think Automatic Transmission Fluid is better than gear oil?
                      >>
                      >> Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another fan in fluid. Am I wrong here?
                      >>
                      >> It seems to me if you were going to use automotive lubricants, you would use something designed for cooler areas of the car like the differential. Bicycles do not generate much heat. Even a disc brake does not heat up the hub much. Drums sure do, though! One reason Sturmey-Archer uses a light grease in their 5 speed drum hubs.
                      >>
                      >> That is what we use. 90 weight gear oil. Or Phil Wood Tenacious oil. Both are designed for metal on metal gears and do not react with any plastics in my 30 years of experience.
                      >>
                      >> Cheers, Aaron
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • jim
                      So how well does this stuff stay in/on something when it s used as a lube?  Phil s Tenacious and some gear additives I ve been using on bikes are relatively
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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                        So how well does this stuff stay in/on something when it's used as a lube?  Phil's Tenacious and some gear additives I've been using on bikes are relatively good at sticking around... so to speak. The diesel I've used in my tractor is pretty thin stuff that might make a decent chain lube (or wash), but it doesn't seem like it would remain in hub for very long.
                         
                        Petro diesel in the West Palm Beach area is $4.17 right now, sounds like you're getting a deal on a much less aggravating and safer form. The rock stuff makes me wheeze just to whiff it.
                         
                        jim / so. fla.

                        From: Benjamin Nead <mcnead@...>
                        To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, March 9, 2013 12:43 AM
                        Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Biodiesel (was "ATF vs. Gear Oil")

                        Interesting conversation, all . . .

                        To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an
                        IGH for any length of time on biodiesel?

                        Biodiesel is transesterified vegetable oil . . . ie: all the glycerines
                        present in raw vegetable oil are separated out via boiling down
                        the plant oil with a mixtrure of methyl alcohol and lye. With few
                        modifications to most automotive diesel engines, biodiesel provides a
                        far more environmentally benign fuel alternative (in both the refining
                        process and in the form of combustible byproducts) to convention
                        petro-diesels. It also has amazingly good cleansing and lubricating
                        properties. It basically smells like whatever plant oil it was refined
                        from (corn, soy, etc.) . . .

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

                        I keep a gallon-sized glass jug around the house. It is, worlds away,
                        the best rust removal product I have ever used. I can't remember the
                        last time I had to buy WD40 or similar rust-busting penetrating oils.

                        On a completely different application, it is a perfectly safe and
                        suitable product for putting luster back into non-finished hardwoods,
                        such as ebony, teak or rosewood. All you need is a little dab on a clean
                        cloth for that particular job. Biodiesel really is amazing stuff.

                        Check around your town with various petroleum wholesalers or fleet fuel
                        retailers to find it. When I get my gallon jug refilled every year or so
                        from Arizona Petroleum here in Tucson,  I make damn sure they siphon off
                        the pure stuff (B99 or B100) from their large storage tank and NOT to
                        get it out of the automotive pump  nozzle, where it has almost certainly
                        been mixed with petrodiesel blends (B5, B20, etc.)

                        Biodiesel will not hurt plastics (at least ones found in modern
                        automotive diesel fuel systems) but it WILL break down natural rubber
                        fairly quickly. It will also strip certain paints off metal. I wouldn't
                        think of ingesting biodiesel internally but, apparently, even this has
                        been done by few brave souls with no ill affect or injury. A similarly
                        small quantity of petrodiesel would have certainly put that same person
                        in the emergency room next to a stomach pump or killed them outright.

                        There are a least a couple of commercially-available bike-dedicated
                        products that appears to be essentially either pure
                        biodiesel or a mixture of biodiesel with synthetic lubricants.

                        Pedro's Go! and ChainJ appears to fall in this latter category . . .

                        http://www.pedros.com/go.htm

                        http://www.pedros.com/chainj.htm

                        Going by their web description, I would be willing to bet that Phil Wood
                        Bio-Lube Oil is a pure biodiesel . . .

                        http://www.philwood.com/products/gohc/oilngrease.php

                        I ordered up a bottle of Skip To Renew's Raceday Bike Chain Lube in the
                        mail . . .

                        http://www.skiptorenew.com/recyclist/

                        . . . which is one of two algae-based bio lubes they offer. Other than
                        the greenish tint, it appears to
                        be identical (viscosity . . . even the smell) to the corn-based B100 I
                        buy locally by the gallon
                        at around $4 a pop.

                        The above is not meant to disparage the inflated price of small
                        brand-name bottles of repackaged biodiesel
                        that are offered on a retail level at the local bike shop. It's a great
                        way to try out the product and see if it works
                        well for a particular application. In some US cities or other locations
                        abroad, B100 biodiesel might be unavailable from
                        petroleum vendors (or they might not be able to let you siphon off the
                        unadulterated stuff from a big storage tank, like I'm able to) and, for
                        such small quantities used in bicycle applications, the little bottles
                        are a fine introduction.

                        I'm currently using B100 for a chain lube and it's working great. I'm
                        just wondering if anyone here has yet
                        to put some inside a geared hub and run it for any length of time.

                        Ben in Tucson


                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                        David Chase wrote:
                        > Automatic transmissions DO use gears.  Planetary gears, just like an IGH.
                        >
                        > http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Automatic%20Transmission.html
                        >
                        > Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.
                        >
                        > Synthetic oils are outstandingly good.
                        >
                        > ATF is also used in some geared transmissions, and I recall that it was sometimes recommended for use in old (1960s) Saab 95 and 96 transmissions (lubrication to the 3rd-gear needle bearings was iffy with 90W).  Yes, I rebuilt a couple of those.  There was a guy in town who would machine
                        bronze bushings to replace the needle bearings; when the bronze wore too much, the gear would start to whir, but you could fix it before damage was done.  Needle bearings, by the time you knew they were gone, they took the shaft and the gear with them.
                        >
                        > (Just did a web search to see if I could confirm my memory, failed, but stumbled across the most astonishing catalog of old Saab parts.)
                        >
                        > On 2013-03-08, at 3:11 PM, aarons_bicycle_repair <aaron@...> wrote:
                        >

                        >> Why does everyone think Automatic Transmission Fluid is better than gear oil?
                        >>
                        >> Automatic transmissions do not use gears! Basically it is a fan driving another fan in fluid. Am I wrong here?
                        >>
                        >> It seems to me if you were going to use automotive lubricants, you would use something designed
                        for cooler areas of the car like the differential. Bicycles do not generate much heat. Even a disc brake does not heat up the hub much. Drums sure do, though! One reason Sturmey-Archer uses a light grease in their 5 speed drum hubs.
                        >>
                        >> That is what we use. 90 weight gear oil. Or Phil Wood Tenacious oil. Both are designed for metal on metal gears and do not react with any plastics in my 30 years of experience.
                        >>
                        >> Cheers, Aaron
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>   
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >




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                      • Benjamin Nead
                        I should emphasize, Jim, that I would NOT recommend using any sort of petrodiesel as a lube on your bicycle components, as that stuff is corrosive and - most
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 8, 2013
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                          I should emphasize, Jim, that I would NOT recommend using any sort of
                          petrodiesel as a lube on your bicycle components,
                          as that stuff is corrosive and - most certainly - a terrible lubricant.

                          As I mentioned earlier, sourcing biodiesel from the corner gas station
                          pump might not be the best way to get it, as that pump most likely will
                          also be dispensing standard petrodiesels or bio/petro blends. You might
                          have to run several gallons through the hose and nozzle before the good
                          B100 stuff comes out. Find a fleet retailer (industrial part of town)
                          who will siphon it off from a large overhead storage tank. Maybe these
                          folks can help you? . . .

                          http://www.biodieselsfl.com/about.html

                          Or . . . the easiest way to get a small sample in pure form for some
                          casual experimenting on your bike is to buy it in the little bottles
                          from the LBS, as I'm almost sure this is exactly what Phil Wood Bio Lube
                          and the two different blends of Skip To Renew is. Biodiesel is fairly
                          thin viscosity, but it's certainly thicker that conventional automotive
                          fuels and less thick than either motor crankcase oil or straight
                          vegetable oil. Maybe in the 5 to 10W range? Phil Wood's web site
                          indicates that their Bio Lube is not as thick as their Tenacity oil.

                          As far as using as a fuel in your tractor, I would be careful about
                          switching back and forth between petro and biodiesel.
                          Biodiesel will clean the rust and crud in the bottom of the tank left
                          behind by petrodiesel and, in the short term, clog your fuel filter.
                          After running a couple of tanks of the bio and swapping new fuels
                          filters a couple of times, though, you should be fine. And, again,
                          rubber fuel line parts will have to be swapped out for plastic ones.

                          However, if you run a tank or two of petrodiesel after doing all of the
                          above, you will probably have to do the fuel filter thing all over again
                          when/if you go back to bio. Bottom line: stay with either petro or bio
                          in your tractor. If you find a reliable source of biodiesel and you've
                          done all of the above, go for it and don't ever switch back to the
                          wheeze 'n whiff petro stuff. You'll LOVE the smell of biodiesel . . .
                          kind of like salad dressing! :-)

                          As far as what I paid for it, Tucson auto fuel prices are almost always
                          on the low side nationally. I don't check daily but in September of
                          2012, the last time I filled up my gallon glass jug with B100, prices on
                          all fuels were probably lower than they are now. Because biodiesel is
                          made in smaller quantities that petro, it's invariably going to be a
                          little more expensive per gallon.

                          Ben in Tucson

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                          jim wrote:
                          >
                          > So how well does this stuff stay in/on something when it's used as a
                          > lube? Phil's Tenacious and some gear additives I've been using on
                          > bikes are relatively good at sticking around... so to speak. The
                          > diesel I've used in my tractor is pretty thin stuff that might make a
                          > decent chain lube (or wash), but it doesn't seem like it would remain
                          > in hub for very long.
                          >
                          > Petro diesel in the West Palm Beach area is $4.17 right now, sounds
                          > like you're getting a deal on a much less aggravating and safer form.
                          > The rock stuff makes me wheeze just to whiff it.
                          >
                          > jim / so. fla.
                          >

                          -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > *From:* Benjamin Nead <mcnead@...>
                          > *To:* Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                          > *Sent:* Saturday, March 9, 2013 12:43 AM
                          > *Subject:* [Geared_hub_bikes] Biodiesel (was "ATF vs. Gear Oil")
                          >
                          > Interesting conversation, all . . .
                          >
                          > To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an
                          > IGH for any length of time on biodiesel?
                          >
                          > Biodiesel is transesterified vegetable oil . . . ie: all the glycerines
                          > present in raw vegetable oil are separated out via boiling down
                          > the plant oil with a mixtrure of methyl alcohol and lye. With few
                          > modifications to most automotive diesel engines, biodiesel provides a
                          > far more environmentally benign fuel alternative (in both the refining
                          > process and in the form of combustible byproducts) to convention
                          > petro-diesels. It also has amazingly good cleansing and lubricating
                          > properties. It basically smells like whatever plant oil it was refined
                          > from (corn, soy, etc.) . . .
                          >
                          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
                          >
                          > I keep a gallon-sized glass jug around the house. It is, worlds away,
                          > the best rust removal product I have ever used. I can't remember the
                          > last time I had to buy WD40 or similar rust-busting penetrating oils.
                          >
                          > On a completely different application, it is a perfectly safe and
                          > suitable product for putting luster back into non-finished hardwoods,
                          > such as ebony, teak or rosewood. All you need is a little dab on a clean
                          > cloth for that particular job. Biodiesel really is amazing stuff.
                          >
                          > Check around your town with various petroleum wholesalers or fleet fuel
                          > retailers to find it. When I get my gallon jug refilled every year or so
                          > from Arizona Petroleum here in Tucson, I make damn sure they siphon off
                          > the pure stuff (B99 or B100) from their large storage tank and NOT to
                          > get it out of the automotive pump nozzle, where it has almost certainly
                          > been mixed with petrodiesel blends (B5, B20, etc.)
                          >
                          > Biodiesel will not hurt plastics (at least ones found in modern
                          > automotive diesel fuel systems) but it WILL break down natural rubber
                          > fairly quickly. It will also strip certain paints off metal. I wouldn't
                          > think of ingesting biodiesel internally but, apparently, even this has
                          > been done by few brave souls with no ill affect or injury. A similarly
                          > small quantity of petrodiesel would have certainly put that same person
                          > in the emergency room next to a stomach pump or killed them outright.
                          >
                          > There are a least a couple of commercially-available bike-dedicated
                          > products that appears to be essentially either pure
                          > biodiesel or a mixture of biodiesel with synthetic lubricants.
                          >
                          > Pedro's Go! and ChainJ appears to fall in this latter category . . .
                          >
                          > http://www.pedros.com/go.htm
                          >
                          > http://www.pedros.com/chainj.htm
                          >
                          > Going by their web description, I would be willing to bet that Phil Wood
                          > Bio-Lube Oil is a pure biodiesel . . .
                          >
                          > http://www.philwood.com/products/gohc/oilngrease.php
                          >
                          > I ordered up a bottle of Skip To Renew's Raceday Bike Chain Lube in the
                          > mail . . .
                          >
                          > http://www.skiptorenew.com/recyclist/
                          >
                          > . . . which is one of two algae-based bio lubes they offer. Other than
                          > the greenish tint, it appears to
                          > be identical (viscosity . . . even the smell) to the corn-based B100 I
                          > buy locally by the gallon
                          > at around $4 a pop.
                          >
                          > The above is not meant to disparage the inflated price of small
                          > brand-name bottles of repackaged biodiesel
                          > that are offered on a retail level at the local bike shop. It's a great
                          > way to try out the product and see if it works
                          > well for a particular application. In some US cities or other locations
                          > abroad, B100 biodiesel might be unavailable from
                          > petroleum vendors (or they might not be able to let you siphon off the
                          > unadulterated stuff from a big storage tank, like I'm able to) and, for
                          > such small quantities used in bicycle applications, the little bottles
                          > are a fine introduction.
                          >
                          > I'm currently using B100 for a chain lube and it's working great. I'm
                          > just wondering if anyone here has yet
                          > to put some inside a geared hub and run it for any length of time.
                          >
                          > Ben in Tucson
                          >
                        • anthonyeberger
                          WOW for once something on this list I know a little about. Good story but Ben you ve got a little of your information incorrect. I m a bit of a BioD nut
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 9, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            WOW for once something on this list I know a little about.

                            Good story but Ben you've got a little of your information incorrect. I'm a bit of a BioD nut making it for a while and running a COOP here in Milwaukee for a bit.

                            I do use Bio-Diesel as a rust remover and as a chain lube and can say it is a very good product. I'd suggest it to anyone but only in the summer unless you live in AZ or other warmer areas.

                            BioD's cloud point it much higher than standard diesel. It starts to gel (at 100) at a much warmer temp that traditional dio-diesel. For this reason, I'd also not use it as a gear lube in any of my IGH's in any midwest unless those bikes are only used in warmer months.

                            To clarify a few points below though. You don't boil this at all. It's a chemical reaction between the products. Very little heating is required and to much can cause bad things to happen (FIRE, and methyl fire is virtually invisible until it's too late).

                            Any modern Diesel engine can run Bio-D in just about any percentage. Older IDI diesels require the rubber hoses in the fuel system to be replaced by something that can handle the alcohol. Viton lines are the preferred choice. But Modern diesel engines require zero modifications.

                            That said, the fuel is also superior for the reason below but with one added bonus not mentioned. Bio-D cleans the deposits left behind that petro(Dino) diesel causes. It, in effect, greatly increases the longevity of a diesel motor!

                            As a now former TDi owner, I frequently saw diesels with well over 300k on them running a mixture of B20 (20% bio to 80 Dino) I even had a buddy service a VW Bug with 669k on it when it rolled into his shop, it's still on the road and I'd suspect close to the 1M mark. Note that some people switch and then complain that their vehicle as problems requiring filter changes etc. This is NOT a problem with the bio but rather the fuel that was used prior. The bio-diesel is cleaning the contaminants of the previous fuel out of the lines.

                            I'm in no way trying to beat this post up. This is great stuff. Just more trying to clarify. For several years I've help with bio-diesel presentations at MREA and the same myths come up time and time again. Just trying to make everyone be on the same page.

                            Try it, I think You'll like it.

                            Small company also is selling Bio lubes for bikes. http://www.ernestolube.com/

                            I don't know much about them but met the owner once and it's a really straight shooter (and IGH guy).

                            Have a great weekend. Let's talk about bikes some more. Cars suck, so I have them up for IGH bikes instead.

                            Tony B.
                            Milwaukee WI

                            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Nead <mcnead@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Interesting conversation, all . . .
                            >
                            > To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an
                            > IGH for any length of time on biodiesel?
                            >
                            > Biodiesel is transesterified vegetable oil . . . ie: all the glycerines
                            > present in raw vegetable oil are separated out via boiling down
                            > the plant oil with a mixtrure of methyl alcohol and lye. With few
                            > modifications to most automotive diesel engines, biodiesel provides a
                            > far more environmentally benign fuel alternative (in both the refining
                            > process and in the form of combustible byproducts) to convention
                            > petro-diesels. It also has amazingly good cleansing and lubricating
                            > properties. It basically smells like whatever plant oil it was refined
                            > from (corn, soy, etc.) . . .
                            >
                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
                            >
                            > I keep a gallon-sized glass jug around the house. It is, worlds away,
                            > the best rust removal product I have ever used. I can't remember the
                            > last time I had to buy WD40 or similar rust-busting penetrating oils.
                            >
                            > On a completely different application, it is a perfectly safe and
                            > suitable product for putting luster back into non-finished hardwoods,
                            > such as ebony, teak or rosewood. All you need is a little dab on a clean
                            > cloth for that particular job. Biodiesel really is amazing stuff.
                            >
                            > Check around your town with various petroleum wholesalers or fleet fuel
                            > retailers to find it. When I get my gallon jug refilled every year or so
                            > from Arizona Petroleum here in Tucson, I make damn sure they siphon off
                            > the pure stuff (B99 or B100) from their large storage tank and NOT to
                            > get it out of the automotive pump nozzle, where it has almost certainly
                            > been mixed with petrodiesel blends (B5, B20, etc.)
                            >
                            > Biodiesel will not hurt plastics (at least ones found in modern
                            > automotive diesel fuel systems) but it WILL break down natural rubber
                            > fairly quickly. It will also strip certain paints off metal. I wouldn't
                            > think of ingesting biodiesel internally but, apparently, even this has
                            > been done by few brave souls with no ill affect or injury. A similarly
                            > small quantity of petrodiesel would have certainly put that same person
                            > in the emergency room next to a stomach pump or killed them outright.
                            >
                            > There are a least a couple of commercially-available bike-dedicated
                            > products that appears to be essentially either pure
                            > biodiesel or a mixture of biodiesel with synthetic lubricants.
                            >
                            > Pedro's Go! and ChainJ appears to fall in this latter category . . .
                            >
                            > http://www.pedros.com/go.htm
                            >
                            > http://www.pedros.com/chainj.htm
                            >
                            > Going by their web description, I would be willing to bet that Phil Wood
                            > Bio-Lube Oil is a pure biodiesel . . .
                            >
                            > http://www.philwood.com/products/gohc/oilngrease.php
                            >
                            > I ordered up a bottle of Skip To Renew's Raceday Bike Chain Lube in the
                            > mail . . .
                            >
                            > http://www.skiptorenew.com/recyclist/
                            >
                            > . . . which is one of two algae-based bio lubes they offer. Other than
                            > the greenish tint, it appears to
                            > be identical (viscosity . . . even the smell) to the corn-based B100 I
                            > buy locally by the gallon
                            > at around $4 a pop.
                            >
                            > The above is not meant to disparage the inflated price of small
                            > brand-name bottles of repackaged biodiesel
                            > that are offered on a retail level at the local bike shop. It's a great
                            > way to try out the product and see if it works
                            > well for a particular application. In some US cities or other locations
                            > abroad, B100 biodiesel might be unavailable from
                            > petroleum vendors (or they might not be able to let you siphon off the
                            > unadulterated stuff from a big storage tank, like I'm able to) and, for
                            > such small quantities used in bicycle applications, the little bottles
                            > are a fine introduction.
                            >
                            > I'm currently using B100 for a chain lube and it's working great. I'm
                            > just wondering if anyone here has yet
                            > to put some inside a geared hub and run it for any length of time.
                            >
                            > Ben in Tucson
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • pj
                            ... At room/outdoor temperatures, 75W90 gear oil is lighter in weight than the old Sturmey-Archer branded Cycle oil.
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 9, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              > Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.

                              At room/outdoor temperatures, 75W90 gear oil is lighter in weight than the old Sturmey-Archer branded Cycle oil.

                              <http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/>

                              Sturmey-Archer Cycle Oil was, we will remember, used 80+ years ago by cyclists who reported 30,000+ miles of immeasurable wear and trouble free service with their hubs.

                              <http://threespeedmania.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/kgrhqjhjdkfcu-vpucobqzmogtjjw60_3.jpg?w=590>

                              In the current era, the home tribologist trend for IGHs is to very light weight lubricants. Time will tell.

                              pj

                              PS: BTW & FWIF, none of my riding partners has ever mentioned the way my IGH smells. : )
                            • Benjamin Nead
                              Thanks, Tony, for clarifying things. You obviously have a lot more hands-on experience with biodiesel (actually using it as an auto fuel) than I have. Yes,
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 9, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Thanks, Tony, for clarifying things. You obviously have a lot more
                                hands-on experience with biodiesel (actually using it as an auto fuel)
                                than I have. Yes, heating the ingredients to make it doesn't require
                                reaching the boiling point of methanol (BOOM!) I was going off memory
                                and not consulting the books on my shelf for specific temperatures, as I
                                should have. Anyone who wants to make up their own batches of biodiesel
                                should consult several of the many references first and compare notes
                                before any cooking commences.

                                I also couldn't remember the name of the particular plastic (Vitron)
                                that is commonly used in place of rubber when modifying an older vehicle
                                for biodiesel operation. Likewise, I didn't mean to imply that biodiesel
                                was the cause of fuel filter blockage but, rather, using it cleans up
                                tank crud left behind by previous extensive petrodiesel use and that
                                swapping clogged fuel filters is part of the "breaking in" process.

                                When talking about biodiesel to the uninitiated, the confusion factor
                                I've always witnessed is differentiating it with the running of a car
                                off of unmodified vegetable oil. When you say "biodiesel," a lot of
                                people still think about fuel preheat tanks and all the other related
                                tomfoolery associated with "grease cars."

                                What I have always found frustrating is that auto OEMs have a very
                                hostile relationship with biodiesel. You and I both know that B100 is
                                perfectly safe in any of today's diesel cars. The engines will last
                                longer and burn less pollution than if using even the cleanest of low
                                sulfur petrodiesels. But all of the manufacturers will void new vehicle
                                warranties if end users runs anything more than B5 through their
                                engines. Hence, you see a far greater use of pure biodiesel amongst
                                owners of older diesel cars, which is where all that Vitron part
                                retrofitting and initial fuel filter swapping will be occuring.

                                Regardless, you've answered my question in regards to using it inside an
                                IGH . . . cold weather gelling makes it less than ideal as a universal
                                solution for that particular application. B100 is fabulously good chain
                                lube (especially down here in warm Arizona) and I'm still going to use
                                it for that. But I would probably want to use something like Phil Wood
                                Tenacity Oil (which, I'm guessing, is basically a premium grade mineral
                                gear oil) for inside the hub.

                                Ben in Tucson

                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                anthonyeberger wrote:
                                >
                                > WOW for once something on this list I know a little about.
                                >
                                > Good story but Ben you've got a little of your information incorrect.
                                > I'm a bit of a BioD nut making it for a while and running a COOP here
                                > in Milwaukee for a bit.
                                >
                                > I do use Bio-Diesel as a rust remover and as a chain lube and can say
                                > it is a very good product. I'd suggest it to anyone but only in the
                                > summer unless you live in AZ or other warmer areas.
                                >
                                > BioD's cloud point it much higher than standard diesel. It starts to
                                > gel (at 100) at a much warmer temp that traditional dio-diesel. For
                                > this reason, I'd also not use it as a gear lube in any of my IGH's in
                                > any midwest unless those bikes are only used in warmer months.
                                >
                                > To clarify a few points below though. You don't boil this at all. It's
                                > a chemical reaction between the products. Very little heating is
                                > required and to much can cause bad things to happen (FIRE, and methyl
                                > fire is virtually invisible until it's too late).
                                >
                                > Any modern Diesel engine can run Bio-D in just about any percentage.
                                > Older IDI diesels require the rubber hoses in the fuel system to be
                                > replaced by something that can handle the alcohol. Viton lines are the
                                > preferred choice. But Modern diesel engines require zero modifications.
                                >
                                > That said, the fuel is also superior for the reason below but with one
                                > added bonus not mentioned. Bio-D cleans the deposits left behind that
                                > petro(Dino) diesel causes. It, in effect, greatly increases the
                                > longevity of a diesel motor!
                                >
                                > As a now former TDi owner, I frequently saw diesels with well over
                                > 300k on them running a mixture of B20 (20% bio to 80 Dino) I even had
                                > a buddy service a VW Bug with 669k on it when it rolled into his shop,
                                > it's still on the road and I'd suspect close to the 1M mark. Note that
                                > some people switch and then complain that their vehicle as problems
                                > requiring filter changes etc. This is NOT a problem with the bio but
                                > rather the fuel that was used prior. The bio-diesel is cleaning the
                                > contaminants of the previous fuel out of the lines.
                                >
                                > I'm in no way trying to beat this post up. This is great stuff. Just
                                > more trying to clarify. For several years I've help with bio-diesel
                                > presentations at MREA and the same myths come up time and time again.
                                > Just trying to make everyone be on the same page.
                                >
                                > Try it, I think You'll like it.
                                >
                                > Small company also is selling Bio lubes for bikes.
                                > http://www.ernestolube.com/
                                >
                                > I don't know much about them but met the owner once and it's a really
                                > straight shooter (and IGH guy).
                                >
                                > Have a great weekend. Let's talk about bikes some more. Cars suck, so
                                > I have them up for IGH bikes instead.
                                >
                                > Tony B.
                                > Milwaukee WI
                                >
                                > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                                > <mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>, Benjamin Nead
                                > <mcnead@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Interesting conversation, all . . .
                                > >
                                > > To throw another lubricant possibility into the hat, has anyone run an
                                > > IGH for any length of time on biodiesel?
                                > >
                                > > Biodiesel is transesterified vegetable oil . . . ie: all the glycerines
                                > > present in raw vegetable oil are separated out via boiling down
                                > > the plant oil with a mixtrure of methyl alcohol and lye. With few
                                > > modifications to most automotive diesel engines, biodiesel provides a
                                > > far more environmentally benign fuel alternative (in both the refining
                                > > process and in the form of combustible byproducts) to convention
                                > > petro-diesels. It also has amazingly good cleansing and lubricating
                                > > properties. It basically smells like whatever plant oil it was refined
                                > > from (corn, soy, etc.) . . .
                                > >
                                > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
                                > >
                                > > I keep a gallon-sized glass jug around the house. It is, worlds away,
                                > > the best rust removal product I have ever used. I can't remember the
                                > > last time I had to buy WD40 or similar rust-busting penetrating oils.
                                > >
                                > > On a completely different application, it is a perfectly safe and
                                > > suitable product for putting luster back into non-finished hardwoods,
                                > > such as ebony, teak or rosewood. All you need is a little dab on a
                                > clean
                                > > cloth for that particular job. Biodiesel really is amazing stuff.
                                > >
                                > > Check around your town with various petroleum wholesalers or fleet fuel
                                > > retailers to find it. When I get my gallon jug refilled every year
                                > or so
                                > > from Arizona Petroleum here in Tucson, I make damn sure they siphon off
                                > > the pure stuff (B99 or B100) from their large storage tank and NOT to
                                > > get it out of the automotive pump nozzle, where it has almost certainly
                                > > been mixed with petrodiesel blends (B5, B20, etc.)
                                > >
                                > > Biodiesel will not hurt plastics (at least ones found in modern
                                > > automotive diesel fuel systems) but it WILL break down natural rubber
                                > > fairly quickly. It will also strip certain paints off metal. I wouldn't
                                > > think of ingesting biodiesel internally but, apparently, even this has
                                > > been done by few brave souls with no ill affect or injury. A similarly
                                > > small quantity of petrodiesel would have certainly put that same person
                                > > in the emergency room next to a stomach pump or killed them outright.
                                > >
                                > > There are a least a couple of commercially-available bike-dedicated
                                > > products that appears to be essentially either pure
                                > > biodiesel or a mixture of biodiesel with synthetic lubricants.
                                > >
                                > > Pedro's Go! and ChainJ appears to fall in this latter category . . .
                                > >
                                > > http://www.pedros.com/go.htm
                                > >
                                > > http://www.pedros.com/chainj.htm
                                > >
                                > > Going by their web description, I would be willing to bet that Phil
                                > Wood
                                > > Bio-Lube Oil is a pure biodiesel . . .
                                > >
                                > > http://www.philwood.com/products/gohc/oilngrease.php
                                > >
                                > > I ordered up a bottle of Skip To Renew's Raceday Bike Chain Lube in the
                                > > mail . . .
                                > >
                                > > http://www.skiptorenew.com/recyclist/
                                > >
                                > > . . . which is one of two algae-based bio lubes they offer. Other than
                                > > the greenish tint, it appears to
                                > > be identical (viscosity . . . even the smell) to the corn-based B100 I
                                > > buy locally by the gallon
                                > > at around $4 a pop.
                                > >
                                > > The above is not meant to disparage the inflated price of small
                                > > brand-name bottles of repackaged biodiesel
                                > > that are offered on a retail level at the local bike shop. It's a great
                                > > way to try out the product and see if it works
                                > > well for a particular application. In some US cities or other locations
                                > > abroad, B100 biodiesel might be unavailable from
                                > > petroleum vendors (or they might not be able to let you siphon off the
                                > > unadulterated stuff from a big storage tank, like I'm able to) and, for
                                > > such small quantities used in bicycle applications, the little bottles
                                > > are a fine introduction.
                                > >
                                > > I'm currently using B100 for a chain lube and it's working great. I'm
                                > > just wondering if anyone here has yet
                                > > to put some inside a geared hub and run it for any length of time.
                                > >
                                > > Ben in Tucson
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                              • Zack B
                                ... While I have had no problems with my ATF dipped nexus, I won t be using it again because it is *so* toxic and disgusting to work with. -- -Zack
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 9, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment



                                  On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 12:52 PM, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                                  Automatic transmissions DO use gears.  Planetary gears, just like an IGH.

                                  http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Automatic%20Transmission.html

                                  Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.

                                  While I have had no problems with my ATF dipped nexus, I won't be using it again because it is *so* toxic and disgusting to work with.

                                   
                                  --
                                  -Zack
                                • James Hunter
                                  Thanks Zack, Could you tell us more about ATF toxicity and suggest any alternatives which would at least minimize the effect on the environment? James
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Mar 10, 2013
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                                    Thanks Zack,

                                    Could you tell us more about ATF toxicity and suggest any alternatives which would at least minimize the effect on the environment?

                                    James





                                    From: Zack B <zoombomber@...>
                                    To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, 10 March 2013, 0:08
                                    Subject: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] ATF vs. Gear Oil

                                     



                                    On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 12:52 PM, David Chase <dr2chase@...> wrote:
                                    Automatic transmissions DO use gears.  Planetary gears, just like an IGH.

                                    http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Automatic%20Transmission.html

                                    Straight gear oil's a little thick, and it smells nasty.

                                    While I have had no problems with my ATF dipped nexus, I won't be using it again because it is *so* toxic and disgusting to work with.

                                     
                                    --
                                    -Zack


                                  • Zack B
                                    ... It smells really bad and working with it gave me a migraine. ... If you are riding a bike, you are so far ahead of the game in terms of the environment
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Mar 10, 2013
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                                      On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 1:38 AM, James Hunter <jhstonewalling@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      Thanks Zack,

                                      Could you tell us more about ATF toxicity

                                      It smells really bad and working with it gave me a migraine.

                                       
                                      and suggest any alternatives which would at least minimize the effect on the environment?

                                      If you are riding a bike, you are so far ahead of the game in terms of the environment that I wouldn't worry about it beyond taking your used oil/atf/etc to the proper disposal sites



                                      --
                                      -Zack
                                    • Benjamin Nead
                                      Hi folks . . . My guess is that reading the manufacturer product safety sheets for various formulas of auto tranny fluid would also be migraine-inducing. It s
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Mar 10, 2013
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                                        Hi folks . . .

                                        My guess is that reading the manufacturer product safety sheets for
                                        various formulas of auto tranny fluid would also be migraine-inducing.
                                        It's been observed by others here that the sort of relatively
                                        unadulterated mineral oils used for a century in IGHs is probably more
                                        than sufficient to keep them running smoothly.

                                        But, yes, whatever you end up using in your hub, drain the old stuff
                                        into a jar or metal can and take it to a commercial auto oil change
                                        shop. If they balk or want to charge a lot of money to get rid of it for
                                        you, most large US metro areas also have an EPA facility that will
                                        gladly take it - and other toxic household products in need of safe
                                        disposal - off your hands for free.

                                        I threw out the suggestion of biodiesel, which is about as
                                        environmentally benign a product that one can think of (smells nice,
                                        too.) Beyond it's intended use as a replacement for automotive petroleum
                                        diesel, it's a marvelous lubricant. But it has been observed, due to the
                                        possibility of gelling in cold weather, probably not suitable
                                        everywhere. Even so, dedicated bicycle bio chain lubes are commercially
                                        available and, because of straight biodiesel's metal cleansing
                                        properties, it's absolutely perfect to use for overhauling an old rusty
                                        hub.

                                        So, we're back to mineral oil and (see comments below) this might be one
                                        of the best generally available options . . .

                                        http://www.3inone.com/products/motor-oil/

                                        Here in the IGH YahooGroups "Files" area is a PDF pertaining to hub
                                        lubrication and here are some edits regarding oils . . .

                                        "IGHs were traditionally lubricated with oils and have a history of
                                        giving excellent service used that way. The Kyle/Berto drivetrain tests
                                        suggested that oil lubrication was more efficient than grease
                                        lubrication by a small amount.Sturmey-Archer no longer offers their
                                        private branded Cycle Oil. 3-in-One's Motor Oil with the blue label (NOT
                                        3-in-One's Multi-Purpose Oil with the black label) is probably our
                                        closest modern equivalent to those little bottles of Cycle Oil of yore."

                                        See above hyperlink for the 'good' blue label stuff.

                                        But, very important to also note . . .

                                        "3-in-One (original formulation, now marketed under the descriptor
                                        Multipurpose Oil, with the black label) contains a vegetable based
                                        component, citronella oil (ever notice the way 3-in-One smells?), which
                                        will go rancid, break down and turn into very much a non-lubricant. This
                                        residue would get cleaned off a chain in the next application, but when
                                        enclosed in a small metal shell it has nowhere to go. Probably more
                                        Sturmeys in the USA have been rendered inoperable by (black label)
                                        3-inOne residue than for any other reason."

                                        And this is the 'bad' black label stuff you DON'T want to use in your
                                        hub . . .

                                        http://www.3inone.com/products/multi-purpose/

                                        Also . . .

                                        "Some feel that Phil's Tenacious Oil is too heavy for IGH pawl springs,
                                        especially in colder weather. Others have used it with no problems and
                                        swear by it."

                                        And, I wasn't previously aware of this factoid . . .

                                        "Note: the viscosity of gear oils is measured differently than motor oil
                                        . . ."

                                        And, in closing . . .

                                        "If the IGH uses oil lubrication, some recommend a soap-based grease
                                        (Sta-lube blue marine grease or Park Poly-Lube or tan automotive grease
                                        have all received votes) on the labyrinth seals/grease channels to
                                        minimize weeping and water ingress. Others have suggested the use of
                                        this grease on the hub's main axle bearings as well."


                                        Ben in Tucson

                                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 1:38 AM, James Hunter
                                        > <jhstonewalling@... <mailto:jhstonewalling@...>> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Thanks Zack,
                                        >
                                        > Could you tell us more about ATF toxicity
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > It smells really bad and working with it gave me a migraine.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > and suggest any alternatives which would at least minimize the
                                        > effect on the environment?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > If you are riding a bike, you are so far ahead of the game in terms of
                                        > the environment that I wouldn't worry about it beyond taking your used
                                        > oil/atf/etc to the proper disposal sites
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > -Zack
                                        >
                                      • rons_hobbies
                                        Ben, thanks for the info on 3-in-One motor oil, I hadn t run across it. From gummed up vintage sewing machines I am all too familiar with the citronella oil
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Mar 11, 2013
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                                          Ben, thanks for the info on 3-in-One motor oil, I hadn't run across it. From gummed up vintage sewing machines I am all too familiar with the citronella oil issues. Otherwise thimble oil is about as good as one can get with a pure petro oil.

                                          Ron

                                          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Nead <mcnead@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hi folks . . .
                                          <Snip>

                                          >
                                          > "3-in-One (original formulation, now marketed under the descriptor
                                          > Multipurpose Oil, with the black label) contains a vegetable based
                                          > component, citronella oil (ever notice the way 3-in-One smells?), which will go rancid, break down and turn into very much a non-lubricant. This residue would get cleaned off a chain in the next application, but when enclosed in a small metal shell it has nowhere to go. Probably more Sturmeys in the USA have been rendered inoperable by (black label) 3-inOne residue than for any other reason."
                                          >
                                          > And this is the 'bad' black label stuff you DON'T want to use in your
                                          > hub . . .
                                          >
                                          > http://www.3inone.com/products/multi-purpose/
                                          >Snip>
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