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Re: Off Topic: Bike shop labo(u)r charges

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  • turncg
    To John Baldwin. Thanks John for your 2 posts on shop vs customer dynamic s. I have to admit that I m one of those cheap charlie customers, and probably avoid
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 20, 2012
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      To John Baldwin.
      Thanks John for your 2 posts on shop vs customer dynamic's.
      I have to admit that I'm one of those cheap charlie customers, and probably avoid going into a shop now to avoid the look of anguish that seems to fall on the face of the salesman as I walk in.
      Having a collection of 12 bikes at present, that are mostly built up, I realised long ago that I could never work in a bike shop, and having to deal with people like myself.
      Your post's explained it well and I really enjoyed reading them.
      Regard's
      Colin.
    • freetobike2012
      John: as a business owner operator for almost 2 decades,I nodded in agreement at your post. One gets what one pays for. I vividly remember the laundromat
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 20, 2012
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        John: as a business owner operator for almost 2 decades,I nodded in agreement at your post.
        One gets what one pays for.
        I vividly remember the laundromat owners who-every summer-somehow figured they could do their own repairs and wound up calling in desperation( about the time the college kids were due back)to get their washers and dryers back up and running.
        That mindset must be the driving force behind my having the qualified guys at my LBS do 'those adjustments and installations' (and yes,if I'm having em install it it's only fair I buy it from em..often it's cheaper than ordering on line and paying the outrageous shipping charges in New York)I don't totally feel comfortable with.

        On the flip side, I'm persona non grata at another supposedly top notch LBS after being told (and charged the $60)their mechanic couldn't get the velo orange Gran Cru compact double to work on my Paramount PDG series,it was un-doable and I should see if I could return the crankset and look at a deore triple reconfigured to a double..which the shop would gladly do( for a fee)

        I took it home fiddled with BB spacers and discovered VO had made some serious errors in designing the crank with only stiffness and light weight in mind.
        A 127mm BB (instead of the 122) and some tweaking of the front derailleur stops as well as some realigning of the rear wheel led to a very workable and enjoyable setup...and I did ride the bike back into said LBS to show the owner and his 'top mechanic' how it was done.

        We can't be masters at everything.
        Hopefully, we have both the common sense to realize when we're over our heads and the fortitude to push on if the supposed master says 'nix nix'.
        (BTW VO has reconfigured their Gran Cru and incorporated some of the suggestions I gave from my experience with their 50.4 BCD setup.)
        Rich mc

        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, John Baldwin <johnbaldwin207@...> wrote:
        >
        > We charge $60/ hour, which is fairly standard. There are some things we
        > win big on and other things we struggle to break even on, but, I'm
        > certainly not seeing that $60/ hour in my paycheck so it's all profit for
        > the shop. I see a profit percentage differential in my paycheck if jobs
        > are consistently completed under the billed hours we charge, over the
        > arbitrary weekly quota I'm held to and that nothing is returned on the
        > basis of shoddy workmanship.
        >
        > Some pre-subscribed tune-ups (an "annual tune" wherein we replace all
        > cables/ housing, remove and clean all drivetrain components, adj. shifting/
        > braking/ wheel true, clean the bike, etc) is a mere $105. This includes,
        > along with the labor, the raw materials of cables, housing, lube and fees
        > surrounding waste removal and parts washer upkeep. It's arguable that that
        > particular tune could be raised by several dollars. Someone needing that
        > involved of a tune rarely balks at the price as the bike has been sorely
        > neglected for some time. It could also be argued, though, that someone
        > needing that particular tune usually needs more parts (a bottom bracket,
        > brake pads and a new rear wheel, say) and labor to install said parts. In
        > the end, it's a toss-up if a particular customer will see the value in
        > investing $350-400 dollars to bring a bike back to life, no matter how much
        > it was once enjoyed and/or neglected. Some I can argue are VERY worth the
        > investment, especially with how far a few hundred dollars goes towards a
        > new bike, others I would rather not take a second look at, let alone spend
        > hours attempting to make some semblance of functional. Still, when it gets
        > to that point, it's usually a big old repair ticket (and subsequent bonus)
        > for me or a new bike sale for the floor.
        >
        > We got a LOT of criticism over pricing as-is so an increase would not be
        > met well by our patrons. As a bike shop, we're already dealing with
        > low-return hardware (components, accessories, etc) and marking them up to
        > keystone pricing for a 100% profit. The labor to install the hardware
        > should be relatively negligible compared to the hardware itself, but it's
        > often not. It's a thin line because you want patrons to both buy
        > components and install components on their bikes through the shop. Dealing
        > in an economy where inventory bar codes can be scanned by anyone with a
        > smartphone only for that same item to be purchased at wholesale cost and
        > shipped for free via next day air to your doorstep, we want to make
        > ordering the correct part and having it installed as easy on the customer
        > as possible. It will likely remain a low-return department of the bike
        > shop in the grander scheme of things.
        >
        > Still, when things get cranking in the early Spring through mid-summer, the
        > service department can make a lot of money and does out-gross the sales
        > floor fairly regularly. I see more and more patrons interested in paying
        > us to revive older bikes (a passion of mine). What's becoming increasingly
        > rare is a decent candidate for such a costly revival.
        >
        >
        > On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Al <k3eax@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > What are some of the typical hourly labor rates for repair/maintenance
        > > services charged by bike shops ----- if indeed they do charge by the
        > > hour? And a question for whose employment is servicing bikes, is there a
        > > flat-rate book listing the suggested amount of time needed to perform the
        > > various services and repairs? In other words is the bike repair field
        > > similar to the automotive?
        > >
        > > As a former automotive technician, I can tell you that often times
        > > the service/repair portion of a new car dealership carried the business.
        > > That is to say that the service bays were a far greater profit center than
        > > the new car showroom. Could it be that the business plan used by bike shops
        > > relies too heavily on the sale of new machines to sustain the operation?
        > > Could it be that the bike shops' service departments are charging too
        > > little?
        > >
        > > Al in Philadelphia, A.S.E. Master Automotive Technician/ Advanced
        > > Engine Performance Endorsement
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • aarons_bicycle_repair
        Many shops do charge $60 an hour for labor, which is really low in my opinion. We base our labor rates on $100 per hour. This is more in line with today s
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 20, 2012
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          Many shops do charge $60 an hour for labor, which is really low in my opinion. We base our labor rates on $100 per hour. This is more in line with today's prices, but still too low!

          Our prices are public and on our website.
          https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tzv4oaGqsUAWBIOnwYdMEsQ&output=html
          Most of our charges are based on a flat rate charge. So even if a headset overhaul takes 30 minutes or an hour we still charge the customer the same. The goal for a shop is to hire good mechanics that are fast! Rare indeed!

          Consider what other fields charge. Auto, Massage, Lawyers, Physical Therapists, Longshoremen, etc, etc. If we want good mechanics (and those that can work on any IGH) then we need to start paying them like it is a career. How many high school seniors these days are counselled to become an auto mechanic? How many to be a bicycle mechanic? Most are encouraged to got to college, even it it isn't for them.

          My local auto shop charges $100 per hour. They are totally worth it. They do it right the first time and if they do F-up they own it and fix it no charge! We do the same. There is as much to know about modern bicycles as there is to cars! Perhaps more since many old bikes are still in use. Far more than older cars.

          Cheers,
          Aaron Goss,
          Owner and Master Mechanic,
          Aaron's Bicycle Repair
          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Al <k3eax@...> wrote:
          >
          >  What are some of the typical hourly labor rates for repair/maintenance services charged by bike shops ----- if indeed they do charge by the hour?   And a question for whose employment is servicing bikes, is there a flat-rate book listing the suggested amount of time needed to perform the various services and repairs? In other words is the bike repair field similar to the automotive?
          >
          >   As a former automotive technician, I can tell you that often times the service/repair portion of  a new car dealership carried the business. That is to say that the service bays were a far greater profit center than the new car showroom. Could it be that the business plan used by bike shops relies too heavily on the sale of new machines to sustain the operation? Could it be that the bike shops' service departments are charging too little?
          >
          >   Al in Philadelphia,     A.S.E. Master Automotive Technician/ Advanced Engine Performance Endorsement
          >
        • k3eax
          Aaron, while not denying that there is great complexity seen in cycles, you re terribly wrong about there being as much to know about cycles as there is to
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 21, 2012
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            Aaron, while not denying that there is great complexity seen in cycles, you're terribly wrong about there being as much to know about cycles as there is to know about cars! As GM-trained, a holder of a degree in automotive technology, and a certified master auto technician, I can tell you that today's cars are exceedingly more complex than are cycles. This can even be said oeven of older cars.

            Al



            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "aaron's bicycle repair" <aaron@...> wrote:
            . There is as much to know about modern bicycles as there is to cars! Perhaps more since many old bikes are still in use. Far more than older cars.
            >
            > Cheers,
          • rons_hobbies
            I know I m not in the majority as a consumer who believes we all do better when we consider what it takes for someone to put food on the table. It s only when
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 21, 2012
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              I know I'm not in the majority as a consumer who believes we all do better when we consider what it takes for someone to put food on the table. It's only when I think the line fron "enlightened self interest" to greed is crossed that I'm bothered. There are many things I can't afford because the cost of production and skills that go into the production are beyond my means.

              When I worked as a contractor for the the Federal government, desk work most unfortuntally value far higher than work performed with hand tools, it wasn't hard to find out what my company was being paid for my labor. I found they needed to charge close to 90% above my rate to cover overhead before profit. Social Security taxes, medical, unemployment, 401(k) contribuition if any, etc. The direct costs per hour of labor that aren't too hard to figure out. For a small shop I expect the in-direct overhead is far above 100% what the mechanic sees per hour. So $60 an hour isn't "all profit."

              When the bike coop I volunteer at was considering a move into DC, the rent structure made me want to gag. I know the property owner needs to turn a profit too, but it meant our business model simply couldn't be made to work. Heck, people who want to give their donation on a credit card generally have no idea that costs the shop 2.75% for each credit card swipe, or 3.5% plus 15 cents if entered manually when the bloody wireless connection drops. But they sure understand the $2 ATM fee if we ask them to get cash at the 7-11 across the street.

              Just my $.02

              Ron


              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, John Baldwin <johnbaldwin207@...> wrote:
              >
              > We charge $60/ hour, which is fairly standard. There are some things we win big on and other things we struggle to break even on, but, I'm certainly not seeing that $60/ hour in my paycheck so it's all profit for the shop.

              <Snip>
            • rons_hobbies
              I tell folks working on a bike reminds me of my days owning air cooled VWs. Everything that has a cable or wears has to be kept in adjustment. I find most with
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 21, 2012
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                I tell folks working on a bike reminds me of my days owning air cooled VWs. Everything that has a cable or wears has to be kept in adjustment. I find most with an interest can manage that level of maintenance when taught. In general consummer level tires and tubes are also managable. Everything beyond that takes increasing levels of what the federal government likes to spell out as "knowledge, skills, and abilities." Knowledge that generally comes either from education or years of experience where the lessons were paid for in other ways. I know I've paid for many of my lessons.

                I can manage just about everything on my '98 Explorer (4X4 because I work in emergency management and yes, I do need to be able to get there) when I have the time. For most of the maintenance on the '08 MINI (with the "Share the road" plates) she goes to the shop. At this point I'm not willing to invest in the education or specialty tools necessary to properly do the work. I'll gladly pay one of Al's peers to do the work. Heck, just trying to find where they hid the PVC valve is a chore. Other than properly disposing of batteries and cleaning products, bikes don't have much in the way of emissions controls, electronic ride stability interfaces, etc. to deal with.

                Ron

                --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "k3eax" <k3eax@...> wrote:
                >

                > Aaron, while not denying that there is great complexity seen in cycles, you're terribly wrong about there being as much to know about cycles as there is to know about cars! As GM-trained, a holder of a degree in automotive technology, and a certified master auto technician, I can tell you that today's cars are exceedingly more complex than are cycles. This can even be said oeven of older cars.
                >
                > Al
              • bikealfa
                In my limited non-professional experience, car and bike repair are different. Modern cars have few adjustments. Wheel alignment and auto body are the only
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 21, 2012
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                  In my limited non-professional experience, car and bike repair are different. Modern cars have few adjustments. Wheel alignment and auto body are the only ones I know. And wheel alignments are one of the places where I have done better on my own than with the shops.

                  Bicycles have a lot of tuning and compatibility issues. For example as another poster mentioned - how to get the VO crankset to fit the bike and shift the way it should. How to get the wheels true and round, or as good as possible within the customer's budget. I have talked to the mechanics at buje shops, and the good ones appreciate what I want to do but do not want to be doing that for customers - it would take way too much time. The guy at Fitwerx Peabody was very amused by the bichain fixed-free though.

                  Bicycle repair and automobile repair are not the same.

                  Now if your auto shop is doing turbo swaps, autocross wheel alignments, then the car has tuning and compatibility issues.


                  Michael Wilson

                  --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "k3eax" <k3eax@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Aaron, while not denying that there is great complexity seen in cycles, you're terribly wrong about there being as much to know about cycles as there is to know about cars! As GM-trained, a holder of a degree in automotive technology, and a certified master auto technician, I can tell you that today's cars are exceedingly more complex than are cycles. This can even be said oeven of older cars.
                  >
                  > Al
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "aaron's bicycle repair" <aaron@> wrote:
                  > . There is as much to know about modern bicycles as there is to cars! Perhaps more since many old bikes are still in use. Far more than older cars.
                  > >
                  > > Cheers,
                  >
                • aarons_bicycle_repair
                  Dear Al, Have you ever successfully overhauled a Shimano STI shift lever? If you have, you will see they are about as complex as a carburetor. Can you do most
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 21, 2012
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                    Dear Al,

                    Have you ever successfully overhauled a Shimano STI shift lever?
                    If you have, you will see they are about as complex as a carburetor.
                    Can you do most IGH without the manual?

                    I agree that modern cars are very complex, but modern bicycles are quite complicated as well. A car is just made of more systems. There are smart folks in each industry developing quite complex systems, not necessarily for the better. Electronic road bike shifting?! You have to hook it up to a computer to diagnose it......just like a car!

                    Both of the mechanic/owners of the local garages bring me their bikes!
                    They comment it takes too much finesse to work on bikes! Think of a front derailleur or headset. Usually the most of then mis-adjusted parts on a bike.

                    I work on cars, but prefer not to. Too greasy, LOL!

                    I was trying to bring up my trade, please don't tear it down!
                    It was, after all, the bike guys that created the automobile back in the early 1900s. And now we need some of those smart car guys to get back into bicycles.

                    Cheers, Aaron Goss

                    --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "k3eax" <k3eax@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Aaron, while not denying that there is great complexity seen in cycles, you're terribly wrong about there being as much to know about cycles as there is to know about cars! As GM-trained, a holder of a degree in automotive technology, and a certified master auto technician, I can tell you that today's cars are exceedingly more complex than are cycles. This can even be said oeven of older cars.
                    >
                    > Al
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "aaron's bicycle repair" <aaron@> wrote:
                    > . There is as much to know about modern bicycles as there is to cars! Perhaps more since many old bikes are still in use. Far more than older cars.
                    > >
                    > > Cheers,
                    >
                  • Al
                    Okay Aaron, your points are well taken. Have a nice holiday!   Al ________________________________ From: aarons_bicycle_repair To:
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 21, 2012
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                      Okay Aaron, your points are well taken. Have a nice holiday!

                        Al

                      From: aarons_bicycle_repair <aaron@...>
                      To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 2:13 PM
                      Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Bike shop labor charges
                       
                      Dear Al,

                      Have you ever successfully overhauled a Shimano STI shift lever?
                      If you have, you will see they are about as complex as a carburetor.
                      Can you do most IGH without the manual?

                      I agree that modern cars are very complex, but modern bicycles are quite complicated as well. A car is just made of more systems. There are smart folks in each industry developing quite complex systems, not necessarily for the better. Electronic road bike shifting?! You have to hook it up to a computer to diagnose it......just like a car!

                      Both of the mechanic/owners of the local garages bring me their bikes!
                      They comment it takes too much finesse to work on bikes! Think of a front derailleur or headset. Usually the most of then mis-adjusted parts on a bike.

                      I work on cars, but prefer not to. Too greasy, LOL!

                      I was trying to bring up my trade, please don't tear it down!
                      It was, after all, the bike guys that created the automobile back in the early 1900s. And now we need some of those smart car guys to get back into bicycles.

                      Cheers, Aaron Goss

                      --- In mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com, "k3eax" <k3eax@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Aaron, while not denying that there is great complexity seen in cycles, you're terribly wrong about there being as much to know about cycles as there is to know about cars! As GM-trained, a holder of a degree in automotive technology, and a certified master auto technician, I can tell you that today's cars are exceedingly more complex than are cycles. This can even be said oeven of older cars.
                      >
                      > Al
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com, "aaron's bicycle repair" <aaron@> wrote:
                      > . There is as much to know about modern bicycles as there is to cars! Perhaps more since many old bikes are still in use. Far more than older cars.
                      > >
                      > > Cheers,
                      >

                    • Rick Paulos
                      I ve overhauled dozens of carbs. (and that pos Stihl carb a dozen times) Wrench, screw driver, solvent, air compressor, carb kit. Basic hand tools, pretty
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 21, 2012
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                        I've overhauled dozens of carbs. (and that pos
                        Stihl carb a dozen times) Wrench, screw driver,
                        solvent, air compressor, carb kit. Basic hand tools, pretty simple.

                        But STI? Tried it once and tossed it in the
                        bin. Requires special tools you can't buy. By
                        the time they act up, they are worn out and you
                        can't get most of the parts. Bike shops must
                        love replacing them, it's got to be a big money
                        maker. Makes working on IGH hubs seem simple by comparison.

                        I learned to fix any thing because I owned an
                        British car and I wasn't pulling in a doctors
                        income. Now I have a Honda so I can spend time
                        working on bikes instead of cars. The best
                        running cars in the early 1900s were
                        electric. Even Henry Ford's wife refused his gas
                        cars and kept her own electric car for her whole
                        life. Modern cars also have a bigger danger
                        factor. You could have an air bag blow up which
                        makes a blown bicycle tire seem trivial by
                        comparison. Dropping a bike from a rack, well I
                        might have broken a toe one time when a Varsity
                        nailed my foot. But try dropping an engine or
                        a car off a lift. If you want a simple car, get
                        rid of the infernal combustion engine and go all
                        electric. Look at all the complex systems can be
                        eliminated. Hybrids are the worst of both worlds
                        and that's were the "smart guys" are working now.

                        Rick




                        At 01:13 PM 11/21/2012, you wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >Dear Al,
                        >
                        >Have you ever successfully overhauled a Shimano STI shift lever?
                        >If you have, you will see they are about as complex as a carburetor.
                        >Can you do most IGH without the manual?
                        >
                        >I agree that modern cars are very complex, but
                        >modern bicycles are quite complicated as well. A
                        >car is just made of more systems. There are
                        >smart folks in each industry developing quite
                        >complex systems, not necessarily for the better.
                        >Electronic road bike shifting?! You have to hook
                        >it up to a computer to diagnose it......just like a car!
                        >
                        >Both of the mechanic/owners of the local garages bring me their bikes!
                        >They comment it takes too much finesse to work
                        >on bikes! Think of a front derailleur or
                        >headset. Usually the most of then mis-adjusted parts on a bike.
                        >
                        >I work on cars, but prefer not to. Too greasy, LOL!
                        >
                        >I was trying to bring up my trade, please don't tear it down!
                        >It was, after all, the bike guys that created
                        >the automobile back in the early 1900s. And now
                        >we need some of those smart car guys to get back into bicycles.
                        >
                        >Cheers, Aaron Goss
                        >
                        >--- In
                        ><mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com,
                        >"k3eax" <k3eax@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Aaron, while not denying that there is great
                        > complexity seen in cycles, you're terribly
                        > wrong about there being as much to know about
                        > cycles as there is to know about cars! As
                        > GM-trained, a holder of a degree in automotive
                        > technology, and a certified master auto
                        > technician, I can tell you that today's cars
                        > are exceedingly more complex than are cycles.
                        > This can even be said oeven of older cars.
                        > >
                        > > Al
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In
                        > <mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com,
                        > "aaron's bicycle repair" <aaron@> wrote:
                        > > . There is as much to know about modern
                        > bicycles as there is to cars! Perhaps more
                        > since many old bikes are still in use. Far more than older cars.
                        > > >
                        > > > Cheers,
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                      • Alex Wetmore
                        A friend recently posted a good photo series on a STI overhaul using normal tools: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrjoeball/sets/72157631921008792/ It was for
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 21, 2012
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                          A friend recently posted a good photo series on a STI overhaul using normal tools:
                          http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrjoeball/sets/72157631921008792/

                          It was for nought though, he found the failure and it's not a part that can easily be replaced and the wear is generally pretty high. It was still nice to see the photos.

                          alex

                          ________________________________________
                          From: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com [Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Rick Paulos [rick-paulos@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 1:12 PM
                          To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Bike shop labor charges

                          I've overhauled dozens of carbs. (and that pos
                          Stihl carb a dozen times) Wrench, screw driver,
                          solvent, air compressor, carb kit. Basic hand tools, pretty simple.

                          But STI? Tried it once and tossed it in the
                          bin. Requires special tools you can't buy. By
                          the time they act up, they are worn out and you
                          can't get most of the parts. Bike shops must
                          love replacing them, it's got to be a big money
                          maker. Makes working on IGH hubs seem simple by comparison.

                          I learned to fix any thing because I owned an
                          British car and I wasn't pulling in a doctors
                          income. Now I have a Honda so I can spend time
                          working on bikes instead of cars. The best
                          running cars in the early 1900s were
                          electric. Even Henry Ford's wife refused his gas
                          cars and kept her own electric car for her whole
                          life. Modern cars also have a bigger danger
                          factor. You could have an air bag blow up which
                          makes a blown bicycle tire seem trivial by
                          comparison. Dropping a bike from a rack, well I
                          might have broken a toe one time when a Varsity
                          nailed my foot. But try dropping an engine or
                          a car off a lift. If you want a simple car, get
                          rid of the infernal combustion engine and go all
                          electric. Look at all the complex systems can be
                          eliminated. Hybrids are the worst of both worlds
                          and that's were the "smart guys" are working now.

                          Rick




                          At 01:13 PM 11/21/2012, you wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >Dear Al,
                          >
                          >Have you ever successfully overhauled a Shimano STI shift lever?
                          >If you have, you will see they are about as complex as a carburetor.
                          >Can you do most IGH without the manual?
                          >
                          >I agree that modern cars are very complex, but
                          >modern bicycles are quite complicated as well. A
                          >car is just made of more systems. There are
                          >smart folks in each industry developing quite
                          >complex systems, not necessarily for the better.
                          >Electronic road bike shifting?! You have to hook
                          >it up to a computer to diagnose it......just like a car!
                          >
                          >Both of the mechanic/owners of the local garages bring me their bikes!
                          >They comment it takes too much finesse to work
                          >on bikes! Think of a front derailleur or
                          >headset. Usually the most of then mis-adjusted parts on a bike.
                          >
                          >I work on cars, but prefer not to. Too greasy, LOL!
                          >
                          >I was trying to bring up my trade, please don't tear it down!
                          >It was, after all, the bike guys that created
                          >the automobile back in the early 1900s. And now
                          >we need some of those smart car guys to get back into bicycles.
                          >
                          >Cheers, Aaron Goss
                          >
                          >--- In
                          ><mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com,
                          >"k3eax" <k3eax@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Aaron, while not denying that there is great
                          > complexity seen in cycles, you're terribly
                          > wrong about there being as much to know about
                          > cycles as there is to know about cars! As
                          > GM-trained, a holder of a degree in automotive
                          > technology, and a certified master auto
                          > technician, I can tell you that today's cars
                          > are exceedingly more complex than are cycles.
                          > This can even be said oeven of older cars.
                          > >
                          > > Al
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In
                          > <mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com,
                          > "aaron's bicycle repair" <aaron@> wrote:
                          > > . There is as much to know about modern
                          > bicycles as there is to cars! Perhaps more
                          > since many old bikes are still in use. Far more than older cars.
                          > > >
                          > > > Cheers,
                          > >
                          >
                          >




                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • Rick Paulos
                          There are different models of STI and true to form, Shimano changes the design every few years. After looking thru that photo set, I can see it s different
                          Message 12 of 18 , Nov 21, 2012
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                            There are different models of STI and true to
                            form, Shimano changes the design every few years.
                            After looking thru that photo set, I can see it's
                            different from the one I attempted. The model in
                            the photo set does look much newer and easier to
                            work on. The most common repair now is
                            extracting the broken end of the shift cable.

                            Rick


                            At 03:17 PM 11/21/2012, you wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >A friend recently posted a good photo series on
                            >a STI overhaul using normal tools:
                            ><http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrjoeball/sets/72157631921008792/>http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrjoeball/sets/72157631921008792/
                            >
                            >It was for nought though, he found the failure
                            >and it's not a part that can easily be replaced
                            >and the wear is generally pretty high. It was still nice to see the photos.
                            >
                            >alex
                            >
                            >________________________________________
                            >From:
                            ><mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                            >[<mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com]
                            >on behalf of Rick Paulos
                            >[<mailto:rick-paulos%40uiowa.edu>rick-paulos@...]
                            >Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 1:12 PM
                            >To:
                            ><mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Bike shop labor charges
                            >
                            >I've overhauled dozens of carbs. (and that pos
                            >Stihl carb a dozen times) Wrench, screw driver,
                            >solvent, air compressor, carb kit. Basic hand tools, pretty simple.
                            >
                            >But STI? Tried it once and tossed it in the
                            >bin. Requires special tools you can't buy. By
                            >the time they act up, they are worn out and you
                            >can't get most of the parts. Bike shops must
                            >love replacing them, it's got to be a big money
                            >maker. Makes working on IGH hubs seem simple by comparison.
                            >
                            >I learned to fix any thing because I owned an
                            >British car and I wasn't pulling in a doctors
                            >income. Now I have a Honda so I can spend time
                            >working on bikes instead of cars. The best
                            >running cars in the early 1900s were
                            >electric. Even Henry Ford's wife refused his gas
                            >cars and kept her own electric car for her whole
                            >life. Modern cars also have a bigger danger
                            >factor. You could have an air bag blow up which
                            >makes a blown bicycle tire seem trivial by
                            >comparison. Dropping a bike from a rack, well I
                            >might have broken a toe one time when a Varsity
                            >nailed my foot. But try dropping an engine or
                            >a car off a lift. If you want a simple car, get
                            >rid of the infernal combustion engine and go all
                            >electric. Look at all the complex systems can be
                            >eliminated. Hybrids are the worst of both worlds
                            >and that's were the "smart guys" are working now.
                            >
                            >Rick
                            >
                            >At 01:13 PM 11/21/2012, you wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >Dear Al,
                            > >
                            > >Have you ever successfully overhauled a Shimano STI shift lever?
                            > >If you have, you will see they are about as complex as a carburetor.
                            > >Can you do most IGH without the manual?
                            > >
                            > >I agree that modern cars are very complex, but
                            > >modern bicycles are quite complicated as well. A
                            > >car is just made of more systems. There are
                            > >smart folks in each industry developing quite
                            > >complex systems, not necessarily for the better.
                            > >Electronic road bike shifting?! You have to hook
                            > >it up to a computer to diagnose it......just like a car!
                            > >
                            > >Both of the mechanic/owners of the local garages bring me their bikes!
                            > >They comment it takes too much finesse to work
                            > >on bikes! Think of a front derailleur or
                            > >headset. Usually the most of then mis-adjusted parts on a bike.
                            > >
                            > >I work on cars, but prefer not to. Too greasy, LOL!
                            > >
                            > >I was trying to bring up my trade, please don't tear it down!
                            > >It was, after all, the bike guys that created
                            > >the automobile back in the early 1900s. And now
                            > >we need some of those smart car guys to get back into bicycles.
                            > >
                            > >Cheers, Aaron Goss
                            > >
                            > >--- In
                            > ><mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com><mai
                            > lto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com,
                            > >"k3eax" <k3eax@...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Aaron, while not denying that there is great
                            > > complexity seen in cycles, you're terribly
                            > > wrong about there being as much to know about
                            > > cycles as there is to know about cars! As
                            > > GM-trained, a holder of a degree in automotive
                            > > technology, and a certified master auto
                            > > technician, I can tell you that today's cars
                            > > are exceedingly more complex than are cycles.
                            > > This can even be said oeven of older cars.
                            > > >
                            > > > Al
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In
                            > >
                            > <mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com,
                            > > "aaron's bicycle repair" <aaron@> wrote:
                            > > > . There is as much to know about modern
                            > > bicycles as there is to cars! Perhaps more
                            > > since many old bikes are still in use. Far more than older cars.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Cheers,
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >------------------------------------
                            >
                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                          • pj
                            ... IIRC, the 1994 Subaru Justy was the last car in the US market to use an obsolete carburetor. ... The first internal combustion engine auto to go into
                            Message 13 of 18 , Nov 21, 2012
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                              > Have you ever successfully overhauled a Shimano STI shift lever?
                              > If you have, you will see they are about as complex as a carburetor.

                              IIRC, the 1994 Subaru Justy was the last car in the US market to use an obsolete carburetor.

                              > It was, after all, the bike guys that created the automobile
                              >back in the early 1900s.

                              The first internal combustion engine auto to go into actual production was Karl Benz' Patent Motorwagen in 1886, just one year after John Kemp Starley's Rover. Mr. Benz was not a 'bike guy'.

                              Best,
                              pj
                            • bikealfa
                              Aaron - You can successfully disassemble and reassemble STI shifters? How much do you charge? Any idea what it would take to add extra index positions? There
                              Message 14 of 18 , Nov 22, 2012
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                                Aaron -
                                You can successfully disassemble and reassemble STI shifters?

                                How much do you charge?

                                Any idea what it would take to add extra index positions?

                                There is a guy on ebay who does 8 speed STI shifters but not 9 or 10 speed.


                                Michael Wilson

                                --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "aarons_bicycle_repair" <aaron@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Al,
                                >
                                > Have you ever successfully overhauled a Shimano STI shift lever?
                                > If you have, you will see they are about as complex as a carburetor.
                                > Can you do most IGH without the manual?
                                >
                                > I agree that modern cars are very complex, but modern bicycles are quite complicated as well. A car is just made of more systems. There are smart folks in each industry developing quite complex systems, not necessarily for the better. Electronic road bike shifting?! You have to hook it up to a computer to diagnose it......just like a car!
                                >
                                > Both of the mechanic/owners of the local garages bring me their bikes!
                                > They comment it takes too much finesse to work on bikes! Think of a front derailleur or headset. Usually the most of then mis-adjusted parts on a bike.
                                >
                                > I work on cars, but prefer not to. Too greasy, LOL!
                                >
                                > I was trying to bring up my trade, please don't tear it down!
                                > It was, after all, the bike guys that created the automobile back in the early 1900s. And now we need some of those smart car guys to get back into bicycles.
                                >
                                > Cheers, Aaron Goss
                                >
                                > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "k3eax" <k3eax@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Aaron, while not denying that there is great complexity seen in cycles, you're terribly wrong about there being as much to know about cycles as there is to know about cars! As GM-trained, a holder of a degree in automotive technology, and a certified master auto technician, I can tell you that today's cars are exceedingly more complex than are cycles. This can even be said oeven of older cars.
                                > >
                                > > Al
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "aaron's bicycle repair" <aaron@> wrote:
                                > > . There is as much to know about modern bicycles as there is to cars! Perhaps more since many old bikes are still in use. Far more than older cars.
                                > > >
                                > > > Cheers,
                                > >
                                >
                              • bikealfa
                                Another data point. I read on the internet that some shop mechanic repaired a Campagnolo Ergopower shifter in about 5 minutes. Yesterday it took me an hour
                                Message 15 of 18 , Nov 24, 2012
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                                  Another data point. I read on the internet that some shop mechanic repaired a Campagnolo Ergopower shifter in about 5 minutes. Yesterday it took me an hour just to get the upshift lever spring attached to the upshift lever.

                                  I was investigating changing the 10 speed Ergopower to 11 speed because I read that it could be done. I do not see how it can be done with either Ergopower or Escape 10 speed levers and standard Ultrashift internals.


                                  Michael Wilson

                                  --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "bikealfa" <mtwils@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Aaron -
                                  > You can successfully disassemble and reassemble STI shifters?
                                  >
                                  > How much do you charge?
                                  >
                                  > Any idea what it would take to add extra index positions?
                                  >
                                  > There is a guy on ebay who does 8 speed STI shifters but not 9 or 10 speed.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Michael Wilson
                                  >
                                  > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "aarons_bicycle_repair" <aaron@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Dear Al,
                                  > >
                                  > > Have you ever successfully overhauled a Shimano STI shift lever?
                                  > > If you have, you will see they are about as complex as a carburetor.
                                  > > Can you do most IGH without the manual?
                                  > >
                                  > > I agree that modern cars are very complex, but modern bicycles are quite complicated as well. A car is just made of more systems. There are smart folks in each industry developing quite complex systems, not necessarily for the better. Electronic road bike shifting?! You have to hook it up to a computer to diagnose it......just like a car!
                                  > >
                                  > > Both of the mechanic/owners of the local garages bring me their bikes!
                                  > > They comment it takes too much finesse to work on bikes! Think of a front derailleur or headset. Usually the most of then mis-adjusted parts on a bike.
                                  > >
                                  > > I work on cars, but prefer not to. Too greasy, LOL!
                                  > >
                                  > > I was trying to bring up my trade, please don't tear it down!
                                  > > It was, after all, the bike guys that created the automobile back in the early 1900s. And now we need some of those smart car guys to get back into bicycles.
                                  > >
                                  > > Cheers, Aaron Goss
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "k3eax" <k3eax@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Aaron, while not denying that there is great complexity seen in cycles, you're terribly wrong about there being as much to know about cycles as there is to know about cars! As GM-trained, a holder of a degree in automotive technology, and a certified master auto technician, I can tell you that today's cars are exceedingly more complex than are cycles. This can even be said oeven of older cars.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Al
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "aaron's bicycle repair" <aaron@> wrote:
                                  > > > . There is as much to know about modern bicycles as there is to cars! Perhaps more since many old bikes are still in use. Far more than older cars.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Cheers,
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • aarons_bicycle_repair
                                  Overhauling a Campagnolo Ergopower is like watch repair!
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Nov 27, 2012
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                                    Overhauling a Campagnolo Ergopower is like watch repair!

                                    --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "bikealfa" <mtwils@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Another data point. I read on the internet that some shop mechanic repaired a Campagnolo Ergopower shifter in about 5 minutes. Yesterday it took me an hour just to get the upshift lever spring attached to the upshift lever.
                                    >
                                    > I was investigating changing the 10 speed Ergopower to 11 speed because I read that it could be done. I do not see how it can be done with either Ergopower or Escape 10 speed levers and standard Ultrashift internals.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Michael Wilson
                                    >
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