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Re: crank mods, was 180MM cranks, for Alfine 11 group-set?

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  • bikealfa
    Mark - I will re-iterate the question about why shorter cranks. I have read some of the tri stuff on the web about getting lower with shorter cranks, and
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 14, 2012
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      Mark -
      I will re-iterate the question about why shorter cranks. I have read some of the tri stuff on the web about getting lower with shorter cranks, and posssibly higher power. But I am already pretty low on the tri bike, with a 5.5 inch drop from saddle to elbow pads.

      And can you do custom spiders? Not sure if it is worth it, but a 33 tooth small sprocket on a double is too big for me and I hate triples. There are a few other options - 94 bcd which is rare, my own custom 30t for a 110 bcd, and 2 offerings from Velo-Orange, but none seem like what I want. The VO 50.4 bcd is a very old standard and can take almost any sprocket but at this point custom or ebay is needed, and the other crank is just a 110/74 triple with a guard instead of an outer ring.

      Michael Wilson

      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Bill 'Pedalnut' Taylor <pedalnut@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Mark,
      >
      > Many thanks for this recommendation!
      >
      > If I can't find these cranks locally, then I'll probably in touch
      > with you to order a set.
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > Bill
      >
      > p.s. Why shorter cranks? I've found my 180 mm cranks much more
      > comfortable then my older, 175 mm cranks. I'm 6'2" with a 34 "
      > inseam on most pants, so perhaps this explains my preference for
      > longer cranks?
      >
      > At 9:06 PM -0500 10/12/12, Mark Stonich wrote:
      > >SRAM Apex are available in 180mm in both road and compact double
      > >configurations. Few stock 180s, but I always have them for
      > >shortening. Sold about 80 shortened sets so far this year to
      > >triathletes.
      > >
      > > $159 + S & H includes GXP external BB.
      > >
      > >Sent from my iPad (As if that's still supposed to impress anyone :-)
      > >
      > >Mark Stonich Bikesmith Design
      > >612-824-2372
      > >
      > >5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis MN 55417
      > ><http://www.bikesmithdesign.com>www.bikesmithdesign.com
      > >
      > >On Oct 12, 2012, at 5:30 PM, "Bill 'Pedalnut' Taylor"
      > ><<mailto:pedalnut@...>pedalnut@...> wrote:
      > >
    • rons_hobbies
      Bill, I m 6 1 and also found 180mm made for a much more comfortable ridding experience. Ron ... ...
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 15, 2012
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        Bill, I'm 6'1" and also found 180mm made for a much more comfortable ridding experience.

        Ron

        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Bill 'Pedalnut' Taylor <pedalnut@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Mark,
        <Snip>
        > p.s. Why shorter cranks? I've found my 180 mm cranks much more
        > comfortable then my older, 175 mm cranks. I'm 6'2" with a 34 "
        > inseam on most pants, so perhaps this explains my preference for
        > longer cranks?
        >
        <Snip>
      • siphozg
        Hallo Mark, I was following the crank length story with interest. I have also seen the clip on you-tube about getting into a lower position. (?:-) I love to
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 15, 2012
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          Hallo Mark,

          I was following the crank length story with interest. I have also seen the clip on you-tube about getting into a lower position. (?:-)
          I love to work on my bicycles and always have a few old ones striped for spares etc… A few years back I striped my regular training bike for a proper after winter service. After about 4,000km of training, while sorting out spares, I noticed this mismatched 105 crank set, 175 arm 170 spider arm. Further investigating revealed that I have installed the other two on my training bike.
          If you seriously believe it make a difference then find what you believe is right, the truth is, unless you race the TDF, you will probably not notice the difference in performance between 180 and 170 cranks.
          The theory is shorter arms – higher cadence and longer arms more power.
          Enjoy the ride
          Sipho











          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "bikealfa" <mtwils@...> wrote:
          >
          > Mark -
          > I will re-iterate the question about why shorter cranks. I have read some of the tri stuff on the web about getting lower with shorter cranks, and posssibly higher power. But I am already pretty low on the tri bike, with a 5.5 inch drop from saddle to elbow pads.
          >
          > And can you do custom spiders? Not sure if it is worth it, but a 33 tooth small sprocket on a double is too big for me and I hate triples. There are a few other options - 94 bcd which is rare, my own custom 30t for a 110 bcd, and 2 offerings from Velo-Orange, but none seem like what I want. The VO 50.4 bcd is a very old standard and can take almost any sprocket but at this point custom or ebay is needed, and the other crank is just a 110/74 triple with a guard instead of an outer ring.
          >
          > Michael Wilson
          >
          > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Bill 'Pedalnut' Taylor <pedalnut@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Mark,
          > >
          > > Many thanks for this recommendation!
          > >
          > > If I can't find these cranks locally, then I'll probably in touch
          > > with you to order a set.
          > >
          > > Cheers,
          > >
          > > Bill
          > >
          > > p.s. Why shorter cranks? I've found my 180 mm cranks much more
          > > comfortable then my older, 175 mm cranks. I'm 6'2" with a 34 "
          > > inseam on most pants, so perhaps this explains my preference for
          > > longer cranks?
          > >
          > > At 9:06 PM -0500 10/12/12, Mark Stonich wrote:
          > > >SRAM Apex are available in 180mm in both road and compact double
          > > >configurations. Few stock 180s, but I always have them for
          > > >shortening. Sold about 80 shortened sets so far this year to
          > > >triathletes.
          > > >
          > > > $159 + S & H includes GXP external BB.
          > > >
          > > >Sent from my iPad (As if that's still supposed to impress anyone :-)
          > > >
          > > >Mark Stonich Bikesmith Design
          > > >612-824-2372
          > > >
          > > >5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis MN 55417
          > > ><http://www.bikesmithdesign.com>www.bikesmithdesign.com
          > > >
          > > >On Oct 12, 2012, at 5:30 PM, "Bill 'Pedalnut' Taylor"
          > > ><<mailto:pedalnut@>pedalnut@> wrote:
          > > >
          >
        • Rick Paulos
          I have a very tall friend, like 7 feet. He tried his best to keep up with us when we were young and racing but it made all the difference in the world when we
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 15, 2012
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            I have a very tall friend, like 7 feet. He tried
            his best to keep up with us when we were young
            and racing but it made all the difference in the
            world when we finally got him on 180 mm
            cranks. He went from struggling to a climbing machine overnight.
            Try riding a childs bike with 4" or 5" cranks to
            get the full effect of having too-short crank arms for your leg length.
            Or a bmx racing bike with 185mm cranks. It gets
            me how those kids can ride when the crank is so
            long, their knee caps hit their chins.

            A longer crank gets you more leverage but does mean lower rpms.

            Power = rpm * torque.

            A longer crank also lowers your feet so you need
            to adjust your seat down a similar amount.

            Your ideal crank arm length is based on your leg
            dimensions and where you ride.
            (hills/flats). There are some formulas out
            there. One of the old school USA frame builders
            was building a data base of leg sizes vs crank
            sizes (and other frame dimensions.) Don't remember who.

            rick

            At 08:08 AM 10/15/2012, you wrote:
            >
            >
            >Hallo Mark,
            >
            >I was following the crank length story with
            >interest. I have also seen the clip on you-tube
            >about getting into a lower position. (?:-)
            >I love to work on my bicycles and always have a
            >few old ones striped for spares etc… A few years
            >back I striped my regular training bike for a
            >proper after winter service. After about 4,000km
            >of training, while sorting out spares, I noticed
            >this mismatched 105 crank set, 175 arm 170
            >spider arm. Further investigating revealed that
            >I have installed the other two on my training bike.
            >If you seriously believe it make a difference
            >then find what you believe is right, the truth
            >is, unless you race the TDF, you will probably
            >not notice the difference in performance between 180 and 170 cranks.
            >The theory is shorter arms – higher cadence and longer arms more power.
            >Enjoy the ride
            >Sipho
            >
            >--- In
            ><mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com,
            >"bikealfa" <mtwils@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Mark -
            > > I will re-iterate the question about why
            > shorter cranks. I have read some of the tri
            > stuff on the web about getting lower with
            > shorter cranks, and posssibly higher power. But
            > I am already pretty low on the tri bike, with a
            > 5.5 inch drop from saddle to elbow pads.
            > >
            > > And can you do custom spiders? Not sure if it
            > is worth it, but a 33 tooth small sprocket on a
            > double is too big for me and I hate triples.
            > There are a few other options - 94 bcd which is
            > rare, my own custom 30t for a 110 bcd, and 2
            > offerings from Velo-Orange, but none seem like
            > what I want. The VO 50.4 bcd is a very old
            > standard and can take almost any sprocket but
            > at this point custom or ebay is needed, and the
            > other crank is just a 110/74 triple with a guard instead of an outer ring.
            > >
            > > Michael Wilson
            > >
            > > --- In
            > <mailto:Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com,
            > Bill 'Pedalnut' Taylor <pedalnut@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi Mark,
            > > >
            > > > Many thanks for this recommendation!
            > > >
            > > > If I can't find these cranks locally, then I'll probably in touch
            > > > with you to order a set.
            > > >
            > > > Cheers,
            > > >
            > > > Bill
            > > >
            > > > p.s. Why shorter cranks? I've found my 180 mm cranks much more
            > > > comfortable then my older, 175 mm cranks. I'm 6'2" with a 34 "
            > > > inseam on most pants, so perhaps this explains my preference for
            > > > longer cranks?
            > > >
            > > > At 9:06 PM -0500 10/12/12, Mark Stonich wrote:
            > > > >SRAM Apex are available in 180mm in both road and compact double
            > > > >configurations. Few stock 180s, but I always have them for
            > > > >shortening. Sold about 80 shortened sets so far this year to
            > > > >triathletes.
            > > > >
            > > > > $159 + S & H includes GXP external BB.
            > > > >
            > > > >Sent from my iPad (As if that's still supposed to impress anyone :-)
            > > > >
            > > > >Mark Stonich Bikesmith Design
            > > > >612-824-2372
            > > > >
            > > > >5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis MN 55417
            > > > ><<http://www.bikesmithdesign.com>http://www
            > .bikesmithdesign.com>www.bikesmithdesign.com
            > > > >
            > > > >On Oct 12, 2012, at 5:30 PM, "Bill 'Pedalnut' Taylor"
            > > > ><<mailto:pedalnut@>pedalnut@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > >
            >
            >
          • Colin Bryant
            Generally shorter cranks for shorter legs.  The idea is that the knee should be bent at about right angles, at the top of the pedal stroke.   -- Colin Bryant
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 15, 2012
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              Generally shorter cranks for shorter legs.  The idea is that the knee should be bent at about right angles, at the top of the pedal stroke.
               
              --

              Colin Bryant
              Vancouver, Canada

               


              From: bikealfa <mtwils@...>
              To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 7:32:27 PM
              Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: crank mods, was 180MM cranks, for Alfine 11 group-set?

               
              Mark -
              I will re-iterate the question about why shorter cranks. I have read some of the tri stuff on the web about getting lower with shorter cranks, and posssibly higher power. But I am already pretty low on the tri bike, with a 5.5 inch drop from saddle to elbow pads.

              And can you do custom spiders? Not sure if it is worth it, but a 33 tooth small sprocket on a double is too big for me and I hate triples. There are a few other options - 94 bcd which is rare, my own custom 30t for a 110 bcd, and 2 offerings from Velo-Orange, but none seem like what I want. The VO 50.4 bcd is a very old standard and can take almost any sprocket but at this point custom or ebay is needed, and the other crank is just a 110/74 triple with a guard instead of an outer ring.

              Michael Wilson

              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Bill 'Pedalnut' Taylor <pedalnut@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Mark,
              >
              > Many thanks for this recommendation!
              >
              > If I can't find these cranks locally, then I'll probably in touch
              > with you to order a set.
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Bill
              >
              > p.s. Why shorter cranks? I've found my 180 mm cranks much more
              > comfortable then my older, 175 mm cranks. I'm 6'2" with a 34 "
              > inseam on most pants, so perhaps this explains my preference for
              > longer cranks?
              >
              > At 9:06 PM -0500 10/12/12, Mark Stonich wrote:
              > >SRAM Apex are available in 180mm in both road and compact double
              > >configurations. Few stock 180s, but I always have them for
              > >shortening. Sold about 80 shortened sets so far this year to
              > >triathletes.
              > >
              > > $159 + S & H includes GXP external BB.
              > >
              > >Sent from my iPad (As if that's still supposed to impress anyone :-)
              > >
              > >Mark Stonich Bikesmith Design
              > >612-824-2372
              > >
              > >5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis MN 55417
              > ><http://www.bikesmithdesign.com>www.bikesmithdesign.com
              > >
              > >On Oct 12, 2012, at 5:30 PM, "Bill 'Pedalnut' Taylor"
              > ><<mailto:pedalnut@...>pedalnut@...> wrote:
              > >



            • Mark Stonich
              ... Sorry not to have replied sooner but I ve been too busy to check the various forums more than once a week. ... I m working on an explanation of why
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 19, 2012
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                On 10/14/12 9:32 PM, bikealfa wrote:
                 

                Mark -
                I will re-iterate the question about why shorter cranks.

                Sorry not to have replied sooner but I've been too busy to check the various forums more than once a week.

                I have read some of the tri stuff on the web about getting lower with shorter cranks, and posssibly higher power. But I am already pretty low on the tri bike, with a 5.5 inch drop from saddle to elbow pads.

                I'm working on an explanation of why standard length cranks slow SOME people down, especially triathletes.  It's a very complex topic but I'll post here when I finish.

                And can you do custom spiders?

                I've done adapters but I don't think they are what you need.

                Not sure if it is worth it, but a 33 tooth small sprocket on a double is too big for me and I hate triples.

                I have some older Stronglight and SR cranks in VGC with 86mm BCDs that will take a small ring of 28t.  Replacememt rings are no longer available but I have quite a stash.  Since these can't be shortened I'd like to sell them.

                There are a few other options - 94 bcd which is rare,

                Not that rare, QBP has 94 BCD rings from 6 makers. ranging from a 29t FSA to a 46t Dimension.
                 BTW I have a170mm 
                94 BCD SunTour XC Comp right arm, unused but shopworn, that I'd sell for $10 + S&H.  I don't have a left, but if you have something similar it could be a solution.

                my own custom 30t for a 110 bcd,

                Must be nearly pentagonal.  Or did you get really imaginative with the bolts?

                and 2 offerings from Velo-Orange, but none seem like what I want. The VO 50.4 bcd is a very old standard and can take almost any sprocket but at this point custom or ebay is needed, and the other crank is just a 110/74 triple with a guard instead of an outer ring.

                Half of  of my non-IGH bikes have triples and I love them.  But we also have several ultra-compact doubles which are just triples w/o the outer ring.  I don't usually use guards in the 3rd position.  But my wife has a phobia about dropping chains, so on her only non-IGH bike she has Guard/24/34/Guard.  The inner guard is a de-toothed 32t 74mm BCD ring. 


                Michael Wilson--


                Mark Stonich; BikeSmith Design & Fabrication 5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA Ph. (612) 824-2372 http://bikesmithdesign.com

              • Michael Wilson
                Mark - I will buy the SunTour XC 94 bcd right arm. Please send details. I happen to have a left arm; I bought a pair for the bichain which uses a tandem left
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 20, 2012
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                  Mark -
                  I will buy the SunTour XC 94 bcd right arm. Please send details. I
                  happen to have a left arm; I bought a pair for the bichain which uses
                  a tandem left crank (oddly enough the Sakae left arm is drilled for a
                  triple). I never had an availability issue with 5 bolt 94bcd
                  sprockets; it is cranks. Note that new 94bcd cranks are 4 bolt, I
                  believe the FSA 29 t for example is a 4 bolt sprocket.

                  The 30 tooth on 110 bcd cranks is a custom set of mounting hardware,
                  4mm diameter flat head bolts on 105 mm bcd, and a remachined Sugino
                  30t 74bcd. Slight filing of the spider is needed for chain clearance.
                  This violates my idea that you only machine what you cannot buy, but
                  it allowed me to put 30-47 on the 415gram claviculas, and will allow a
                  30-xx on a power meter and also allow me to update my Bob Jackson
                  without buying new cranks, and I like the way that bike works.

                  The SR 86 bcd is intriguinig. What sprockets do you have etc.? But
                  the goal is to avoid custom and unobtanium rings. I can do custom
                  tripleizers and do a 24-38 on old road 130bcd cranks if I want to go
                  that route. Also I have broken several Stronglight cranks, so I will
                  pass on those.

                  I have become addicted to narrow-Q cranks. My ASC bike on a
                  bent-head-tube Phillips frame has a Q of about 124 mm. So I avoid the
                  inner-two-chainrings-of-a-triple setups, despite that being an easy
                  solution.

                  I think I understand some of the short crank stuff, but I will await
                  your writeup. I am interested because my knees are not as flexible as
                  they used to be, and my left leg is now 8 mm shorter than the right
                  after being brake-tested by a dog. The flip side is that one of my
                  recurring nightmares used to be being stuck on a bike with very short
                  cranks (no this is not a joke; I had forgotten until this email thread
                  happened).

                  Michael Wilson
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