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Unconventional drive: 2WD

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  • pj
    Shown @ Interbike: the Tettra 2WD bike: pj
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 23, 2012
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    • Colin Bryant
      Ignoring the necessity, of two wheel drive, why didn t they just use a twisted chain drive, like some front wheel drive recumbents use?  It also desperately
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 23, 2012
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        Ignoring the necessity, of two wheel drive, why didn't they just use a "twisted" chain drive, like some front wheel drive recumbents use?  It also desperately needs a front fender, since that intermediate chain is right in the firing line.
         
        --

        Colin Bryant
        Vancouver, Canada

         


        From: pj <prester_john_in_cathay@...>
        To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 3:51:16 AM
        Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Unconventional drive: 2WD



      • pj
        More at BikeRumor: pj
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 23, 2012
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        • jim
          As a curiosity I d love to try it, but I sure wouldn t buy stock in their company. The chain is my least favorite part of the bicycle and with my bulk onboard
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 23, 2012
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            As a curiosity I'd love to try it, but I sure wouldn't buy stock in their company. The chain is my least favorite part of the bicycle and with my bulk onboard traction is not an issue.
            I would think whatever gained in climbing on loose trails would be offset by the disadvantage of the extra weight.  Maybe cargo bikes would benefit from AWD?
             
             
            Jim / so. fla.
            ===

            From: pj <prester_john_in_cathay@...>
            To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 3:49 PM
            Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Unconventional drive: 2WD

             
            More at BikeRumor:

            <http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/09/17/found-tretta-2wd-bicycles-all-wheel-drive-road-mountain-cruiser-bikes/>

            pj



          • Rich W
            I suspoect that this is another bicycle power train idea which will quickly vanish like many others have. All wheel drive (AWD) is excellent for low traction
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 24, 2012
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              I suspoect that this is another bicycle power train idea which will quickly vanish like many others have. All wheel drive (AWD) is excellent for low traction situations such as very steep terrain or in mud or icy conditions. The only even reasonably successful AWD two wheeler ever made that I am aware of was the Rokon Trailbreaker utility motorcycle. It had very wide low pressure tires with a very agressive tread and was geared such that it could climb anything it could get adequate traction on. Production lasted 10 years or so. It was designed with a low saddle so that at low speeds the rider could use his legs as outriggers for added stability.

              A AWD bicycle cannot be geared low enough to provide adequate power for truly steep terrain while still moving fast enough to provide any rider stability so will be unrideable for most riders in steep terrain, unless they are experienced trials riders. As for ice use, studded tires serve normal bikes for such riding now. The kind of mud that needs AWD runs into gearing and rider power output limitations again I would think. I human power is just not enough for a truly useful AWD bicycle IMO.

              Rich Wood


              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, jim <jimbofla1138@...> wrote:
              >
              > As a curiosity I'd love to try it, but I sure wouldn't buy stock in their company. The chain is my least favorite part of the bicycle and with my bulk onboard traction is not an issue.
              > I would think whatever gained in climbing on loose trails would be offset by the disadvantage of the extra weight.  Maybe cargo bikes would benefit from AWD?
              >  
              >  
              > Jim / so. fla. ===
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: pj <prester_john_in_cathay@...>
              > To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 3:49 PM
              > Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Unconventional drive: 2WD
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              > More at BikeRumor:
              >
              > <http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/09/17/found-tretta-2wd-bicycles-all-wheel-drive-road-mountain-cruiser-bikes/>
              >
              > pj
              >
            • Keanu
              Might 2WD be relevant for use in biketrial? ... Might 2WD be relevant for use in biketrial? On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 5:15 PM, Rich W
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 24, 2012
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                Might 2WD be relevant for use in biketrial?



                On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 5:15 PM, Rich W <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                 

                I suspoect that this is another bicycle power train idea which will quickly vanish like many others have. All wheel drive (AWD) is excellent for low traction situations such as very steep terrain or in mud or icy conditions. The only even reasonably successful AWD two wheeler ever made that I am aware of was the Rokon Trailbreaker utility motorcycle. It had very wide low pressure tires with a very agressive tread and was geared such that it could climb anything it could get adequate traction on. Production lasted 10 years or so. It was designed with a low saddle so that at low speeds the rider could use his legs as outriggers for added stability.

                A AWD bicycle cannot be geared low enough to provide adequate power for truly steep terrain while still moving fast enough to provide any rider stability so will be unrideable for most riders in steep terrain, unless they are experienced trials riders. As for ice use, studded tires serve normal bikes for such riding now. The kind of mud that needs AWD runs into gearing and rider power output limitations again I would think. I human power is just not enough for a truly useful AWD bicycle IMO.

                Rich Wood

                --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, jim <jimbofla1138@...> wrote:
                >
                > As a curiosity I'd love to try it, but I sure wouldn't buy stock in their company. The chain is my least favorite part of the bicycle and with my bulk onboard traction is not an issue.
                > I would think whatever gained in climbing on loose trails would be offset by the disadvantage of the extra weight.  Maybe cargo bikes would benefit from AWD?
                >  
                >  


                > Jim / so. fla. ===
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: pj <prester_john_in_cathay@...>

                > To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 3:49 PM
                > Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Unconventional drive: 2WD
                >
                >
                >
                >  


              • Rich W
                From the photos I have seen trials bicycles are basically the lightest MTBs, without rear suspension, that are made. Not sure of front end geometry but trials
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 24, 2012
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                  From the photos I have seen trials bicycles are basically the lightest MTBs, without rear suspension, that are made. Not sure of front end geometry but trials motorcycles are also built for the lowest possible weight and have front end geometry designed for quick handling.

                  I would be willing to bet that if not already forbidden by competition rules the attempted introduction of AWD trials bikes or motorcycles would quickly be outlawed, particularly if they succeeded. Observed Trials is normally considered to be more a test of rider skill than equipment performance.

                  After all look at the various weight minimums and aerodynamic restrictions enforced on track bike and road racing equipment by the international bike racing rules makers. A road racing or track bike could be multiple pounds lighter than current rules allow so the racers add power meters and other accessories to bring the bikes up to minimum weight limits. Also there are restrictions on riding positions and handlebars for both road and track racing.

                  A classic example of hidebound rules making IMO is the outlawing of any form of recumbent bicycles from all forms of world cycling competition since well before WWII. The ban was done after a recumbent broke several track cycling records in the 1930s IIRC.

                  as another example in motorcycle road racing competition the "Dustbin" fairing has been outlawed since about 1957 as I recall. Moto Guzzi used it with great success prior to the banning.

                  Be interesting to see what form the bicycle would have if there were no equipment restrictions for competition bicycles. The street bike has historically been strongly influenced by the rules enforced for competition versions.

                  Rich Wood


                  --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Keanu <keanu89@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Might 2WD be relevant for use in biketrial?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 5:15 PM, Rich W <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I suspoect that this is another bicycle power train idea which will
                  > > quickly vanish like many others have. All wheel drive (AWD) is excellent
                  > > for low traction situations such as very steep terrain or in mud or icy
                  > > conditions. The only even reasonably successful AWD two wheeler ever made
                  > > that I am aware of was the Rokon Trailbreaker utility motorcycle. It had
                  > > very wide low pressure tires with a very agressive tread and was geared
                  > > such that it could climb anything it could get adequate traction on.
                  > > Production lasted 10 years or so. It was designed with a low saddle so that
                  > > at low speeds the rider could use his legs as outriggers for added
                  > > stability.
                  > >
                  > > A AWD bicycle cannot be geared low enough to provide adequate power for
                  > > truly steep terrain while still moving fast enough to provide any rider
                  > > stability so will be unrideable for most riders in steep terrain, unless
                  > > they are experienced trials riders. As for ice use, studded tires serve
                  > > normal bikes for such riding now. The kind of mud that needs AWD runs into
                  > > gearing and rider power output limitations again I would think. I human
                  > > power is just not enough for a truly useful AWD bicycle IMO.
                  > >
                  > > Rich Wood
                  > >
                  > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, jim <jimbofla1138@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > As a curiosity I'd love to try it, but IÂ sure wouldn't buy stock in
                  > > their company. The chain is my least favorite part of the bicycle and with
                  > > my bulk onboard traction is not an issue.
                  > > > I would think whatever gained in climbing on loose trails would be
                  > > offset by the disadvantage of the extra weight. Maybe cargo bikes would
                  > > benefit from AWD?
                  > > > Â
                  > > > Â
                  > >
                  > > > Jim / so. fla. ===
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ________________________________
                  > > > From: pj <prester_john_in_cathay@>
                  > >
                  > > > To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 3:49 PM
                  > > > Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Unconventional drive: 2WD
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Â
                  > > >
                  > > > More at BikeRumor:
                  > > >
                  > > > <
                  > > http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/09/17/found-tretta-2wd-bicycles-all-wheel-drive-road-mountain-cruiser-bikes/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > pj
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Andrew Curl
                  I just plain don t like the look of the things, but as they started to take records, you will notice that you don t see any Moultons in the Tour de France,
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 24, 2012
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                    I just plain don't like the look of the things, but as they started to take records, you will notice that you don't see any Moultons in the Tour de France, either. Left to the rule makers and "governing bodies" I'm sure we'd all still be riding penny-farthings (ordinaries) today.
                     
                    What I think the World is ready for is an IGH velocipede. How could that -fail- to win favour in off-road circles, for a start?
                     
                    -Andrew UK
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Rich W
                    Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 8:57 PM
                    Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Unconventional drive: 2WD

                     

                    From the photos I have seen trials bicycles are basically the lightest MTBs, without rear suspension, that are made. Not sure of front end geometry but trials motorcycles are also built for the lowest possible weight and have front end geometry designed for quick handling.

                    I would be willing to bet that if not already forbidden by competition rules the attempted introduction of AWD trials bikes or motorcycles would quickly be outlawed, particularly if they succeeded. Observed Trials is normally considered to be more a test of rider skill than equipment performance.

                    After all look at the various weight minimums and aerodynamic restrictions enforced on track bike and road racing equipment by the international bike racing rules makers. A road racing or track bike could be multiple pounds lighter than current rules allow so the racers add power meters and other accessories to bring the bikes up to minimum weight limits. Also there are restrictions on riding positions and handlebars for both road and track racing.

                    A classic example of hidebound rules making IMO is the outlawing of any form of recumbent bicycles from all forms of world cycling competition since well before WWII. The ban was done after a recumbent broke several track cycling records in the 1930s IIRC.

                    as another example in motorcycle road racing competition the "Dustbin" fairing has been outlawed since about 1957 as I recall. Moto Guzzi used it with great success prior to the banning.

                    Be interesting to see what form the bicycle would have if there were no equipment restrictions for competition bicycles. The street bike has historically been strongly influenced by the rules enforced for competition versions.

                    Rich Wood

                    --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Keanu <keanu89@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Might 2WD be relevant for use in biketrial?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 5:15 PM, Rich W <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I suspoect that this is another bicycle power train idea which will
                    > > quickly vanish like many others have. All wheel drive (AWD) is excellent
                    > > for low traction situations such as very steep terrain or in mud or icy
                    > > conditions. The only even reasonably successful AWD two wheeler ever made
                    > > that I am aware of was the Rokon Trailbreaker utility motorcycle. It had
                    > > very wide low pressure tires with a very agressive tread and was geared
                    > > such that it could climb anything it could get adequate traction on.
                    > > Production lasted 10 years or so. It was designed with a low saddle so that
                    > > at low speeds the rider could use his legs as outriggers for added
                    > > stability.
                    > >
                    > > A AWD bicycle cannot be geared low enough to provide adequate power for
                    > > truly steep terrain while still moving fast enough to provide any rider
                    > > stability so will be unrideable for most riders in steep terrain, unless
                    > > they are experienced trials riders. As for ice use, studded tires serve
                    > > normal bikes for such riding now. The kind of mud that needs AWD runs into
                    > > gearing and rider power output limitations again I would think. I human
                    > > power is just not enough for a truly useful AWD bicycle IMO.
                    > >
                    > > Rich Wood
                    > >
                    > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, jim <jimbofla1138@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > As a curiosity I'd love to try it, but IÂ sure wouldn't buy stock in
                    > > their company. The chain is my least favorite part of the bicycle and with
                    > > my bulk onboard traction is not an issue.
                    > > > I would think whatever gained in climbing on loose trails would be
                    > > offset by the disadvantage of the extra weight. Maybe cargo bikes would
                    > > benefit from AWD?
                    > > > Â
                    > > > Â
                    > >
                    > > > Jim / so. fla. ===
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ________________________________
                    > > > From: pj <prester_john_in_cathay@>
                    > >
                    > > > To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 3:49 PM
                    > > > Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Unconventional drive: 2WD
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Â
                    > > >
                    > > > More at BikeRumor:
                    > > >
                    > > > <
                    > > http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/09/17/found-tretta-2wd-bicycles-all-wheel-drive-road-mountain-cruiser-bikes/
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > pj
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >

                  • Andrew Curl
                    I must add that I first heard the term velocipede was in conjunction with a bevel geared bicycle in the London Science Museum; bevel geared with a shaft
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 24, 2012
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                      I must add that I first heard the term "velocipede" was in conjunction with a bevel geared bicycle in the London Science Museum; bevel geared with a shaft drive running through what we'd usually refer to as the chain stay. (But of course with no chain at all...)
                       
                      Even the Science Museum makes mistakes- They have had a very pretty, chromium plated, exploded 4 speed SA FW hub there for as long as I can remember, labelled up as a three speed...
                       
                      -Andrew UK
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 12:08 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Unconventional drive: 2WD

                       

                      I just plain don't like the look of the things, but as they started to take records, you will notice that you don't see any Moultons in the Tour de France, either. Left to the rule makers and "governing bodies" I'm sure we'd all still be riding penny-farthings (ordinaries) today.
                       
                      What I think the World is ready for is an IGH velocipede. How could that -fail- to win favour in off-road circles, for a start?
                       
                      -Andrew UK
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Rich W
                      Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 8:57 PM
                      Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Unconventional drive: 2WD

                       

                      From the photos I have seen trials bicycles are basically the lightest MTBs, without rear suspension, that are made. Not sure of front end geometry but trials motorcycles are also built for the lowest possible weight and have front end geometry designed for quick handling.

                      I would be willing to bet that if not already forbidden by competition rules the attempted introduction of AWD trials bikes or motorcycles would quickly be outlawed, particularly if they succeeded. Observed Trials is normally considered to be more a test of rider skill than equipment performance.

                      After all look at the various weight minimums and aerodynamic restrictions enforced on track bike and road racing equipment by the international bike racing rules makers. A road racing or track bike could be multiple pounds lighter than current rules allow so the racers add power meters and other accessories to bring the bikes up to minimum weight limits. Also there are restrictions on riding positions and handlebars for both road and track racing.

                      A classic example of hidebound rules making IMO is the outlawing of any form of recumbent bicycles from all forms of world cycling competition since well before WWII. The ban was done after a recumbent broke several track cycling records in the 1930s IIRC.

                      as another example in motorcycle road racing competition the "Dustbin" fairing has been outlawed since about 1957 as I recall. Moto Guzzi used it with great success prior to the banning.

                      Be interesting to see what form the bicycle would have if there were no equipment restrictions for competition bicycles. The street bike has historically been strongly influenced by the rules enforced for competition versions.

                      Rich Wood

                      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Keanu <keanu89@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Might 2WD be relevant for use in biketrial?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 5:15 PM, Rich W <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > **
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I suspoect that this is another bicycle power train idea which will
                      > > quickly vanish like many others have. All wheel drive (AWD) is excellent
                      > > for low traction situations such as very steep terrain or in mud or icy
                      > > conditions. The only even reasonably successful AWD two wheeler ever made
                      > > that I am aware of was the Rokon Trailbreaker utility motorcycle. It had
                      > > very wide low pressure tires with a very agressive tread and was geared
                      > > such that it could climb anything it could get adequate traction on.
                      > > Production lasted 10 years or so. It was designed with a low saddle so that
                      > > at low speeds the rider could use his legs as outriggers for added
                      > > stability.
                      > >
                      > > A AWD bicycle cannot be geared low enough to provide adequate power for
                      > > truly steep terrain while still moving fast enough to provide any rider
                      > > stability so will be unrideable for most riders in steep terrain, unless
                      > > they are experienced trials riders. As for ice use, studded tires serve
                      > > normal bikes for such riding now. The kind of mud that needs AWD runs into
                      > > gearing and rider power output limitations again I would think. I human
                      > > power is just not enough for a truly useful AWD bicycle IMO.
                      > >
                      > > Rich Wood
                      > >
                      > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, jim <jimbofla1138@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > As a curiosity I'd love to try it, but IÂ sure wouldn't buy stock in
                      > > their company. The chain is my least favorite part of the bicycle and with
                      > > my bulk onboard traction is not an issue.
                      > > > I would think whatever gained in climbing on loose trails would be
                      > > offset by the disadvantage of the extra weight. Maybe cargo bikes would
                      > > benefit from AWD?
                      > > > Â
                      > > > Â
                      > >
                      > > > Jim / so. fla. ===
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ________________________________
                      > > > From: pj <prester_john_in_cathay@>
                      > >
                      > > > To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 3:49 PM
                      > > > Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Unconventional drive: 2WD
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Â
                      > > >
                      > > > More at BikeRumor:
                      > > >
                      > > > <
                      > > http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/09/17/found-tretta-2wd-bicycles-all-wheel-drive-road-mountain-cruiser-bikes/
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > pj
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >

                    • pj
                      ... IGHs were also banned from continental mass start bicycle racing beginning in the 1910s, so I guess they disappeared, too. Uh, except they didn t. I
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 24, 2012
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                        > A classic example of hidebound rules making IMO is the
                        > outlawing of any form of recumbent bicycles from all forms
                        > of world cycling competition since well before WWII. The ban
                        > was done after a recumbent broke several track cycling records
                        > in the 1930s IIRC.

                        IGHs were also banned from continental mass start bicycle racing beginning in the 1910s, so I guess they disappeared, too. Uh, except they didn't. I suggest reading "Files - History - IGHs in the 1930s' to get a glimpse that most of the world's bicycle racing didn't (and still doesn't) care what the UCI rules are.

                        The 'everybody would be on a recumbent today if the UCI hadn't restricted them in the 1934' factoid was part of a marketing pitch dreamed up by a couple of American recumbent manufacturers in the late 1970s. It played pretty well to the largely ignorant, enthusiastic U.S. ten-speed riders of the day. If one knows anything about bicycle history, technology, usage and the large percent of 'racing' that takes place throughout the world entirely outside of UCI control, the myth just doesn't hold up.

                        pj
                      • David Dannenberg
                        Rokon is still around. Very cool machines: http://www.rokon.com/
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 25, 2012
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                          Rokon is still around. Very cool machines: http://www.rokon.com/
                        • bikealfa
                          The UCI rules matter in that the manufacturers put some effort into compliance, and development money for non-compliant racing products may be less. Triathlon
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 25, 2012
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                            The UCI rules matter in that the manufacturers put some effort into compliance, and development money for non-compliant racing products may be less. Triathlon stuff for example does not follow UCI but it is not open, there is another set of rules. There is development money for that, but again it is not open. If you want to build by buying stuff rather than machining or molding on your own, you are dependant on what other people are willing to fund.


                            Michael Wilson

                            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "pj" <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > A classic example of hidebound rules making IMO is the
                            > > outlawing of any form of recumbent bicycles from all forms
                            > > of world cycling competition since well before WWII. The ban
                            > > was done after a recumbent broke several track cycling records
                            > > in the 1930s IIRC.
                            >
                            > IGHs were also banned from continental mass start bicycle racing beginning in the 1910s, so I guess they disappeared, too. Uh, except they didn't. I suggest reading "Files - History - IGHs in the 1930s' to get a glimpse that most of the world's bicycle racing didn't (and still doesn't) care what the UCI rules are.
                            >
                            > The 'everybody would be on a recumbent today if the UCI hadn't restricted them in the 1934' factoid was part of a marketing pitch dreamed up by a couple of American recumbent manufacturers in the late 1970s. It played pretty well to the largely ignorant, enthusiastic U.S. ten-speed riders of the day. If one knows anything about bicycle history, technology, usage and the large percent of 'racing' that takes place throughout the world entirely outside of UCI control, the myth just doesn't hold up.
                            >
                            > pj
                            >
                          • Rich W
                            PJ; IIRC all forms of gearing changes other than flipping rear wheels with two rear sprockets were banned for a long time and the TDF had its own restrictions
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 25, 2012
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                              PJ;

                              IIRC all forms of gearing changes other than flipping rear wheels with two rear sprockets were banned for a long time and the TDF had its own restrictions per my understanding. Mass start road competition was banned in Britain till after WW2 IIRC and they did allow iGHs in their time trials I believe. The IGH was too useful for utility bikes to die, plus SA was part of about the worlds largest bicycle manufacturer, Raleigh.

                              Hard to determine what might have been but I am really curious as to what the 'standard" bicycle would be today if there had not been any equipment limitations, other than no engines, placed on competition bikes throughout history.

                              Rich Wood

                              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "pj" <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > A classic example of hidebound rules making IMO is the
                              > > outlawing of any form of recumbent bicycles from all forms
                              > > of world cycling competition since well before WWII. The ban
                              > > was done after a recumbent broke several track cycling records
                              > > in the 1930s IIRC.
                              >
                              > IGHs were also banned from continental mass start bicycle racing beginning in the 1910s, so I guess they disappeared, too. Uh, except they didn't. I suggest reading "Files - History - IGHs in the 1930s' to get a glimpse that most of the world's bicycle racing didn't (and still doesn't) care what the UCI rules are.
                              >
                              > The 'everybody would be on a recumbent today if the UCI hadn't restricted them in the 1934' factoid was part of a marketing pitch dreamed up by a couple of American recumbent manufacturers in the late 1970s. It played pretty well to the largely ignorant, enthusiastic U.S. ten-speed riders of the day. If one knows anything about bicycle history, technology, usage and the large percent of 'racing' that takes place throughout the world entirely outside of UCI control, the myth just doesn't hold up.
                              >
                              > pj
                              >
                            • John Harvey
                              Regarding the What would bikes be like if there had been no restrictions on the racing world? question. I think we can find parallels in the auto racing
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 25, 2012
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                                Regarding the "What would bikes be like if there had been no restrictions on the racing world?" question.  I think we can find parallels in the auto racing world.  In those race series where almost anything was allowed the race vehicles quickly became very different than the autos one could buy in stores.  The race owners soon found they had a money problem, many of the sponsors wanted cars/vehicles that at least pretended to be a bit like the cars customers could actually buy.  So some racing forms developed that were based on stock cars and others were unlimited.  The unlimited race series do drive the occasional new technology into the mainstream, but more often it is stock based race series which refine technologies.

                                My guess is bikes would be pretty similar to what they are today with a slightly larger contingent using recumbents as they would be more available.  However, I doubt many people would ride recumbents as the traditional DF bike (in all of its very numerous varieties) has a lot of logical appeal to the average person.  The upright position works well from a balance and control standpoint, as well as the cost of production.

                                I really like my tadpole recumbent trike with a Schlumpf HSD in front and Nexus Inter 7 in the rear - but the cost/benefit equation is pretty crappy on it compared to a "regular" bike in most peoples' judgement.  I bought it cheap, on sale and then upgraded the parts through buying used/closeout pieces on ebay and in some cases fabricating my own.  To get a similar thing from a factory would cost about about 2.5 times what I would have been willing to pay.  For the average person shopping for a traditional bike the price differential would be even more extreme.  I initially looked into getting a tadpole trike because riding a traditional bike really hurts my lower back.  I just won't do it.  I've found lots of nice things in addition to that health benefit since then, but for your average buyer the cost is going to be a total and complete show stopper.
                              • Rich W
                                As it currently is recumbents are a limited production specialty item, raising the cost. If a mass marketeer such as Huffy had built them in quantity
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 25, 2012
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                                  As it currently is recumbents are a limited production specialty item, raising the cost. If a mass marketeer such as Huffy had built them in quantity production then the price could be lowered by a LOT! I am not aware of any attempts at true mass production of recumbents though.

                                  Be interesting to know what the track hour record distance would be if recumbent track bikes were legal. That is where they were originally banned from competition. If legal in road racing would there be recumbents used for flat stages and most time trials and upright frames used for mountain stages? IMO it would be interesting to observe.

                                  Rich Wood

                                  --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, John Harvey <jsharvey1961@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Regarding the "What would bikes be like if there had been no restrictions on the racing world?" question. I think we can find parallels in the auto racing world. In those race series where almost anything was allowed the race vehicles quickly became very different than the autos one could buy in stores. The race owners soon found they had a money problem, many of the sponsors wanted cars/vehicles that at least pretended to be a bit like the cars customers could actually buy. So some racing forms developed that were based on stock cars and others were unlimited. The unlimited race series do drive the occasional new technology into the mainstream, but more often it is stock based race series which refine technologies.
                                  >
                                  > My guess is bikes would be pretty similar to what they are today with a slightly larger contingent using recumbents as they would be more available. However, I doubt many people would ride recumbents as the traditional DF bike (in all of its very numerous varieties) has a lot of logical appeal to the average person. The upright position works well from a balance and control standpoint, as well as the cost of production.
                                  >
                                  > I really like my tadpole recumbent trike with a Schlumpf HSD in front and Nexus Inter 7 in the rear - but the cost/benefit equation is pretty crappy on it compared to a "regular" bike in most peoples' judgement. I bought it cheap, on sale and then upgraded the parts through buying used/closeout pieces on ebay and in some cases fabricating my own. To get a similar thing from a factory would cost about about 2.5 times what I would have been willing to pay. For the average person shopping for a traditional bike the price differential would be even more extreme. I initially looked into getting a tadpole trike because riding a traditional bike really hurts my lower back. I just won't do it. I've found lots of nice things in addition to that health benefit since then, but for your average buyer the cost is going to be a total and complete show stopper.
                                  >
                                • Alex Wetmore
                                  Trek and Cannondale have both made recumbents in the last decade. BikeE was probably the biggest attempt at a low cost recumbent (their cheapest model was
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 25, 2012
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                                    Trek and Cannondale have both made recumbents in the last decade. BikeE was probably the biggest attempt at a low cost recumbent (their cheapest model was around $400, similar to hybrids made with similar level equipment at the same time).

                                    Recumbents haven't really proven themselves on true endurance events such as RAAM, Cannonball, or brevets. None of these events are controlled by UCI regulations. If recumbents had a major performance advantage on average terrain (not just flat tracks) then they'd be more common and performing better in these events.

                                    alex (who has ridden thousands of miles on recumbents and is not a hater)
                                    ________________________________________
                                    From: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com [Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Rich W [astronut1001@...]
                                    Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 8:47 PM
                                    To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Unconventional drive: 2WD

                                    As it currently is recumbents are a limited production specialty item, raising the cost. If a mass marketeer such as Huffy had built them in quantity production then the price could be lowered by a LOT! I am not aware of any attempts at true mass production of recumbents though.

                                    Be interesting to know what the track hour record distance would be if recumbent track bikes were legal. That is where they were originally banned from competition. If legal in road racing would there be recumbents used for flat stages and most time trials and upright frames used for mountain stages? IMO it would be interesting to observe.

                                    Rich Wood

                                    --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, John Harvey <jsharvey1961@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Regarding the "What would bikes be like if there had been no restrictions on the racing world?" question. I think we can find parallels in the auto racing world. In those race series where almost anything was allowed the race vehicles quickly became very different than the autos one could buy in stores. The race owners soon found they had a money problem, many of the sponsors wanted cars/vehicles that at least pretended to be a bit like the cars customers could actually buy. So some racing forms developed that were based on stock cars and others were unlimited. The unlimited race series do drive the occasional new technology into the mainstream, but more often it is stock based race series which refine technologies.
                                    >
                                    > My guess is bikes would be pretty similar to what they are today with a slightly larger contingent using recumbents as they would be more available. However, I doubt many people would ride recumbents as the traditional DF bike (in all of its very numerous varieties) has a lot of logical appeal to the average person. The upright position works well from a balance and control standpoint, as well as the cost of production.
                                    >
                                    > I really like my tadpole recumbent trike with a Schlumpf HSD in front and Nexus Inter 7 in the rear - but the cost/benefit equation is pretty crappy on it compared to a "regular" bike in most peoples' judgement. I bought it cheap, on sale and then upgraded the parts through buying used/closeout pieces on ebay and in some cases fabricating my own. To get a similar thing from a factory would cost about about 2.5 times what I would have been willing to pay. For the average person shopping for a traditional bike the price differential would be even more extreme. I initially looked into getting a tadpole trike because riding a traditional bike really hurts my lower back. I just won't do it. I've found lots of nice things in addition to that health benefit since then, but for your average buyer the cost is going to be a total and complete show stopper.
                                    >




                                    ------------------------------------

                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  • dr2chase@mac.com
                                    ... This is still very puzzling, because the air resistance advantages ought to be substantial. I still remember the time I experimentally opened an umbrella
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 26, 2012
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                                      On 2012-09-25, at 11:51 PM, Alex Wetmore <alex@...> wrote:
                                      > Recumbents haven't really proven themselves on true endurance events such as RAAM, Cannonball, or brevets. None of these events are controlled by UCI regulations. If recumbents had a major performance advantage on average terrain (not just flat tracks) then they'd be more common and performing better in these events.

                                      This is still very puzzling, because the air resistance advantages ought to be substantial. I still remember the time I experimentally opened an umbrella while riding a bike and felt it get easier to pedal. Do we see fairings in any of these non-UCI events?

                                      David
                                    • David Dannenberg
                                      A friend sent me this. ... The website makes it sound like they work well and are available. I would like to see one in person. David Dannenberg
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 26, 2012
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                                        A friend sent me this. 

                                        Christini.  There is a company based in Philly that makes a 4" travel full suspension mtn bike with 2wd. Interesting idea, but after boat loads of testing, they never could determine that it was worthwhile because the gearing up front doesn't have enough torque to pull you through a slick section.  Here is their website.  They have been around a long time, but I have never seen one in person.
                                         

                                        The website makes it sound like they work well and are available. I would like to see one in person.

                                        David Dannenberg
                                      • John Harvey
                                        Now this one looks impressive to me. I m sure it costs quite a bit, but it makes a lot more sense than the weird chain driven one!
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 26, 2012
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                                          Now this one looks impressive to me.  I'm sure it costs quite a bit, but it makes a lot more sense than the weird chain driven one!

                                          __________________________________________________________________________________________________

                                          "A friend sent me this. 

                                          Christini.  There is a company based in Philly that makes a 4" travel full suspension mtn bike with 2wd. Interesting idea, but after boat loads of testing, they never could determine that it was worthwhile because the gearing up front doesn't have enough torque to pull you through a slick section.  Here is their website.  They have been around a long time, but I have never seen one in person.
                                           

                                          The website makes it sound like they work well and are available. I would like to see one in person.

                                          David Dannenberg"
                                        • Colin Bryant
                                          As a recumbent rider (I would barely consider the Cannondale or BikeE recumbents.) for the last two years (about 17,000km), I would say that the air resistance
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 26, 2012
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                                            As a recumbent rider (I would barely consider the Cannondale or BikeE recumbents.) for the last two years (about 17,000km), I would say that the air resistance advantages are significant.  Close to a road bike rider on the drops.  Unfortunately, the frame can't be triangulated very well, so they end up being heavier.
                                             
                                            --

                                            Colin Bryant
                                            Vancouver, Canada

                                             


                                            From: "dr2chase@..." <dr2chase@...>
                                            To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:09:14 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] Unconventional drive: 2WD

                                             

                                            On 2012-09-25, at 11:51 PM, Alex Wetmore <alex@...> wrote:
                                            > Recumbents haven't really proven themselves on true endurance events such as RAAM, Cannonball, or brevets. None of these events are controlled by UCI regulations. If recumbents had a major performance advantage on average terrain (not just flat tracks) then they'd be more common and performing better in these events.

                                            This is still very puzzling, because the air resistance advantages ought to be substantial. I still remember the time I experimentally opened an umbrella while riding a bike and felt it get easier to pedal. Do we see fairings in any of these non-UCI events?

                                            David



                                          • Alex Wetmore
                                            Yes, there are fairings at these events. The best recumbents are far more aerodynamic (and I agree with Colin that BikeE, Trek, and Cannondale didn t make
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Sep 26, 2012
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                                              Yes, there are fairings at these events.

                                              The best recumbents are far more aerodynamic (and I agree with Colin that BikeE, Trek, and Cannondale didn't make performance recumbents, but they did all make them). However aerodynamics are only important at high speeds. Most time on long distance events over varied terrain is made up on the climbs, and the extra weight of recumbents and the lack of multiple riding positions makes them inefficient there.

                                              In short high speed sprint events on flat terrain recumbents do have the records (look up Battle Mountain). This style of riding isn't very practical or well mirrored in normal riding though. It's the same with cars, big cars shaped like missles with rocket engines are clearly faster than my Subaru at the Bonneville Salt Flats, but that doesn't make them faster or practical for a drive across town.

                                              alex
                                              ________________________________________
                                              From: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com [Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of dr2chase@... [dr2chase@...]
                                              Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:09 AM
                                              To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] Unconventional drive: 2WD

                                              On 2012-09-25, at 11:51 PM, Alex Wetmore <alex@...> wrote:
                                              > Recumbents haven't really proven themselves on true endurance events such as RAAM, Cannonball, or brevets. None of these events are controlled by UCI regulations. If recumbents had a major performance advantage on average terrain (not just flat tracks) then they'd be more common and performing better in these events.

                                              This is still very puzzling, because the air resistance advantages ought to be substantial. I still remember the time I experimentally opened an umbrella while riding a bike and felt it get easier to pedal. Do we see fairings in any of these non-UCI events?

                                              David



                                              ------------------------------------

                                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            • Zach Kaplan
                                              ... I was a BikeE dealer from when I went into business in April 1995 until BikeE went out of business in August 2002. Their least expensive model was the $550
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Sep 27, 2012
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                                                "Alex Wetmore" alex@... wrote:

                                                > Trek and Cannondale have both made recumbents in the last decade. BikeE was probably the biggest attempt at a low cost recumbent (their cheapest model was around $400, similar to hybrids made with similar level equipment at the same time).

                                                I was a BikeE dealer from when I went into business in April 1995 until BikeE went out of business in August 2002. Their least expensive model was the $550 last generation CT (the one with elliptical aluminium chain stays).

                                                > Recumbents haven't really proven themselves on true endurance events such as RAAM, Cannonball, or brevets. None of these events are controlled by UCI regulations. If recumbents had a major performance advantage on average terrain (not just flat tracks) then they'd be more common and performing better in these events.

                                                Not sure what you mean. Lots of recumbents have been ridden successfully on RAAM, Cannonball and brevets. It is true it has mostly been older riders who have entered these events on recumbents but look up the exploits of recumbent riders John Schlitter and Tim Woudenberg on RAAM. They both did well for men in their mid-50's.

                                                -------------------------------------------------------------
                                                Zach Kaplan Cycles
                                                510-522-BENT (2368)
                                                zach@...
                                                http://zachkaplancycles.com
                                              • Alex Wetmore
                                                ... I mean that the fastest riders on these events are not riding recumbents. If they had major performance advantages on this type of course then more riders
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Sep 27, 2012
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                                                  >> Recumbents haven't really proven themselves on true endurance events such as RAAM, Cannonball,
                                                  >> or brevets. None of these events are controlled by UCI regulations. If recumbents had a major
                                                  >> performance advantage on average terrain (not just flat tracks) then they'd be more common
                                                  >> and performing better in these events.

                                                  > Not sure what you mean. Lots of recumbents have been ridden successfully on RAAM,
                                                  > Cannonball and brevets. It is true it has mostly been older riders who have entered these
                                                  > events on recumbents but look up the exploits of recumbent riders John Schlitter and
                                                  > Tim Woudenberg on RAAM. They both did well for men in their mid-50's.

                                                  I mean that the fastest riders on these events are not riding recumbents. If they had major performance advantages on this type of course then more riders would use them.

                                                  Sam Whittingham is the fastest rider in the world on a recumbent, but his personal bikes are upright and he also builds upright bikes for his customers doing this style of riding.

                                                  alex
                                                • pj
                                                  ... It s rare to find any manufacturer s website that says otherwise.
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Sep 29, 2012
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                                                    > The website makes it sound like they work well and are available.

                                                    It's rare to find any manufacturer's website that says otherwise.
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