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Re: Shimano 11 failure, repair, warranty, minimum ratio

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  • pj
    ... What a shame that page(s) of the Shimano Dealer Manual can t be posted here in the Files section. I m also wondering why the drop out style has anything to
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 19, 2011
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      > The information is the Shimano Dealer Manual.
      > It specifies specific and different gear combinations
      > for horizontal and vertical dropouts. The non-turn
      > washers do not hold in vertical dropouts as well as
      > horizontal (Shimano calls them track ends).

      What a shame that page(s) of the Shimano Dealer Manual can't be posted here in the Files section.

      I'm also wondering why the drop out style has anything to do with damage to the hub's _internal_ components.

      pj
    • pj
      ... Should we expect differently, since as you say Shimano provides different product information to shops and consumers?
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 19, 2011
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        > DIYers can and often do have wildly different
        > expectations and experiences as a shop.

        Should we expect differently, since as you say Shimano provides different product information to shops and consumers?
      • Frank White
        ... That is great to hear. If jtek follows shortly I may have a problem following my own advice on not buting one yet. One has to wonder if the reported
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 19, 2011
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          On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 6:19 PM, Jack Vincent <2wheelednut@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Versa has the 11 speed shifter out. I have been riding with it for 4 months now with no problems.
          >

          That is great to hear. If jtek follows shortly I may have a problem
          following my own advice on not buting one yet.

          One has to wonder if the reported shifting problems are caused by the
          shifter rather than the hub.

          Anyone using the versa having the shifting issues?

          --
          -Frank White
        • Frank White
          Looks like they have: http://www.joe-bike.com/2011/08/07/splashy-introducing-the-spotbikes-ajax-with-drop-bars/ -- -Frank White
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 19, 2011
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          • Jack Vincent
            There was a running change done addressing shifting issues in 9-11 gears specific to the hub not the shifter. Sent from my iPhone
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 19, 2011
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              There was a running change done addressing shifting issues in 9-11 gears specific to the hub not the shifter.

              Sent from my iPhone
            • aarons_bicycle_repair
              In every trade the professionals have access to different (more and better) information than the consumer. Plumbers, Electricians, Auto Mechanics, etc., etc. I
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 20, 2011
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                In every trade the professionals have access to different (more and better) information than the consumer.

                Plumbers, Electricians, Auto Mechanics, etc., etc.

                I expect an auto mechanic to do a better job than me.

                --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "pj" <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:
                >
                > > DIYers can and often do have wildly different
                > > expectations and experiences as a shop.
                >
                > Should we expect differently, since as you say Shimano provides different product information to shops and consumers?
                >
              • aarons_bicycle_repair
                It is a bound book and I am sorry, I just don t have the time to hold the book open on my flat bed scanner right now. Shimano used to supply a cd with the
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 20, 2011
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                  It is a bound book and I am sorry, I just don't have the time to hold the book open on my flat bed scanner right now. Shimano used to supply a cd with the book, but they stopped. It is now just paper. If you stop by my shop I will let you look at it. Some people have joked that I have "secret info" but I would show anyone. I believe in information sharing as much as anyone. Maybe this winter, I will scan it. Remind me!

                  Vertical dropouts tend not to hold the axle as well. There is more variation in dropout shape and there is less engagement with the non-turn washer. In fact, many dropouts really do not engage the blue or green non-turn washer well at all. We have seen more damage to verticals than horizontals. Somtimes it is just the knurling that is holding the axle stationary in the dropout. Hence my recommendation to NOT stand on the pedals. Once the axle rotates, your hub is out of adjustment. It only takes a tiny bit. The guts of many modern hubs are much more robust than Sturmey-Archer AWs but the axles are still basically the same size. Path dependancy! A torque arm like Rohloff is really needed. Check the axle nut torque regularly. 32 foot-pounds. Make sure the threads are well greased.

                  --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "pj" <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:
                  > What a shame that page(s) of the Shimano Dealer Manual can't be posted here in the Files section.
                  >
                  > I'm also wondering why the drop out style has anything to do with damage to the hub's _internal_ components.
                  >
                  > pj
                  >
                • aarons_bicycle_repair
                  For example..... I just replaced the valve cover gasket on my classic 1966 Ford F100 straight 6 engine(used to haul scrap iron to the shot to the recycling
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 21, 2011
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                    For example..... I just replaced the valve cover gasket on my classic 1966 Ford F100 straight 6 engine(used to haul scrap iron to the shot to the recycling yard - Seattle does not pick up massive piles of scrap iron). I followed the instructions, purchased a "kwality gasket from Car Quest and used the "glue" etc. etc. Well it still leaked! Funk that Shoot! I took it to my honest local auto mechanic. HLAM? and guess, what? The cover was slightly bent. So he straightened it and used a much better quality "rubberized" gasket and now it does not leak. Hmmmm. What can we learn here?
                    Trust your LBS mechanic! Find one. We exist. We love bikes and it is all we want to do. We are usually in our 30s or 40s. The apprenticies are in their 20s but will probably move on to programming comuters because of the money. Pay us well so we can earn a living wage, give us your business instead of the lowest price online provider and buy your parts from us. I call it Fair Trade. Just like coffee.

                    My hope here by educating about ane encouraging the use of IGH that other shops pick it up and it will, over time, become easier to obtain service and parts from your LBS. Then, perhaps, SRAM will see fit to continue to make awesome hubs like the i9 and S7 instead of discontinuing them!

                    Cheers, Aaron
                    Aaron's Bicycle Repair


                    --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "aarons_bicycle_repair" <aaron@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > In every trade the professionals have access to different (more and better) information than the consumer.
                    >
                    > Plumbers, Electricians, Auto Mechanics, etc., etc.
                    >
                    > I expect an auto mechanic to do a better job than me.
                    >
                    > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "pj" <prester_john_in_cathay@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > DIYers can and often do have wildly different
                    > > > expectations and experiences as a shop.
                    > >
                    > > Should we expect differently, since as you say Shimano provides different product information to shops and consumers?
                    > >
                    >
                  • Mark Stonich
                    ... Aaron, Do I remember correctly that the tab on the non-turn washers for vertical dropouts is closer to the axle than on the non-turn washers for
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 21, 2011
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                      >Vertical dropouts tend not to hold the axle as well. There is more
                      >variation in dropout shape and there is less engagement with the
                      >non-turn washer. In fact, many dropouts really do not engage the
                      >blue or green non-turn washer well at all. We have seen more damage
                      >to verticals than horizontals.

                      Aaron,
                      Do I remember correctly that the tab on the non-turn washers for
                      vertical dropouts is closer to the axle than on the non-turn washers
                      for horizontals? That would increase leverage on the dropouts.
                      --

                      Mark Stonich;
                      BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                      5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
                      Ph. (612) 824-2372 http://bikesmithdesign.com
                    • aarons_bicycle_repair
                      No it is because they do not fit in vertical dropouts well and can rotate out of the drop-out. On some bikes the non-turn washer hardly fit will at all. There
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 22, 2011
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                        No it is because they do not fit in vertical dropouts well and can rotate out of the drop-out. On some bikes the non-turn washer hardly fit will at all. There is quite a bit of variation in drop-out design! Also most bikes are aluminum which makes it more likely, especially if the axle nuts are not torqued.

                        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stonich <mark@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Aaron,
                        > Do I remember correctly that the tab on the non-turn washers for
                        > vertical dropouts is closer to the axle than on the non-turn washers
                        > for horizontals? That would increase leverage on the dropouts.
                        > --
                        >
                        > Mark Stonich;
                        > BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                        > 5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
                        > Ph. (612) 824-2372 http://bikesmithdesign.com
                        >
                      • pj
                        ... But in this case, we allegedly have not different (more and better) but different (contradictory) descriptions, instructions and limitations given to shops
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 24, 2011
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                          > In every trade the professionals have access to different
                          > (more and better) information than the consumer.

                          But in this case, we allegedly have not different (more and better) but different (contradictory) descriptions, instructions and limitations given to shops and consumers for the same device.

                          pj
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