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Re: Sturmey-Archer XFR8(W) major malfunction

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  • David H
    Yep, used the anti-rotation washers that came with the hub. And in fact, yes, the axle nuts were properly torqued, as I had adjusted the chain tension just
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 1, 2011
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      Yep, used the anti-rotation washers that came with the hub. And in fact, yes, the axle nuts were properly torqued, as I had adjusted the chain tension just before the ride.

      Explain to me how loose axle nuts would cause the hub to lock up? I can see how the axle might spin if the nuts were loose, but I don't understand how that would cause the hub to be completely locked up.

      And you are right, it did interesting things to the shift cable/bracket. In fact, that's the first thing I noticed that clued me in that something very bad had happened; the bracket was 180 degrees out of position and the cable was kinked and lying parallel to the bracket. I'm amazed the cable didn't break.

      I came here first because I was curious to know if anyone else has experience this (hub locking up). Sounds like the answer is no.

      thanks,
      David



      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "pj" <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Took me a while to analyze what I was looking at,
      > > but basically, the hub itself had locked up. When it
      > > did so, it spun the axle 180 degrees, destroying
      > > one lock washer, while the other apparently spread
      > > the dropout slot and spun around with the axle.
      >
      > You were using the HMW518 anti-rotation washer that come with the hub, right?
      >
      > <http://www.sjscycles.com/supersize/19112.jpg>
      >
      > And your axle nuts were properly torqued, because you'd checked them recently?
      >
      > I have to ask because this sounds like what happens if the axle nuts get loose. (...and why would I know that?)
      >
      > Spinning the hub 180deg must have done interesting things to the shift cable/bracket. (Speaking from some experience here.)
      >
      > Anyway, as you say, you came here first prior to contacting either your dealer or Sturmey. I'm confident Sturmey will make good on the hub.
      >
    • David H
      Sounds to me like you didn t read my post very carefully. If I am mistaken, then please explain to me how loose axle nuts (which I am certain was not the case)
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 1, 2011
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        Sounds to me like you didn't read my post very carefully.

        If I am mistaken, then please explain to me how loose axle nuts (which I am certain was not the case) would cause the hub to lock up.

        By locked up I mean the wheel would not turn without the axle also turning, even after I had removed the wheel from the bike.

        I wish I had thought to get my phone out and take pictures at the time, but I didn't. But I can take pictures of the damage done to the dropouts and it will be obvious that the nuts were pretty tight at the time, as they severely gouged the dropouts as they spun.

        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "ighexpert" <aaron@...> wrote:
        >
        > It sounds to me like you did not get the axle nuts tight. Grease the threads and torque to 25-30 foot pounds. Check regularly.
        >
        > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "David H" <david@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Last January I was asking questions here about sourcing the Sturmey-Archer XFR8(W). Found lots of older non-W 8-speeds, but only one place could get their hands on the W and it was $200. I wanted it, so I got it.
        > >
        > > The rebuild of my old Sears 3-speed went well, using the S-A 8-speed (see <http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1912373095027.2116781.1412890194&l=172cc423e9&type=1>), and it became my favorite bike to ride ... until a couple of weeks ago.
        > >
        > > I've put somewhere between 500 and 600 miles on the bike, mostly on the very flat Silver Comet Trail here in Georgia. I was cruising along two weeks ago when suddenly "something" happened - it took me a few seconds to figure out that my rear wheel had locked up. I skidded safely to a stop, dismounted, and tried to figure out what happened.
        > >
        > > At first I thought the chain had derailed and somehow locked things up, but then I realized the chain had derailed as the result of something else. Took me a while to analyze what I was looking at, but basically, the hub itself had locked up. When it did so, it spun the axle 180 degrees, destroying one lock washer, while the other apparently spread the dropout slot and spun around with the axle.
        > >
        > > I messed with it on the side of the trail, hoping I could get it working well enough to ride back to the car, but the sprocket and whatever it drives was locked solidly to the axle. I could get the hub to freewheel, with significant resistance, but there was no way to ride it.
        > >
        > > My wife headed on back to the car, while I started walking to a spot about 3 miles away where she could pick me up. By the time we got home the sprocket was able to turn again without turning the axle, although there is still considerable resistance.
        > >
        > > I have not torn into the hub, and I'm not inclined to. I don't care what went wrong, the fact that it could lock up like that for no apparent reason has turned be completely against the idea of using another S-A 8 hub. I have yet to talk with the bike shop that sold it to me, or to S-A, about a refund.
        > >
        > > So has anyone had this happen? Or even heard about it happening? When I got the hub, the bike shop had to order it from his distributor, who had just gotten a shipment in from Taiwan, so it is a recently manufactured hub.
        > >
        > > --
        > > David Hill
        > > Atlanta, GA, USA
        > > david@
        > >
        >
      • pj
        We always want it to be a failure of the hub, rather than something we did. Sometimes it is; sometimes it s not. ... Hey, maybe your S-A 8(W) failed - as duly
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 1, 2011
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          We always want it to be a failure of the hub, rather than something we did. Sometimes it is; sometimes it's not.

          >... I had adjusted the chain tension just before the ride.
          >
          > Explain to me how loose axle nuts would cause
          > the hub to lock up? I can see how the axle might
          > spin if the nuts were loose, but I don't understand
          > how that would cause the hub to be completely
          > locked up.
          >
          > And you are right, it did interesting things to the
          > shift cable/bracket. In fact, that's the first thing I
          > noticed that clued me in that something very bad
          > had happened; the bracket was 180 degrees out of
          > position and the cable was kinked and lying parallel
          > to the bracket. I'm amazed the cable didn't break.

          Hey, maybe your S-A 8(W) failed - as duly reported to this board, my 1st one did, in a very different way - and I'm sure the enthusiast community here has certainly put this incident on file in our collective memory banks. However, everything else you describe is reasonably consistent with non-tight axle nuts. Would jerking the shift cable violently to its extreme travel while the hub was under torque result in locking an XR*8(W)? Dunno, and I'm not going to run an experiment with mine to find out! : )

          I'll recommend once again you contact Sturmey.

          Best,
          pj
        • jsharvey61
          This may or may not have happened, no way for me to tell. To answer the repeated question of . . . how loose axle nuts would cause the hub to lock up. The
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 1, 2011
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            This may or may not have happened, no way for me to tell. To answer the repeated question of ". . . how loose axle nuts would cause the hub to lock up." The nuts allow the axle to spin, the cable tightens up to the point it causes the internal gear shifting mechanism to malfunction/lock, and the axle and wheel become one.



            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "David H" <david@...> wrote:
            >
            > Sounds to me like you didn't read my post very carefully.
            >
            > If I am mistaken, then please explain to me how loose axle nuts (which I am certain was not the case) would cause the hub to lock up.
            >
            > By locked up I mean the wheel would not turn without the axle also turning, even after I had removed the wheel from the bike.
            >
            > I wish I had thought to get my phone out and take pictures at the time, but I didn't. But I can take pictures of the damage done to the dropouts and it will be obvious that the nuts were pretty tight at the time, as they severely gouged the dropouts as they spun.
            >
            > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "ighexpert" <aaron@> wrote:
            > >
            > > It sounds to me like you did not get the axle nuts tight. Grease the threads and torque to 25-30 foot pounds. Check regularly.
            > >
            > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "David H" <david@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Last January I was asking questions here about sourcing the Sturmey-Archer XFR8(W). Found lots of older non-W 8-speeds, but only one place could get their hands on the W and it was $200. I wanted it, so I got it.
            > > >
            > > > The rebuild of my old Sears 3-speed went well, using the S-A 8-speed (see <http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1912373095027.2116781.1412890194&l=172cc423e9&type=1>), and it became my favorite bike to ride ... until a couple of weeks ago.
            > > >
            > > > I've put somewhere between 500 and 600 miles on the bike, mostly on the very flat Silver Comet Trail here in Georgia. I was cruising along two weeks ago when suddenly "something" happened - it took me a few seconds to figure out that my rear wheel had locked up. I skidded safely to a stop, dismounted, and tried to figure out what happened.
            > > >
            > > > At first I thought the chain had derailed and somehow locked things up, but then I realized the chain had derailed as the result of something else. Took me a while to analyze what I was looking at, but basically, the hub itself had locked up. When it did so, it spun the axle 180 degrees, destroying one lock washer, while the other apparently spread the dropout slot and spun around with the axle.
            > > >
            > > > I messed with it on the side of the trail, hoping I could get it working well enough to ride back to the car, but the sprocket and whatever it drives was locked solidly to the axle. I could get the hub to freewheel, with significant resistance, but there was no way to ride it.
            > > >
            > > > My wife headed on back to the car, while I started walking to a spot about 3 miles away where she could pick me up. By the time we got home the sprocket was able to turn again without turning the axle, although there is still considerable resistance.
            > > >
            > > > I have not torn into the hub, and I'm not inclined to. I don't care what went wrong, the fact that it could lock up like that for no apparent reason has turned be completely against the idea of using another S-A 8 hub. I have yet to talk with the bike shop that sold it to me, or to S-A, about a refund.
            > > >
            > > > So has anyone had this happen? Or even heard about it happening? When I got the hub, the bike shop had to order it from his distributor, who had just gotten a shipment in from Taiwan, so it is a recently manufactured hub.
            > > >
            > > > --
            > > > David Hill
            > > > Atlanta, GA, USA
            > > > david@
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • David H
            Thanks for your responses, pj and jsharvey6. I realized that I haven t given all the details that led me to believe the lock up occurred first, and the
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 1, 2011
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              Thanks for your responses, pj and jsharvey6.

              I realized that I haven't given all the details that led me to believe the lock up occurred first, and the spinning axle occurred as a result.

              First, the left side lock washer was shattered into multiple pieces, indicating a pretty high torque occurred rapidly.

              Second, the right side lock washer did not shatter, but in spinning it actually spread the dropout slot wide enough that the washer would no longer lock the axle in place, again an indication that a rather high torque was applied as the axle was spinning.

              Third, both dropouts are deeply scored indicating a high clamping pressure as the washers rotated relative to the dropouts, an indication that the axle nuts were torqued tightly.

              Fourth, when I removed the wheel immediately afterwards, neither axle nut appeared to be loose or lightly torqued.

              These four things indicate to me that the hub locked first, and the torque generated by the large diameter wheel caused the damage.

              I'm generally the first to admit if something I've done has caused a problem. I'm also pretty observant about details and usually accurate with conclusions about things mechanical. I'm just uneducated about the internals of 8 speed gear hubs, and curious about what could possibly cause a hub to lock up like this.

              Sorry if I came off as pissy earlier. What I wanted to learn from the group was if anyone has had this happen, and instead of any helpful information what I got was "you must have done something wrong."

              Apparently this was a unique occurrence, not that it is any comfort to me or gives me any confidence that it would not happen again.

              I'll be looking at SRAM or Shimano for a replacement hub.

              cheers ...
              David

              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "jsharvey61" <jsharvey1961@...> wrote:
              >
              > This may or may not have happened, no way for me to tell. To answer the repeated question of ". . . how loose axle nuts would cause the hub to lock up." The nuts allow the axle to spin, the cable tightens up to the point it causes the internal gear shifting mechanism to malfunction/lock, and the axle and wheel become one.
              >
            • jsharvey61
              Given that string of events I would also conclude the axle locked up first. It could be that a tooth on a gear broke off and then jammed, or some other bit of
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 1, 2011
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                Given that string of events I would also conclude the axle locked up first. It could be that a tooth on a gear broke off and then jammed, or some other bit of metal separated. Some piece of metal would need to jam the mechanism to make it lock.

                I assume you (or the dealer) will send the hub back to Sturmey-Archer, they'll take it apart and if a bit of metal is jammed in between to gear sets it will be very obvious once the hub is opened. The local dealer could do that just as easily, but it will depend on SA's warranty policies as to who should open the hub.

                Good luck to you.

                John Harvey

                --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "David H" <david@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks for your responses, pj and jsharvey6.
                >
                > I realized that I haven't given all the details that led me to believe the lock up occurred first, and the spinning axle occurred as a result.
                >
                > First, the left side lock washer was shattered into multiple pieces, indicating a pretty high torque occurred rapidly.
                >
                > Second, the right side lock washer did not shatter, but in spinning it actually spread the dropout slot wide enough that the washer would no longer lock the axle in place, again an indication that a rather high torque was applied as the axle was spinning.
                >
                > Third, both dropouts are deeply scored indicating a high clamping pressure as the washers rotated relative to the dropouts, an indication that the axle nuts were torqued tightly.
                >
                > Fourth, when I removed the wheel immediately afterwards, neither axle nut appeared to be loose or lightly torqued.
                >
                > These four things indicate to me that the hub locked first, and the torque generated by the large diameter wheel caused the damage.
                >
                > I'm generally the first to admit if something I've done has caused a problem. I'm also pretty observant about details and usually accurate with conclusions about things mechanical. I'm just uneducated about the internals of 8 speed gear hubs, and curious about what could possibly cause a hub to lock up like this.
                >
                > Sorry if I came off as pissy earlier. What I wanted to learn from the group was if anyone has had this happen, and instead of any helpful information what I got was "you must have done something wrong."
                >
                > Apparently this was a unique occurrence, not that it is any comfort to me or gives me any confidence that it would not happen again.
                >
                > I'll be looking at SRAM or Shimano for a replacement hub.
                >
                > cheers ...
                > David
                >
                > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "jsharvey61" <jsharvey1961@> wrote:
                > >
                > > This may or may not have happened, no way for me to tell. To answer the repeated question of ". . . how loose axle nuts would cause the hub to lock up." The nuts allow the axle to spin, the cable tightens up to the point it causes the internal gear shifting mechanism to malfunction/lock, and the axle and wheel become one.
                > >
                >
              • pj
                ... It would have hypothetically been the planetary stages or the hub shell that locked up, the axle being bolted to the frame in any case.
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 2, 2011
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                  > Given that string of events I would also conclude
                  > the axle locked up first.

                  It would have hypothetically been the planetary stages or the hub shell that locked up, the axle being bolted to the frame in any case.
                • Frank White
                  ... ... Buy a Nexus 8. (Or an Alfine if you want disc brakes.) The axles are big and tough, the nuts are big and tough, and the a/r washers appear to be
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 2, 2011
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                    On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 1:21 PM, David H <david@...> wrote:
                    >
                    <snip>
                    >
                    > I'll be looking at SRAM or Shimano for a replacement hub.

                    Buy a Nexus 8. (Or an Alfine if you want disc brakes.)

                    The axles are big and tough, the nuts are big and tough, and the a/r
                    washers appear to be indestructible. I stripped a number of nuts over
                    the years without any damage to the axle, so you can safely go to town
                    when wrenching the nuts down.

                    I have stomped a number of gearhubs to death, but my 7 speed nexus put
                    up with ten years of harsh abuse and my 8 speed shows not the
                    slightest sign of a problem.

                    You will not get a tougher large range gearhub new for $200.

                    http://www.bikeman.com/JB-SG8R36.html

                    http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=10678

                    --
                    -Frank White
                  • David H
                    I ve got the Nexus 8 on my Globe Vienna 4 ( Graagle ). I rode that for about a year before I rebuilt my old Sears bike ( Blue ) with the S-A 8 hub. I was
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 6, 2011
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                      I've got the Nexus 8 on my Globe Vienna 4 ("Graagle"). I rode that for about a year before I rebuilt my old Sears bike ("Blue") with the S-A 8 hub. I was really loving riding "Blue" this year and "Graagle" was consequently neglected. But with the demise of the S-A hub, and the short list of additional tweaks I want to make to "Blue", "Graagle" is getting all my attention, for now.

                      I want to build a road bike around an Alfine 8 or 11, but that'll be a little more dosh than is presently available. :-)

                      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Frank White <survivalbicycle@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 1:21 PM, David H <david@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > <snip>
                      > >
                      > > I'll be looking at SRAM or Shimano for a replacement hub.
                      >
                      > Buy a Nexus 8. (Or an Alfine if you want disc brakes.)
                      >
                      > The axles are big and tough, the nuts are big and tough, and the a/r
                      > washers appear to be indestructible. I stripped a number of nuts over
                      > the years without any damage to the axle, so you can safely go to town
                      > when wrenching the nuts down.
                      >
                      > I have stomped a number of gearhubs to death, but my 7 speed nexus put
                      > up with ten years of harsh abuse and my 8 speed shows not the
                      > slightest sign of a problem.
                      >
                      > You will not get a tougher large range gearhub new for $200.
                      >
                      > http://www.bikeman.com/JB-SG8R36.html
                      >
                      > http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=10678
                      >
                      > --
                      > -Frank White
                      >
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