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Solution to the drop-bar problem :)

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  • Vincent Kang
    http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=15300
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 3, 2010
    • Rich
      I have a set in my parts box. No angle adjustment available for the drops so with most flat bars, other than dead straight ones, the drops angle inwards. How
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 3, 2010
        I have a set in my parts box. No angle adjustment available for the drops so with most flat bars, other than dead straight ones, the drops angle inwards. How much inward angle is dependent on the backward sweep angle of the flat bar grip area the drop bar ends are mounted on. This is the exact opposite of most Randonneur bars or something like the WTB Dirt Drop bar which have an outward angle on the drops area. In fact I do not think I have seen any drop bar that does what the drop bar ends do with other than dead straight bars.

        IMO they need to incorporate an additional adjustable angle portion between the clamp area and the drops so that there is some drops angle adjustment available or offer multiple versions with angle compensation built in for 5, 8 and maybe 15 degree sweepback flat bars.

        Rich Wood


        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Kang <awesome_vincent@...> wrote:
        >
        > http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=15300
        >
      • Rich
        I would add that the big problem I see for the Pinion transmission s adoption by many enthusiasts is the fact that it is not compatible with a standard frame.
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 3, 2010
          I would add that the big problem I see for the Pinion transmission's adoption by many enthusiasts is the fact that it is not compatible with a standard frame. This means it is fittable only by manufacturers of frames, either mass production or custom frame builders.

          One thing which helped the Rohloff hub succeed IMO was that it was retrofittable to most older frames even if they were not ideal for the job. This was helped by the fact that Rohloff made hub configurations, and accessories, that allowed fitting to a very wide range of frames.

          When the Alfine 11 speed hub becomes available at retail it will be a relatively easy job to adapt it to a lot of different bikes as it is a standard rear wheel hub configuration that will fit, or be adaptable to, lots of frames. The Pinion transmission wil not have this ready made bike mechanic enthusiast market available to it.

          This transmission configuration is a single source item too which could work against it's adoption by manufacturers.

          Rich Wood


          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <astronut1001@...> wrote:
          >
          > Very interesting article. An 18 speed bottom bracket transmission which can take 200N of input torque and has a 634% range while only weighing 2.5 Kg sounds fascinating. With the Rohloff required input ratio reduction of 2.35 the input torque allowed by the new transmission is similar to what the Rohloff as installed is rated for, maybe a bit less than the Rohloff.
          >
          > It is referred to as a double shaft transmission if Google Translate is right so is similar in concept to the Suntour downhill racing bottom bracket transmission discussed here before but it has a lot more speeds and range as well as having been greatly reduced in size and weight.
          >
          > IF it is as represented the major impediments to relatively widespread adoption will be the custom bottom bracket required for mounting and the cost. Finding or starting a manufacturer could be an impediment. Be interesting to know the efficiency obtained too.
          >
          > Note that the article made the magazine Der Spiegel which is the German equivqalent of Time and Business Week combined as I recall. Here is hopefully a more direct link to the article.
          >
          > http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,714838,00.html&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.de&usg=ALkJrhi6p1OVnzJL2C7v0pO1Plwj2hPL9w
          >
          > or
          >
          > http://tinyurl.com/244pbqe
          >
          > Rich Wood
          >
          >
          > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "chkamb" <chkamb@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Just read this article on the Pinion IGH (in German):
          > > www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,714838,00.html
          > > Please use Google translate: http://translate.google.de/?hl=en#
          > >
          > > 2.5kg, 18 speeds, 634% range, available late 2011 or 2012, price: more than 2000 EUR...
          > >
          > > There should be a presentation at the Eurobike..
          > > www.pinion.eu/en/index.html
          > > More pictures: www.endorfinbikes.de/
          > >
          >
        • Joseph Shaul
          On the other hand, epicyclic gearboxes like most IGH hubs are fairly inefficient. A simpler automotive-style gearbox has the potential to greatly reduce
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 3, 2010
            On the other hand, epicyclic gearboxes like most IGH hubs are fairly inefficient. A simpler automotive-style gearbox has the potential to greatly reduce drivetrain drag.

            Also, while having a custom frame made up is awfully expensive, it's still much cheaper than the $2500+ asked for one of these things. I also wouldn't be surprised if they find some way to structurally integrate the gearbox into the frame in some fashion.

            On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 11:17 AM, Alex Wetmore <alex@...> wrote:
             

            From: Kfir Lavi [lavi.kfir@...]
            > This is something I asked for a long time ago in the touring forum.
            > It is a dream come true!

            It is almost twice the weight of any other bicycle transmission option when you add in the weight of a standard rear hub and cog.  I expect that replacing a chunk of the highly stressed downtube/seattube junction with flat plate has a big weight penalty too.

            The increased gear range over the Rohloff will be helpful on some styles of bicycles though (recumbents come to mind).  I could see mounting this in an intermediate position on a two-chain recumbent.

            alex



            On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Rich <astronut1001@...> wrote:
             

            I would add that the big problem I see for the Pinion transmission's adoption by many enthusiasts is the fact that it is not compatible with a standard frame. This means it is fittable only by manufacturers of frames, either mass production or custom frame builders.

            One thing which helped the Rohloff hub succeed IMO was that it was retrofittable to most older frames even if they were not ideal for the job. This was helped by the fact that Rohloff made hub configurations, and accessories, that allowed fitting to a very wide range of frames.

            When the Alfine 11 speed hub becomes available at retail it will be a relatively easy job to adapt it to a lot of different bikes as it is a standard rear wheel hub configuration that will fit, or be adaptable to, lots of frames. The Pinion transmission wil not have this ready made bike mechanic enthusiast market available to it.

            This transmission configuration is a single source item too which could work against it's adoption by manufacturers.

            Rich Wood



            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <astronut1001@...> wrote:
            >
            > Very interesting article. An 18 speed bottom bracket transmission which can take 200N of input torque and has a 634% range while only weighing 2.5 Kg sounds fascinating. With the Rohloff required input ratio reduction of 2.35 the input torque allowed by the new transmission is similar to what the Rohloff as installed is rated for, maybe a bit less than the Rohloff.
            >
            > It is referred to as a double shaft transmission if Google Translate is right so is similar in concept to the Suntour downhill racing bottom bracket transmission discussed here before but it has a lot more speeds and range as well as having been greatly reduced in size and weight.
            >
            > IF it is as represented the major impediments to relatively widespread adoption will be the custom bottom bracket required for mounting and the cost. Finding or starting a manufacturer could be an impediment. Be interesting to know the efficiency obtained too.
            >
            > Note that the article made the magazine Der Spiegel which is the German equivqalent of Time and Business Week combined as I recall. Here is hopefully a more direct link to the article.
            >
            > http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,714838,00.html&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.de&usg=ALkJrhi6p1OVnzJL2C7v0pO1Plwj2hPL9w
            >
            > or
            >
            > http://tinyurl.com/244pbqe
            >
            > Rich Wood
            >
            >
            > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "chkamb" <chkamb@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Just read this article on the Pinion IGH (in German):
            > > www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,714838,00.html
            > > Please use Google translate: http://translate.google.de/?hl=en#
            > >
            > > 2.5kg, 18 speeds, 634% range, available late 2011 or 2012, price: more than 2000 EUR...
            > >
            > > There should be a presentation at the Eurobike..
            > > www.pinion.eu/en/index.html
            > > More pictures: www.endorfinbikes.de/
            > >
            >


          • Rich
            I am not sure about efficiency as I suspect to get 18 speeds into something that compact that compounding is used for at least some of the gear combinations.
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 3, 2010
              I am not sure about efficiency as I suspect to get 18 speeds into something that compact that compounding is used for at least some of the gear combinations. From the original article I got the impression it was a 6 speed transmission with an integrated 3 speed range selection sub section. With a properly designed shifter the operation of the sub transmission could be made totally transparent to the user.

              In the respect of using a sub transmission it would be much like many trucks with a main transmission and a secondary range selector transmission. That is how they can end up with 30 speeds or so.

              Rich Wood

              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Shaul <spasticteapot@...> wrote:
              >
              > On the other hand, epicyclic gearboxes like most IGH hubs are fairly
              > inefficient. A simpler automotive-style gearbox has the potential to greatly
              > reduce drivetrain drag.
              >
              > Also, while having a custom frame made up is awfully expensive, it's still
              > much cheaper than the $2500+ asked for one of these things. I also wouldn't
              > be surprised if they find some way to structurally integrate the gearbox
              > into the frame in some fashion.
              >
              > On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 11:17 AM, Alex Wetmore <alex@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > *From:* Kfir Lavi [lavi.kfir@...]
              > > > This is something I asked for a long time ago in the touring forum.
              > > > It is a dream come true!
              > >
              > > It is almost twice the weight of any other bicycle transmission option when
              > > you add in the weight of a standard rear hub and cog. I expect that
              > > replacing a chunk of the highly stressed downtube/seattube junction with
              > > flat plate has a big weight penalty too.
              > >
              > > The increased gear range over the Rohloff will be helpful on some styles of
              > > bicycles though (recumbents come to mind). I could see mounting this in an
              > > intermediate position on a two-chain recumbent.
              > >
              > > alex
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Rich <astronut1001@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > I would add that the big problem I see for the Pinion transmission's
              > > adoption by many enthusiasts is the fact that it is not compatible with a
              > > standard frame. This means it is fittable only by manufacturers of frames,
              > > either mass production or custom frame builders.
              > >
              > > One thing which helped the Rohloff hub succeed IMO was that it was
              > > retrofittable to most older frames even if they were not ideal for the job.
              > > This was helped by the fact that Rohloff made hub configurations, and
              > > accessories, that allowed fitting to a very wide range of frames.
              > >
              > > When the Alfine 11 speed hub becomes available at retail it will be a
              > > relatively easy job to adapt it to a lot of different bikes as it is a
              > > standard rear wheel hub configuration that will fit, or be adaptable to,
              > > lots of frames. The Pinion transmission wil not have this ready made bike
              > > mechanic enthusiast market available to it.
              > >
              > > This transmission configuration is a single source item too which could
              > > work against it's adoption by manufacturers.
              > >
              > > Rich Wood
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com<Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > > "Rich" <astronut1001@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Very interesting article. An 18 speed bottom bracket transmission which
              > > can take 200N of input torque and has a 634% range while only weighing 2.5
              > > Kg sounds fascinating. With the Rohloff required input ratio reduction of
              > > 2.35 the input torque allowed by the new transmission is similar to what the
              > > Rohloff as installed is rated for, maybe a bit less than the Rohloff.
              > > >
              > > > It is referred to as a double shaft transmission if Google Translate is
              > > right so is similar in concept to the Suntour downhill racing bottom bracket
              > > transmission discussed here before but it has a lot more speeds and range as
              > > well as having been greatly reduced in size and weight.
              > > >
              > > > IF it is as represented the major impediments to relatively widespread
              > > adoption will be the custom bottom bracket required for mounting and the
              > > cost. Finding or starting a manufacturer could be an impediment. Be
              > > interesting to know the efficiency obtained too.
              > > >
              > > > Note that the article made the magazine Der Spiegel which is the German
              > > equivqalent of Time and Business Week combined as I recall. Here is
              > > hopefully a more direct link to the article.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,714838,00.html&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.de&usg=ALkJrhi6p1OVnzJL2C7v0pO1Plwj2hPL9w
              > > >
              > > > or
              > > >
              > > > http://tinyurl.com/244pbqe
              > > >
              > > > Rich Wood
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com<Geared_hub_bikes%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > > "chkamb" <chkamb@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Just read this article on the Pinion IGH (in German):
              > > > > www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,714838,00.html
              > > > > Please use Google translate: http://translate.google.de/?hl=en#
              > > > >
              > > > > 2.5kg, 18 speeds, 634% range, available late 2011 or 2012, price: more
              > > than 2000 EUR...
              > > > >
              > > > > There should be a presentation at the Eurobike..
              > > > > www.pinion.eu/en/index.html
              > > > > More pictures: www.endorfinbikes.de/
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Rich
              Here is the paragraph I remembered from the Der Spiegel article: In the two series-stick aluminum casing spur gear sets, one with six and one with three
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 4, 2010
                Here is the paragraph I remembered from the Der Spiegel article:

                In the two series-stick aluminum casing spur gear sets, one with six and one with three translation stages (Ratios), which adds up to 18 passages (gears). But above all it is, in effect, 18 different, sequential, and even in stand durchschaltbare (changeable while not moving) gear ratios, as opposed to chain circuits (derailleurs) can be switched where only while driving and produce various gear pairs the same ratio.

                Clearly this is talking of a 6 speed and a 3 speed gearset being combined to give the 18 gears total. I have added my clarifications of the original article's computer translation in parenthesis.

                Here is how I would re phrase this into more colloquial English based on my understanding of the original machine translation.

                In the two shaft aluminum casing are two gear sets, one with six and one with three ratios which when combined provide 18 gear ratios. This provides 18 different sequential gear ratios which are changeable when underway or stopped and there are no duplicate ratios. This is compared to derailleur drivetrains which can be shifted only while pedaling and have numerous duplicate gears.

                Rich Wood


                --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                >
                > I am not sure about efficiency as I suspect to get 18 speeds into something that compact that compounding is used for at least some of the gear combinations. From the original article I got the impression it was a 6 speed transmission with an integrated 3 speed range selection sub section. With a properly designed shifter the operation of the sub transmission could be made totally transparent to the user.
                >
                > In the respect of using a sub transmission it would be much like many trucks with a main transmission and a secondary range selector transmission. That is how they can end up with 30 speeds or so.
                >
                > Rich Wood
                >
                > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Shaul <spasticteapot@> wrote:
                > >
                > > On the other hand, epicyclic gearboxes like most IGH hubs are fairly
                > > inefficient. A simpler automotive-style gearbox has the potential to greatly
                > > reduce drivetrain drag.
                > >
                > > Also, while having a custom frame made up is awfully expensive, it's still
                > > much cheaper than the $2500+ asked for one of these things. I also wouldn't
                > > be surprised if they find some way to structurally integrate the gearbox
                > > into the frame in some fashion.
                > >
              • Rich
                Here is a link to the Pinion transmission manufacturers web site apparently for those interested. Sorry if already posted earlier.
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 22, 2010
                  Here is a link to the Pinion transmission manufacturers web site apparently for those interested. Sorry if already posted earlier.

                  http://www.pinion.eu/en/index.html

                  Rich Wood

                  --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Price reportedly will be in the 2000 Euros range in Germany. As near as I can tell from the article it is still not in production so is still vaporware as far as actual purchase goes but it apparently does actually exist in prototype form.
                  >
                  > I worked in reliability engineering at Xerox and so am familiar with some of the pitfalls of trying to move from prototype to production manufacturing. Amazing the bugs that can show up in quantity production that were not in the prototypes.
                  >
                  > Rich Wood
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Kfir Lavi <lavi.kfir@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > This is something I asked for a long time ago in the touring forum.
                  > > It is a dream come true!
                  > > I wonder what is the price of this gear box.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks,
                  > > Kfir
                  > >
                  > > On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 3:26 PM, chkamb <chkamb@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Just read this article on the Pinion IGH (in German):
                  > > > www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,714838,00.html
                  > > > Please use Google translate: http://translate.google.de/?hl=en#
                  > > >
                  > > > 2.5kg, 18 speeds, 634% range, available late 2011 or 2012, price: more than
                  > > > 2000 EUR...
                  > > >
                  > > > There should be a presentation at the Eurobike..
                  > > > www.pinion.eu/en/index.html
                  > > > More pictures: www.endorfinbikes.de/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Tom
                  Ref: Pinion It s so hard to come up with anything really - I mean, really - new in cycling. Here are a couple of bikes
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 27, 2010
                    Ref: Pinion

                    <http://www.pinion.eu/en/index.html>

                    It's so hard to come up with anything really - I mean, really - new in cycling. Here are a couple of bikes with bottom bracket gear boxes, also from Germany but 70~75 years old:

                    <http://oldbike.wordpress.com/1936-bismarck-berg-wie-tal-2-speed-with-gearstick/>

                    <http://oldbike.wordpress.com/1937-adler-drei-gang-typ-155-german/>
                  • Rich
                    Tom; Per The Dancing Chain the BB gearbox has been used several times including by Sunbeam, Peugeot and others pre 1910. Sunbeam did one model which
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 27, 2010
                      Tom;

                      Per "The Dancing Chain" the BB gearbox has been used several times including by Sunbeam, Peugeot and others pre 1910. Sunbeam did one model which combines a 3 speed IGH and 2 speed front gearbox along with their oil bath lubricated chain well before WW1.

                      For downhill racing with about 8 speeds the idea was revived some years ago in Europe and SR Suntour made a gearbox for it as did Honda who did a complete bicycle I understand. These were in addition to the gearbox made in Germany by the originators of the concept who even released plans for their frame mounting which were used by Suntour for their gearbox design.

                      The Pinion is just the first to carry things to the extreme of 18 speeds just as Rohloff was the first to push the IGH concept to 14 speeds.

                      Rich Wood


                      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Ref: Pinion
                      >
                      > <http://www.pinion.eu/en/index.html>
                      >
                      > It's so hard to come up with anything really - I mean, really - new in cycling. Here are a couple of bikes with bottom bracket gear boxes, also from Germany but 70~75 years old:
                      >
                      > <http://oldbike.wordpress.com/1936-bismarck-berg-wie-tal-2-speed-with-gearstick/>
                      >
                      > <http://oldbike.wordpress.com/1937-adler-drei-gang-typ-155-german/>
                      >
                    • palatine_ej
                      ... Best bicycle book I ve ever seen. I just keep reading it from start to finish, I find new things each time.
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 29, 2010
                        > Per "The Dancing Chain"

                        Best bicycle book I've ever seen. I just keep reading it from start to finish, I find new things each time.
                      • Rich
                        I agree if you want bicycle drivetrain technical history. I know of nothing even remotely comparable. I have the third edition. Which do you have? Rich Wood
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 29, 2010
                          I agree if you want bicycle drivetrain technical history. I know of nothing even remotely comparable. I have the third edition. Which do you have?

                          Rich Wood

                          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "palatine_ej" <danstrom@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > Per "The Dancing Chain"
                          >
                          > Best bicycle book I've ever seen. I just keep reading it from start to finish, I find new things each time.
                          >
                        • palatine_ej
                          ... I have the newest one that just came out. I borrowed it from my library but they had a two week limit so I bought it from Amazon. If there was a Kindle
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 29, 2010
                            >I have the third edition. Which do you have?
                            I have the newest one that just came out. I borrowed it from my library but they had a two week limit so I bought it from Amazon. If there was a Kindle version, I'd buy a Kindle so I could take "Dancing Chain" on biz trips..
                          • Rich
                            Neil; Welcome to the group. For some reason I have to use cut & paste to get your link to work. I am not sure why. Rich Wood
                            Message 13 of 22 , Nov 9, 2010
                              Neil;

                              Welcome to the group. For some reason I have to use cut & paste to get your link to work. I am not sure why.

                              Rich Wood

                              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "neil.hinchey" <neil.hinchey@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > A link to the Patent for the Pinion gearbox. Click on the "Mosaics" tab
                              > to view full exploded diagrams of the gearbox internals. the 6x3
                              > compounded gear design is clearly evident.
                              >
                              > http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=DE&NR=102008064514A\
                              > 1&KC=A1&FT=D&date=20100701&DB=&locale=en_EP
                              > <A%20link%20to%20the%20Patent%20for%20the%20Pinion%20gearbox.%20Click%20\
                              > on%20the%20>
                              >
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