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Re: Sturmey archer question

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  • Rich Wood
    Brandon; I am American and live in Reno, Nevada. SA does do an 8 speed hub though the gear range is wierd compared to Shimano, SRAM and Rohloff gear hubs.
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 11, 2008
      Brandon;

      I am American and live in Reno, Nevada.

      SA does do an 8 speed hub though the gear range is wierd compared to
      Shimano, SRAM and Rohloff gear hubs.

      Derailleur gear trains are still lighter than the best high gear
      count hubs, particularly the top end derailleur gear trains using
      lots of carbon fiber and titanium in addition to aluminum. Remember
      that in a Tour bike price is not a consideration and they have
      really top mechanics going over each bike with a microscope on a
      daily basis.

      IMO the strengths of a gear hub, properly designed and made, are
      long term dependability and much less susceptiblity to the effects
      of mud, dust and bad weather. Also once initial cable stretch is
      out of the shifter cable they hold adjustment longer than
      derailleurs.

      Per the book Bicycling Science, and test figures on the Rohloff web
      site, the derailleur gear train is very slightly more efficient.
      This does vary however with the derailleur sprocket selection being
      used.

      A rear derailleur is very subject to damage from a fall or other
      impact from riding in rocky areas such as mountain bikers do
      routinely. The latest gear hubs from SRAM, Shimano and Rohloff do
      not have parts which protrude like a derailleur gear train does.
      This makes them much less susceptible to damage in my opinion.

      Thorn Bicycles in England makes some really high end adventure and
      touring bikes. Their designer is a strong proponent of the Rohloff
      hub. He has used it for rough road touring in Australia, Tasmania
      and in South America. Rides have included multiple trips over the
      Andes on dirt and gravel roads to altitudes close to 15,000 feet
      with no problems from the Rohloff hub. It seems to be virtually
      unbreakable. To me this is an area of use where a gear hub shines.

      Also better than derailleur gear trains for use in city riding and
      traffic due to the faster shifting and the ability to shift while
      stopped at traffic lights or other stops. Just more user friendly
      overall in this environment.

      Rich Wood


      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
      <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
      >
      > So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so its
      a
      > close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old
      rim.
      > Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there
      because
      > Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up til
      the
      > 1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
      > Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs when
      > there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?
      >
      > I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into
      production
      > and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France that
      > would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to derailleurs!
      >
      > Brandon.
      >
      >
      > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
      > <astronut1001@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Brandon;
      > >
      > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
      Sturmey
      > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost
      all
      > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
      > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
      > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
      > >
      > > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
      > > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
      > > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a
      kiwi
      > > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
      > > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it
      sound
      > > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
      > >
      > > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs
      and
      > > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
      > > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
      > > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided immensely
      in
      > > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
      > > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-
      Maillard,
      > > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem to
      be
      > > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
      > >
      > > Rich Wood
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
      > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios
      > > because
      > > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced
      and
      > > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then
      contacted
      > > my
      > > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different brand
      > > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
      > > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
      > > >
      > > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed mine
      > > wasn't
      > > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this was a
      > > hundred
      > > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength riders
      so i
      > > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2 meters.
      > > >
      > > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the
      front
      > > and i
      > > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my hub
      just
      > > kept
      > > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown what
      bike
      > > it
      > > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side of
      the
      > > road.
      > > >
      > > > Brandon.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
      > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Brandon;
      > > > >
      > > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM
      three
      > > speed
      > > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it
      after a
      > > > > minimal Google search.
      > > > >
      > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
      > > > >
      > > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing
      range
      > > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.
      > > > >
      > > > > Rich Wood
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
      > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Brandon;
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
      > > Rohloff 14
      > > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high
      of
      > > > > 110".
      > > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and
      a
      > > high
      > > > > of
      > > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not
      been
      > > > > modified
      > > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high
      > > gear
      > > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use,
      should
      > > be
      > > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good
      knees.
      > > > > Spinning
      > > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the
      joints
      > > and
      > > > > leg
      > > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle
      gear
      > > > > inches
      > > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should
      be
      > > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so
      can
      > > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which
      seems to
      > > me
      > > > > to
      > > > > > be more logical.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Rich Wood
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
      > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Brandon;
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in
      first,
      > > 1.0
      > > > > > in
      > > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to
      high is
      > > > > > 177%.
      > > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+
      years
      > > > > > Sturmey
      > > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
      > > internal
      > > > > > ratios.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
      > > > > chainring
      > > > > > and
      > > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
      > > Generally
      > > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a
      high
      > > gear
      > > > > of
      > > > > > 80"
      > > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of
      around
      > > 45"
      > > > > > which is
      > > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
      > > depending
      > > > > on
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > rider's condition.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to
      300%
      > > for
      > > > > a
      > > > > > two
      > > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and
      an
      > > > > > extreme of
      > > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike
      derailleur
      > > > > > system.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be
      in
      > > the
      > > > > > 100" to
      > > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
      > > derailleur
      > > > > > system
      > > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and
      14
      > > speed
      > > > > > gear
      > > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
      > > > > > comparable to
      > > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer
      8
      > > > > speeds
      > > > > > are
      > > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM
      hub
      > > has a
      > > > > > 340%
      > > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%.
      These
      > > are
      > > > > > much
      > > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
      > > smalller
      > > > > > steps
      > > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and
      greater
      > > > > overall
      > > > > > gear
      > > > > > > ranges.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing
      steeper
      > > hills
      > > > > > while
      > > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the
      flat
      > > and/or
      > > > > > when
      > > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar
      ratios.
      > > All
      > > > > > also
      > > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3
      > > speed
      > > > > > unit
      > > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but
      there
      > > has
      > > > > > been
      > > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since.
      By
      > > > > modern
      > > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
      > > reasonably
      > > > > flat
      > > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent
      condition.
      > > From
      > > > > > an
      > > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite
      marginal
      > > and
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Rich Wood
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
      > > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or
      ratio
      > > > > would
      > > > > > my
      > > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
      > > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on
      a
      > > road
      > > > > > bike vs
      > > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed
      derailleur
      > > system
      > > > > > who
      > > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same
      rider?
      > > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Brandon
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Rich Wood
      Brandon; Two reasons for derailleur gear trains being more popular. Derailleurs took over when the typical gear hub was the 3 speed unit from SA, Sachs or
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 11, 2008
        Brandon;

        Two reasons for derailleur gear trains being more popular.
        Derailleurs took over when the typical gear hub was the 3 speed unit
        from SA, Sachs or Shimano typically fitted to a utility type
        bicycle. A 10 speed derailleur system could be made for the same or
        less money and for the sales people, and many customers, 10 speeds
        sounded sexier han 3. Also racers were using derailleurs.

        Even now you can get a decent derailleur bike for less money than a
        high gear count gear hub bike generally speaking. A lot more
        precision machining and parts in the hub than in a derailleur system.

        Here in the US currently the gear hub is gaining in popularity,
        primarily on lower performance commuter and cruiser type bikes.
        These are typically using Shimano 7 and 8 speed hubs with 3 speeds
        on the bottom end bikes. Virtually all Anerican brands offer
        several bikes in this category.

        One maker ofers a model using the SRAM (originally Sachs) 9 speed
        hub and one offers a bike with the Rohloff hub.

        Sturmey Archer is now owned by a Taiwanese company and is no longer
        common in the US. A few models are imported but distribution seems
        pretty limited. No longer the first choice of manufacturers looking
        to offer a gear hub bike.

        Rich Wood


        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
        <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
        >
        > So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so its
        a
        > close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old
        rim.
        > Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there
        because
        > Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up til
        the
        > 1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
        > Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs when
        > there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?
        >
        > I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into
        production
        > and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France that
        > would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to derailleurs!
        >
        > Brandon.
        >
        >
        > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
        > <astronut1001@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Brandon;
        > >
        > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
        Sturmey
        > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost
        all
        > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
        > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
        > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
        > >
        > > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
        > > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
        > > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a
        kiwi
        > > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
        > > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it
        sound
        > > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
        > >
        > > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs
        and
        > > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
        > > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
        > > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided immensely
        in
        > > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
        > > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-
        Maillard,
        > > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem to
        be
        > > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
        > >
        > > Rich Wood
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
        > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios
        > > because
        > > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced
        and
        > > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then
        contacted
        > > my
        > > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different brand
        > > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
        > > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
        > > >
        > > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed mine
        > > wasn't
        > > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this was a
        > > hundred
        > > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength riders
        so i
        > > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2 meters.
        > > >
        > > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the
        front
        > > and i
        > > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my hub
        just
        > > kept
        > > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown what
        bike
        > > it
        > > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side of
        the
        > > road.
        > > >
        > > > Brandon.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
        > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Brandon;
        > > > >
        > > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM
        three
        > > speed
        > > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it
        after a
        > > > > minimal Google search.
        > > > >
        > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
        > > > >
        > > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing
        range
        > > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.
        > > > >
        > > > > Rich Wood
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
        > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Brandon;
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
        > > Rohloff 14
        > > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high
        of
        > > > > 110".
        > > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and
        a
        > > high
        > > > > of
        > > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not
        been
        > > > > modified
        > > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high
        > > gear
        > > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use,
        should
        > > be
        > > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good
        knees.
        > > > > Spinning
        > > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the
        joints
        > > and
        > > > > leg
        > > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle
        gear
        > > > > inches
        > > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should
        be
        > > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so
        can
        > > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which
        seems to
        > > me
        > > > > to
        > > > > > be more logical.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Rich Wood
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
        > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Brandon;
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in
        first,
        > > 1.0
        > > > > > in
        > > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to
        high is
        > > > > > 177%.
        > > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+
        years
        > > > > > Sturmey
        > > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
        > > internal
        > > > > > ratios.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
        > > > > chainring
        > > > > > and
        > > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
        > > Generally
        > > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a
        high
        > > gear
        > > > > of
        > > > > > 80"
        > > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of
        around
        > > 45"
        > > > > > which is
        > > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
        > > depending
        > > > > on
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > rider's condition.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to
        300%
        > > for
        > > > > a
        > > > > > two
        > > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and
        an
        > > > > > extreme of
        > > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike
        derailleur
        > > > > > system.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be
        in
        > > the
        > > > > > 100" to
        > > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
        > > derailleur
        > > > > > system
        > > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and
        14
        > > speed
        > > > > > gear
        > > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
        > > > > > comparable to
        > > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer
        8
        > > > > speeds
        > > > > > are
        > > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM
        hub
        > > has a
        > > > > > 340%
        > > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%.
        These
        > > are
        > > > > > much
        > > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
        > > smalller
        > > > > > steps
        > > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and
        greater
        > > > > overall
        > > > > > gear
        > > > > > > ranges.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing
        steeper
        > > hills
        > > > > > while
        > > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the
        flat
        > > and/or
        > > > > > when
        > > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar
        ratios.
        > > All
        > > > > > also
        > > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3
        > > speed
        > > > > > unit
        > > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but
        there
        > > has
        > > > > > been
        > > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since.
        By
        > > > > modern
        > > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
        > > reasonably
        > > > > flat
        > > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent
        condition.
        > > From
        > > > > > an
        > > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite
        marginal
        > > and
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Rich Wood
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
        > > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or
        ratio
        > > > > would
        > > > > > my
        > > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
        > > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on
        a
        > > road
        > > > > > bike vs
        > > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed
        derailleur
        > > system
        > > > > > who
        > > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same
        rider?
        > > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Brandon
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • brandon
        I couldn t agree more Rich and i live somewhere you haven t heard of so i will say it is near Byron bay and its not outback terrain like most movies show
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 11, 2008
          I couldn't agree more Rich and i live somewhere you haven't heard of so i will say it is near Byron bay and its not outback terrain like most movies show Australia its very nice here with the beach close and lots of nice potholed roads .
          and the weirdest thing is that on the riverbanks are bamboo so figure that out:-/
          anyway i haven't heard of the rohloff hub before i joined this group can you put a pic of one on a bike i would like to see the setup.

          Thanks.



          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood" <astronut1001@...> wrote:
          >
          > Brandon;
          >
          > I am American and live in Reno, Nevada.
          >
          > SA does do an 8 speed hub though the gear range is wierd compared to
          > Shimano, SRAM and Rohloff gear hubs.
          >
          > Derailleur gear trains are still lighter than the best high gear
          > count hubs, particularly the top end derailleur gear trains using
          > lots of carbon fiber and titanium in addition to aluminum. Remember
          > that in a Tour bike price is not a consideration and they have
          > really top mechanics going over each bike with a microscope on a
          > daily basis.
          >
          > IMO the strengths of a gear hub, properly designed and made, are
          > long term dependability and much less susceptiblity to the effects
          > of mud, dust and bad weather. Also once initial cable stretch is
          > out of the shifter cable they hold adjustment longer than
          > derailleurs.
          >
          > Per the book Bicycling Science, and test figures on the Rohloff web
          > site, the derailleur gear train is very slightly more efficient.
          > This does vary however with the derailleur sprocket selection being
          > used.
          >
          > A rear derailleur is very subject to damage from a fall or other
          > impact from riding in rocky areas such as mountain bikers do
          > routinely. The latest gear hubs from SRAM, Shimano and Rohloff do
          > not have parts which protrude like a derailleur gear train does.
          > This makes them much less susceptible to damage in my opinion.
          >
          > Thorn Bicycles in England makes some really high end adventure and
          > touring bikes. Their designer is a strong proponent of the Rohloff
          > hub. He has used it for rough road touring in Australia, Tasmania
          > and in South America. Rides have included multiple trips over the
          > Andes on dirt and gravel roads to altitudes close to 15,000 feet
          > with no problems from the Rohloff hub. It seems to be virtually
          > unbreakable. To me this is an area of use where a gear hub shines.
          >
          > Also better than derailleur gear trains for use in city riding and
          > traffic due to the faster shifting and the ability to shift while
          > stopped at traffic lights or other stops. Just more user friendly
          > overall in this environment.
          >
          > Rich Wood
          >
          >
          > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
          > rogersbrandon96@ wrote:
          > >
          > > So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so its
          > a
          > > close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old
          > rim.
          > > Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there
          > because
          > > Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up til
          > the
          > > 1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
          > > Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs when
          > > there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?
          > >
          > > I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into
          > production
          > > and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France that
          > > would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to derailleurs!
          > >
          > > Brandon.
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
          > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Brandon;
          > > >
          > > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
          > Sturmey
          > > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost
          > all
          > > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
          > > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
          > > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
          > > >
          > > > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
          > > > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
          > > > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a
          > kiwi
          > > > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
          > > > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it
          > sound
          > > > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
          > > >
          > > > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs
          > and
          > > > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
          > > > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
          > > > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided immensely
          > in
          > > > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
          > > > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-
          > Maillard,
          > > > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem to
          > be
          > > > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
          > > >
          > > > Rich Wood
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
          > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios
          > > > because
          > > > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced
          > and
          > > > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then
          > contacted
          > > > my
          > > > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different brand
          > > > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
          > > > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
          > > > >
          > > > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed mine
          > > > wasn't
          > > > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this was a
          > > > hundred
          > > > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength riders
          > so i
          > > > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2 meters.
          > > > >
          > > > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the
          > front
          > > > and i
          > > > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my hub
          > just
          > > > kept
          > > > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown what
          > bike
          > > > it
          > > > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side of
          > the
          > > > road.
          > > > >
          > > > > Brandon.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
          > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Brandon;
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM
          > three
          > > > speed
          > > > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it
          > after a
          > > > > > minimal Google search.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
          > > > > >
          > > > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing
          > range
          > > > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Rich Wood
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
          > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Brandon;
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
          > > > Rohloff 14
          > > > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high
          > of
          > > > > > 110".
          > > > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and
          > a
          > > > high
          > > > > > of
          > > > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not
          > been
          > > > > > modified
          > > > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high
          > > > gear
          > > > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use,
          > should
          > > > be
          > > > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good
          > knees.
          > > > > > Spinning
          > > > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the
          > joints
          > > > and
          > > > > > leg
          > > > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle
          > gear
          > > > > > inches
          > > > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should
          > be
          > > > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so
          > can
          > > > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which
          > seems to
          > > > me
          > > > > > to
          > > > > > > be more logical.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Rich Wood
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
          > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Brandon;
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in
          > first,
          > > > 1.0
          > > > > > > in
          > > > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to
          > high is
          > > > > > > 177%.
          > > > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+
          > years
          > > > > > > Sturmey
          > > > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
          > > > internal
          > > > > > > ratios.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
          > > > > > chainring
          > > > > > > and
          > > > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
          > > > Generally
          > > > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a
          > high
          > > > gear
          > > > > > of
          > > > > > > 80"
          > > > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of
          > around
          > > > 45"
          > > > > > > which is
          > > > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
          > > > depending
          > > > > > on
          > > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > rider's condition.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to
          > 300%
          > > > for
          > > > > > a
          > > > > > > two
          > > > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and
          > an
          > > > > > > extreme of
          > > > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike
          > derailleur
          > > > > > > system.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be
          > in
          > > > the
          > > > > > > 100" to
          > > > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
          > > > derailleur
          > > > > > > system
          > > > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and
          > 14
          > > > speed
          > > > > > > gear
          > > > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
          > > > > > > comparable to
          > > > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer
          > 8
          > > > > > speeds
          > > > > > > are
          > > > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM
          > hub
          > > > has a
          > > > > > > 340%
          > > > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%.
          > These
          > > > are
          > > > > > > much
          > > > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
          > > > smalller
          > > > > > > steps
          > > > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and
          > greater
          > > > > > overall
          > > > > > > gear
          > > > > > > > ranges.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing
          > steeper
          > > > hills
          > > > > > > while
          > > > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the
          > flat
          > > > and/or
          > > > > > > when
          > > > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar
          > ratios.
          > > > All
          > > > > > > also
          > > > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3
          > > > speed
          > > > > > > unit
          > > > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but
          > there
          > > > has
          > > > > > > been
          > > > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since.
          > By
          > > > > > modern
          > > > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
          > > > reasonably
          > > > > > flat
          > > > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent
          > condition.
          > > > From
          > > > > > > an
          > > > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite
          > marginal
          > > > and
          > > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Rich Wood
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
          > > > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or
          > ratio
          > > > > > would
          > > > > > > my
          > > > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
          > > > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on
          > a
          > > > road
          > > > > > > bike vs
          > > > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed
          > derailleur
          > > > system
          > > > > > > who
          > > > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same
          > rider?
          > > > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Brandon
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Rich Wood
          Brandon; I Googled Byron Bay and looked it up in my atlas. Looks like a resort town about 70 Km south of Surfers Paradise. The Google map also shows the
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 12, 2008
            Brandon;

            I Googled Byron Bay and looked it up in my atlas. Looks like a
            resort town about 70 Km south of Surfers Paradise. The Google map
            also shows the surrounding towns. Which is yours? There is also a
            Wikipedia entry for Byron Bay I read. Sounds like a nice area.

            Rich Wood


            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
            <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
            >
            > I couldn't agree more Rich and i live somewhere you haven't heard
            of so
            > i will say it is near Byron bay and its not outback terrain like
            most
            > movies show Australia its very nice here with the beach close and
            lots
            > of nice potholed roads .
            > and the weirdest thing is that on the riverbanks are bamboo so
            figure
            > that out [:-/]
            > anyway i haven't heard of the rohloff hub before i joined this
            group can
            > you put a pic of one on a bike i would like to see the setup.
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
            <astronut1001@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Brandon;
            > >
            > > I am American and live in Reno, Nevada.
            > >
            > > SA does do an 8 speed hub though the gear range is wierd
            compared to
            > > Shimano, SRAM and Rohloff gear hubs.
            > >
            > > Derailleur gear trains are still lighter than the best high gear
            > > count hubs, particularly the top end derailleur gear trains using
            > > lots of carbon fiber and titanium in addition to aluminum.
            Remember
            > > that in a Tour bike price is not a consideration and they have
            > > really top mechanics going over each bike with a microscope on a
            > > daily basis.
            > >
            > > IMO the strengths of a gear hub, properly designed and made, are
            > > long term dependability and much less susceptiblity to the
            effects
            > > of mud, dust and bad weather. Also once initial cable stretch is
            > > out of the shifter cable they hold adjustment longer than
            > > derailleurs.
            > >
            > > Per the book Bicycling Science, and test figures on the Rohloff
            web
            > > site, the derailleur gear train is very slightly more efficient.
            > > This does vary however with the derailleur sprocket selection
            being
            > > used.
            > >
            > > A rear derailleur is very subject to damage from a fall or other
            > > impact from riding in rocky areas such as mountain bikers do
            > > routinely. The latest gear hubs from SRAM, Shimano and Rohloff
            do
            > > not have parts which protrude like a derailleur gear train does.
            > > This makes them much less susceptible to damage in my opinion.
            > >
            > > Thorn Bicycles in England makes some really high end adventure
            and
            > > touring bikes. Their designer is a strong proponent of the
            Rohloff
            > > hub. He has used it for rough road touring in Australia,
            Tasmania
            > > and in South America. Rides have included multiple trips over
            the
            > > Andes on dirt and gravel roads to altitudes close to 15,000 feet
            > > with no problems from the Rohloff hub. It seems to be virtually
            > > unbreakable. To me this is an area of use where a gear hub
            shines.
            > >
            > > Also better than derailleur gear trains for use in city riding
            and
            > > traffic due to the faster shifting and the ability to shift while
            > > stopped at traffic lights or other stops. Just more user
            friendly
            > > overall in this environment.
            > >
            > > Rich Wood
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
            > > rogersbrandon96@ wrote:
            > > >
            > > > So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so
            its
            > > a
            > > > close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old
            > > rim.
            > > > Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there
            > > because
            > > > Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up
            til
            > > the
            > > > 1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
            > > > Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs
            when
            > > > there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?
            > > >
            > > > I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into
            > > production
            > > > and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France
            that
            > > > would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to
            derailleurs!
            > > >
            > > > Brandon.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
            > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Brandon;
            > > > >
            > > > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
            > > Sturmey
            > > > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use.
            Almost
            > > all
            > > > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
            > > > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for
            just
            > > > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
            > > > >
            > > > > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
            > > > > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
            > > > > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a
            > > kiwi
            > > > > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
            > > > > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it
            > > sound
            > > > > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
            > > > >
            > > > > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs
            > > and
            > > > > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
            > > > > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
            > > > > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided
            immensely
            > > in
            > > > > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
            > > > > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-
            > > Maillard,
            > > > > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem
            to
            > > be
            > > > > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
            > > > >
            > > > > Rich Wood
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
            > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear
            ratios
            > > > > because
            > > > > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i
            laced
            > > and
            > > > > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then
            > > contacted
            > > > > my
            > > > > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different
            brand
            > > > > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
            > > > > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
            > > > > >
            > > > > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed
            mine
            > > > > wasn't
            > > > > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this
            was a
            > > > > hundred
            > > > > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength
            riders
            > > so i
            > > > > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2
            meters.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the
            > > front
            > > > > and i
            > > > > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my
            hub
            > > just
            > > > > kept
            > > > > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown
            what
            > > bike
            > > > > it
            > > > > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side
            of
            > > the
            > > > > road.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Brandon.
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
            > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Brandon;
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM
            > > three
            > > > > speed
            > > > > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it
            > > after a
            > > > > > > minimal Google search.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing
            > > range
            > > > > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW
            hub.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Rich Wood
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
            > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Brandon;
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
            > > > > Rohloff 14
            > > > > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a
            high
            > > of
            > > > > > > 110".
            > > > > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27"
            and
            > > a
            > > > > high
            > > > > > > of
            > > > > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not
            > > been
            > > > > > > modified
            > > > > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a
            high
            > > > > gear
            > > > > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use,
            > > should
            > > > > be
            > > > > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good
            > > knees.
            > > > > > > Spinning
            > > > > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the
            > > joints
            > > > > and
            > > > > > > leg
            > > > > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of
            bicycle
            > > gear
            > > > > > > inches
            > > > > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO
            should
            > > be
            > > > > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it,
            and so
            > > can
            > > > > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which
            > > seems to
            > > > > me
            > > > > > > to
            > > > > > > > be more logical.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Rich Wood
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
            > > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > Brandon;
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in
            > > first,
            > > > > 1.0
            > > > > > > > in
            > > > > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to
            > > high is
            > > > > > > > 177%.
            > > > > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+
            > > years
            > > > > > > > Sturmey
            > > > > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
            > > > > internal
            > > > > > > > ratios.
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined
            by
            > > > > > > chainring
            > > > > > > > and
            > > > > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
            > > > > Generally
            > > > > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a
            > > high
            > > > > gear
            > > > > > > of
            > > > > > > > 80"
            > > > > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of
            > > around
            > > > > 45"
            > > > > > > > which is
            > > > > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
            > > > > depending
            > > > > > > on
            > > > > > > > the
            > > > > > > > > rider's condition.
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250%
            to
            > > 300%
            > > > > for
            > > > > > > a
            > > > > > > > two
            > > > > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%,
            and
            > > an
            > > > > > > > extreme of
            > > > > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike
            > > derailleur
            > > > > > > > system.
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to
            be
            > > in
            > > > > the
            > > > > > > > 100" to
            > > > > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
            > > > > derailleur
            > > > > > > > system
            > > > > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9
            and
            > > 14
            > > > > speed
            > > > > > > > gear
            > > > > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear
            ranges
            > > > > > > > comparable to
            > > > > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey
            Archer
            > > 8
            > > > > > > speeds
            > > > > > > > are
            > > > > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed
            SRAM
            > > hub
            > > > > has a
            > > > > > > > 340%
            > > > > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%.
            > > These
            > > > > are
            > > > > > > > much
            > > > > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
            > > > > smalller
            > > > > > > > steps
            > > > > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and
            > > greater
            > > > > > > overall
            > > > > > > > gear
            > > > > > > > > ranges.
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing
            > > steeper
            > > > > hills
            > > > > > > > while
            > > > > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the
            > > flat
            > > > > and/or
            > > > > > > > when
            > > > > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar
            > > ratios.
            > > > > All
            > > > > > > > also
            > > > > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey
            Archer 3
            > > > > speed
            > > > > > > > unit
            > > > > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but
            > > there
            > > > > has
            > > > > > > > been
            > > > > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs
            since.
            > > By
            > > > > > > modern
            > > > > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
            > > > > reasonably
            > > > > > > flat
            > > > > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent
            > > condition.
            > > > > From
            > > > > > > > an
            > > > > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite
            > > marginal
            > > > > and
            > > > > > > > the
            > > > > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > Rich Wood
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
            > > > > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or
            > > ratio
            > > > > > > would
            > > > > > > > my
            > > > > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur
            system?
            > > > > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub
            installed on
            > > a
            > > > > road
            > > > > > > > bike vs
            > > > > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed
            > > derailleur
            > > > > system
            > > > > > > > who
            > > > > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same
            > > rider?
            > > > > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > Brandon
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • brandon
            My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn t know they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs. The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 12, 2008
              My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn't know
              they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs.

              The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you like it a very
              amazing bit of machinery i wouldn't mind one myself.

              My hub didn't have wing nuts when i got it because it didn't have any
              nuts on it so it could have had wing nuts it is made in England and is
              genuine.

              I have a couple of sturmey archers i will put one on here have a look
              in my Sturmey archer folder.

              Surfers paradise is a great place to ride i can drive there on the
              pacific highway and it takes about 1 hour but ballina is one very nice
              place to ride with plenty of bike paths and is flat and best of all it
              is next to the beach.

              i also collect vintage bicycles i have a 1969 SA S5 hub with two
              cables one one side is the classic indicator chain and on the left
              side is a shimano type push rod changer it pushes a thin rod into the
              hub to change gears i have completely rebuilt it and it is a extremely
              good hub.

              Brandon.


              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
              <astronut1001@...> wrote:
              >
              > Brandon;
              >
              > I Googled Byron Bay and looked it up in my atlas. Looks like a
              > resort town about 70 Km south of Surfers Paradise. The Google map
              > also shows the surrounding towns. Which is yours? There is also a
              > Wikipedia entry for Byron Bay I read. Sounds like a nice area.
              >
              > Rich Wood
              >
              >
              > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
              > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I couldn't agree more Rich and i live somewhere you haven't heard
              > of so
              > > i will say it is near Byron bay and its not outback terrain like
              > most
              > > movies show Australia its very nice here with the beach close and
              > lots
              > > of nice potholed roads .
              > > and the weirdest thing is that on the riverbanks are bamboo so
              > figure
              > > that out [:-/]
              > > anyway i haven't heard of the rohloff hub before i joined this
              > group can
              > > you put a pic of one on a bike i would like to see the setup.
              > >
              > > Thanks.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
              > <astronut1001@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Brandon;
              > > >
              > > > I am American and live in Reno, Nevada.
              > > >
              > > > SA does do an 8 speed hub though the gear range is wierd
              > compared to
              > > > Shimano, SRAM and Rohloff gear hubs.
              > > >
              > > > Derailleur gear trains are still lighter than the best high gear
              > > > count hubs, particularly the top end derailleur gear trains using
              > > > lots of carbon fiber and titanium in addition to aluminum.
              > Remember
              > > > that in a Tour bike price is not a consideration and they have
              > > > really top mechanics going over each bike with a microscope on a
              > > > daily basis.
              > > >
              > > > IMO the strengths of a gear hub, properly designed and made, are
              > > > long term dependability and much less susceptiblity to the
              > effects
              > > > of mud, dust and bad weather. Also once initial cable stretch is
              > > > out of the shifter cable they hold adjustment longer than
              > > > derailleurs.
              > > >
              > > > Per the book Bicycling Science, and test figures on the Rohloff
              > web
              > > > site, the derailleur gear train is very slightly more efficient.
              > > > This does vary however with the derailleur sprocket selection
              > being
              > > > used.
              > > >
              > > > A rear derailleur is very subject to damage from a fall or other
              > > > impact from riding in rocky areas such as mountain bikers do
              > > > routinely. The latest gear hubs from SRAM, Shimano and Rohloff
              > do
              > > > not have parts which protrude like a derailleur gear train does.
              > > > This makes them much less susceptible to damage in my opinion.
              > > >
              > > > Thorn Bicycles in England makes some really high end adventure
              > and
              > > > touring bikes. Their designer is a strong proponent of the
              > Rohloff
              > > > hub. He has used it for rough road touring in Australia,
              > Tasmania
              > > > and in South America. Rides have included multiple trips over
              > the
              > > > Andes on dirt and gravel roads to altitudes close to 15,000 feet
              > > > with no problems from the Rohloff hub. It seems to be virtually
              > > > unbreakable. To me this is an area of use where a gear hub
              > shines.
              > > >
              > > > Also better than derailleur gear trains for use in city riding
              > and
              > > > traffic due to the faster shifting and the ability to shift while
              > > > stopped at traffic lights or other stops. Just more user
              > friendly
              > > > overall in this environment.
              > > >
              > > > Rich Wood
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
              > > > rogersbrandon96@ wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so
              > its
              > > > a
              > > > > close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old
              > > > rim.
              > > > > Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there
              > > > because
              > > > > Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up
              > til
              > > > the
              > > > > 1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
              > > > > Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs
              > when
              > > > > there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?
              > > > >
              > > > > I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into
              > > > production
              > > > > and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France
              > that
              > > > > would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to
              > derailleurs!
              > > > >
              > > > > Brandon.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
              > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Brandon;
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
              > > > Sturmey
              > > > > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use.
              > Almost
              > > > all
              > > > > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
              > > > > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for
              > just
              > > > > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
              > > > > > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
              > > > > > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a
              > > > kiwi
              > > > > > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
              > > > > > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it
              > > > sound
              > > > > > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs
              > > > and
              > > > > > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
              > > > > > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
              > > > > > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided
              > immensely
              > > > in
              > > > > > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
              > > > > > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-
              > > > Maillard,
              > > > > > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem
              > to
              > > > be
              > > > > > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Rich Wood
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
              > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear
              > ratios
              > > > > > because
              > > > > > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i
              > laced
              > > > and
              > > > > > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then
              > > > contacted
              > > > > > my
              > > > > > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different
              > brand
              > > > > > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
              > > > > > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed
              > mine
              > > > > > wasn't
              > > > > > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this
              > was a
              > > > > > hundred
              > > > > > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength
              > riders
              > > > so i
              > > > > > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2
              > meters.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the
              > > > front
              > > > > > and i
              > > > > > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my
              > hub
              > > > just
              > > > > > kept
              > > > > > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown
              > what
              > > > bike
              > > > > > it
              > > > > > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side
              > of
              > > > the
              > > > > > road.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Brandon.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
              > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Brandon;
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM
              > > > three
              > > > > > speed
              > > > > > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it
              > > > after a
              > > > > > > > minimal Google search.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing
              > > > range
              > > > > > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW
              > hub.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Rich Wood
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
              > > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > Brandon;
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
              > > > > > Rohloff 14
              > > > > > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a
              > high
              > > > of
              > > > > > > > 110".
              > > > > > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27"
              > and
              > > > a
              > > > > > high
              > > > > > > > of
              > > > > > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not
              > > > been
              > > > > > > > modified
              > > > > > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a
              > high
              > > > > > gear
              > > > > > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use,
              > > > should
              > > > > > be
              > > > > > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good
              > > > knees.
              > > > > > > > Spinning
              > > > > > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the
              > > > joints
              > > > > > and
              > > > > > > > leg
              > > > > > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of
              > bicycle
              > > > gear
              > > > > > > > inches
              > > > > > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO
              > should
              > > > be
              > > > > > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it,
              > and so
              > > > can
              > > > > > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which
              > > > seems to
              > > > > > me
              > > > > > > > to
              > > > > > > > > be more logical.
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > Rich Wood
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
              > > > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > Brandon;
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in
              > > > first,
              > > > > > 1.0
              > > > > > > > > in
              > > > > > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to
              > > > high is
              > > > > > > > > 177%.
              > > > > > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+
              > > > years
              > > > > > > > > Sturmey
              > > > > > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
              > > > > > internal
              > > > > > > > > ratios.
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined
              > by
              > > > > > > > chainring
              > > > > > > > > and
              > > > > > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
              > > > > > Generally
              > > > > > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a
              > > > high
              > > > > > gear
              > > > > > > > of
              > > > > > > > > 80"
              > > > > > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of
              > > > around
              > > > > > 45"
              > > > > > > > > which is
              > > > > > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
              > > > > > depending
              > > > > > > > on
              > > > > > > > > the
              > > > > > > > > > rider's condition.
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250%
              > to
              > > > 300%
              > > > > > for
              > > > > > > > a
              > > > > > > > > two
              > > > > > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%,
              > and
              > > > an
              > > > > > > > > extreme of
              > > > > > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike
              > > > derailleur
              > > > > > > > > system.
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to
              > be
              > > > in
              > > > > > the
              > > > > > > > > 100" to
              > > > > > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
              > > > > > derailleur
              > > > > > > > > system
              > > > > > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9
              > and
              > > > 14
              > > > > > speed
              > > > > > > > > gear
              > > > > > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear
              > ranges
              > > > > > > > > comparable to
              > > > > > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey
              > Archer
              > > > 8
              > > > > > > > speeds
              > > > > > > > > are
              > > > > > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed
              > SRAM
              > > > hub
              > > > > > has a
              > > > > > > > > 340%
              > > > > > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%.
              > > > These
              > > > > > are
              > > > > > > > > much
              > > > > > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
              > > > > > smalller
              > > > > > > > > steps
              > > > > > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and
              > > > greater
              > > > > > > > overall
              > > > > > > > > gear
              > > > > > > > > > ranges.
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing
              > > > steeper
              > > > > > hills
              > > > > > > > > while
              > > > > > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the
              > > > flat
              > > > > > and/or
              > > > > > > > > when
              > > > > > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar
              > > > ratios.
              > > > > > All
              > > > > > > > > also
              > > > > > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey
              > Archer 3
              > > > > > speed
              > > > > > > > > unit
              > > > > > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but
              > > > there
              > > > > > has
              > > > > > > > > been
              > > > > > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs
              > since.
              > > > By
              > > > > > > > modern
              > > > > > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
              > > > > > reasonably
              > > > > > > > flat
              > > > > > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent
              > > > condition.
              > > > > > From
              > > > > > > > > an
              > > > > > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite
              > > > marginal
              > > > > > and
              > > > > > > > > the
              > > > > > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > Rich Wood
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
              > > > > > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
              > > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or
              > > > ratio
              > > > > > > > would
              > > > > > > > > my
              > > > > > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur
              > system?
              > > > > > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub
              > installed on
              > > > a
              > > > > > road
              > > > > > > > > bike vs
              > > > > > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed
              > > > derailleur
              > > > > > system
              > > > > > > > > who
              > > > > > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same
              > > > rider?
              > > > > > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
              > > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > > Brandon
              > > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Rich Wood
              Brandon; Rohloff, Shimano, Sturmey Archer and SRAM all now have some hub versions that can have brake discs mounted per their web sites. Disc brake calipers
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 12, 2008
                Brandon;

                Rohloff, Shimano, Sturmey Archer and SRAM all now have some hub
                versions that can have brake discs mounted per their web sites.
                Disc brake calipers still need special caliper mounting provisions
                on the frame and front forks however.

                Disc brakes are much better working than rim brakes in wet weather.
                This is particularly true of rim brakes and the old steel rims, a
                bad combination in the wet with most caliper brake pad materials.

                Heavier than caliper brakes but no rim wear or worries about tires
                overheating in long downhill descents. Disc brakes are becoming
                commoner on commuter and city bikes in the U.S. due to their better
                wet weather performance. Also very common on better mountain bikes.

                If you take a look at the Sturmey Archer web site they still list 3,
                5 and 8 speed hubs in quite a variety. No idea of availability down
                under however. Here is a link to the hubs on the current SA web
                site.

                http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs.php

                Rohloff does have an Aussie branch. Here is a link to it.

                http://www.rohloff.com.au/

                Not nearly as complete as the Rohloff main site as some links seem
                to be not functional on the Aussie site. If you are truly
                interested in Rohloff hubs go to the main site and download the
                manual in PDF format, a total of about 132 pages. It is in 3 parts
                in PDF format. Here is a link to their downloads page. If nothing
                else it is an interesting read if you are a technofreak.

                http://www.rohloff.de/en/download/description/index.html#c1453

                Rich Wood


                --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
                >
                > My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn't know
                > they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs.
                >
                > The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you like it a very
                > amazing bit of machinery i wouldn't mind one myself.
                >
                > My hub didn't have wing nuts when i got it because it didn't have
                any
                > nuts on it so it could have had wing nuts it is made in England
                and is
                > genuine.
                >
                > I have a couple of sturmey archers i will put one on here have a
                look
                > in my Sturmey archer folder.
                >
                > Surfers paradise is a great place to ride i can drive there on the
                > pacific highway and it takes about 1 hour but ballina is one very
                nice
                > place to ride with plenty of bike paths and is flat and best of
                all it
                > is next to the beach.
                >
                > i also collect vintage bicycles i have a 1969 SA S5 hub with two
                > cables one one side is the classic indicator chain and on the left
                > side is a shimano type push rod changer it pushes a thin rod into
                the
                > hub to change gears i have completely rebuilt it and it is a
                extremely
                > good hub.
                >
                > Brandon.
                >
                >
              • brandon
                Disc brakes are expensive but effective on mountain bikes and yes i would prefer to have disc brakes on my bike in the wet also have you heard of the old S5
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 12, 2008
                  Disc brakes are expensive but effective on mountain bikes and yes i
                  would prefer to have disc brakes on my bike in the wet also have you
                  heard of the old S5 rich?, its a interesting hub used on 1970s
                  dragsters and touring bikes.
                  I would like a rohloff but they are from a bike review site $850!
                  probably worth it but with the same money i could buy a brand new
                  giant road bike and have a shimano nexus hub installed on it.

                  Brandon.



                  --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                  <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Brandon;
                  >
                  > Rohloff, Shimano, Sturmey Archer and SRAM all now have some hub
                  > versions that can have brake discs mounted per their web sites.
                  > Disc brake calipers still need special caliper mounting provisions
                  > on the frame and front forks however.
                  >
                  > Disc brakes are much better working than rim brakes in wet weather.
                  > This is particularly true of rim brakes and the old steel rims, a
                  > bad combination in the wet with most caliper brake pad materials.
                  >
                  > Heavier than caliper brakes but no rim wear or worries about tires
                  > overheating in long downhill descents. Disc brakes are becoming
                  > commoner on commuter and city bikes in the U.S. due to their better
                  > wet weather performance. Also very common on better mountain bikes.
                  >
                  > If you take a look at the Sturmey Archer web site they still list 3,
                  > 5 and 8 speed hubs in quite a variety. No idea of availability down
                  > under however. Here is a link to the hubs on the current SA web
                  > site.
                  >
                  > http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs.php
                  >
                  > Rohloff does have an Aussie branch. Here is a link to it.
                  >
                  > http://www.rohloff.com.au/
                  >
                  > Not nearly as complete as the Rohloff main site as some links seem
                  > to be not functional on the Aussie site. If you are truly
                  > interested in Rohloff hubs go to the main site and download the
                  > manual in PDF format, a total of about 132 pages. It is in 3 parts
                  > in PDF format. Here is a link to their downloads page. If nothing
                  > else it is an interesting read if you are a technofreak.
                  >
                  > http://www.rohloff.de/en/download/description/index.html#c1453
                  >
                  > Rich Wood
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                  > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn't know
                  > > they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs.
                  > >
                  > > The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you like it a very
                  > > amazing bit of machinery i wouldn't mind one myself.
                  > >
                  > > My hub didn't have wing nuts when i got it because it didn't have
                  > any
                  > > nuts on it so it could have had wing nuts it is made in England
                  > and is
                  > > genuine.
                  > >
                  > > I have a couple of sturmey archers i will put one on here have a
                  > look
                  > > in my Sturmey archer folder.
                  > >
                  > > Surfers paradise is a great place to ride i can drive there on the
                  > > pacific highway and it takes about 1 hour but ballina is one very
                  > nice
                  > > place to ride with plenty of bike paths and is flat and best of
                  > all it
                  > > is next to the beach.
                  > >
                  > > i also collect vintage bicycles i have a 1969 SA S5 hub with two
                  > > cables one one side is the classic indicator chain and on the left
                  > > side is a shimano type push rod changer it pushes a thin rod into
                  > the
                  > > hub to change gears i have completely rebuilt it and it is a
                  > extremely
                  > > good hub.
                  > >
                  > > Brandon.
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Rich Wood
                  Brandon; Not sure if it is the same unit but the Sturmey Archer web site still lists an S5 model gear hub. Probably not as it looks like the current S5 has a
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 13, 2008
                    Brandon;

                    Not sure if it is the same unit but the Sturmey Archer web site
                    still lists an S5 model gear hub. Probably not as it looks like the
                    current S5 has a single cable control. Heard of it but I have never
                    seen one.

                    With the weak U.S. dollar the Rohloff hub is now in the $1200 to
                    $1500 range here depending on configuration.

                    Basically I consider it to be the Campy Record or Shimano Dura Ace
                    hub equivalent or maybe, considering it's gear range, the Shimano
                    XTR of hubs. By reputation more durable than any of the above
                    however. According to a PDF on the Thorn bikes web site about use
                    of the hub, one owner has reportedly covered 190,000 Km on his
                    Rohloff hub without failure, not counting cables and output
                    sprockets I would presume. Not sure how many derailleurs, casettes
                    and chainrings you would go through in that distance but I suspect a
                    lot.

                    When you look at the top end Shimano and Campy derailleur setups
                    with derailleurs, combined brake and shifter levers along with rear
                    hub and casette the Rohloff price does not appear too bad. A recent
                    price check I did showed the Campy Record rear derailleur at over
                    $400 and the brifters at about $600 U.S.

                    I am thinking of getting the SRAM 5 speed hub and building a wheel
                    for my fixed gear bike frame. I currently have the fixed gear wheel
                    and a older Sachs 3 speed wheel for it. The SRAM unit is available
                    with the proper width to fit the narrow frame dropouts well.

                    Rich Wood


                    --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                    <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Disc brakes are expensive but effective on mountain bikes and yes i
                    > would prefer to have disc brakes on my bike in the wet also have
                    you
                    > heard of the old S5 rich?, its a interesting hub used on 1970s
                    > dragsters and touring bikes.
                    > I would like a rohloff but they are from a bike review site $850!
                    > probably worth it but with the same money i could buy a brand new
                    > giant road bike and have a shimano nexus hub installed on it.
                    >
                    > Brandon.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                    > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Brandon;
                    > >
                    > > Rohloff, Shimano, Sturmey Archer and SRAM all now have some hub
                    > > versions that can have brake discs mounted per their web sites.
                    > > Disc brake calipers still need special caliper mounting
                    provisions
                    > > on the frame and front forks however.
                    > >
                    > > Disc brakes are much better working than rim brakes in wet
                    weather.
                    > > This is particularly true of rim brakes and the old steel rims,
                    a
                    > > bad combination in the wet with most caliper brake pad
                    materials.
                    > >
                    > > Heavier than caliper brakes but no rim wear or worries about
                    tires
                    > > overheating in long downhill descents. Disc brakes are becoming
                    > > commoner on commuter and city bikes in the U.S. due to their
                    better
                    > > wet weather performance. Also very common on better mountain
                    bikes.
                    > >
                    > > If you take a look at the Sturmey Archer web site they still
                    list 3,
                    > > 5 and 8 speed hubs in quite a variety. No idea of availability
                    down
                    > > under however. Here is a link to the hubs on the current SA web
                    > > site.
                    > >
                    > > http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs.php
                    > >
                    > > Rohloff does have an Aussie branch. Here is a link to it.
                    > >
                    > > http://www.rohloff.com.au/
                    > >
                    > > Not nearly as complete as the Rohloff main site as some links
                    seem
                    > > to be not functional on the Aussie site. If you are truly
                    > > interested in Rohloff hubs go to the main site and download the
                    > > manual in PDF format, a total of about 132 pages. It is in 3
                    parts
                    > > in PDF format. Here is a link to their downloads page. If
                    nothing
                    > > else it is an interesting read if you are a technofreak.
                    > >
                    > > http://www.rohloff.de/en/download/description/index.html#c1453
                    > >
                    > > Rich Wood
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                    > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn't
                    know
                    > > > they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs.
                    > > >
                    > > > The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you like it a very
                    > > > amazing bit of machinery i wouldn't mind one myself.
                    > > >
                    > > > My hub didn't have wing nuts when i got it because it didn't
                    have
                    > > any
                    > > > nuts on it so it could have had wing nuts it is made in
                    England
                    > > and is
                    > > > genuine.
                    > > >
                    > > > I have a couple of sturmey archers i will put one on here have
                    a
                    > > look
                    > > > in my Sturmey archer folder.
                    > > >
                    > > > Surfers paradise is a great place to ride i can drive there on
                    the
                    > > > pacific highway and it takes about 1 hour but ballina is one
                    very
                    > > nice
                    > > > place to ride with plenty of bike paths and is flat and best
                    of
                    > > all it
                    > > > is next to the beach.
                    > > >
                    > > > i also collect vintage bicycles i have a 1969 SA S5 hub with
                    two
                    > > > cables one one side is the classic indicator chain and on the
                    left
                    > > > side is a shimano type push rod changer it pushes a thin rod
                    into
                    > > the
                    > > > hub to change gears i have completely rebuilt it and it is a
                    > > extremely
                    > > > good hub.
                    > > >
                    > > > Brandon.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • brandon
                    I am putting a picture of my S5 on here. Brandon.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 13, 2008
                      I am putting a picture of my S5 on here.

                      Brandon.
                      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                      <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Brandon;
                      >
                      > Not sure if it is the same unit but the Sturmey Archer web site
                      > still lists an S5 model gear hub. Probably not as it looks like the
                      > current S5 has a single cable control. Heard of it but I have never
                      > seen one.
                      >
                      > With the weak U.S. dollar the Rohloff hub is now in the $1200 to
                      > $1500 range here depending on configuration.
                      >
                      > Basically I consider it to be the Campy Record or Shimano Dura Ace
                      > hub equivalent or maybe, considering it's gear range, the Shimano
                      > XTR of hubs. By reputation more durable than any of the above
                      > however. According to a PDF on the Thorn bikes web site about use
                      > of the hub, one owner has reportedly covered 190,000 Km on his
                      > Rohloff hub without failure, not counting cables and output
                      > sprockets I would presume. Not sure how many derailleurs, casettes
                      > and chainrings you would go through in that distance but I suspect a
                      > lot.
                      >
                      > When you look at the top end Shimano and Campy derailleur setups
                      > with derailleurs, combined brake and shifter levers along with rear
                      > hub and casette the Rohloff price does not appear too bad. A recent
                      > price check I did showed the Campy Record rear derailleur at over
                      > $400 and the brifters at about $600 U.S.
                      >
                      > I am thinking of getting the SRAM 5 speed hub and building a wheel
                      > for my fixed gear bike frame. I currently have the fixed gear wheel
                      > and a older Sachs 3 speed wheel for it. The SRAM unit is available
                      > with the proper width to fit the narrow frame dropouts well.
                      >
                      > Rich Wood
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                      > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Disc brakes are expensive but effective on mountain bikes and yes i
                      > > would prefer to have disc brakes on my bike in the wet also have
                      > you
                      > > heard of the old S5 rich?, its a interesting hub used on 1970s
                      > > dragsters and touring bikes.
                      > > I would like a rohloff but they are from a bike review site $850!
                      > > probably worth it but with the same money i could buy a brand new
                      > > giant road bike and have a shimano nexus hub installed on it.
                      > >
                      > > Brandon.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                      > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Brandon;
                      > > >
                      > > > Rohloff, Shimano, Sturmey Archer and SRAM all now have some hub
                      > > > versions that can have brake discs mounted per their web sites.
                      > > > Disc brake calipers still need special caliper mounting
                      > provisions
                      > > > on the frame and front forks however.
                      > > >
                      > > > Disc brakes are much better working than rim brakes in wet
                      > weather.
                      > > > This is particularly true of rim brakes and the old steel rims,
                      > a
                      > > > bad combination in the wet with most caliper brake pad
                      > materials.
                      > > >
                      > > > Heavier than caliper brakes but no rim wear or worries about
                      > tires
                      > > > overheating in long downhill descents. Disc brakes are becoming
                      > > > commoner on commuter and city bikes in the U.S. due to their
                      > better
                      > > > wet weather performance. Also very common on better mountain
                      > bikes.
                      > > >
                      > > > If you take a look at the Sturmey Archer web site they still
                      > list 3,
                      > > > 5 and 8 speed hubs in quite a variety. No idea of availability
                      > down
                      > > > under however. Here is a link to the hubs on the current SA web
                      > > > site.
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs.php
                      > > >
                      > > > Rohloff does have an Aussie branch. Here is a link to it.
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.rohloff.com.au/
                      > > >
                      > > > Not nearly as complete as the Rohloff main site as some links
                      > seem
                      > > > to be not functional on the Aussie site. If you are truly
                      > > > interested in Rohloff hubs go to the main site and download the
                      > > > manual in PDF format, a total of about 132 pages. It is in 3
                      > parts
                      > > > in PDF format. Here is a link to their downloads page. If
                      > nothing
                      > > > else it is an interesting read if you are a technofreak.
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.rohloff.de/en/download/description/index.html#c1453
                      > > >
                      > > > Rich Wood
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                      > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn't
                      > know
                      > > > > they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you like it a very
                      > > > > amazing bit of machinery i wouldn't mind one myself.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > My hub didn't have wing nuts when i got it because it didn't
                      > have
                      > > > any
                      > > > > nuts on it so it could have had wing nuts it is made in
                      > England
                      > > > and is
                      > > > > genuine.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I have a couple of sturmey archers i will put one on here have
                      > a
                      > > > look
                      > > > > in my Sturmey archer folder.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Surfers paradise is a great place to ride i can drive there on
                      > the
                      > > > > pacific highway and it takes about 1 hour but ballina is one
                      > very
                      > > > nice
                      > > > > place to ride with plenty of bike paths and is flat and best
                      > of
                      > > > all it
                      > > > > is next to the beach.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > i also collect vintage bicycles i have a 1969 SA S5 hub with
                      > two
                      > > > > cables one one side is the classic indicator chain and on the
                      > left
                      > > > > side is a shimano type push rod changer it pushes a thin rod
                      > into
                      > > > the
                      > > > > hub to change gears i have completely rebuilt it and it is a
                      > > > extremely
                      > > > > good hub.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Brandon.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Mark Stonich
                      ... While I m sure some were raced, the AM was intended for the non-competitive sporting rider. The AC and earlier AR had much closer ratios and were better
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 21, 2008
                        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                        > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare Sturmey
                        > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost all
                        > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                        > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                        > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.

                        While I'm sure some were raced, the AM was intended for the
                        non-competitive sporting rider. The AC and earlier AR had much closer
                        ratios and were better suited for TTs.

                        Looking at the exploded views on Hadland's site The AM appears to be
                        much more robust. Much the same design as the FW & S5. One of the
                        guys on our Saturday rides uses an AM, even when we go off-road. And
                        we've had a few on the Lake Pepin event.
                      • Mike Bullis
                        I ve been inside my AM once or twice and I would have guessed I was looking at the guts of an FW or S5, except for the lack of a secondary sun gear. Got
                        Message 11 of 20 , Nov 21, 2008
                          I've been inside my AM once or twice and I would have guessed I was looking at the guts of an FW or S5, except for the lack of a secondary sun gear. Got lucky recently when I bought a box of parts and there were a few AM and few FW shift rods in it.

                          --- On Fri, 11/21/08, Mark Stonich <mark@...> wrote:
                          From: Mark Stonich <mark@...>
                          Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Sturmey archer question
                          To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Friday, November 21, 2008, 7:39 PM

                          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@ yahoogroups. com, "Rich Wood"
                          > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare Sturmey
                          > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost all
                          > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                          > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                          > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.

                          While I'm sure some were raced, the AM was intended for the
                          non-competitive sporting rider. The AC and earlier AR had much closer
                          ratios and were better suited for TTs.

                          Looking at the exploded views on Hadland's site The AM appears to be
                          much more robust. Much the same design as the FW & S5. One of the
                          guys on our Saturday rides uses an AM, even when we go off-road. And
                          we've had a few on the Lake Pepin event.


                        • Rich Wood
                          Mark; Were virtually all British TTs reasonably flat? I remember a TDF TT that was held on Alp d Huez as I recall. ;-) Rich Wood ... Sturmey ... all ...
                          Message 12 of 20 , Nov 22, 2008
                            Mark;

                            Were virtually all British TTs reasonably flat? I remember a TDF TT
                            that was held on Alp d'Huez as I recall. ;-)

                            Rich Wood


                            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Stonich" <mark@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                            > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
                            Sturmey
                            > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost
                            all
                            > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                            > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                            > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
                            >
                            > While I'm sure some were raced, the AM was intended for the
                            > non-competitive sporting rider. The AC and earlier AR had much
                            closer
                            > ratios and were better suited for TTs.
                            >
                            > Looking at the exploded views on Hadland's site The AM appears to
                            be
                            > much more robust. Much the same design as the FW & S5. One of the
                            > guys on our Saturday rides uses an AM, even when we go off-road.
                            And
                            > we've had a few on the Lake Pepin event.
                            >
                          • Mark Stonich
                            ... I don t know about virtually all but there was a tendency to design courses that would produce fast times. Such as using the shoulders of busy motorways
                            Message 13 of 20 , Nov 25, 2008
                              At 11:59 AM 11/22/2008, you wrote:
                              >Were virtually all British TTs reasonably flat?

                              I don't know about "virtually all" but there was a tendency to design
                              courses that would produce fast times. Such as using the shoulders
                              of busy motorways to take advantage of the "Tailwind" created by
                              passing cars. I do know that John Woodburn used ACs and FCs for his
                              attempts at the Cardiff to London record which he finally got. 162
                              miles and not particularly flat. Hill climbs were basically uphill
                              TTs and usually done on a single speed bike.

                              >I remember a TDF TT that was held on Alp d'Huez as I recall. ;-)

                              Refresh my memory, is that in Surry or Kent?


                              Mark Stonich;
                              BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                              5349 Elliot Ave S. - Minneapolis. MN 55417
                              Ph. (612) 824-2372 http://bikesmithdesign.com
                              http://mnhpva.org
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