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Re: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Gears in the BB

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  • Kfir Lavi
    hehe, Yes this is what I meant. I just dream on something with a lot of gears ;-) Thanks for posting this. Kfir
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 31, 2010
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      hehe,
      Yes this is what I meant. I just dream on something with a lot of gears ;-)
      Thanks for posting this.

      Kfir

      On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 9:38 AM, grishnakuk <grishnakuk@...> wrote:
       

      I1m surpised,the Slyway Momec system,has not bee mentioned yet ;-)
      Terry



      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <astronut1001@...> wrote:
      >
      > Rick;
      >
      > Thanks for the input and link. That is a transmission that I had not heard of. The number of multi speed bike transmissions that have been introduced in the history of the bicycle is amazing but so far only the IGH and derailleur seem to have been really successful. At the moment the NuVinci CVT and the 2 speed cranksets such as the Schlumpf seem to be in very limited use and the multi sped BB transmissions such as the V-Boxx even more restricted in application and use.
      >
      > Other designs may be viable alternatives but need time, money and thorough engineering debugging if they are going to ever gain market acceptance. Bicyclists as a group seem to be pretty conservative as far as drivetrain innovations are concerned.
      >
      > Rich Wood
      >
      > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Rick Paulos <rick-paulos@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I have one of those. A DANA bb. 3 speed igbb built in the 1960s to
      > > retro fit into american sized bb shells. Cable operated.
      > > here are some pictures.
      > > http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r198/rickpaulos/Dana%203%20speed%20crank/
      > > Should work okay but the shifter mechanism inside is made of some
      > > unstable plastic material that swelled & bound up so it won't
      > > shift. Even on the bench, there is quite a bit of internal drag.
      > >
      > > A few years ago someone made a modern 2 speed version for 3 piece
      > > cranks that you actuated by tapping the protruding dust cap in with
      > > your heel. That would be a problem for duck footed people like me.
      > >
      > > One general problem with bb's is they get road dirt, grit and water
      > > from both wheels.
      > > You also have lots of side torque. The drive in the rear wheel is
      > > mostly linear due to the chain. That means you still need a huge
      > > axle and your drive gears would be so tiny they would get shredded
      > > pretty quick.
      > >
      > > Look at a Sturmey Archer hub. The Sun Gear is pinned to the center
      > > of the axle in the center of the hub. A similar gear in a bb would
      > > mean you would have to drill a hole in the center of the bb axle
      > > (really bad idea) or make the axle even bigger and heavier and would
      > > take up more space and leave less room for the other gears or weld a
      > > gear to the axle. The bb shell would have to be pretty big and that
      > > means the frame would have to be built to accommodate it. So a
      > > dedicated bike. This won't be anything you could bolt on to an
      > > existing bike. Many older multi gear hubs have the cable connected
      > > via the ends of the axle. That's impossible on a crank set because
      > > your feet and the pedals would get in the way. The newer Shimano
      > > hubs have that ring connection around the driver. You would wind up
      > > with an extra layer of bearings because the outer shell is fixed to
      > > the frame. All the guts, including bb axle would have to be supported
      > > via all the gears and shift mechanism. That means lots of added drag.
      > >
      > > I don't see this idea going anywhere.
      > >
      > > Rick
      > >
      > > At 02:35 PM 3/31/2010, you wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > >Hi,
      > > >One thing that comes to mined is to take the gears and put them in
      > > >the bottom bracket.
      > > >This will allow rear hubs to be simple and the gears not involve in
      > > >the wheel dynamics.
      > > >Is there real attempt to do this? I know about bicycle that have a
      > > >front gearbox, but are downhill type and it seems very cumbersome.
      > > >I'm thinking more about putting the inside of the rohloff hub in the
      > > >BB, and keep it simple.
      > > >
      > > >I appreciate your comments.
      > > >
      > > >Kfir
      > >
      >


    • David Dannenberg
      So where does the Truvative Hammerschmidt fit into this discussion? I was very impressed with the info on their web site a year ago, though it the unit
      Message 2 of 28 , Apr 1, 2010
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        So where does the Truvative Hammerschmidt fit into this discussion? I was very impressed with the info on their web site a year ago, though it the unit requires a flanged BB. I keep hoping they will come out with an adapter for a more typical BB. Meantime I am half contemplating a Schlumpf and belt drive to some day complement the Roholoff on my Big Dummy.

        David Dannenberg
      • alan wade
        kind of ot but just to let you guys know, i met with bill hebb of hebb ebikes in dallas last week. he s marketing electric bikes that come with a nexus 7 spd.
        Message 3 of 28 , Apr 1, 2010
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          kind of ot but just to let you guys know, i met with bill hebb of hebb ebikes in dallas last week. he's marketing electric bikes that come with a nexus 7 spd. hub. he told me that he has to change to the 8 spd. because they're discontinuing the nexus line. i told him about the 11 spd. his bikes are amazing, by far the best i have seen........alan


          From: David Dannenberg <ddannenberg@...>
          Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Gears in the BB
          To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, April 1, 2010, 7:12 AM

           
          So where does the Truvative Hammerschmidt fit into this discussion? I was very impressed with the info on their web site a year ago, though it the unit requires a flanged BB. I keep hoping they will come out with an adapter for a more typical BB. Meantime I am half contemplating a Schlumpf and belt drive to some day complement the Roholoff on my Big Dummy.

          David Dannenberg

        • prester_john_in_cathay
          One of my all-time favorites, US patent 501381 from 1893: PJ
          Message 4 of 28 , Apr 1, 2010
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            One of my all-time favorites, US patent 501381 from 1893:

            <http://tinyurl.com/yjstges>

            PJ
          • Kfir Lavi
            I also find that patent really nice. Love the gear handle. Reminds me of my 3 speeds bike when I was 10yr ;-) Thanks for sharing. What is the expiration date
            Message 5 of 28 , Apr 1, 2010
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              I also find that patent really nice.
              Love the gear handle. Reminds me of my 3 speeds bike when I was 10yr ;-)
              Thanks for sharing.
              What is the expiration date for this patent?

              Regards,
              Kfir

              On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:27 PM, prester_john_in_cathay <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:
               

              One of my all-time favorites, US patent 501381 from 1893:

              <http://tinyurl.com/yjstges>

              PJ


            • prester_john_in_cathay
              ... Back then (the laws have changed since) patents expired 18 years after issue, so that patent went out of intelectual property protection 99 years ago.
              Message 6 of 28 , Apr 1, 2010
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                Kfir wrote in part:
                > What is the expiration date for this patent?

                Back then (the laws have changed since) patents expired 18 years after issue, so that patent went out of intelectual property protection 99 years ago. I've never seen a bicycle with a transmission quite like that in a museum or book, so I doubt the idea ever saw production (this is typical of most patents.)

                Fun fact: around 1890-1900, the US Patent Bureau maintained two offices; one for bicycle related patents and one for everything else!

                PJ
              • Kfir Lavi
                I guess it was the bike boom in 1890, like the car boom of the 20th century. Thanks, Kfir On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:31 PM, prester_john_in_cathay
                Message 7 of 28 , Apr 1, 2010
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                  I guess it was the bike boom in 1890, like the  car boom of the 20th century.
                  Thanks,
                  Kfir

                  On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:31 PM, prester_john_in_cathay <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:
                   

                  Kfir wrote in part:


                  > What is the expiration date for this patent?

                  Back then (the laws have changed since) patents expired 18 years after issue, so that patent went out of intelectual property protection 99 years ago. I've never seen a bicycle with a transmission quite like that in a museum or book, so I doubt the idea ever saw production (this is typical of most patents.)

                  Fun fact: around 1890-1900, the US Patent Bureau maintained two offices; one for bicycle related patents and one for everything else!

                  PJ


                • Rich
                  Another arrangement, not yet mentioned, that has been occasionally used is to use an IGH as a mid mount transmission; mounted between the crank set and the
                  Message 8 of 28 , Apr 1, 2010
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                    Another arrangement, not yet mentioned, that has been occasionally used is to use an IGH as a mid mount transmission; mounted between the crank set and the rear wheel.

                    I have not personally seen one but understand the arrangement has been used on recumbents and some tricycles and quadricycles. It allows the IGH input ratio to be kept within manufacturers recommendations while the output can be any ratio desired that sprockets can be obtained for. It also removes the limitation of the vehicle weight being carried by the IGH axle so a very heavy vehicle weight can be handled with proper design.

                    To me this would be a good design concept to look at for a IGH Bakfiets or longtail cargo bike. It can shorten individual chain runs and eliminate the wheel dish most derailleur wheels have, which weakens them. This could also be an advantage for a recumbent I suspect as they seem to have some very long chain runs.

                    It should be relatively easy to implement with the use of a disc brake compatible IGH as this allows relatively easy mounting of the power output sprocket from the IGH. I believe that Shimano and SA now offer 3 speed IGH units for tricycles that may be designed for use in such arrangements.

                    Rich Wood
                  • joesjunkpile
                    The old Schwinn trikes did this, the hub was mounted where the rear wheel would mount, then a short chain transmitted power to the rear axle. I believe the
                    Message 9 of 28 , Apr 2, 2010
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                      The old Schwinn trikes did this, the hub was mounted where the rear wheel would mount, then a short chain transmitted power to the rear axle. I believe the ratio was still 1:1 though or close to it.
                      We used to use those trikes for auto fleamarkets, I've seen those carrying engine blocks and transmissions around out there. Not to mention it's easier to pedal the 20 or so miles around most of the larger swap meets than walk it.



                      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Another arrangement, not yet mentioned, that has been occasionally used is to use an IGH as a mid mount transmission; mounted between the crank set and the rear wheel.
                      >
                      > I have not personally seen one but understand the arrangement has been used on recumbents and some tricycles and quadricycles. It allows the IGH input ratio to be kept within manufacturers recommendations while the output can be any ratio desired that sprockets can be obtained for. It also removes the limitation of the vehicle weight being carried by the IGH axle so a very heavy vehicle weight can be handled with proper design.
                      >
                      > To me this would be a good design concept to look at for a IGH Bakfiets or longtail cargo bike. It can shorten individual chain runs and eliminate the wheel dish most derailleur wheels have, which weakens them. This could also be an advantage for a recumbent I suspect as they seem to have some very long chain runs.
                      >
                      > It should be relatively easy to implement with the use of a disc brake compatible IGH as this allows relatively easy mounting of the power output sprocket from the IGH. I believe that Shimano and SA now offer 3 speed IGH units for tricycles that may be designed for use in such arrangements.
                      >
                      > Rich Wood
                      >
                    • prester_john_in_cathay
                      ... Well, that s an interesting rumor. Several bike companies decontented models this year by moving from the Nexus 8-speed to the Nexus 7-speed, to lower
                      Message 10 of 28 , Apr 2, 2010
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                        alan wrote in part:
                        >... bikes that come with a nexus 7 spd. hub. he
                        > told me that he has to change to the 8 spd.
                        > because they're discontinuing the nexus line.

                        Well, that's an interesting rumor. Several bike companies "decontented" models this year by moving from the Nexus 8-speed to the Nexus 7-speed, to lower product cost due to the economy. Plus, the Nexus line includes three-speed and 8-speed hubs as well as the 7-speeds. Seems unlikely that Shimano would give up on these solid markets.

                        PJ
                      • prester_john_in_cathay
                        ... ...as do the current production trikes from Schwinn, Trek, Worksman and others. Interested parties can see a close-up here:
                        Message 11 of 28 , Apr 2, 2010
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                          joesjunkpile wrote in part:
                          > The old Schwinn trikes did this...

                          ...as do the current production trikes from Schwinn, Trek, Worksman and others.

                          Interested parties can see a close-up here:

                          <http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/bike_path/pure/puretrikedeluxe/>

                          PJ
                        • Rich
                          Next someone needs to design an IGH for front wheel mounting so that we can get completely away from those nasty chains and belts ;-) Return to the original
                          Message 12 of 28 , Apr 2, 2010
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                            Next someone needs to design an IGH for front wheel mounting so that we can get completely away from those nasty chains and belts ;-) Return to the original bicycle concept of pedals driving the front wheel. Talk about retro!! I have seen concept drawings of such a IGH from a German engineer but so far as I know it has never been made even in prototype form.

                            Basically the cranks mounted on the center shaft and the outer hub shell rotated at different speeds in relation to the pedals depending on the gear selected. The shift controller hookup design on such a hub could get interesting I suspect.

                            This is mentioned, and the concept drawing for the hub printed, in the third edition of Bicycling Science. The engineer seemed to be convinced that going away from the front wheel drive concept was a backwards step that added unnecessary complexity to the basic bicycle.

                            I have never been convinced of the ergonomics of the front wheel drive as the seat to pedals distance changes with steering and strong pedaling needs to be compensated for by the rider via the handlebars. No personal experience though other than as a kid on a tricycle.

                            Rich Wood


                            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "prester_john_in_cathay" <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > joesjunkpile wrote in part:
                            > > The old Schwinn trikes did this...
                            >
                            > ...as do the current production trikes from Schwinn, Trek, Worksman and others.
                            >
                            > Interested parties can see a close-up here:
                            >
                            > <http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/bike_path/pure/puretrikedeluxe/>
                            >
                            > PJ
                            >
                          • wahooncx@yahoo.com
                            Rich, I believe someone is doing it with an Ordinary. I will see if I can dig up a link later. IIRC it is a 2 speed mechanism. The guy that had did an around
                            Message 13 of 28 , Apr 2, 2010
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                              Rich,

                              I believe someone is doing it with an Ordinary. I will see if I can dig up a link later. IIRC it is a 2 speed mechanism. The guy that had did an around the world tour a couple of years ago. His name wa Goff.

                              Aaron

                              Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


                              From: "Rich" <astronut1001@...>
                              Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:34:38 -0000
                              To: <Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com>
                              Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Gears in the BB and Other Arrangements

                               

                              Next someone needs to design an IGH for front wheel mounting so that we can get completely away from those nasty chains and belts ;-) Return to the original bicycle concept of pedals driving the front wheel. Talk about retro!! I have seen concept drawings of such a IGH from a German engineer but so far as I know it has never been made even in prototype form.

                              Basically the cranks mounted on the center shaft and the outer hub shell rotated at different speeds in relation to the pedals depending on the gear selected. The shift controller hookup design on such a hub could get interesting I suspect.

                              This is mentioned, and the concept drawing for the hub printed, in the third edition of Bicycling Science. The engineer seemed to be convinced that going away from the front wheel drive concept was a backwards step that added unnecessary complexity to the basic bicycle.

                              I have never been convinced of the ergonomics of the front wheel drive as the seat to pedals distance changes with steering and strong pedaling needs to be compensated for by the rider via the handlebars. No personal experience though other than as a kid on a tricycle.

                              Rich Wood

                              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@ yahoogroups. com, "prester_john_ in_cathay" <prester_john_ in_cathay@ ...> wrote:
                              >
                              > joesjunkpile wrote in part:
                              > > The old Schwinn trikes did this...
                              >
                              > ...as do the current production trikes from Schwinn, Trek, Worksman and others.
                              >
                              > Interested parties can see a close-up here:
                              >
                              > <http://www.trekbike s.com/us/ en/bikes/ bike_path/ pure/puretrikede luxe/>
                              >
                              > PJ
                              >

                            • Rich
                              Aaron; Interesting! I have always considered the Ordinary to be an accident waiting to happen, though I have never tried one. There are reasons that when it
                              Message 14 of 28 , Apr 2, 2010
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                                Aaron;

                                Interesting! I have always considered the Ordinary to be an accident waiting to happen, though I have never tried one. There are reasons that when it was introduced the RWD chain drive bike was referred to as the "Safety" bicycle.

                                I was thinking more of a FWD IGH to fit the "Bantam" style FWD frames that competed with the Safety frame bikes for a few years in GB before the Safety layout became almost universal. I have seen pictures but never an actual Bantam style bike.

                                Rich Wood


                                --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, wahooncx@... wrote:
                                >
                                > Rich,
                                >
                                > I believe someone is doing it with an Ordinary. I will see if I can dig up a link later. IIRC it is a 2 speed mechanism. The guy that had did an around the world tour a couple of years ago. His name wa Goff.
                                >
                                > Aaron
                                > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: "Rich" <astronut1001@...>
                                > Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:34:38
                                > To: <Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Gears in the BB and Other Arrangements
                                >
                                > Next someone needs to design an IGH for front wheel mounting so that we can get completely away from those nasty chains and belts ;-) Return to the original bicycle concept of pedals driving the front wheel. Talk about retro!! I have seen concept drawings of such a IGH from a German engineer but so far as I know it has never been made even in prototype form.
                                >
                                > Basically the cranks mounted on the center shaft and the outer hub shell rotated at different speeds in relation to the pedals depending on the gear selected. The shift controller hookup design on such a hub could get interesting I suspect.
                                >
                                > This is mentioned, and the concept drawing for the hub printed, in the third edition of Bicycling Science. The engineer seemed to be convinced that going away from the front wheel drive concept was a backwards step that added unnecessary complexity to the basic bicycle.
                                >
                                > I have never been convinced of the ergonomics of the front wheel drive as the seat to pedals distance changes with steering and strong pedaling needs to be compensated for by the rider via the handlebars. No personal experience though other than as a kid on a tricycle.
                                >
                                > Rich Wood
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "prester_john_in_cathay" <prester_john_in_cathay@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > joesjunkpile wrote in part:
                                > > > The old Schwinn trikes did this...
                                > >
                                > > ...as do the current production trikes from Schwinn, Trek, Worksman and others.
                                > >
                                > > Interested parties can see a close-up here:
                                > >
                                > > <http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/bike_path/pure/puretrikedeluxe/>
                                > >
                                > > PJ
                                > >
                                >
                              • prester_john_in_cathay
                                Joff Sumerfield, his link here: http://www.pennyfarthingworldtour.com/ His three-speed penny-farthing pictured here:
                                Message 15 of 28 , Apr 3, 2010
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                                  Joff Sumerfield, his link here:

                                  http://www.pennyfarthingworldtour.com/

                                  His three-speed penny-farthing pictured here:

                                  http://www.pennyfarthingworldtour.com/Mk1-4.jpg

                                  PJ
                                • wahooncx@yahoo.com
                                  Thanks PJ! I am on the road and haven t had a chance to dig up the links. Aaron Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ... From: prester_john_in_cathay
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Apr 3, 2010
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                                    Thanks PJ!

                                    I am on the road and haven't had a chance to dig up the links.

                                    Aaron

                                    Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


                                    From: "prester_john_in_cathay" <prester_john_in_cathay@...>
                                    Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 17:43:46 -0000
                                    To: <Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Gears in the BB and Other Arrangements

                                     

                                    Joff Sumerfield, his link here:

                                    http://www.pennyfar thingworldtour. com/

                                    His three-speed penny-farthing pictured here:

                                    http://www.pennyfar thingworldtour. com/Mk1-4. jpg

                                    PJ

                                  • Rich
                                    Interesting. I note that the 3 speed Penny Farthing is not the one used on the world tour. It looks like it was an experiment. Also the mention of a couple
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Apr 3, 2010
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                                      Interesting. I note that the 3 speed Penny Farthing is not the one used on the world tour. It looks like it was an experiment.

                                      Also the mention of a couple of bone breaking headers in the years leading up to the world tour reinforce my perception that such bikes are not the safest arrangement.

                                      Rich Wood

                                      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "prester_john_in_cathay" <prester_john_in_cathay@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Joff Sumerfield, his link here:
                                      >
                                      > http://www.pennyfarthingworldtour.com/
                                      >
                                      > His three-speed penny-farthing pictured here:
                                      >
                                      > http://www.pennyfarthingworldtour.com/Mk1-4.jpg
                                      >
                                      > PJ
                                      >
                                    • Bruce Alan Wilson
                                      What about Schlumf? Bruce Alan Wilson http://www.wvdemolay.org/ http://tinyurl.com/WVMSRideBAW http://pedalersparadise.wordpress.com/ The bicycle is the most
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Apr 3, 2010
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                                        What about Schlumf?
                                         
                                         
                                         

                                        The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart.  ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
                                      • frameteam2003
                                        Adler(German)produced a 3 speed geared in the BB--this alowed a 3 speed fixed gear if a fixed hub was used. and I was told once of a man in Texas that set a
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Apr 3, 2010
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                                          Adler(German)produced a 3 speed geared in the BB--this alowed a 3 speed fixed gear if a fixed hub was used.
                                          and I was told once of a man in Texas that set a speed record(flying mile I think?) on a geared hub Ordinary he designed--Anyone have any info on this?

                                          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Alan Wilson" <bruce_alan_wilson@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > What about Schlumf?
                                          >
                                          > Bruce Alan Wilson
                                          > http://www.wvdemolay.org/
                                          > http://tinyurl.com/WVMSRideBAW
                                          > http://pedalersparadise.wordpress.com/
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart. ~Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green
                                          >
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