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Re: Sturmey archer question

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  • Rich Wood
    Brandon; Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM three speed hub which discusses it s ratios and gearing. I found it after a minimal Google
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 10, 2008
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      Brandon;

      Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM three speed
      hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it after a
      minimal Google search.

      http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html

      It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing range
      provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.

      Rich Wood


      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
      <astronut1001@...> wrote:
      >
      > Brandon;
      >
      > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my Rohloff 14
      > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high of
      110".
      > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and a high
      of
      > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not been
      modified
      > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
      >
      > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high gear
      > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use, should be
      > confined to riders in excellent condition with good knees.
      Spinning
      > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the joints and
      leg
      > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
      >
      > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle gear
      inches
      > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should be
      > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so can
      > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which seems to me
      to
      > be more logical.
      >
      > Rich Wood
      >
      >
      > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
      > <astronut1001@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Brandon;
      > >
      > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in first, 1.0
      > in
      > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to high is
      > 177%.
      > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+ years
      > Sturmey
      > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various internal
      > ratios.
      > >
      > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
      chainring
      > and
      > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range. Generally
      > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a high gear
      of
      > 80"
      > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of around 45"
      > which is
      > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing, depending
      on
      > the
      > > rider's condition.
      > >
      > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to 300% for
      a
      > two
      > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and an
      > extreme of
      > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike derailleur
      > system.
      > >
      > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be in the
      > 100" to
      > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the derailleur
      > system
      > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
      > >
      > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and 14 speed
      > gear
      > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
      > comparable to
      > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer 8
      speeds
      > are
      > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM hub has a
      > 340%
      > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%. These are
      > much
      > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have smalller
      > steps
      > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and greater
      overall
      > gear
      > > ranges.
      > >
      > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing steeper hills
      > while
      > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the flat and/or
      > when
      > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
      > >
      > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar ratios. All
      > also
      > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3 speed
      > unit
      > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but there has
      > been
      > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since. By
      modern
      > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for reasonably
      flat
      > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent condition. From
      > an
      > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite marginal and
      > the
      > > jumps between ratios are too great.
      > >
      > > Rich Wood
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
      > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or ratio
      would
      > my
      > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
      > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on a road
      > bike vs
      > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed derailleur system
      > who
      > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same rider?
      > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
      > > >
      > > > Brandon
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • brandon
      Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios because my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced and trued my sturmey
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 10, 2008
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        Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios because
        my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced and
        trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then contacted my
        friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different brand
        and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
        and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!

        which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed mine wasn't
        that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this was a hundred
        meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength riders so i
        rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2 meters.

        my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the front and i
        got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my hub just kept
        going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown what bike it
        came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side of the road.

        Brandon.


        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
        <astronut1001@...> wrote:
        >
        > Brandon;
        >
        > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM three speed
        > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it after a
        > minimal Google search.
        >
        > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
        >
        > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing range
        > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.
        >
        > Rich Wood
        >
        >
        > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
        > <astronut1001@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Brandon;
        > >
        > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my Rohloff 14
        > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high of
        > 110".
        > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and a high
        > of
        > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not been
        > modified
        > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
        > >
        > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high gear
        > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use, should be
        > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good knees.
        > Spinning
        > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the joints and
        > leg
        > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
        > >
        > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle gear
        > inches
        > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should be
        > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so can
        > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which seems to me
        > to
        > > be more logical.
        > >
        > > Rich Wood
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
        > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Brandon;
        > > >
        > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in first, 1.0
        > > in
        > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to high is
        > > 177%.
        > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+ years
        > > Sturmey
        > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various internal
        > > ratios.
        > > >
        > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
        > chainring
        > > and
        > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range. Generally
        > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a high gear
        > of
        > > 80"
        > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of around 45"
        > > which is
        > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing, depending
        > on
        > > the
        > > > rider's condition.
        > > >
        > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to 300% for
        > a
        > > two
        > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and an
        > > extreme of
        > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike derailleur
        > > system.
        > > >
        > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be in the
        > > 100" to
        > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the derailleur
        > > system
        > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
        > > >
        > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and 14 speed
        > > gear
        > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
        > > comparable to
        > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer 8
        > speeds
        > > are
        > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM hub has a
        > > 340%
        > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%. These are
        > > much
        > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have smalller
        > > steps
        > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and greater
        > overall
        > > gear
        > > > ranges.
        > > >
        > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing steeper hills
        > > while
        > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the flat and/or
        > > when
        > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
        > > >
        > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar ratios. All
        > > also
        > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3 speed
        > > unit
        > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but there has
        > > been
        > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since. By
        > modern
        > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for reasonably
        > flat
        > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent condition. From
        > > an
        > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite marginal and
        > > the
        > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
        > > >
        > > > Rich Wood
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
        > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or ratio
        > would
        > > my
        > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
        > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on a road
        > > bike vs
        > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed derailleur system
        > > who
        > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same rider?
        > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
        > > > >
        > > > > Brandon
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Rich Wood
        Brandon; Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare Sturmey Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost all British road
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 10, 2008
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          Brandon;

          Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare Sturmey
          Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost all
          British road competition at the time was time trials held on
          relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
          such use with it's narrow range of gearing.

          At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
          Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
          understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a kiwi
          who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
          description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it sound
          like it was pretty bad by current standards.

          The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs and
          freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
          enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
          freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided immensely in
          shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
          european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-Maillard,
          out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem to be
          the ony european derailleur suppliers left.

          Rich Wood


          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
          <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios
          because
          > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced and
          > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then contacted
          my
          > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different brand
          > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
          > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
          >
          > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed mine
          wasn't
          > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this was a
          hundred
          > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength riders so i
          > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2 meters.
          >
          > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the front
          and i
          > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my hub just
          kept
          > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown what bike
          it
          > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side of the
          road.
          >
          > Brandon.
          >
          >
          > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
          > <astronut1001@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Brandon;
          > >
          > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM three
          speed
          > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it after a
          > > minimal Google search.
          > >
          > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
          > >
          > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing range
          > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.
          > >
          > > Rich Wood
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
          > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Brandon;
          > > >
          > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
          Rohloff 14
          > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high of
          > > 110".
          > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and a
          high
          > > of
          > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not been
          > > modified
          > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
          > > >
          > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high
          gear
          > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use, should
          be
          > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good knees.
          > > Spinning
          > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the joints
          and
          > > leg
          > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
          > > >
          > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle gear
          > > inches
          > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should be
          > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so can
          > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which seems to
          me
          > > to
          > > > be more logical.
          > > >
          > > > Rich Wood
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
          > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Brandon;
          > > > >
          > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in first,
          1.0
          > > > in
          > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to high is
          > > > 177%.
          > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+ years
          > > > Sturmey
          > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
          internal
          > > > ratios.
          > > > >
          > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
          > > chainring
          > > > and
          > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
          Generally
          > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a high
          gear
          > > of
          > > > 80"
          > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of around
          45"
          > > > which is
          > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
          depending
          > > on
          > > > the
          > > > > rider's condition.
          > > > >
          > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to 300%
          for
          > > a
          > > > two
          > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and an
          > > > extreme of
          > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike derailleur
          > > > system.
          > > > >
          > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be in
          the
          > > > 100" to
          > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
          derailleur
          > > > system
          > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
          > > > >
          > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and 14
          speed
          > > > gear
          > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
          > > > comparable to
          > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer 8
          > > speeds
          > > > are
          > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM hub
          has a
          > > > 340%
          > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%. These
          are
          > > > much
          > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
          smalller
          > > > steps
          > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and greater
          > > overall
          > > > gear
          > > > > ranges.
          > > > >
          > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing steeper
          hills
          > > > while
          > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the flat
          and/or
          > > > when
          > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
          > > > >
          > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar ratios.
          All
          > > > also
          > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3
          speed
          > > > unit
          > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but there
          has
          > > > been
          > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since. By
          > > modern
          > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
          reasonably
          > > flat
          > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent condition.
          From
          > > > an
          > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite marginal
          and
          > > > the
          > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
          > > > >
          > > > > Rich Wood
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
          > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or ratio
          > > would
          > > > my
          > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
          > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on a
          road
          > > > bike vs
          > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed derailleur
          system
          > > > who
          > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same rider?
          > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Brandon
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • brandon
          So Rich my hub is rare that s pretty good, thanks for that. so its a close ratio hub that s alright considering i got it of some old rim. Are you American?, if
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 11, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so its a
            close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old rim.
            Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there because
            Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up til the
            1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
            Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs when
            there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?

            I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into production
            and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France that
            would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to derailleurs!

            Brandon.


            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
            <astronut1001@...> wrote:
            >
            > Brandon;
            >
            > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare Sturmey
            > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost all
            > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
            > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
            > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
            >
            > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
            > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
            > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a kiwi
            > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
            > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it sound
            > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
            >
            > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs and
            > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
            > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
            > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided immensely in
            > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
            > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-Maillard,
            > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem to be
            > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
            >
            > Rich Wood
            >
            >
            > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
            > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios
            > because
            > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced and
            > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then contacted
            > my
            > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different brand
            > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
            > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
            > >
            > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed mine
            > wasn't
            > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this was a
            > hundred
            > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength riders so i
            > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2 meters.
            > >
            > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the front
            > and i
            > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my hub just
            > kept
            > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown what bike
            > it
            > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side of the
            > road.
            > >
            > > Brandon.
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
            > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Brandon;
            > > >
            > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM three
            > speed
            > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it after a
            > > > minimal Google search.
            > > >
            > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
            > > >
            > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing range
            > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.
            > > >
            > > > Rich Wood
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
            > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Brandon;
            > > > >
            > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
            > Rohloff 14
            > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high of
            > > > 110".
            > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and a
            > high
            > > > of
            > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not been
            > > > modified
            > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
            > > > >
            > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high
            > gear
            > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use, should
            > be
            > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good knees.
            > > > Spinning
            > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the joints
            > and
            > > > leg
            > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
            > > > >
            > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle gear
            > > > inches
            > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should be
            > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so can
            > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which seems to
            > me
            > > > to
            > > > > be more logical.
            > > > >
            > > > > Rich Wood
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
            > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Brandon;
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in first,
            > 1.0
            > > > > in
            > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to high is
            > > > > 177%.
            > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+ years
            > > > > Sturmey
            > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
            > internal
            > > > > ratios.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
            > > > chainring
            > > > > and
            > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
            > Generally
            > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a high
            > gear
            > > > of
            > > > > 80"
            > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of around
            > 45"
            > > > > which is
            > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
            > depending
            > > > on
            > > > > the
            > > > > > rider's condition.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to 300%
            > for
            > > > a
            > > > > two
            > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and an
            > > > > extreme of
            > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike derailleur
            > > > > system.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be in
            > the
            > > > > 100" to
            > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
            > derailleur
            > > > > system
            > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and 14
            > speed
            > > > > gear
            > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
            > > > > comparable to
            > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer 8
            > > > speeds
            > > > > are
            > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM hub
            > has a
            > > > > 340%
            > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%. These
            > are
            > > > > much
            > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
            > smalller
            > > > > steps
            > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and greater
            > > > overall
            > > > > gear
            > > > > > ranges.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing steeper
            > hills
            > > > > while
            > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the flat
            > and/or
            > > > > when
            > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar ratios.
            > All
            > > > > also
            > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3
            > speed
            > > > > unit
            > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but there
            > has
            > > > > been
            > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since. By
            > > > modern
            > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
            > reasonably
            > > > flat
            > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent condition.
            > From
            > > > > an
            > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite marginal
            > and
            > > > > the
            > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Rich Wood
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
            > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or ratio
            > > > would
            > > > > my
            > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
            > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on a
            > road
            > > > > bike vs
            > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed derailleur
            > system
            > > > > who
            > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same rider?
            > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Brandon
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Rich Wood
            Brandon; I am American and live in Reno, Nevada. SA does do an 8 speed hub though the gear range is wierd compared to Shimano, SRAM and Rohloff gear hubs.
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 11, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Brandon;

              I am American and live in Reno, Nevada.

              SA does do an 8 speed hub though the gear range is wierd compared to
              Shimano, SRAM and Rohloff gear hubs.

              Derailleur gear trains are still lighter than the best high gear
              count hubs, particularly the top end derailleur gear trains using
              lots of carbon fiber and titanium in addition to aluminum. Remember
              that in a Tour bike price is not a consideration and they have
              really top mechanics going over each bike with a microscope on a
              daily basis.

              IMO the strengths of a gear hub, properly designed and made, are
              long term dependability and much less susceptiblity to the effects
              of mud, dust and bad weather. Also once initial cable stretch is
              out of the shifter cable they hold adjustment longer than
              derailleurs.

              Per the book Bicycling Science, and test figures on the Rohloff web
              site, the derailleur gear train is very slightly more efficient.
              This does vary however with the derailleur sprocket selection being
              used.

              A rear derailleur is very subject to damage from a fall or other
              impact from riding in rocky areas such as mountain bikers do
              routinely. The latest gear hubs from SRAM, Shimano and Rohloff do
              not have parts which protrude like a derailleur gear train does.
              This makes them much less susceptible to damage in my opinion.

              Thorn Bicycles in England makes some really high end adventure and
              touring bikes. Their designer is a strong proponent of the Rohloff
              hub. He has used it for rough road touring in Australia, Tasmania
              and in South America. Rides have included multiple trips over the
              Andes on dirt and gravel roads to altitudes close to 15,000 feet
              with no problems from the Rohloff hub. It seems to be virtually
              unbreakable. To me this is an area of use where a gear hub shines.

              Also better than derailleur gear trains for use in city riding and
              traffic due to the faster shifting and the ability to shift while
              stopped at traffic lights or other stops. Just more user friendly
              overall in this environment.

              Rich Wood


              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
              <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
              >
              > So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so its
              a
              > close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old
              rim.
              > Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there
              because
              > Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up til
              the
              > 1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
              > Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs when
              > there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?
              >
              > I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into
              production
              > and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France that
              > would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to derailleurs!
              >
              > Brandon.
              >
              >
              > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
              > <astronut1001@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Brandon;
              > >
              > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
              Sturmey
              > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost
              all
              > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
              > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
              > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
              > >
              > > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
              > > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
              > > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a
              kiwi
              > > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
              > > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it
              sound
              > > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
              > >
              > > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs
              and
              > > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
              > > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
              > > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided immensely
              in
              > > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
              > > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-
              Maillard,
              > > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem to
              be
              > > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
              > >
              > > Rich Wood
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
              > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios
              > > because
              > > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced
              and
              > > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then
              contacted
              > > my
              > > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different brand
              > > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
              > > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
              > > >
              > > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed mine
              > > wasn't
              > > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this was a
              > > hundred
              > > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength riders
              so i
              > > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2 meters.
              > > >
              > > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the
              front
              > > and i
              > > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my hub
              just
              > > kept
              > > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown what
              bike
              > > it
              > > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side of
              the
              > > road.
              > > >
              > > > Brandon.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
              > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Brandon;
              > > > >
              > > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM
              three
              > > speed
              > > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it
              after a
              > > > > minimal Google search.
              > > > >
              > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
              > > > >
              > > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing
              range
              > > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.
              > > > >
              > > > > Rich Wood
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
              > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Brandon;
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
              > > Rohloff 14
              > > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high
              of
              > > > > 110".
              > > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and
              a
              > > high
              > > > > of
              > > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not
              been
              > > > > modified
              > > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high
              > > gear
              > > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use,
              should
              > > be
              > > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good
              knees.
              > > > > Spinning
              > > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the
              joints
              > > and
              > > > > leg
              > > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle
              gear
              > > > > inches
              > > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should
              be
              > > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so
              can
              > > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which
              seems to
              > > me
              > > > > to
              > > > > > be more logical.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Rich Wood
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
              > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Brandon;
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in
              first,
              > > 1.0
              > > > > > in
              > > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to
              high is
              > > > > > 177%.
              > > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+
              years
              > > > > > Sturmey
              > > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
              > > internal
              > > > > > ratios.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
              > > > > chainring
              > > > > > and
              > > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
              > > Generally
              > > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a
              high
              > > gear
              > > > > of
              > > > > > 80"
              > > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of
              around
              > > 45"
              > > > > > which is
              > > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
              > > depending
              > > > > on
              > > > > > the
              > > > > > > rider's condition.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to
              300%
              > > for
              > > > > a
              > > > > > two
              > > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and
              an
              > > > > > extreme of
              > > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike
              derailleur
              > > > > > system.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be
              in
              > > the
              > > > > > 100" to
              > > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
              > > derailleur
              > > > > > system
              > > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and
              14
              > > speed
              > > > > > gear
              > > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
              > > > > > comparable to
              > > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer
              8
              > > > > speeds
              > > > > > are
              > > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM
              hub
              > > has a
              > > > > > 340%
              > > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%.
              These
              > > are
              > > > > > much
              > > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
              > > smalller
              > > > > > steps
              > > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and
              greater
              > > > > overall
              > > > > > gear
              > > > > > > ranges.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing
              steeper
              > > hills
              > > > > > while
              > > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the
              flat
              > > and/or
              > > > > > when
              > > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar
              ratios.
              > > All
              > > > > > also
              > > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3
              > > speed
              > > > > > unit
              > > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but
              there
              > > has
              > > > > > been
              > > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since.
              By
              > > > > modern
              > > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
              > > reasonably
              > > > > flat
              > > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent
              condition.
              > > From
              > > > > > an
              > > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite
              marginal
              > > and
              > > > > > the
              > > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Rich Wood
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
              > > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or
              ratio
              > > > > would
              > > > > > my
              > > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
              > > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on
              a
              > > road
              > > > > > bike vs
              > > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed
              derailleur
              > > system
              > > > > > who
              > > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same
              rider?
              > > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Brandon
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Rich Wood
              Brandon; Two reasons for derailleur gear trains being more popular. Derailleurs took over when the typical gear hub was the 3 speed unit from SA, Sachs or
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 11, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Brandon;

                Two reasons for derailleur gear trains being more popular.
                Derailleurs took over when the typical gear hub was the 3 speed unit
                from SA, Sachs or Shimano typically fitted to a utility type
                bicycle. A 10 speed derailleur system could be made for the same or
                less money and for the sales people, and many customers, 10 speeds
                sounded sexier han 3. Also racers were using derailleurs.

                Even now you can get a decent derailleur bike for less money than a
                high gear count gear hub bike generally speaking. A lot more
                precision machining and parts in the hub than in a derailleur system.

                Here in the US currently the gear hub is gaining in popularity,
                primarily on lower performance commuter and cruiser type bikes.
                These are typically using Shimano 7 and 8 speed hubs with 3 speeds
                on the bottom end bikes. Virtually all Anerican brands offer
                several bikes in this category.

                One maker ofers a model using the SRAM (originally Sachs) 9 speed
                hub and one offers a bike with the Rohloff hub.

                Sturmey Archer is now owned by a Taiwanese company and is no longer
                common in the US. A few models are imported but distribution seems
                pretty limited. No longer the first choice of manufacturers looking
                to offer a gear hub bike.

                Rich Wood


                --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
                >
                > So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so its
                a
                > close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old
                rim.
                > Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there
                because
                > Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up til
                the
                > 1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
                > Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs when
                > there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?
                >
                > I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into
                production
                > and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France that
                > would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to derailleurs!
                >
                > Brandon.
                >
                >
                > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Brandon;
                > >
                > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
                Sturmey
                > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost
                all
                > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
                > >
                > > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
                > > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
                > > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a
                kiwi
                > > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
                > > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it
                sound
                > > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
                > >
                > > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs
                and
                > > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
                > > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
                > > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided immensely
                in
                > > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
                > > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-
                Maillard,
                > > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem to
                be
                > > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
                > >
                > > Rich Wood
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios
                > > because
                > > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced
                and
                > > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then
                contacted
                > > my
                > > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different brand
                > > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
                > > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
                > > >
                > > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed mine
                > > wasn't
                > > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this was a
                > > hundred
                > > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength riders
                so i
                > > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2 meters.
                > > >
                > > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the
                front
                > > and i
                > > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my hub
                just
                > > kept
                > > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown what
                bike
                > > it
                > > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side of
                the
                > > road.
                > > >
                > > > Brandon.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Brandon;
                > > > >
                > > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM
                three
                > > speed
                > > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it
                after a
                > > > > minimal Google search.
                > > > >
                > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
                > > > >
                > > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing
                range
                > > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.
                > > > >
                > > > > Rich Wood
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Brandon;
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
                > > Rohloff 14
                > > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high
                of
                > > > > 110".
                > > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and
                a
                > > high
                > > > > of
                > > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not
                been
                > > > > modified
                > > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high
                > > gear
                > > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use,
                should
                > > be
                > > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good
                knees.
                > > > > Spinning
                > > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the
                joints
                > > and
                > > > > leg
                > > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle
                gear
                > > > > inches
                > > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should
                be
                > > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so
                can
                > > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which
                seems to
                > > me
                > > > > to
                > > > > > be more logical.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Rich Wood
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Brandon;
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in
                first,
                > > 1.0
                > > > > > in
                > > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to
                high is
                > > > > > 177%.
                > > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+
                years
                > > > > > Sturmey
                > > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
                > > internal
                > > > > > ratios.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
                > > > > chainring
                > > > > > and
                > > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
                > > Generally
                > > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a
                high
                > > gear
                > > > > of
                > > > > > 80"
                > > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of
                around
                > > 45"
                > > > > > which is
                > > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
                > > depending
                > > > > on
                > > > > > the
                > > > > > > rider's condition.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to
                300%
                > > for
                > > > > a
                > > > > > two
                > > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and
                an
                > > > > > extreme of
                > > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike
                derailleur
                > > > > > system.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be
                in
                > > the
                > > > > > 100" to
                > > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
                > > derailleur
                > > > > > system
                > > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and
                14
                > > speed
                > > > > > gear
                > > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
                > > > > > comparable to
                > > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer
                8
                > > > > speeds
                > > > > > are
                > > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM
                hub
                > > has a
                > > > > > 340%
                > > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%.
                These
                > > are
                > > > > > much
                > > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
                > > smalller
                > > > > > steps
                > > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and
                greater
                > > > > overall
                > > > > > gear
                > > > > > > ranges.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing
                steeper
                > > hills
                > > > > > while
                > > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the
                flat
                > > and/or
                > > > > > when
                > > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar
                ratios.
                > > All
                > > > > > also
                > > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3
                > > speed
                > > > > > unit
                > > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but
                there
                > > has
                > > > > > been
                > > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since.
                By
                > > > > modern
                > > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
                > > reasonably
                > > > > flat
                > > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent
                condition.
                > > From
                > > > > > an
                > > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite
                marginal
                > > and
                > > > > > the
                > > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Rich Wood
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                > > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or
                ratio
                > > > > would
                > > > > > my
                > > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
                > > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on
                a
                > > road
                > > > > > bike vs
                > > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed
                derailleur
                > > system
                > > > > > who
                > > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same
                rider?
                > > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Brandon
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • brandon
                I couldn t agree more Rich and i live somewhere you haven t heard of so i will say it is near Byron bay and its not outback terrain like most movies show
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 11, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  I couldn't agree more Rich and i live somewhere you haven't heard of so i will say it is near Byron bay and its not outback terrain like most movies show Australia its very nice here with the beach close and lots of nice potholed roads .
                  and the weirdest thing is that on the riverbanks are bamboo so figure that out:-/
                  anyway i haven't heard of the rohloff hub before i joined this group can you put a pic of one on a bike i would like to see the setup.

                  Thanks.



                  --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood" <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Brandon;
                  >
                  > I am American and live in Reno, Nevada.
                  >
                  > SA does do an 8 speed hub though the gear range is wierd compared to
                  > Shimano, SRAM and Rohloff gear hubs.
                  >
                  > Derailleur gear trains are still lighter than the best high gear
                  > count hubs, particularly the top end derailleur gear trains using
                  > lots of carbon fiber and titanium in addition to aluminum. Remember
                  > that in a Tour bike price is not a consideration and they have
                  > really top mechanics going over each bike with a microscope on a
                  > daily basis.
                  >
                  > IMO the strengths of a gear hub, properly designed and made, are
                  > long term dependability and much less susceptiblity to the effects
                  > of mud, dust and bad weather. Also once initial cable stretch is
                  > out of the shifter cable they hold adjustment longer than
                  > derailleurs.
                  >
                  > Per the book Bicycling Science, and test figures on the Rohloff web
                  > site, the derailleur gear train is very slightly more efficient.
                  > This does vary however with the derailleur sprocket selection being
                  > used.
                  >
                  > A rear derailleur is very subject to damage from a fall or other
                  > impact from riding in rocky areas such as mountain bikers do
                  > routinely. The latest gear hubs from SRAM, Shimano and Rohloff do
                  > not have parts which protrude like a derailleur gear train does.
                  > This makes them much less susceptible to damage in my opinion.
                  >
                  > Thorn Bicycles in England makes some really high end adventure and
                  > touring bikes. Their designer is a strong proponent of the Rohloff
                  > hub. He has used it for rough road touring in Australia, Tasmania
                  > and in South America. Rides have included multiple trips over the
                  > Andes on dirt and gravel roads to altitudes close to 15,000 feet
                  > with no problems from the Rohloff hub. It seems to be virtually
                  > unbreakable. To me this is an area of use where a gear hub shines.
                  >
                  > Also better than derailleur gear trains for use in city riding and
                  > traffic due to the faster shifting and the ability to shift while
                  > stopped at traffic lights or other stops. Just more user friendly
                  > overall in this environment.
                  >
                  > Rich Wood
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                  > rogersbrandon96@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so its
                  > a
                  > > close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old
                  > rim.
                  > > Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there
                  > because
                  > > Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up til
                  > the
                  > > 1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
                  > > Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs when
                  > > there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?
                  > >
                  > > I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into
                  > production
                  > > and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France that
                  > > would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to derailleurs!
                  > >
                  > > Brandon.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                  > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Brandon;
                  > > >
                  > > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
                  > Sturmey
                  > > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost
                  > all
                  > > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                  > > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                  > > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
                  > > >
                  > > > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
                  > > > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
                  > > > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a
                  > kiwi
                  > > > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
                  > > > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it
                  > sound
                  > > > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
                  > > >
                  > > > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs
                  > and
                  > > > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
                  > > > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
                  > > > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided immensely
                  > in
                  > > > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
                  > > > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-
                  > Maillard,
                  > > > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem to
                  > be
                  > > > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
                  > > >
                  > > > Rich Wood
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                  > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios
                  > > > because
                  > > > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced
                  > and
                  > > > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then
                  > contacted
                  > > > my
                  > > > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different brand
                  > > > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
                  > > > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed mine
                  > > > wasn't
                  > > > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this was a
                  > > > hundred
                  > > > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength riders
                  > so i
                  > > > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2 meters.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the
                  > front
                  > > > and i
                  > > > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my hub
                  > just
                  > > > kept
                  > > > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown what
                  > bike
                  > > > it
                  > > > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side of
                  > the
                  > > > road.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Brandon.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                  > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Brandon;
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM
                  > three
                  > > > speed
                  > > > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it
                  > after a
                  > > > > > minimal Google search.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing
                  > range
                  > > > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Rich Wood
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                  > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Brandon;
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
                  > > > Rohloff 14
                  > > > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high
                  > of
                  > > > > > 110".
                  > > > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and
                  > a
                  > > > high
                  > > > > > of
                  > > > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not
                  > been
                  > > > > > modified
                  > > > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high
                  > > > gear
                  > > > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use,
                  > should
                  > > > be
                  > > > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good
                  > knees.
                  > > > > > Spinning
                  > > > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the
                  > joints
                  > > > and
                  > > > > > leg
                  > > > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle
                  > gear
                  > > > > > inches
                  > > > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should
                  > be
                  > > > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so
                  > can
                  > > > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which
                  > seems to
                  > > > me
                  > > > > > to
                  > > > > > > be more logical.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Rich Wood
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                  > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Brandon;
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in
                  > first,
                  > > > 1.0
                  > > > > > > in
                  > > > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to
                  > high is
                  > > > > > > 177%.
                  > > > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+
                  > years
                  > > > > > > Sturmey
                  > > > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
                  > > > internal
                  > > > > > > ratios.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
                  > > > > > chainring
                  > > > > > > and
                  > > > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
                  > > > Generally
                  > > > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a
                  > high
                  > > > gear
                  > > > > > of
                  > > > > > > 80"
                  > > > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of
                  > around
                  > > > 45"
                  > > > > > > which is
                  > > > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
                  > > > depending
                  > > > > > on
                  > > > > > > the
                  > > > > > > > rider's condition.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to
                  > 300%
                  > > > for
                  > > > > > a
                  > > > > > > two
                  > > > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and
                  > an
                  > > > > > > extreme of
                  > > > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike
                  > derailleur
                  > > > > > > system.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be
                  > in
                  > > > the
                  > > > > > > 100" to
                  > > > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
                  > > > derailleur
                  > > > > > > system
                  > > > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and
                  > 14
                  > > > speed
                  > > > > > > gear
                  > > > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
                  > > > > > > comparable to
                  > > > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer
                  > 8
                  > > > > > speeds
                  > > > > > > are
                  > > > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM
                  > hub
                  > > > has a
                  > > > > > > 340%
                  > > > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%.
                  > These
                  > > > are
                  > > > > > > much
                  > > > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
                  > > > smalller
                  > > > > > > steps
                  > > > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and
                  > greater
                  > > > > > overall
                  > > > > > > gear
                  > > > > > > > ranges.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing
                  > steeper
                  > > > hills
                  > > > > > > while
                  > > > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the
                  > flat
                  > > > and/or
                  > > > > > > when
                  > > > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar
                  > ratios.
                  > > > All
                  > > > > > > also
                  > > > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3
                  > > > speed
                  > > > > > > unit
                  > > > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but
                  > there
                  > > > has
                  > > > > > > been
                  > > > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since.
                  > By
                  > > > > > modern
                  > > > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
                  > > > reasonably
                  > > > > > flat
                  > > > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent
                  > condition.
                  > > > From
                  > > > > > > an
                  > > > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite
                  > marginal
                  > > > and
                  > > > > > > the
                  > > > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Rich Wood
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                  > > > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or
                  > ratio
                  > > > > > would
                  > > > > > > my
                  > > > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
                  > > > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on
                  > a
                  > > > road
                  > > > > > > bike vs
                  > > > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed
                  > derailleur
                  > > > system
                  > > > > > > who
                  > > > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same
                  > rider?
                  > > > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Brandon
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Rich Wood
                  Brandon; I Googled Byron Bay and looked it up in my atlas. Looks like a resort town about 70 Km south of Surfers Paradise. The Google map also shows the
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 12, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Brandon;

                    I Googled Byron Bay and looked it up in my atlas. Looks like a
                    resort town about 70 Km south of Surfers Paradise. The Google map
                    also shows the surrounding towns. Which is yours? There is also a
                    Wikipedia entry for Byron Bay I read. Sounds like a nice area.

                    Rich Wood


                    --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                    <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I couldn't agree more Rich and i live somewhere you haven't heard
                    of so
                    > i will say it is near Byron bay and its not outback terrain like
                    most
                    > movies show Australia its very nice here with the beach close and
                    lots
                    > of nice potholed roads .
                    > and the weirdest thing is that on the riverbanks are bamboo so
                    figure
                    > that out [:-/]
                    > anyway i haven't heard of the rohloff hub before i joined this
                    group can
                    > you put a pic of one on a bike i would like to see the setup.
                    >
                    > Thanks.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                    <astronut1001@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Brandon;
                    > >
                    > > I am American and live in Reno, Nevada.
                    > >
                    > > SA does do an 8 speed hub though the gear range is wierd
                    compared to
                    > > Shimano, SRAM and Rohloff gear hubs.
                    > >
                    > > Derailleur gear trains are still lighter than the best high gear
                    > > count hubs, particularly the top end derailleur gear trains using
                    > > lots of carbon fiber and titanium in addition to aluminum.
                    Remember
                    > > that in a Tour bike price is not a consideration and they have
                    > > really top mechanics going over each bike with a microscope on a
                    > > daily basis.
                    > >
                    > > IMO the strengths of a gear hub, properly designed and made, are
                    > > long term dependability and much less susceptiblity to the
                    effects
                    > > of mud, dust and bad weather. Also once initial cable stretch is
                    > > out of the shifter cable they hold adjustment longer than
                    > > derailleurs.
                    > >
                    > > Per the book Bicycling Science, and test figures on the Rohloff
                    web
                    > > site, the derailleur gear train is very slightly more efficient.
                    > > This does vary however with the derailleur sprocket selection
                    being
                    > > used.
                    > >
                    > > A rear derailleur is very subject to damage from a fall or other
                    > > impact from riding in rocky areas such as mountain bikers do
                    > > routinely. The latest gear hubs from SRAM, Shimano and Rohloff
                    do
                    > > not have parts which protrude like a derailleur gear train does.
                    > > This makes them much less susceptible to damage in my opinion.
                    > >
                    > > Thorn Bicycles in England makes some really high end adventure
                    and
                    > > touring bikes. Their designer is a strong proponent of the
                    Rohloff
                    > > hub. He has used it for rough road touring in Australia,
                    Tasmania
                    > > and in South America. Rides have included multiple trips over
                    the
                    > > Andes on dirt and gravel roads to altitudes close to 15,000 feet
                    > > with no problems from the Rohloff hub. It seems to be virtually
                    > > unbreakable. To me this is an area of use where a gear hub
                    shines.
                    > >
                    > > Also better than derailleur gear trains for use in city riding
                    and
                    > > traffic due to the faster shifting and the ability to shift while
                    > > stopped at traffic lights or other stops. Just more user
                    friendly
                    > > overall in this environment.
                    > >
                    > > Rich Wood
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                    > > rogersbrandon96@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so
                    its
                    > > a
                    > > > close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old
                    > > rim.
                    > > > Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there
                    > > because
                    > > > Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up
                    til
                    > > the
                    > > > 1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
                    > > > Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs
                    when
                    > > > there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?
                    > > >
                    > > > I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into
                    > > production
                    > > > and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France
                    that
                    > > > would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to
                    derailleurs!
                    > > >
                    > > > Brandon.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                    > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Brandon;
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
                    > > Sturmey
                    > > > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use.
                    Almost
                    > > all
                    > > > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                    > > > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for
                    just
                    > > > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
                    > > > > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
                    > > > > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a
                    > > kiwi
                    > > > > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
                    > > > > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it
                    > > sound
                    > > > > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs
                    > > and
                    > > > > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
                    > > > > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
                    > > > > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided
                    immensely
                    > > in
                    > > > > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
                    > > > > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-
                    > > Maillard,
                    > > > > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem
                    to
                    > > be
                    > > > > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Rich Wood
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                    > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear
                    ratios
                    > > > > because
                    > > > > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i
                    laced
                    > > and
                    > > > > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then
                    > > contacted
                    > > > > my
                    > > > > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different
                    brand
                    > > > > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
                    > > > > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed
                    mine
                    > > > > wasn't
                    > > > > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this
                    was a
                    > > > > hundred
                    > > > > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength
                    riders
                    > > so i
                    > > > > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2
                    meters.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the
                    > > front
                    > > > > and i
                    > > > > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my
                    hub
                    > > just
                    > > > > kept
                    > > > > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown
                    what
                    > > bike
                    > > > > it
                    > > > > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side
                    of
                    > > the
                    > > > > road.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Brandon.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                    > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Brandon;
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM
                    > > three
                    > > > > speed
                    > > > > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it
                    > > after a
                    > > > > > > minimal Google search.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing
                    > > range
                    > > > > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW
                    hub.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Rich Wood
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                    > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Brandon;
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
                    > > > > Rohloff 14
                    > > > > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a
                    high
                    > > of
                    > > > > > > 110".
                    > > > > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27"
                    and
                    > > a
                    > > > > high
                    > > > > > > of
                    > > > > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not
                    > > been
                    > > > > > > modified
                    > > > > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a
                    high
                    > > > > gear
                    > > > > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use,
                    > > should
                    > > > > be
                    > > > > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good
                    > > knees.
                    > > > > > > Spinning
                    > > > > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the
                    > > joints
                    > > > > and
                    > > > > > > leg
                    > > > > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of
                    bicycle
                    > > gear
                    > > > > > > inches
                    > > > > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO
                    should
                    > > be
                    > > > > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it,
                    and so
                    > > can
                    > > > > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which
                    > > seems to
                    > > > > me
                    > > > > > > to
                    > > > > > > > be more logical.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Rich Wood
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                    > > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Brandon;
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in
                    > > first,
                    > > > > 1.0
                    > > > > > > > in
                    > > > > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to
                    > > high is
                    > > > > > > > 177%.
                    > > > > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+
                    > > years
                    > > > > > > > Sturmey
                    > > > > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
                    > > > > internal
                    > > > > > > > ratios.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined
                    by
                    > > > > > > chainring
                    > > > > > > > and
                    > > > > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
                    > > > > Generally
                    > > > > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a
                    > > high
                    > > > > gear
                    > > > > > > of
                    > > > > > > > 80"
                    > > > > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of
                    > > around
                    > > > > 45"
                    > > > > > > > which is
                    > > > > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
                    > > > > depending
                    > > > > > > on
                    > > > > > > > the
                    > > > > > > > > rider's condition.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250%
                    to
                    > > 300%
                    > > > > for
                    > > > > > > a
                    > > > > > > > two
                    > > > > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%,
                    and
                    > > an
                    > > > > > > > extreme of
                    > > > > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike
                    > > derailleur
                    > > > > > > > system.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to
                    be
                    > > in
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > > > 100" to
                    > > > > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
                    > > > > derailleur
                    > > > > > > > system
                    > > > > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9
                    and
                    > > 14
                    > > > > speed
                    > > > > > > > gear
                    > > > > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear
                    ranges
                    > > > > > > > comparable to
                    > > > > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey
                    Archer
                    > > 8
                    > > > > > > speeds
                    > > > > > > > are
                    > > > > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed
                    SRAM
                    > > hub
                    > > > > has a
                    > > > > > > > 340%
                    > > > > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%.
                    > > These
                    > > > > are
                    > > > > > > > much
                    > > > > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
                    > > > > smalller
                    > > > > > > > steps
                    > > > > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and
                    > > greater
                    > > > > > > overall
                    > > > > > > > gear
                    > > > > > > > > ranges.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing
                    > > steeper
                    > > > > hills
                    > > > > > > > while
                    > > > > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the
                    > > flat
                    > > > > and/or
                    > > > > > > > when
                    > > > > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar
                    > > ratios.
                    > > > > All
                    > > > > > > > also
                    > > > > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey
                    Archer 3
                    > > > > speed
                    > > > > > > > unit
                    > > > > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but
                    > > there
                    > > > > has
                    > > > > > > > been
                    > > > > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs
                    since.
                    > > By
                    > > > > > > modern
                    > > > > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
                    > > > > reasonably
                    > > > > > > flat
                    > > > > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent
                    > > condition.
                    > > > > From
                    > > > > > > > an
                    > > > > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite
                    > > marginal
                    > > > > and
                    > > > > > > > the
                    > > > > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Rich Wood
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                    > > > > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or
                    > > ratio
                    > > > > > > would
                    > > > > > > > my
                    > > > > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur
                    system?
                    > > > > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub
                    installed on
                    > > a
                    > > > > road
                    > > > > > > > bike vs
                    > > > > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed
                    > > derailleur
                    > > > > system
                    > > > > > > > who
                    > > > > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same
                    > > rider?
                    > > > > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > Brandon
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • brandon
                    My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn t know they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs. The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 12, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn't know
                      they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs.

                      The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you like it a very
                      amazing bit of machinery i wouldn't mind one myself.

                      My hub didn't have wing nuts when i got it because it didn't have any
                      nuts on it so it could have had wing nuts it is made in England and is
                      genuine.

                      I have a couple of sturmey archers i will put one on here have a look
                      in my Sturmey archer folder.

                      Surfers paradise is a great place to ride i can drive there on the
                      pacific highway and it takes about 1 hour but ballina is one very nice
                      place to ride with plenty of bike paths and is flat and best of all it
                      is next to the beach.

                      i also collect vintage bicycles i have a 1969 SA S5 hub with two
                      cables one one side is the classic indicator chain and on the left
                      side is a shimano type push rod changer it pushes a thin rod into the
                      hub to change gears i have completely rebuilt it and it is a extremely
                      good hub.

                      Brandon.


                      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                      <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Brandon;
                      >
                      > I Googled Byron Bay and looked it up in my atlas. Looks like a
                      > resort town about 70 Km south of Surfers Paradise. The Google map
                      > also shows the surrounding towns. Which is yours? There is also a
                      > Wikipedia entry for Byron Bay I read. Sounds like a nice area.
                      >
                      > Rich Wood
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                      > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I couldn't agree more Rich and i live somewhere you haven't heard
                      > of so
                      > > i will say it is near Byron bay and its not outback terrain like
                      > most
                      > > movies show Australia its very nice here with the beach close and
                      > lots
                      > > of nice potholed roads .
                      > > and the weirdest thing is that on the riverbanks are bamboo so
                      > figure
                      > > that out [:-/]
                      > > anyway i haven't heard of the rohloff hub before i joined this
                      > group can
                      > > you put a pic of one on a bike i would like to see the setup.
                      > >
                      > > Thanks.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                      > <astronut1001@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Brandon;
                      > > >
                      > > > I am American and live in Reno, Nevada.
                      > > >
                      > > > SA does do an 8 speed hub though the gear range is wierd
                      > compared to
                      > > > Shimano, SRAM and Rohloff gear hubs.
                      > > >
                      > > > Derailleur gear trains are still lighter than the best high gear
                      > > > count hubs, particularly the top end derailleur gear trains using
                      > > > lots of carbon fiber and titanium in addition to aluminum.
                      > Remember
                      > > > that in a Tour bike price is not a consideration and they have
                      > > > really top mechanics going over each bike with a microscope on a
                      > > > daily basis.
                      > > >
                      > > > IMO the strengths of a gear hub, properly designed and made, are
                      > > > long term dependability and much less susceptiblity to the
                      > effects
                      > > > of mud, dust and bad weather. Also once initial cable stretch is
                      > > > out of the shifter cable they hold adjustment longer than
                      > > > derailleurs.
                      > > >
                      > > > Per the book Bicycling Science, and test figures on the Rohloff
                      > web
                      > > > site, the derailleur gear train is very slightly more efficient.
                      > > > This does vary however with the derailleur sprocket selection
                      > being
                      > > > used.
                      > > >
                      > > > A rear derailleur is very subject to damage from a fall or other
                      > > > impact from riding in rocky areas such as mountain bikers do
                      > > > routinely. The latest gear hubs from SRAM, Shimano and Rohloff
                      > do
                      > > > not have parts which protrude like a derailleur gear train does.
                      > > > This makes them much less susceptible to damage in my opinion.
                      > > >
                      > > > Thorn Bicycles in England makes some really high end adventure
                      > and
                      > > > touring bikes. Their designer is a strong proponent of the
                      > Rohloff
                      > > > hub. He has used it for rough road touring in Australia,
                      > Tasmania
                      > > > and in South America. Rides have included multiple trips over
                      > the
                      > > > Andes on dirt and gravel roads to altitudes close to 15,000 feet
                      > > > with no problems from the Rohloff hub. It seems to be virtually
                      > > > unbreakable. To me this is an area of use where a gear hub
                      > shines.
                      > > >
                      > > > Also better than derailleur gear trains for use in city riding
                      > and
                      > > > traffic due to the faster shifting and the ability to shift while
                      > > > stopped at traffic lights or other stops. Just more user
                      > friendly
                      > > > overall in this environment.
                      > > >
                      > > > Rich Wood
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                      > > > rogersbrandon96@ wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so
                      > its
                      > > > a
                      > > > > close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old
                      > > > rim.
                      > > > > Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there
                      > > > because
                      > > > > Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up
                      > til
                      > > > the
                      > > > > 1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
                      > > > > Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs
                      > when
                      > > > > there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into
                      > > > production
                      > > > > and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France
                      > that
                      > > > > would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to
                      > derailleurs!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Brandon.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                      > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Brandon;
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
                      > > > Sturmey
                      > > > > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use.
                      > Almost
                      > > > all
                      > > > > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                      > > > > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for
                      > just
                      > > > > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
                      > > > > > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
                      > > > > > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a
                      > > > kiwi
                      > > > > > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
                      > > > > > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it
                      > > > sound
                      > > > > > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs
                      > > > and
                      > > > > > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
                      > > > > > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
                      > > > > > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided
                      > immensely
                      > > > in
                      > > > > > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
                      > > > > > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-
                      > > > Maillard,
                      > > > > > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem
                      > to
                      > > > be
                      > > > > > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Rich Wood
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                      > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear
                      > ratios
                      > > > > > because
                      > > > > > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i
                      > laced
                      > > > and
                      > > > > > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then
                      > > > contacted
                      > > > > > my
                      > > > > > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different
                      > brand
                      > > > > > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
                      > > > > > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed
                      > mine
                      > > > > > wasn't
                      > > > > > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this
                      > was a
                      > > > > > hundred
                      > > > > > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength
                      > riders
                      > > > so i
                      > > > > > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2
                      > meters.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the
                      > > > front
                      > > > > > and i
                      > > > > > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my
                      > hub
                      > > > just
                      > > > > > kept
                      > > > > > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown
                      > what
                      > > > bike
                      > > > > > it
                      > > > > > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side
                      > of
                      > > > the
                      > > > > > road.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Brandon.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                      > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Brandon;
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM
                      > > > three
                      > > > > > speed
                      > > > > > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it
                      > > > after a
                      > > > > > > > minimal Google search.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing
                      > > > range
                      > > > > > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW
                      > hub.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Rich Wood
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                      > > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Brandon;
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
                      > > > > > Rohloff 14
                      > > > > > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a
                      > high
                      > > > of
                      > > > > > > > 110".
                      > > > > > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27"
                      > and
                      > > > a
                      > > > > > high
                      > > > > > > > of
                      > > > > > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not
                      > > > been
                      > > > > > > > modified
                      > > > > > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a
                      > high
                      > > > > > gear
                      > > > > > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use,
                      > > > should
                      > > > > > be
                      > > > > > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good
                      > > > knees.
                      > > > > > > > Spinning
                      > > > > > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the
                      > > > joints
                      > > > > > and
                      > > > > > > > leg
                      > > > > > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of
                      > bicycle
                      > > > gear
                      > > > > > > > inches
                      > > > > > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO
                      > should
                      > > > be
                      > > > > > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it,
                      > and so
                      > > > can
                      > > > > > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which
                      > > > seems to
                      > > > > > me
                      > > > > > > > to
                      > > > > > > > > be more logical.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Rich Wood
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                      > > > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Brandon;
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in
                      > > > first,
                      > > > > > 1.0
                      > > > > > > > > in
                      > > > > > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to
                      > > > high is
                      > > > > > > > > 177%.
                      > > > > > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+
                      > > > years
                      > > > > > > > > Sturmey
                      > > > > > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
                      > > > > > internal
                      > > > > > > > > ratios.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined
                      > by
                      > > > > > > > chainring
                      > > > > > > > > and
                      > > > > > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
                      > > > > > Generally
                      > > > > > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a
                      > > > high
                      > > > > > gear
                      > > > > > > > of
                      > > > > > > > > 80"
                      > > > > > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of
                      > > > around
                      > > > > > 45"
                      > > > > > > > > which is
                      > > > > > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
                      > > > > > depending
                      > > > > > > > on
                      > > > > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > > > > rider's condition.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250%
                      > to
                      > > > 300%
                      > > > > > for
                      > > > > > > > a
                      > > > > > > > > two
                      > > > > > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%,
                      > and
                      > > > an
                      > > > > > > > > extreme of
                      > > > > > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike
                      > > > derailleur
                      > > > > > > > > system.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to
                      > be
                      > > > in
                      > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > > > 100" to
                      > > > > > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
                      > > > > > derailleur
                      > > > > > > > > system
                      > > > > > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9
                      > and
                      > > > 14
                      > > > > > speed
                      > > > > > > > > gear
                      > > > > > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear
                      > ranges
                      > > > > > > > > comparable to
                      > > > > > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey
                      > Archer
                      > > > 8
                      > > > > > > > speeds
                      > > > > > > > > are
                      > > > > > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed
                      > SRAM
                      > > > hub
                      > > > > > has a
                      > > > > > > > > 340%
                      > > > > > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%.
                      > > > These
                      > > > > > are
                      > > > > > > > > much
                      > > > > > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
                      > > > > > smalller
                      > > > > > > > > steps
                      > > > > > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and
                      > > > greater
                      > > > > > > > overall
                      > > > > > > > > gear
                      > > > > > > > > > ranges.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing
                      > > > steeper
                      > > > > > hills
                      > > > > > > > > while
                      > > > > > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the
                      > > > flat
                      > > > > > and/or
                      > > > > > > > > when
                      > > > > > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar
                      > > > ratios.
                      > > > > > All
                      > > > > > > > > also
                      > > > > > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey
                      > Archer 3
                      > > > > > speed
                      > > > > > > > > unit
                      > > > > > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but
                      > > > there
                      > > > > > has
                      > > > > > > > > been
                      > > > > > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs
                      > since.
                      > > > By
                      > > > > > > > modern
                      > > > > > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
                      > > > > > reasonably
                      > > > > > > > flat
                      > > > > > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent
                      > > > condition.
                      > > > > > From
                      > > > > > > > > an
                      > > > > > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite
                      > > > marginal
                      > > > > > and
                      > > > > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Rich Wood
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                      > > > > > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or
                      > > > ratio
                      > > > > > > > would
                      > > > > > > > > my
                      > > > > > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur
                      > system?
                      > > > > > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub
                      > installed on
                      > > > a
                      > > > > > road
                      > > > > > > > > bike vs
                      > > > > > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed
                      > > > derailleur
                      > > > > > system
                      > > > > > > > > who
                      > > > > > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same
                      > > > rider?
                      > > > > > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
                      > > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > > Brandon
                      > > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Rich Wood
                      Brandon; Rohloff, Shimano, Sturmey Archer and SRAM all now have some hub versions that can have brake discs mounted per their web sites. Disc brake calipers
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 12, 2008
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                        Brandon;

                        Rohloff, Shimano, Sturmey Archer and SRAM all now have some hub
                        versions that can have brake discs mounted per their web sites.
                        Disc brake calipers still need special caliper mounting provisions
                        on the frame and front forks however.

                        Disc brakes are much better working than rim brakes in wet weather.
                        This is particularly true of rim brakes and the old steel rims, a
                        bad combination in the wet with most caliper brake pad materials.

                        Heavier than caliper brakes but no rim wear or worries about tires
                        overheating in long downhill descents. Disc brakes are becoming
                        commoner on commuter and city bikes in the U.S. due to their better
                        wet weather performance. Also very common on better mountain bikes.

                        If you take a look at the Sturmey Archer web site they still list 3,
                        5 and 8 speed hubs in quite a variety. No idea of availability down
                        under however. Here is a link to the hubs on the current SA web
                        site.

                        http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs.php

                        Rohloff does have an Aussie branch. Here is a link to it.

                        http://www.rohloff.com.au/

                        Not nearly as complete as the Rohloff main site as some links seem
                        to be not functional on the Aussie site. If you are truly
                        interested in Rohloff hubs go to the main site and download the
                        manual in PDF format, a total of about 132 pages. It is in 3 parts
                        in PDF format. Here is a link to their downloads page. If nothing
                        else it is an interesting read if you are a technofreak.

                        http://www.rohloff.de/en/download/description/index.html#c1453

                        Rich Wood


                        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                        <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn't know
                        > they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs.
                        >
                        > The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you like it a very
                        > amazing bit of machinery i wouldn't mind one myself.
                        >
                        > My hub didn't have wing nuts when i got it because it didn't have
                        any
                        > nuts on it so it could have had wing nuts it is made in England
                        and is
                        > genuine.
                        >
                        > I have a couple of sturmey archers i will put one on here have a
                        look
                        > in my Sturmey archer folder.
                        >
                        > Surfers paradise is a great place to ride i can drive there on the
                        > pacific highway and it takes about 1 hour but ballina is one very
                        nice
                        > place to ride with plenty of bike paths and is flat and best of
                        all it
                        > is next to the beach.
                        >
                        > i also collect vintage bicycles i have a 1969 SA S5 hub with two
                        > cables one one side is the classic indicator chain and on the left
                        > side is a shimano type push rod changer it pushes a thin rod into
                        the
                        > hub to change gears i have completely rebuilt it and it is a
                        extremely
                        > good hub.
                        >
                        > Brandon.
                        >
                        >
                      • brandon
                        Disc brakes are expensive but effective on mountain bikes and yes i would prefer to have disc brakes on my bike in the wet also have you heard of the old S5
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 12, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Disc brakes are expensive but effective on mountain bikes and yes i
                          would prefer to have disc brakes on my bike in the wet also have you
                          heard of the old S5 rich?, its a interesting hub used on 1970s
                          dragsters and touring bikes.
                          I would like a rohloff but they are from a bike review site $850!
                          probably worth it but with the same money i could buy a brand new
                          giant road bike and have a shimano nexus hub installed on it.

                          Brandon.



                          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                          <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Brandon;
                          >
                          > Rohloff, Shimano, Sturmey Archer and SRAM all now have some hub
                          > versions that can have brake discs mounted per their web sites.
                          > Disc brake calipers still need special caliper mounting provisions
                          > on the frame and front forks however.
                          >
                          > Disc brakes are much better working than rim brakes in wet weather.
                          > This is particularly true of rim brakes and the old steel rims, a
                          > bad combination in the wet with most caliper brake pad materials.
                          >
                          > Heavier than caliper brakes but no rim wear or worries about tires
                          > overheating in long downhill descents. Disc brakes are becoming
                          > commoner on commuter and city bikes in the U.S. due to their better
                          > wet weather performance. Also very common on better mountain bikes.
                          >
                          > If you take a look at the Sturmey Archer web site they still list 3,
                          > 5 and 8 speed hubs in quite a variety. No idea of availability down
                          > under however. Here is a link to the hubs on the current SA web
                          > site.
                          >
                          > http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs.php
                          >
                          > Rohloff does have an Aussie branch. Here is a link to it.
                          >
                          > http://www.rohloff.com.au/
                          >
                          > Not nearly as complete as the Rohloff main site as some links seem
                          > to be not functional on the Aussie site. If you are truly
                          > interested in Rohloff hubs go to the main site and download the
                          > manual in PDF format, a total of about 132 pages. It is in 3 parts
                          > in PDF format. Here is a link to their downloads page. If nothing
                          > else it is an interesting read if you are a technofreak.
                          >
                          > http://www.rohloff.de/en/download/description/index.html#c1453
                          >
                          > Rich Wood
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                          > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn't know
                          > > they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs.
                          > >
                          > > The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you like it a very
                          > > amazing bit of machinery i wouldn't mind one myself.
                          > >
                          > > My hub didn't have wing nuts when i got it because it didn't have
                          > any
                          > > nuts on it so it could have had wing nuts it is made in England
                          > and is
                          > > genuine.
                          > >
                          > > I have a couple of sturmey archers i will put one on here have a
                          > look
                          > > in my Sturmey archer folder.
                          > >
                          > > Surfers paradise is a great place to ride i can drive there on the
                          > > pacific highway and it takes about 1 hour but ballina is one very
                          > nice
                          > > place to ride with plenty of bike paths and is flat and best of
                          > all it
                          > > is next to the beach.
                          > >
                          > > i also collect vintage bicycles i have a 1969 SA S5 hub with two
                          > > cables one one side is the classic indicator chain and on the left
                          > > side is a shimano type push rod changer it pushes a thin rod into
                          > the
                          > > hub to change gears i have completely rebuilt it and it is a
                          > extremely
                          > > good hub.
                          > >
                          > > Brandon.
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Rich Wood
                          Brandon; Not sure if it is the same unit but the Sturmey Archer web site still lists an S5 model gear hub. Probably not as it looks like the current S5 has a
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 13, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Brandon;

                            Not sure if it is the same unit but the Sturmey Archer web site
                            still lists an S5 model gear hub. Probably not as it looks like the
                            current S5 has a single cable control. Heard of it but I have never
                            seen one.

                            With the weak U.S. dollar the Rohloff hub is now in the $1200 to
                            $1500 range here depending on configuration.

                            Basically I consider it to be the Campy Record or Shimano Dura Ace
                            hub equivalent or maybe, considering it's gear range, the Shimano
                            XTR of hubs. By reputation more durable than any of the above
                            however. According to a PDF on the Thorn bikes web site about use
                            of the hub, one owner has reportedly covered 190,000 Km on his
                            Rohloff hub without failure, not counting cables and output
                            sprockets I would presume. Not sure how many derailleurs, casettes
                            and chainrings you would go through in that distance but I suspect a
                            lot.

                            When you look at the top end Shimano and Campy derailleur setups
                            with derailleurs, combined brake and shifter levers along with rear
                            hub and casette the Rohloff price does not appear too bad. A recent
                            price check I did showed the Campy Record rear derailleur at over
                            $400 and the brifters at about $600 U.S.

                            I am thinking of getting the SRAM 5 speed hub and building a wheel
                            for my fixed gear bike frame. I currently have the fixed gear wheel
                            and a older Sachs 3 speed wheel for it. The SRAM unit is available
                            with the proper width to fit the narrow frame dropouts well.

                            Rich Wood


                            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                            <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Disc brakes are expensive but effective on mountain bikes and yes i
                            > would prefer to have disc brakes on my bike in the wet also have
                            you
                            > heard of the old S5 rich?, its a interesting hub used on 1970s
                            > dragsters and touring bikes.
                            > I would like a rohloff but they are from a bike review site $850!
                            > probably worth it but with the same money i could buy a brand new
                            > giant road bike and have a shimano nexus hub installed on it.
                            >
                            > Brandon.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                            > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Brandon;
                            > >
                            > > Rohloff, Shimano, Sturmey Archer and SRAM all now have some hub
                            > > versions that can have brake discs mounted per their web sites.
                            > > Disc brake calipers still need special caliper mounting
                            provisions
                            > > on the frame and front forks however.
                            > >
                            > > Disc brakes are much better working than rim brakes in wet
                            weather.
                            > > This is particularly true of rim brakes and the old steel rims,
                            a
                            > > bad combination in the wet with most caliper brake pad
                            materials.
                            > >
                            > > Heavier than caliper brakes but no rim wear or worries about
                            tires
                            > > overheating in long downhill descents. Disc brakes are becoming
                            > > commoner on commuter and city bikes in the U.S. due to their
                            better
                            > > wet weather performance. Also very common on better mountain
                            bikes.
                            > >
                            > > If you take a look at the Sturmey Archer web site they still
                            list 3,
                            > > 5 and 8 speed hubs in quite a variety. No idea of availability
                            down
                            > > under however. Here is a link to the hubs on the current SA web
                            > > site.
                            > >
                            > > http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs.php
                            > >
                            > > Rohloff does have an Aussie branch. Here is a link to it.
                            > >
                            > > http://www.rohloff.com.au/
                            > >
                            > > Not nearly as complete as the Rohloff main site as some links
                            seem
                            > > to be not functional on the Aussie site. If you are truly
                            > > interested in Rohloff hubs go to the main site and download the
                            > > manual in PDF format, a total of about 132 pages. It is in 3
                            parts
                            > > in PDF format. Here is a link to their downloads page. If
                            nothing
                            > > else it is an interesting read if you are a technofreak.
                            > >
                            > > http://www.rohloff.de/en/download/description/index.html#c1453
                            > >
                            > > Rich Wood
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                            > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn't
                            know
                            > > > they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs.
                            > > >
                            > > > The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you like it a very
                            > > > amazing bit of machinery i wouldn't mind one myself.
                            > > >
                            > > > My hub didn't have wing nuts when i got it because it didn't
                            have
                            > > any
                            > > > nuts on it so it could have had wing nuts it is made in
                            England
                            > > and is
                            > > > genuine.
                            > > >
                            > > > I have a couple of sturmey archers i will put one on here have
                            a
                            > > look
                            > > > in my Sturmey archer folder.
                            > > >
                            > > > Surfers paradise is a great place to ride i can drive there on
                            the
                            > > > pacific highway and it takes about 1 hour but ballina is one
                            very
                            > > nice
                            > > > place to ride with plenty of bike paths and is flat and best
                            of
                            > > all it
                            > > > is next to the beach.
                            > > >
                            > > > i also collect vintage bicycles i have a 1969 SA S5 hub with
                            two
                            > > > cables one one side is the classic indicator chain and on the
                            left
                            > > > side is a shimano type push rod changer it pushes a thin rod
                            into
                            > > the
                            > > > hub to change gears i have completely rebuilt it and it is a
                            > > extremely
                            > > > good hub.
                            > > >
                            > > > Brandon.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • brandon
                            I am putting a picture of my S5 on here. Brandon.
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 13, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I am putting a picture of my S5 on here.

                              Brandon.
                              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                              <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Brandon;
                              >
                              > Not sure if it is the same unit but the Sturmey Archer web site
                              > still lists an S5 model gear hub. Probably not as it looks like the
                              > current S5 has a single cable control. Heard of it but I have never
                              > seen one.
                              >
                              > With the weak U.S. dollar the Rohloff hub is now in the $1200 to
                              > $1500 range here depending on configuration.
                              >
                              > Basically I consider it to be the Campy Record or Shimano Dura Ace
                              > hub equivalent or maybe, considering it's gear range, the Shimano
                              > XTR of hubs. By reputation more durable than any of the above
                              > however. According to a PDF on the Thorn bikes web site about use
                              > of the hub, one owner has reportedly covered 190,000 Km on his
                              > Rohloff hub without failure, not counting cables and output
                              > sprockets I would presume. Not sure how many derailleurs, casettes
                              > and chainrings you would go through in that distance but I suspect a
                              > lot.
                              >
                              > When you look at the top end Shimano and Campy derailleur setups
                              > with derailleurs, combined brake and shifter levers along with rear
                              > hub and casette the Rohloff price does not appear too bad. A recent
                              > price check I did showed the Campy Record rear derailleur at over
                              > $400 and the brifters at about $600 U.S.
                              >
                              > I am thinking of getting the SRAM 5 speed hub and building a wheel
                              > for my fixed gear bike frame. I currently have the fixed gear wheel
                              > and a older Sachs 3 speed wheel for it. The SRAM unit is available
                              > with the proper width to fit the narrow frame dropouts well.
                              >
                              > Rich Wood
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                              > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Disc brakes are expensive but effective on mountain bikes and yes i
                              > > would prefer to have disc brakes on my bike in the wet also have
                              > you
                              > > heard of the old S5 rich?, its a interesting hub used on 1970s
                              > > dragsters and touring bikes.
                              > > I would like a rohloff but they are from a bike review site $850!
                              > > probably worth it but with the same money i could buy a brand new
                              > > giant road bike and have a shimano nexus hub installed on it.
                              > >
                              > > Brandon.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                              > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Brandon;
                              > > >
                              > > > Rohloff, Shimano, Sturmey Archer and SRAM all now have some hub
                              > > > versions that can have brake discs mounted per their web sites.
                              > > > Disc brake calipers still need special caliper mounting
                              > provisions
                              > > > on the frame and front forks however.
                              > > >
                              > > > Disc brakes are much better working than rim brakes in wet
                              > weather.
                              > > > This is particularly true of rim brakes and the old steel rims,
                              > a
                              > > > bad combination in the wet with most caliper brake pad
                              > materials.
                              > > >
                              > > > Heavier than caliper brakes but no rim wear or worries about
                              > tires
                              > > > overheating in long downhill descents. Disc brakes are becoming
                              > > > commoner on commuter and city bikes in the U.S. due to their
                              > better
                              > > > wet weather performance. Also very common on better mountain
                              > bikes.
                              > > >
                              > > > If you take a look at the Sturmey Archer web site they still
                              > list 3,
                              > > > 5 and 8 speed hubs in quite a variety. No idea of availability
                              > down
                              > > > under however. Here is a link to the hubs on the current SA web
                              > > > site.
                              > > >
                              > > > http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs.php
                              > > >
                              > > > Rohloff does have an Aussie branch. Here is a link to it.
                              > > >
                              > > > http://www.rohloff.com.au/
                              > > >
                              > > > Not nearly as complete as the Rohloff main site as some links
                              > seem
                              > > > to be not functional on the Aussie site. If you are truly
                              > > > interested in Rohloff hubs go to the main site and download the
                              > > > manual in PDF format, a total of about 132 pages. It is in 3
                              > parts
                              > > > in PDF format. Here is a link to their downloads page. If
                              > nothing
                              > > > else it is an interesting read if you are a technofreak.
                              > > >
                              > > > http://www.rohloff.de/en/download/description/index.html#c1453
                              > > >
                              > > > Rich Wood
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                              > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn't
                              > know
                              > > > > they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you like it a very
                              > > > > amazing bit of machinery i wouldn't mind one myself.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > My hub didn't have wing nuts when i got it because it didn't
                              > have
                              > > > any
                              > > > > nuts on it so it could have had wing nuts it is made in
                              > England
                              > > > and is
                              > > > > genuine.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I have a couple of sturmey archers i will put one on here have
                              > a
                              > > > look
                              > > > > in my Sturmey archer folder.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Surfers paradise is a great place to ride i can drive there on
                              > the
                              > > > > pacific highway and it takes about 1 hour but ballina is one
                              > very
                              > > > nice
                              > > > > place to ride with plenty of bike paths and is flat and best
                              > of
                              > > > all it
                              > > > > is next to the beach.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > i also collect vintage bicycles i have a 1969 SA S5 hub with
                              > two
                              > > > > cables one one side is the classic indicator chain and on the
                              > left
                              > > > > side is a shimano type push rod changer it pushes a thin rod
                              > into
                              > > > the
                              > > > > hub to change gears i have completely rebuilt it and it is a
                              > > > extremely
                              > > > > good hub.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Brandon.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Mark Stonich
                              ... While I m sure some were raced, the AM was intended for the non-competitive sporting rider. The AC and earlier AR had much closer ratios and were better
                              Message 14 of 20 , Nov 21, 2008
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                                --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                                > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare Sturmey
                                > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost all
                                > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                                > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                                > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.

                                While I'm sure some were raced, the AM was intended for the
                                non-competitive sporting rider. The AC and earlier AR had much closer
                                ratios and were better suited for TTs.

                                Looking at the exploded views on Hadland's site The AM appears to be
                                much more robust. Much the same design as the FW & S5. One of the
                                guys on our Saturday rides uses an AM, even when we go off-road. And
                                we've had a few on the Lake Pepin event.
                              • Mike Bullis
                                I ve been inside my AM once or twice and I would have guessed I was looking at the guts of an FW or S5, except for the lack of a secondary sun gear. Got
                                Message 15 of 20 , Nov 21, 2008
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                                  I've been inside my AM once or twice and I would have guessed I was looking at the guts of an FW or S5, except for the lack of a secondary sun gear. Got lucky recently when I bought a box of parts and there were a few AM and few FW shift rods in it.

                                  --- On Fri, 11/21/08, Mark Stonich <mark@...> wrote:
                                  From: Mark Stonich <mark@...>
                                  Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Sturmey archer question
                                  To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Friday, November 21, 2008, 7:39 PM

                                  --- In Geared_hub_bikes@ yahoogroups. com, "Rich Wood"
                                  > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare Sturmey
                                  > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost all
                                  > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                                  > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                                  > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.

                                  While I'm sure some were raced, the AM was intended for the
                                  non-competitive sporting rider. The AC and earlier AR had much closer
                                  ratios and were better suited for TTs.

                                  Looking at the exploded views on Hadland's site The AM appears to be
                                  much more robust. Much the same design as the FW & S5. One of the
                                  guys on our Saturday rides uses an AM, even when we go off-road. And
                                  we've had a few on the Lake Pepin event.


                                • Rich Wood
                                  Mark; Were virtually all British TTs reasonably flat? I remember a TDF TT that was held on Alp d Huez as I recall. ;-) Rich Wood ... Sturmey ... all ...
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Nov 22, 2008
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                                    Mark;

                                    Were virtually all British TTs reasonably flat? I remember a TDF TT
                                    that was held on Alp d'Huez as I recall. ;-)

                                    Rich Wood


                                    --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Stonich" <mark@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                                    > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
                                    Sturmey
                                    > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost
                                    all
                                    > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                                    > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                                    > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
                                    >
                                    > While I'm sure some were raced, the AM was intended for the
                                    > non-competitive sporting rider. The AC and earlier AR had much
                                    closer
                                    > ratios and were better suited for TTs.
                                    >
                                    > Looking at the exploded views on Hadland's site The AM appears to
                                    be
                                    > much more robust. Much the same design as the FW & S5. One of the
                                    > guys on our Saturday rides uses an AM, even when we go off-road.
                                    And
                                    > we've had a few on the Lake Pepin event.
                                    >
                                  • Mark Stonich
                                    ... I don t know about virtually all but there was a tendency to design courses that would produce fast times. Such as using the shoulders of busy motorways
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Nov 25, 2008
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                                      At 11:59 AM 11/22/2008, you wrote:
                                      >Were virtually all British TTs reasonably flat?

                                      I don't know about "virtually all" but there was a tendency to design
                                      courses that would produce fast times. Such as using the shoulders
                                      of busy motorways to take advantage of the "Tailwind" created by
                                      passing cars. I do know that John Woodburn used ACs and FCs for his
                                      attempts at the Cardiff to London record which he finally got. 162
                                      miles and not particularly flat. Hill climbs were basically uphill
                                      TTs and usually done on a single speed bike.

                                      >I remember a TDF TT that was held on Alp d'Huez as I recall. ;-)

                                      Refresh my memory, is that in Surry or Kent?


                                      Mark Stonich;
                                      BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                                      5349 Elliot Ave S. - Minneapolis. MN 55417
                                      Ph. (612) 824-2372 http://bikesmithdesign.com
                                      http://mnhpva.org
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