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Sturmey archer question

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  • brandon
    If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or ratio would my sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system? And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 9, 2008
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      If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or ratio would my
      sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
      And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on a road bike vs
      a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed derailleur system who
      would win on a flat stretch of road with the same rider?
      (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)

      Brandon
    • Rich Wood
      Brandon; The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in first, 1.0 in second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to high is 177%. This is for the
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 9, 2008
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        Brandon;

        The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in first, 1.0 in
        second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to high is 177%.
        This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+ years Sturmey
        Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various internal ratios.

        Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by chainring and
        sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range. Generally
        speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a high gear of 80"
        to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of around 45" which is
        low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing, depending on the
        rider's condition.

        Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to 300% for a two
        chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and an extreme of
        600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike derailleur system.

        The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be in the 100" to
        120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the derailleur system
        in high gear will provide greater speed.

        One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and 14 speed gear
        hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges comparable to
        many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer 8 speeds are
        in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM hub has a 340%
        range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%. These are much
        more competitive with derailleur systems. They have smalller steps
        between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and greater overall gear
        ranges.

        These units allow a lower low for easily climbing steeper hills while
        also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the flat and/or when
        pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.

        All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar ratios. All also
        are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3 speed unit
        introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but there has been
        major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since. By modern
        standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for reasonably flat
        terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent condition. From an
        ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite marginal and the
        jumps between ratios are too great.

        Rich Wood


        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
        <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
        >
        > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or ratio would my
        > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
        > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on a road bike vs
        > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed derailleur system who
        > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same rider?
        > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
        >
        > Brandon
        >
      • Rich Wood
        Brandon; I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my Rohloff 14 speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21 and a high of 110 . My Swobo Dixon
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 9, 2008
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          Brandon;

          I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my Rohloff 14
          speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high of 110".
          My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and a high of
          about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not been modified
          by changing chain rings or sprockets.

          Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high gear
          higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use, should be
          confined to riders in excellent condition with good knees. Spinning
          a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the joints and leg
          muscles than straining in a higher gear.

          If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle gear inches
          just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should be
          replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so can
          relate to it. Europeans use a different system which seems to me to
          be more logical.

          Rich Wood


          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
          <astronut1001@...> wrote:
          >
          > Brandon;
          >
          > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in first, 1.0
          in
          > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to high is
          177%.
          > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+ years
          Sturmey
          > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various internal
          ratios.
          >
          > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by chainring
          and
          > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range. Generally
          > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a high gear of
          80"
          > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of around 45"
          which is
          > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing, depending on
          the
          > rider's condition.
          >
          > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to 300% for a
          two
          > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and an
          extreme of
          > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike derailleur
          system.
          >
          > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be in the
          100" to
          > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the derailleur
          system
          > in high gear will provide greater speed.
          >
          > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and 14 speed
          gear
          > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
          comparable to
          > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer 8 speeds
          are
          > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM hub has a
          340%
          > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%. These are
          much
          > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have smalller
          steps
          > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and greater overall
          gear
          > ranges.
          >
          > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing steeper hills
          while
          > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the flat and/or
          when
          > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
          >
          > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar ratios. All
          also
          > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3 speed
          unit
          > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but there has
          been
          > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since. By modern
          > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for reasonably flat
          > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent condition. From
          an
          > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite marginal and
          the
          > jumps between ratios are too great.
          >
          > Rich Wood
          >
          >
          > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
          > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
          > >
          > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or ratio would
          my
          > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
          > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on a road
          bike vs
          > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed derailleur system
          who
          > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same rider?
          > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
          > >
          > > Brandon
          > >
          >
        • Rich Wood
          Brandon; Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM three speed hub which discusses it s ratios and gearing. I found it after a minimal Google
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 10, 2008
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            Brandon;

            Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM three speed
            hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it after a
            minimal Google search.

            http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html

            It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing range
            provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.

            Rich Wood


            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
            <astronut1001@...> wrote:
            >
            > Brandon;
            >
            > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my Rohloff 14
            > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high of
            110".
            > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and a high
            of
            > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not been
            modified
            > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
            >
            > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high gear
            > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use, should be
            > confined to riders in excellent condition with good knees.
            Spinning
            > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the joints and
            leg
            > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
            >
            > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle gear
            inches
            > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should be
            > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so can
            > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which seems to me
            to
            > be more logical.
            >
            > Rich Wood
            >
            >
            > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
            > <astronut1001@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Brandon;
            > >
            > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in first, 1.0
            > in
            > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to high is
            > 177%.
            > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+ years
            > Sturmey
            > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various internal
            > ratios.
            > >
            > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
            chainring
            > and
            > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range. Generally
            > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a high gear
            of
            > 80"
            > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of around 45"
            > which is
            > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing, depending
            on
            > the
            > > rider's condition.
            > >
            > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to 300% for
            a
            > two
            > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and an
            > extreme of
            > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike derailleur
            > system.
            > >
            > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be in the
            > 100" to
            > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the derailleur
            > system
            > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
            > >
            > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and 14 speed
            > gear
            > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
            > comparable to
            > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer 8
            speeds
            > are
            > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM hub has a
            > 340%
            > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%. These are
            > much
            > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have smalller
            > steps
            > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and greater
            overall
            > gear
            > > ranges.
            > >
            > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing steeper hills
            > while
            > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the flat and/or
            > when
            > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
            > >
            > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar ratios. All
            > also
            > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3 speed
            > unit
            > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but there has
            > been
            > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since. By
            modern
            > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for reasonably
            flat
            > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent condition. From
            > an
            > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite marginal and
            > the
            > > jumps between ratios are too great.
            > >
            > > Rich Wood
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
            > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or ratio
            would
            > my
            > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
            > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on a road
            > bike vs
            > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed derailleur system
            > who
            > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same rider?
            > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
            > > >
            > > > Brandon
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • brandon
            Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios because my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced and trued my sturmey
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 10, 2008
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              Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios because
              my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced and
              trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then contacted my
              friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different brand
              and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
              and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!

              which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed mine wasn't
              that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this was a hundred
              meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength riders so i
              rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2 meters.

              my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the front and i
              got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my hub just kept
              going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown what bike it
              came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side of the road.

              Brandon.


              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
              <astronut1001@...> wrote:
              >
              > Brandon;
              >
              > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM three speed
              > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it after a
              > minimal Google search.
              >
              > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
              >
              > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing range
              > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.
              >
              > Rich Wood
              >
              >
              > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
              > <astronut1001@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Brandon;
              > >
              > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my Rohloff 14
              > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high of
              > 110".
              > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and a high
              > of
              > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not been
              > modified
              > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
              > >
              > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high gear
              > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use, should be
              > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good knees.
              > Spinning
              > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the joints and
              > leg
              > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
              > >
              > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle gear
              > inches
              > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should be
              > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so can
              > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which seems to me
              > to
              > > be more logical.
              > >
              > > Rich Wood
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
              > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Brandon;
              > > >
              > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in first, 1.0
              > > in
              > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to high is
              > > 177%.
              > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+ years
              > > Sturmey
              > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various internal
              > > ratios.
              > > >
              > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
              > chainring
              > > and
              > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range. Generally
              > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a high gear
              > of
              > > 80"
              > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of around 45"
              > > which is
              > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing, depending
              > on
              > > the
              > > > rider's condition.
              > > >
              > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to 300% for
              > a
              > > two
              > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and an
              > > extreme of
              > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike derailleur
              > > system.
              > > >
              > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be in the
              > > 100" to
              > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the derailleur
              > > system
              > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
              > > >
              > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and 14 speed
              > > gear
              > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
              > > comparable to
              > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer 8
              > speeds
              > > are
              > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM hub has a
              > > 340%
              > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%. These are
              > > much
              > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have smalller
              > > steps
              > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and greater
              > overall
              > > gear
              > > > ranges.
              > > >
              > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing steeper hills
              > > while
              > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the flat and/or
              > > when
              > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
              > > >
              > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar ratios. All
              > > also
              > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3 speed
              > > unit
              > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but there has
              > > been
              > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since. By
              > modern
              > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for reasonably
              > flat
              > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent condition. From
              > > an
              > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite marginal and
              > > the
              > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
              > > >
              > > > Rich Wood
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
              > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or ratio
              > would
              > > my
              > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
              > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on a road
              > > bike vs
              > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed derailleur system
              > > who
              > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same rider?
              > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
              > > > >
              > > > > Brandon
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Rich Wood
              Brandon; Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare Sturmey Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost all British road
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 10, 2008
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                Brandon;

                Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare Sturmey
                Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost all
                British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                such use with it's narrow range of gearing.

                At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
                Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
                understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a kiwi
                who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
                description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it sound
                like it was pretty bad by current standards.

                The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs and
                freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
                enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
                freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided immensely in
                shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
                european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-Maillard,
                out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem to be
                the ony european derailleur suppliers left.

                Rich Wood


                --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios
                because
                > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced and
                > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then contacted
                my
                > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different brand
                > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
                > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
                >
                > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed mine
                wasn't
                > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this was a
                hundred
                > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength riders so i
                > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2 meters.
                >
                > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the front
                and i
                > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my hub just
                kept
                > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown what bike
                it
                > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side of the
                road.
                >
                > Brandon.
                >
                >
                > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Brandon;
                > >
                > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM three
                speed
                > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it after a
                > > minimal Google search.
                > >
                > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
                > >
                > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing range
                > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.
                > >
                > > Rich Wood
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Brandon;
                > > >
                > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
                Rohloff 14
                > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high of
                > > 110".
                > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and a
                high
                > > of
                > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not been
                > > modified
                > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
                > > >
                > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high
                gear
                > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use, should
                be
                > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good knees.
                > > Spinning
                > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the joints
                and
                > > leg
                > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
                > > >
                > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle gear
                > > inches
                > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should be
                > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so can
                > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which seems to
                me
                > > to
                > > > be more logical.
                > > >
                > > > Rich Wood
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Brandon;
                > > > >
                > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in first,
                1.0
                > > > in
                > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to high is
                > > > 177%.
                > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+ years
                > > > Sturmey
                > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
                internal
                > > > ratios.
                > > > >
                > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
                > > chainring
                > > > and
                > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
                Generally
                > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a high
                gear
                > > of
                > > > 80"
                > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of around
                45"
                > > > which is
                > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
                depending
                > > on
                > > > the
                > > > > rider's condition.
                > > > >
                > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to 300%
                for
                > > a
                > > > two
                > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and an
                > > > extreme of
                > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike derailleur
                > > > system.
                > > > >
                > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be in
                the
                > > > 100" to
                > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
                derailleur
                > > > system
                > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
                > > > >
                > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and 14
                speed
                > > > gear
                > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
                > > > comparable to
                > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer 8
                > > speeds
                > > > are
                > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM hub
                has a
                > > > 340%
                > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%. These
                are
                > > > much
                > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
                smalller
                > > > steps
                > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and greater
                > > overall
                > > > gear
                > > > > ranges.
                > > > >
                > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing steeper
                hills
                > > > while
                > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the flat
                and/or
                > > > when
                > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
                > > > >
                > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar ratios.
                All
                > > > also
                > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3
                speed
                > > > unit
                > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but there
                has
                > > > been
                > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since. By
                > > modern
                > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
                reasonably
                > > flat
                > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent condition.
                From
                > > > an
                > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite marginal
                and
                > > > the
                > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
                > > > >
                > > > > Rich Wood
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or ratio
                > > would
                > > > my
                > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
                > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on a
                road
                > > > bike vs
                > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed derailleur
                system
                > > > who
                > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same rider?
                > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Brandon
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • brandon
                So Rich my hub is rare that s pretty good, thanks for that. so its a close ratio hub that s alright considering i got it of some old rim. Are you American?, if
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 11, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so its a
                  close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old rim.
                  Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there because
                  Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up til the
                  1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
                  Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs when
                  there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?

                  I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into production
                  and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France that
                  would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to derailleurs!

                  Brandon.


                  --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                  <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Brandon;
                  >
                  > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare Sturmey
                  > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost all
                  > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                  > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                  > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
                  >
                  > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
                  > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
                  > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a kiwi
                  > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
                  > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it sound
                  > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
                  >
                  > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs and
                  > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
                  > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
                  > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided immensely in
                  > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
                  > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-Maillard,
                  > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem to be
                  > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
                  >
                  > Rich Wood
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                  > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios
                  > because
                  > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced and
                  > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then contacted
                  > my
                  > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different brand
                  > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
                  > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
                  > >
                  > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed mine
                  > wasn't
                  > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this was a
                  > hundred
                  > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength riders so i
                  > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2 meters.
                  > >
                  > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the front
                  > and i
                  > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my hub just
                  > kept
                  > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown what bike
                  > it
                  > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side of the
                  > road.
                  > >
                  > > Brandon.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                  > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Brandon;
                  > > >
                  > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM three
                  > speed
                  > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it after a
                  > > > minimal Google search.
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
                  > > >
                  > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing range
                  > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.
                  > > >
                  > > > Rich Wood
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                  > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Brandon;
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
                  > Rohloff 14
                  > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high of
                  > > > 110".
                  > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and a
                  > high
                  > > > of
                  > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not been
                  > > > modified
                  > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high
                  > gear
                  > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use, should
                  > be
                  > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good knees.
                  > > > Spinning
                  > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the joints
                  > and
                  > > > leg
                  > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle gear
                  > > > inches
                  > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should be
                  > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so can
                  > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which seems to
                  > me
                  > > > to
                  > > > > be more logical.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Rich Wood
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                  > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Brandon;
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in first,
                  > 1.0
                  > > > > in
                  > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to high is
                  > > > > 177%.
                  > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+ years
                  > > > > Sturmey
                  > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
                  > internal
                  > > > > ratios.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
                  > > > chainring
                  > > > > and
                  > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
                  > Generally
                  > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a high
                  > gear
                  > > > of
                  > > > > 80"
                  > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of around
                  > 45"
                  > > > > which is
                  > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
                  > depending
                  > > > on
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > rider's condition.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to 300%
                  > for
                  > > > a
                  > > > > two
                  > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and an
                  > > > > extreme of
                  > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike derailleur
                  > > > > system.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be in
                  > the
                  > > > > 100" to
                  > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
                  > derailleur
                  > > > > system
                  > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and 14
                  > speed
                  > > > > gear
                  > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
                  > > > > comparable to
                  > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer 8
                  > > > speeds
                  > > > > are
                  > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM hub
                  > has a
                  > > > > 340%
                  > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%. These
                  > are
                  > > > > much
                  > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
                  > smalller
                  > > > > steps
                  > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and greater
                  > > > overall
                  > > > > gear
                  > > > > > ranges.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing steeper
                  > hills
                  > > > > while
                  > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the flat
                  > and/or
                  > > > > when
                  > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar ratios.
                  > All
                  > > > > also
                  > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3
                  > speed
                  > > > > unit
                  > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but there
                  > has
                  > > > > been
                  > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since. By
                  > > > modern
                  > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
                  > reasonably
                  > > > flat
                  > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent condition.
                  > From
                  > > > > an
                  > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite marginal
                  > and
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Rich Wood
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                  > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or ratio
                  > > > would
                  > > > > my
                  > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
                  > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on a
                  > road
                  > > > > bike vs
                  > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed derailleur
                  > system
                  > > > > who
                  > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same rider?
                  > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Brandon
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Rich Wood
                  Brandon; I am American and live in Reno, Nevada. SA does do an 8 speed hub though the gear range is wierd compared to Shimano, SRAM and Rohloff gear hubs.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 11, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Brandon;

                    I am American and live in Reno, Nevada.

                    SA does do an 8 speed hub though the gear range is wierd compared to
                    Shimano, SRAM and Rohloff gear hubs.

                    Derailleur gear trains are still lighter than the best high gear
                    count hubs, particularly the top end derailleur gear trains using
                    lots of carbon fiber and titanium in addition to aluminum. Remember
                    that in a Tour bike price is not a consideration and they have
                    really top mechanics going over each bike with a microscope on a
                    daily basis.

                    IMO the strengths of a gear hub, properly designed and made, are
                    long term dependability and much less susceptiblity to the effects
                    of mud, dust and bad weather. Also once initial cable stretch is
                    out of the shifter cable they hold adjustment longer than
                    derailleurs.

                    Per the book Bicycling Science, and test figures on the Rohloff web
                    site, the derailleur gear train is very slightly more efficient.
                    This does vary however with the derailleur sprocket selection being
                    used.

                    A rear derailleur is very subject to damage from a fall or other
                    impact from riding in rocky areas such as mountain bikers do
                    routinely. The latest gear hubs from SRAM, Shimano and Rohloff do
                    not have parts which protrude like a derailleur gear train does.
                    This makes them much less susceptible to damage in my opinion.

                    Thorn Bicycles in England makes some really high end adventure and
                    touring bikes. Their designer is a strong proponent of the Rohloff
                    hub. He has used it for rough road touring in Australia, Tasmania
                    and in South America. Rides have included multiple trips over the
                    Andes on dirt and gravel roads to altitudes close to 15,000 feet
                    with no problems from the Rohloff hub. It seems to be virtually
                    unbreakable. To me this is an area of use where a gear hub shines.

                    Also better than derailleur gear trains for use in city riding and
                    traffic due to the faster shifting and the ability to shift while
                    stopped at traffic lights or other stops. Just more user friendly
                    overall in this environment.

                    Rich Wood


                    --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                    <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so its
                    a
                    > close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old
                    rim.
                    > Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there
                    because
                    > Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up til
                    the
                    > 1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
                    > Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs when
                    > there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?
                    >
                    > I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into
                    production
                    > and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France that
                    > would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to derailleurs!
                    >
                    > Brandon.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                    > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Brandon;
                    > >
                    > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
                    Sturmey
                    > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost
                    all
                    > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                    > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                    > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
                    > >
                    > > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
                    > > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
                    > > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a
                    kiwi
                    > > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
                    > > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it
                    sound
                    > > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
                    > >
                    > > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs
                    and
                    > > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
                    > > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
                    > > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided immensely
                    in
                    > > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
                    > > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-
                    Maillard,
                    > > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem to
                    be
                    > > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
                    > >
                    > > Rich Wood
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                    > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios
                    > > because
                    > > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced
                    and
                    > > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then
                    contacted
                    > > my
                    > > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different brand
                    > > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
                    > > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
                    > > >
                    > > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed mine
                    > > wasn't
                    > > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this was a
                    > > hundred
                    > > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength riders
                    so i
                    > > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2 meters.
                    > > >
                    > > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the
                    front
                    > > and i
                    > > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my hub
                    just
                    > > kept
                    > > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown what
                    bike
                    > > it
                    > > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side of
                    the
                    > > road.
                    > > >
                    > > > Brandon.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                    > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Brandon;
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM
                    three
                    > > speed
                    > > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it
                    after a
                    > > > > minimal Google search.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing
                    range
                    > > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Rich Wood
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                    > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Brandon;
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
                    > > Rohloff 14
                    > > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high
                    of
                    > > > > 110".
                    > > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and
                    a
                    > > high
                    > > > > of
                    > > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not
                    been
                    > > > > modified
                    > > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high
                    > > gear
                    > > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use,
                    should
                    > > be
                    > > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good
                    knees.
                    > > > > Spinning
                    > > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the
                    joints
                    > > and
                    > > > > leg
                    > > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle
                    gear
                    > > > > inches
                    > > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should
                    be
                    > > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so
                    can
                    > > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which
                    seems to
                    > > me
                    > > > > to
                    > > > > > be more logical.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Rich Wood
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                    > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Brandon;
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in
                    first,
                    > > 1.0
                    > > > > > in
                    > > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to
                    high is
                    > > > > > 177%.
                    > > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+
                    years
                    > > > > > Sturmey
                    > > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
                    > > internal
                    > > > > > ratios.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
                    > > > > chainring
                    > > > > > and
                    > > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
                    > > Generally
                    > > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a
                    high
                    > > gear
                    > > > > of
                    > > > > > 80"
                    > > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of
                    around
                    > > 45"
                    > > > > > which is
                    > > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
                    > > depending
                    > > > > on
                    > > > > > the
                    > > > > > > rider's condition.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to
                    300%
                    > > for
                    > > > > a
                    > > > > > two
                    > > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and
                    an
                    > > > > > extreme of
                    > > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike
                    derailleur
                    > > > > > system.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be
                    in
                    > > the
                    > > > > > 100" to
                    > > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
                    > > derailleur
                    > > > > > system
                    > > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and
                    14
                    > > speed
                    > > > > > gear
                    > > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
                    > > > > > comparable to
                    > > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer
                    8
                    > > > > speeds
                    > > > > > are
                    > > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM
                    hub
                    > > has a
                    > > > > > 340%
                    > > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%.
                    These
                    > > are
                    > > > > > much
                    > > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
                    > > smalller
                    > > > > > steps
                    > > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and
                    greater
                    > > > > overall
                    > > > > > gear
                    > > > > > > ranges.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing
                    steeper
                    > > hills
                    > > > > > while
                    > > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the
                    flat
                    > > and/or
                    > > > > > when
                    > > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar
                    ratios.
                    > > All
                    > > > > > also
                    > > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3
                    > > speed
                    > > > > > unit
                    > > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but
                    there
                    > > has
                    > > > > > been
                    > > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since.
                    By
                    > > > > modern
                    > > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
                    > > reasonably
                    > > > > flat
                    > > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent
                    condition.
                    > > From
                    > > > > > an
                    > > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite
                    marginal
                    > > and
                    > > > > > the
                    > > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Rich Wood
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                    > > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or
                    ratio
                    > > > > would
                    > > > > > my
                    > > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
                    > > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on
                    a
                    > > road
                    > > > > > bike vs
                    > > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed
                    derailleur
                    > > system
                    > > > > > who
                    > > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same
                    rider?
                    > > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Brandon
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Rich Wood
                    Brandon; Two reasons for derailleur gear trains being more popular. Derailleurs took over when the typical gear hub was the 3 speed unit from SA, Sachs or
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 11, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Brandon;

                      Two reasons for derailleur gear trains being more popular.
                      Derailleurs took over when the typical gear hub was the 3 speed unit
                      from SA, Sachs or Shimano typically fitted to a utility type
                      bicycle. A 10 speed derailleur system could be made for the same or
                      less money and for the sales people, and many customers, 10 speeds
                      sounded sexier han 3. Also racers were using derailleurs.

                      Even now you can get a decent derailleur bike for less money than a
                      high gear count gear hub bike generally speaking. A lot more
                      precision machining and parts in the hub than in a derailleur system.

                      Here in the US currently the gear hub is gaining in popularity,
                      primarily on lower performance commuter and cruiser type bikes.
                      These are typically using Shimano 7 and 8 speed hubs with 3 speeds
                      on the bottom end bikes. Virtually all Anerican brands offer
                      several bikes in this category.

                      One maker ofers a model using the SRAM (originally Sachs) 9 speed
                      hub and one offers a bike with the Rohloff hub.

                      Sturmey Archer is now owned by a Taiwanese company and is no longer
                      common in the US. A few models are imported but distribution seems
                      pretty limited. No longer the first choice of manufacturers looking
                      to offer a gear hub bike.

                      Rich Wood


                      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                      <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so its
                      a
                      > close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old
                      rim.
                      > Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there
                      because
                      > Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up til
                      the
                      > 1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
                      > Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs when
                      > there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?
                      >
                      > I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into
                      production
                      > and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France that
                      > would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to derailleurs!
                      >
                      > Brandon.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                      > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Brandon;
                      > >
                      > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
                      Sturmey
                      > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost
                      all
                      > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                      > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                      > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
                      > >
                      > > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
                      > > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
                      > > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a
                      kiwi
                      > > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
                      > > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it
                      sound
                      > > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
                      > >
                      > > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs
                      and
                      > > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
                      > > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
                      > > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided immensely
                      in
                      > > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
                      > > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-
                      Maillard,
                      > > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem to
                      be
                      > > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
                      > >
                      > > Rich Wood
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                      > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios
                      > > because
                      > > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced
                      and
                      > > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then
                      contacted
                      > > my
                      > > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different brand
                      > > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
                      > > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
                      > > >
                      > > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed mine
                      > > wasn't
                      > > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this was a
                      > > hundred
                      > > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength riders
                      so i
                      > > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2 meters.
                      > > >
                      > > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the
                      front
                      > > and i
                      > > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my hub
                      just
                      > > kept
                      > > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown what
                      bike
                      > > it
                      > > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side of
                      the
                      > > road.
                      > > >
                      > > > Brandon.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                      > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Brandon;
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM
                      three
                      > > speed
                      > > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it
                      after a
                      > > > > minimal Google search.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing
                      range
                      > > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Rich Wood
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                      > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Brandon;
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
                      > > Rohloff 14
                      > > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high
                      of
                      > > > > 110".
                      > > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and
                      a
                      > > high
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not
                      been
                      > > > > modified
                      > > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high
                      > > gear
                      > > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use,
                      should
                      > > be
                      > > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good
                      knees.
                      > > > > Spinning
                      > > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the
                      joints
                      > > and
                      > > > > leg
                      > > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle
                      gear
                      > > > > inches
                      > > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should
                      be
                      > > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so
                      can
                      > > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which
                      seems to
                      > > me
                      > > > > to
                      > > > > > be more logical.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Rich Wood
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                      > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Brandon;
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in
                      first,
                      > > 1.0
                      > > > > > in
                      > > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to
                      high is
                      > > > > > 177%.
                      > > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+
                      years
                      > > > > > Sturmey
                      > > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
                      > > internal
                      > > > > > ratios.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
                      > > > > chainring
                      > > > > > and
                      > > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
                      > > Generally
                      > > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a
                      high
                      > > gear
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > > 80"
                      > > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of
                      around
                      > > 45"
                      > > > > > which is
                      > > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
                      > > depending
                      > > > > on
                      > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > rider's condition.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to
                      300%
                      > > for
                      > > > > a
                      > > > > > two
                      > > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and
                      an
                      > > > > > extreme of
                      > > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike
                      derailleur
                      > > > > > system.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be
                      in
                      > > the
                      > > > > > 100" to
                      > > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
                      > > derailleur
                      > > > > > system
                      > > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and
                      14
                      > > speed
                      > > > > > gear
                      > > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
                      > > > > > comparable to
                      > > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer
                      8
                      > > > > speeds
                      > > > > > are
                      > > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM
                      hub
                      > > has a
                      > > > > > 340%
                      > > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%.
                      These
                      > > are
                      > > > > > much
                      > > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
                      > > smalller
                      > > > > > steps
                      > > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and
                      greater
                      > > > > overall
                      > > > > > gear
                      > > > > > > ranges.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing
                      steeper
                      > > hills
                      > > > > > while
                      > > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the
                      flat
                      > > and/or
                      > > > > > when
                      > > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar
                      ratios.
                      > > All
                      > > > > > also
                      > > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3
                      > > speed
                      > > > > > unit
                      > > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but
                      there
                      > > has
                      > > > > > been
                      > > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since.
                      By
                      > > > > modern
                      > > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
                      > > reasonably
                      > > > > flat
                      > > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent
                      condition.
                      > > From
                      > > > > > an
                      > > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite
                      marginal
                      > > and
                      > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Rich Wood
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                      > > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or
                      ratio
                      > > > > would
                      > > > > > my
                      > > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
                      > > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on
                      a
                      > > road
                      > > > > > bike vs
                      > > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed
                      derailleur
                      > > system
                      > > > > > who
                      > > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same
                      rider?
                      > > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Brandon
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • brandon
                      I couldn t agree more Rich and i live somewhere you haven t heard of so i will say it is near Byron bay and its not outback terrain like most movies show
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 11, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I couldn't agree more Rich and i live somewhere you haven't heard of so i will say it is near Byron bay and its not outback terrain like most movies show Australia its very nice here with the beach close and lots of nice potholed roads .
                        and the weirdest thing is that on the riverbanks are bamboo so figure that out:-/
                        anyway i haven't heard of the rohloff hub before i joined this group can you put a pic of one on a bike i would like to see the setup.

                        Thanks.



                        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood" <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Brandon;
                        >
                        > I am American and live in Reno, Nevada.
                        >
                        > SA does do an 8 speed hub though the gear range is wierd compared to
                        > Shimano, SRAM and Rohloff gear hubs.
                        >
                        > Derailleur gear trains are still lighter than the best high gear
                        > count hubs, particularly the top end derailleur gear trains using
                        > lots of carbon fiber and titanium in addition to aluminum. Remember
                        > that in a Tour bike price is not a consideration and they have
                        > really top mechanics going over each bike with a microscope on a
                        > daily basis.
                        >
                        > IMO the strengths of a gear hub, properly designed and made, are
                        > long term dependability and much less susceptiblity to the effects
                        > of mud, dust and bad weather. Also once initial cable stretch is
                        > out of the shifter cable they hold adjustment longer than
                        > derailleurs.
                        >
                        > Per the book Bicycling Science, and test figures on the Rohloff web
                        > site, the derailleur gear train is very slightly more efficient.
                        > This does vary however with the derailleur sprocket selection being
                        > used.
                        >
                        > A rear derailleur is very subject to damage from a fall or other
                        > impact from riding in rocky areas such as mountain bikers do
                        > routinely. The latest gear hubs from SRAM, Shimano and Rohloff do
                        > not have parts which protrude like a derailleur gear train does.
                        > This makes them much less susceptible to damage in my opinion.
                        >
                        > Thorn Bicycles in England makes some really high end adventure and
                        > touring bikes. Their designer is a strong proponent of the Rohloff
                        > hub. He has used it for rough road touring in Australia, Tasmania
                        > and in South America. Rides have included multiple trips over the
                        > Andes on dirt and gravel roads to altitudes close to 15,000 feet
                        > with no problems from the Rohloff hub. It seems to be virtually
                        > unbreakable. To me this is an area of use where a gear hub shines.
                        >
                        > Also better than derailleur gear trains for use in city riding and
                        > traffic due to the faster shifting and the ability to shift while
                        > stopped at traffic lights or other stops. Just more user friendly
                        > overall in this environment.
                        >
                        > Rich Wood
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                        > rogersbrandon96@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so its
                        > a
                        > > close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old
                        > rim.
                        > > Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there
                        > because
                        > > Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up til
                        > the
                        > > 1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
                        > > Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs when
                        > > there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?
                        > >
                        > > I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into
                        > production
                        > > and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France that
                        > > would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to derailleurs!
                        > >
                        > > Brandon.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                        > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Brandon;
                        > > >
                        > > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
                        > Sturmey
                        > > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost
                        > all
                        > > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                        > > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                        > > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
                        > > >
                        > > > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
                        > > > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
                        > > > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a
                        > kiwi
                        > > > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
                        > > > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it
                        > sound
                        > > > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
                        > > >
                        > > > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs
                        > and
                        > > > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
                        > > > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
                        > > > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided immensely
                        > in
                        > > > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
                        > > > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-
                        > Maillard,
                        > > > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem to
                        > be
                        > > > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
                        > > >
                        > > > Rich Wood
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                        > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear ratios
                        > > > because
                        > > > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i laced
                        > and
                        > > > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then
                        > contacted
                        > > > my
                        > > > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different brand
                        > > > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
                        > > > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed mine
                        > > > wasn't
                        > > > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this was a
                        > > > hundred
                        > > > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength riders
                        > so i
                        > > > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2 meters.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the
                        > front
                        > > > and i
                        > > > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my hub
                        > just
                        > > > kept
                        > > > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown what
                        > bike
                        > > > it
                        > > > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side of
                        > the
                        > > > road.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Brandon.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                        > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Brandon;
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM
                        > three
                        > > > speed
                        > > > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it
                        > after a
                        > > > > > minimal Google search.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing
                        > range
                        > > > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW hub.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Rich Wood
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                        > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Brandon;
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
                        > > > Rohloff 14
                        > > > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a high
                        > of
                        > > > > > 110".
                        > > > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27" and
                        > a
                        > > > high
                        > > > > > of
                        > > > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not
                        > been
                        > > > > > modified
                        > > > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a high
                        > > > gear
                        > > > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use,
                        > should
                        > > > be
                        > > > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good
                        > knees.
                        > > > > > Spinning
                        > > > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the
                        > joints
                        > > > and
                        > > > > > leg
                        > > > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of bicycle
                        > gear
                        > > > > > inches
                        > > > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO should
                        > be
                        > > > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it, and so
                        > can
                        > > > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which
                        > seems to
                        > > > me
                        > > > > > to
                        > > > > > > be more logical.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Rich Wood
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                        > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Brandon;
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in
                        > first,
                        > > > 1.0
                        > > > > > > in
                        > > > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to
                        > high is
                        > > > > > > 177%.
                        > > > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+
                        > years
                        > > > > > > Sturmey
                        > > > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
                        > > > internal
                        > > > > > > ratios.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined by
                        > > > > > chainring
                        > > > > > > and
                        > > > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
                        > > > Generally
                        > > > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a
                        > high
                        > > > gear
                        > > > > > of
                        > > > > > > 80"
                        > > > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of
                        > around
                        > > > 45"
                        > > > > > > which is
                        > > > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
                        > > > depending
                        > > > > > on
                        > > > > > > the
                        > > > > > > > rider's condition.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250% to
                        > 300%
                        > > > for
                        > > > > > a
                        > > > > > > two
                        > > > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%, and
                        > an
                        > > > > > > extreme of
                        > > > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike
                        > derailleur
                        > > > > > > system.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to be
                        > in
                        > > > the
                        > > > > > > 100" to
                        > > > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
                        > > > derailleur
                        > > > > > > system
                        > > > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9 and
                        > 14
                        > > > speed
                        > > > > > > gear
                        > > > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear ranges
                        > > > > > > comparable to
                        > > > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey Archer
                        > 8
                        > > > > > speeds
                        > > > > > > are
                        > > > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed SRAM
                        > hub
                        > > > has a
                        > > > > > > 340%
                        > > > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%.
                        > These
                        > > > are
                        > > > > > > much
                        > > > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
                        > > > smalller
                        > > > > > > steps
                        > > > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and
                        > greater
                        > > > > > overall
                        > > > > > > gear
                        > > > > > > > ranges.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing
                        > steeper
                        > > > hills
                        > > > > > > while
                        > > > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the
                        > flat
                        > > > and/or
                        > > > > > > when
                        > > > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar
                        > ratios.
                        > > > All
                        > > > > > > also
                        > > > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey Archer 3
                        > > > speed
                        > > > > > > unit
                        > > > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but
                        > there
                        > > > has
                        > > > > > > been
                        > > > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs since.
                        > By
                        > > > > > modern
                        > > > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
                        > > > reasonably
                        > > > > > flat
                        > > > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent
                        > condition.
                        > > > From
                        > > > > > > an
                        > > > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite
                        > marginal
                        > > > and
                        > > > > > > the
                        > > > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Rich Wood
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                        > > > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or
                        > ratio
                        > > > > > would
                        > > > > > > my
                        > > > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur system?
                        > > > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub installed on
                        > a
                        > > > road
                        > > > > > > bike vs
                        > > > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed
                        > derailleur
                        > > > system
                        > > > > > > who
                        > > > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same
                        > rider?
                        > > > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > Brandon
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Rich Wood
                        Brandon; I Googled Byron Bay and looked it up in my atlas. Looks like a resort town about 70 Km south of Surfers Paradise. The Google map also shows the
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 12, 2008
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                          Brandon;

                          I Googled Byron Bay and looked it up in my atlas. Looks like a
                          resort town about 70 Km south of Surfers Paradise. The Google map
                          also shows the surrounding towns. Which is yours? There is also a
                          Wikipedia entry for Byron Bay I read. Sounds like a nice area.

                          Rich Wood


                          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                          <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I couldn't agree more Rich and i live somewhere you haven't heard
                          of so
                          > i will say it is near Byron bay and its not outback terrain like
                          most
                          > movies show Australia its very nice here with the beach close and
                          lots
                          > of nice potholed roads .
                          > and the weirdest thing is that on the riverbanks are bamboo so
                          figure
                          > that out [:-/]
                          > anyway i haven't heard of the rohloff hub before i joined this
                          group can
                          > you put a pic of one on a bike i would like to see the setup.
                          >
                          > Thanks.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                          <astronut1001@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Brandon;
                          > >
                          > > I am American and live in Reno, Nevada.
                          > >
                          > > SA does do an 8 speed hub though the gear range is wierd
                          compared to
                          > > Shimano, SRAM and Rohloff gear hubs.
                          > >
                          > > Derailleur gear trains are still lighter than the best high gear
                          > > count hubs, particularly the top end derailleur gear trains using
                          > > lots of carbon fiber and titanium in addition to aluminum.
                          Remember
                          > > that in a Tour bike price is not a consideration and they have
                          > > really top mechanics going over each bike with a microscope on a
                          > > daily basis.
                          > >
                          > > IMO the strengths of a gear hub, properly designed and made, are
                          > > long term dependability and much less susceptiblity to the
                          effects
                          > > of mud, dust and bad weather. Also once initial cable stretch is
                          > > out of the shifter cable they hold adjustment longer than
                          > > derailleurs.
                          > >
                          > > Per the book Bicycling Science, and test figures on the Rohloff
                          web
                          > > site, the derailleur gear train is very slightly more efficient.
                          > > This does vary however with the derailleur sprocket selection
                          being
                          > > used.
                          > >
                          > > A rear derailleur is very subject to damage from a fall or other
                          > > impact from riding in rocky areas such as mountain bikers do
                          > > routinely. The latest gear hubs from SRAM, Shimano and Rohloff
                          do
                          > > not have parts which protrude like a derailleur gear train does.
                          > > This makes them much less susceptible to damage in my opinion.
                          > >
                          > > Thorn Bicycles in England makes some really high end adventure
                          and
                          > > touring bikes. Their designer is a strong proponent of the
                          Rohloff
                          > > hub. He has used it for rough road touring in Australia,
                          Tasmania
                          > > and in South America. Rides have included multiple trips over
                          the
                          > > Andes on dirt and gravel roads to altitudes close to 15,000 feet
                          > > with no problems from the Rohloff hub. It seems to be virtually
                          > > unbreakable. To me this is an area of use where a gear hub
                          shines.
                          > >
                          > > Also better than derailleur gear trains for use in city riding
                          and
                          > > traffic due to the faster shifting and the ability to shift while
                          > > stopped at traffic lights or other stops. Just more user
                          friendly
                          > > overall in this environment.
                          > >
                          > > Rich Wood
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                          > > rogersbrandon96@ wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so
                          its
                          > > a
                          > > > close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old
                          > > rim.
                          > > > Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there
                          > > because
                          > > > Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up
                          til
                          > > the
                          > > > 1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
                          > > > Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs
                          when
                          > > > there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?
                          > > >
                          > > > I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into
                          > > production
                          > > > and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France
                          that
                          > > > would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to
                          derailleurs!
                          > > >
                          > > > Brandon.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                          > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Brandon;
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
                          > > Sturmey
                          > > > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use.
                          Almost
                          > > all
                          > > > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                          > > > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for
                          just
                          > > > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
                          > > > > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
                          > > > > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a
                          > > kiwi
                          > > > > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
                          > > > > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it
                          > > sound
                          > > > > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs
                          > > and
                          > > > > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
                          > > > > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
                          > > > > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided
                          immensely
                          > > in
                          > > > > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
                          > > > > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-
                          > > Maillard,
                          > > > > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem
                          to
                          > > be
                          > > > > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Rich Wood
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                          > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear
                          ratios
                          > > > > because
                          > > > > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i
                          laced
                          > > and
                          > > > > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then
                          > > contacted
                          > > > > my
                          > > > > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different
                          brand
                          > > > > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
                          > > > > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed
                          mine
                          > > > > wasn't
                          > > > > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this
                          was a
                          > > > > hundred
                          > > > > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength
                          riders
                          > > so i
                          > > > > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2
                          meters.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the
                          > > front
                          > > > > and i
                          > > > > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my
                          hub
                          > > just
                          > > > > kept
                          > > > > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown
                          what
                          > > bike
                          > > > > it
                          > > > > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side
                          of
                          > > the
                          > > > > road.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Brandon.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                          > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Brandon;
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM
                          > > three
                          > > > > speed
                          > > > > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it
                          > > after a
                          > > > > > > minimal Google search.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing
                          > > range
                          > > > > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW
                          hub.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Rich Wood
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                          > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Brandon;
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
                          > > > > Rohloff 14
                          > > > > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a
                          high
                          > > of
                          > > > > > > 110".
                          > > > > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27"
                          and
                          > > a
                          > > > > high
                          > > > > > > of
                          > > > > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not
                          > > been
                          > > > > > > modified
                          > > > > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a
                          high
                          > > > > gear
                          > > > > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use,
                          > > should
                          > > > > be
                          > > > > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good
                          > > knees.
                          > > > > > > Spinning
                          > > > > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the
                          > > joints
                          > > > > and
                          > > > > > > leg
                          > > > > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of
                          bicycle
                          > > gear
                          > > > > > > inches
                          > > > > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO
                          should
                          > > be
                          > > > > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it,
                          and so
                          > > can
                          > > > > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which
                          > > seems to
                          > > > > me
                          > > > > > > to
                          > > > > > > > be more logical.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Rich Wood
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                          > > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Brandon;
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in
                          > > first,
                          > > > > 1.0
                          > > > > > > > in
                          > > > > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to
                          > > high is
                          > > > > > > > 177%.
                          > > > > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+
                          > > years
                          > > > > > > > Sturmey
                          > > > > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
                          > > > > internal
                          > > > > > > > ratios.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined
                          by
                          > > > > > > chainring
                          > > > > > > > and
                          > > > > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
                          > > > > Generally
                          > > > > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a
                          > > high
                          > > > > gear
                          > > > > > > of
                          > > > > > > > 80"
                          > > > > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of
                          > > around
                          > > > > 45"
                          > > > > > > > which is
                          > > > > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
                          > > > > depending
                          > > > > > > on
                          > > > > > > > the
                          > > > > > > > > rider's condition.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250%
                          to
                          > > 300%
                          > > > > for
                          > > > > > > a
                          > > > > > > > two
                          > > > > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%,
                          and
                          > > an
                          > > > > > > > extreme of
                          > > > > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike
                          > > derailleur
                          > > > > > > > system.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to
                          be
                          > > in
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > > > 100" to
                          > > > > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
                          > > > > derailleur
                          > > > > > > > system
                          > > > > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9
                          and
                          > > 14
                          > > > > speed
                          > > > > > > > gear
                          > > > > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear
                          ranges
                          > > > > > > > comparable to
                          > > > > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey
                          Archer
                          > > 8
                          > > > > > > speeds
                          > > > > > > > are
                          > > > > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed
                          SRAM
                          > > hub
                          > > > > has a
                          > > > > > > > 340%
                          > > > > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%.
                          > > These
                          > > > > are
                          > > > > > > > much
                          > > > > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
                          > > > > smalller
                          > > > > > > > steps
                          > > > > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and
                          > > greater
                          > > > > > > overall
                          > > > > > > > gear
                          > > > > > > > > ranges.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing
                          > > steeper
                          > > > > hills
                          > > > > > > > while
                          > > > > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the
                          > > flat
                          > > > > and/or
                          > > > > > > > when
                          > > > > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar
                          > > ratios.
                          > > > > All
                          > > > > > > > also
                          > > > > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey
                          Archer 3
                          > > > > speed
                          > > > > > > > unit
                          > > > > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but
                          > > there
                          > > > > has
                          > > > > > > > been
                          > > > > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs
                          since.
                          > > By
                          > > > > > > modern
                          > > > > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
                          > > > > reasonably
                          > > > > > > flat
                          > > > > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent
                          > > condition.
                          > > > > From
                          > > > > > > > an
                          > > > > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite
                          > > marginal
                          > > > > and
                          > > > > > > > the
                          > > > > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Rich Wood
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                          > > > > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or
                          > > ratio
                          > > > > > > would
                          > > > > > > > my
                          > > > > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur
                          system?
                          > > > > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub
                          installed on
                          > > a
                          > > > > road
                          > > > > > > > bike vs
                          > > > > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed
                          > > derailleur
                          > > > > system
                          > > > > > > > who
                          > > > > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same
                          > > rider?
                          > > > > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > Brandon
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • brandon
                          My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn t know they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs. The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 12, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn't know
                            they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs.

                            The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you like it a very
                            amazing bit of machinery i wouldn't mind one myself.

                            My hub didn't have wing nuts when i got it because it didn't have any
                            nuts on it so it could have had wing nuts it is made in England and is
                            genuine.

                            I have a couple of sturmey archers i will put one on here have a look
                            in my Sturmey archer folder.

                            Surfers paradise is a great place to ride i can drive there on the
                            pacific highway and it takes about 1 hour but ballina is one very nice
                            place to ride with plenty of bike paths and is flat and best of all it
                            is next to the beach.

                            i also collect vintage bicycles i have a 1969 SA S5 hub with two
                            cables one one side is the classic indicator chain and on the left
                            side is a shimano type push rod changer it pushes a thin rod into the
                            hub to change gears i have completely rebuilt it and it is a extremely
                            good hub.

                            Brandon.


                            --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                            <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Brandon;
                            >
                            > I Googled Byron Bay and looked it up in my atlas. Looks like a
                            > resort town about 70 Km south of Surfers Paradise. The Google map
                            > also shows the surrounding towns. Which is yours? There is also a
                            > Wikipedia entry for Byron Bay I read. Sounds like a nice area.
                            >
                            > Rich Wood
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                            > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I couldn't agree more Rich and i live somewhere you haven't heard
                            > of so
                            > > i will say it is near Byron bay and its not outback terrain like
                            > most
                            > > movies show Australia its very nice here with the beach close and
                            > lots
                            > > of nice potholed roads .
                            > > and the weirdest thing is that on the riverbanks are bamboo so
                            > figure
                            > > that out [:-/]
                            > > anyway i haven't heard of the rohloff hub before i joined this
                            > group can
                            > > you put a pic of one on a bike i would like to see the setup.
                            > >
                            > > Thanks.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                            > <astronut1001@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Brandon;
                            > > >
                            > > > I am American and live in Reno, Nevada.
                            > > >
                            > > > SA does do an 8 speed hub though the gear range is wierd
                            > compared to
                            > > > Shimano, SRAM and Rohloff gear hubs.
                            > > >
                            > > > Derailleur gear trains are still lighter than the best high gear
                            > > > count hubs, particularly the top end derailleur gear trains using
                            > > > lots of carbon fiber and titanium in addition to aluminum.
                            > Remember
                            > > > that in a Tour bike price is not a consideration and they have
                            > > > really top mechanics going over each bike with a microscope on a
                            > > > daily basis.
                            > > >
                            > > > IMO the strengths of a gear hub, properly designed and made, are
                            > > > long term dependability and much less susceptiblity to the
                            > effects
                            > > > of mud, dust and bad weather. Also once initial cable stretch is
                            > > > out of the shifter cable they hold adjustment longer than
                            > > > derailleurs.
                            > > >
                            > > > Per the book Bicycling Science, and test figures on the Rohloff
                            > web
                            > > > site, the derailleur gear train is very slightly more efficient.
                            > > > This does vary however with the derailleur sprocket selection
                            > being
                            > > > used.
                            > > >
                            > > > A rear derailleur is very subject to damage from a fall or other
                            > > > impact from riding in rocky areas such as mountain bikers do
                            > > > routinely. The latest gear hubs from SRAM, Shimano and Rohloff
                            > do
                            > > > not have parts which protrude like a derailleur gear train does.
                            > > > This makes them much less susceptible to damage in my opinion.
                            > > >
                            > > > Thorn Bicycles in England makes some really high end adventure
                            > and
                            > > > touring bikes. Their designer is a strong proponent of the
                            > Rohloff
                            > > > hub. He has used it for rough road touring in Australia,
                            > Tasmania
                            > > > and in South America. Rides have included multiple trips over
                            > the
                            > > > Andes on dirt and gravel roads to altitudes close to 15,000 feet
                            > > > with no problems from the Rohloff hub. It seems to be virtually
                            > > > unbreakable. To me this is an area of use where a gear hub
                            > shines.
                            > > >
                            > > > Also better than derailleur gear trains for use in city riding
                            > and
                            > > > traffic due to the faster shifting and the ability to shift while
                            > > > stopped at traffic lights or other stops. Just more user
                            > friendly
                            > > > overall in this environment.
                            > > >
                            > > > Rich Wood
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                            > > > rogersbrandon96@ wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > So Rich my hub is rare that's pretty good, thanks for that. so
                            > its
                            > > > a
                            > > > > close ratio hub that's alright considering i got it of some old
                            > > > rim.
                            > > > > Are you American?, if so is sturmey archer popular over there
                            > > > because
                            > > > > Australian bikes eg: malvern stars were made with SA hubs up
                            > til
                            > > > the
                            > > > > 1990s and rare Bmx bikes have them too.
                            > > > > Do you have any more info of why they swapped to derailleurs
                            > when
                            > > > > there is so much more potential in inner geared hubs?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I would love to see a SA 10 speed inner geared hub put into
                            > > > production
                            > > > > and put on a brand new road bike used for the tour De France
                            > that
                            > > > > would prove how superior the inner geared hub is to
                            > derailleurs!
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Brandon.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                            > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Brandon;
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
                            > > > Sturmey
                            > > > > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use.
                            > Almost
                            > > > all
                            > > > > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                            > > > > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for
                            > just
                            > > > > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > At the time derailleur gearing was not popular in Britain.
                            > > > > > Considering the derailleurs available at the time quite
                            > > > > > understandable IMO. When I lived in Pleasanton, CA I knew a
                            > > > kiwi
                            > > > > > who had ridden the tour in the late 50s or early 60s. His
                            > > > > > description of the derailleur equipment of the time made it
                            > > > sound
                            > > > > > like it was pretty bad by current standards.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > The Suntour and Shimano development of wide range derailleurs
                            > > > and
                            > > > > > freewheels in the early period of mountain bike popularity
                            > > > > > enormously increased their capabilities. They also developed
                            > > > > > freewheel tooth forms and chain sideplates which aided
                            > immensely
                            > > > in
                            > > > > > shifting performance. They ended up putting the whole of the
                            > > > > > european derailleur manufacturers, except Campy and Sachs-
                            > > > Maillard,
                            > > > > > out of business. Sachs is now SRAM and they and Campy seem
                            > to
                            > > > be
                            > > > > > the ony european derailleur suppliers left.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Rich Wood
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                            > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Thanks Rich i was just curious to know about these gear
                            > ratios
                            > > > > > because
                            > > > > > > my lightweight road bike was becoming a bit boring so i
                            > laced
                            > > > and
                            > > > > > > trued my sturmey archer 1950s hub into the rim and then
                            > > > contacted
                            > > > > > my
                            > > > > > > friend who owns the same kind of bike just a different
                            > brand
                            > > > > > > and sorted out a place to meet for a race (on a flat)
                            > > > > > > and we both went flat out but i won by about 2 meters!
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > which really surprised me after riding his bike i noticed
                            > mine
                            > > > > > wasn't
                            > > > > > > that smooth in gear ratios but provided high speed this
                            > was a
                            > > > > > hundred
                            > > > > > > meter race, my friend and me are both the same strength
                            > riders
                            > > > so i
                            > > > > > > rode his and he rode mine still my bike won by about 2
                            > meters.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > my friends bike was in 8th gear at the rear and 3rd at the
                            > > > front
                            > > > > > and i
                            > > > > > > got to a point that it wouldn't go any faster whereas my
                            > hub
                            > > > just
                            > > > > > kept
                            > > > > > > going faster i live in Australia and the hub is unknown
                            > what
                            > > > bike
                            > > > > > it
                            > > > > > > came of i just found it on this bent up wheel on the side
                            > of
                            > > > the
                            > > > > > road.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Brandon.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                            > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Brandon;
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Here is a link to a article about the Sturmey Archer AM
                            > > > three
                            > > > > > speed
                            > > > > > > > hub which discusses it's ratios and gearing. I found it
                            > > > after a
                            > > > > > > > minimal Google search.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/cyqlist/saam.html
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > It appears that this is a close ratio hub so the gearing
                            > > > range
                            > > > > > > > provided is narrower than with the much more common AW
                            > hub.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Rich Wood
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                            > > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Brandon;
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > I would note for comparison purposes on gearing that my
                            > > > > > Rohloff 14
                            > > > > > > > > speed hub Civia Highland has a low gear of 21" and a
                            > high
                            > > > of
                            > > > > > > > 110".
                            > > > > > > > > My Swobo Dixon with 9 speed SRAM hub has a low of 27"
                            > and
                            > > > a
                            > > > > > high
                            > > > > > > > of
                            > > > > > > > > about 94". Both are as delivered figures and have not
                            > > > been
                            > > > > > > > modified
                            > > > > > > > > by changing chain rings or sprockets.
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Too high a high gear is rough on the knees. Use of a
                            > high
                            > > > > > gear
                            > > > > > > > > higher than 100", except for downhill or tailwind use,
                            > > > should
                            > > > > > be
                            > > > > > > > > confined to riders in excellent condition with good
                            > > > knees.
                            > > > > > > > Spinning
                            > > > > > > > > a lower gear at higher cadence is much easier on the
                            > > > joints
                            > > > > > and
                            > > > > > > > leg
                            > > > > > > > > muscles than straining in a higher gear.
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > If you would like a discussion of the meaning of
                            > bicycle
                            > > > gear
                            > > > > > > > inches
                            > > > > > > > > just say so. It is an antiquated system which IMO
                            > should
                            > > > be
                            > > > > > > > > replaced but many American cyclists are used to it,
                            > and so
                            > > > can
                            > > > > > > > > relate to it. Europeans use a different system which
                            > > > seems to
                            > > > > > me
                            > > > > > > > to
                            > > > > > > > > be more logical.
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Rich Wood
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                            > > > > > > > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > Brandon;
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > The Sturmey Archer 3 speed has ratios of about .75 in
                            > > > first,
                            > > > > > 1.0
                            > > > > > > > > in
                            > > > > > > > > > second and 1.33 in third. Overall range from low to
                            > > > high is
                            > > > > > > > > 177%.
                            > > > > > > > > > This is for the standard AW version. Over their 100+
                            > > > years
                            > > > > > > > > Sturmey
                            > > > > > > > > > Archer made many 3 speed hub varuations with various
                            > > > > > internal
                            > > > > > > > > ratios.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > Overall drive ratio in each gear is still determined
                            > by
                            > > > > > > > chainring
                            > > > > > > > > and
                            > > > > > > > > > sprocket sizes and can be varied over a wide range.
                            > > > > > Generally
                            > > > > > > > > > speaking three speed hub gearing is chosen to give a
                            > > > high
                            > > > > > gear
                            > > > > > > > of
                            > > > > > > > > 80"
                            > > > > > > > > > to 85" in third or high gear. This gives a low of
                            > > > around
                            > > > > > 45"
                            > > > > > > > > which is
                            > > > > > > > > > low enough to allow moderate to medium hill climbing,
                            > > > > > depending
                            > > > > > > > on
                            > > > > > > > > the
                            > > > > > > > > > rider's condition.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > Current derailleur systems have ranges of about 250%
                            > to
                            > > > 300%
                            > > > > > for
                            > > > > > > > a
                            > > > > > > > > two
                            > > > > > > > > > chain ring road system and up to approximately 525%,
                            > and
                            > > > an
                            > > > > > > > > extreme of
                            > > > > > > > > > 600%, for a 3 chain ring wide ratio mountain bike
                            > > > derailleur
                            > > > > > > > > system.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > The high gear on these systems is commonly chosen to
                            > be
                            > > > in
                            > > > > > the
                            > > > > > > > > 100" to
                            > > > > > > > > > 120" range. Thus for the same pedalling cadence the
                            > > > > > derailleur
                            > > > > > > > > system
                            > > > > > > > > > in high gear will provide greater speed.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > One reason for the popularity of the newer 7, 8, 9
                            > and
                            > > > 14
                            > > > > > speed
                            > > > > > > > > gear
                            > > > > > > > > > hub systems is the fact that they have total gear
                            > ranges
                            > > > > > > > > comparable to
                            > > > > > > > > > many derailleur systems. The Shimano and Sturmey
                            > Archer
                            > > > 8
                            > > > > > > > speeds
                            > > > > > > > > are
                            > > > > > > > > > in the 300% overall ratio range while the 9 speed
                            > SRAM
                            > > > hub
                            > > > > > has a
                            > > > > > > > > 340%
                            > > > > > > > > > range and the 14 speed Rohloff has a range of 526%.
                            > > > These
                            > > > > > are
                            > > > > > > > > much
                            > > > > > > > > > more competitive with derailleur systems. They have
                            > > > > > smalller
                            > > > > > > > > steps
                            > > > > > > > > > between gears than the 3 speed Sturmey Archer and
                            > > > greater
                            > > > > > > > overall
                            > > > > > > > > gear
                            > > > > > > > > > ranges.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > These units allow a lower low for easily climbing
                            > > > steeper
                            > > > > > hills
                            > > > > > > > > while
                            > > > > > > > > > also allowing a higher high for greater speed on the
                            > > > flat
                            > > > > > and/or
                            > > > > > > > > when
                            > > > > > > > > > pedalling down hill or with a tailwind.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > All 3 speed gear hubs currently made have similar
                            > > > ratios.
                            > > > > > All
                            > > > > > > > > also
                            > > > > > > > > > are basically derived from the original Sturmey
                            > Archer 3
                            > > > > > speed
                            > > > > > > > > unit
                            > > > > > > > > > introduced in 1902. It was state of the art then but
                            > > > there
                            > > > > > has
                            > > > > > > > > been
                            > > > > > > > > > major progress in both gear hubs and derailleurs
                            > since.
                            > > > By
                            > > > > > > > modern
                            > > > > > > > > > standards the 3 speed is considered to be good for
                            > > > > > reasonably
                            > > > > > > > flat
                            > > > > > > > > > terrain riding unless the rider is in excellent
                            > > > condition.
                            > > > > > From
                            > > > > > > > > an
                            > > > > > > > > > ergonomics standpoint the range is considered quite
                            > > > marginal
                            > > > > > and
                            > > > > > > > > the
                            > > > > > > > > > jumps between ratios are too great.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > Rich Wood
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                            > > > > > > > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > If i had my sturmey archer in 3rd gear what gear or
                            > > > ratio
                            > > > > > > > would
                            > > > > > > > > my
                            > > > > > > > > > > sturmey archer be if compared to a derailleur
                            > system?
                            > > > > > > > > > > And would a sturmey archer 3 speed AM hub
                            > installed on
                            > > > a
                            > > > > > road
                            > > > > > > > > bike vs
                            > > > > > > > > > > a the same type of road bike with a 24 speed
                            > > > derailleur
                            > > > > > system
                            > > > > > > > > who
                            > > > > > > > > > > would win on a flat stretch of road with the same
                            > > > rider?
                            > > > > > > > > > > (I'm talking about gear ratio advantage)
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > Brandon
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Rich Wood
                            Brandon; Rohloff, Shimano, Sturmey Archer and SRAM all now have some hub versions that can have brake discs mounted per their web sites. Disc brake calipers
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 12, 2008
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                              Brandon;

                              Rohloff, Shimano, Sturmey Archer and SRAM all now have some hub
                              versions that can have brake discs mounted per their web sites.
                              Disc brake calipers still need special caliper mounting provisions
                              on the frame and front forks however.

                              Disc brakes are much better working than rim brakes in wet weather.
                              This is particularly true of rim brakes and the old steel rims, a
                              bad combination in the wet with most caliper brake pad materials.

                              Heavier than caliper brakes but no rim wear or worries about tires
                              overheating in long downhill descents. Disc brakes are becoming
                              commoner on commuter and city bikes in the U.S. due to their better
                              wet weather performance. Also very common on better mountain bikes.

                              If you take a look at the Sturmey Archer web site they still list 3,
                              5 and 8 speed hubs in quite a variety. No idea of availability down
                              under however. Here is a link to the hubs on the current SA web
                              site.

                              http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs.php

                              Rohloff does have an Aussie branch. Here is a link to it.

                              http://www.rohloff.com.au/

                              Not nearly as complete as the Rohloff main site as some links seem
                              to be not functional on the Aussie site. If you are truly
                              interested in Rohloff hubs go to the main site and download the
                              manual in PDF format, a total of about 132 pages. It is in 3 parts
                              in PDF format. Here is a link to their downloads page. If nothing
                              else it is an interesting read if you are a technofreak.

                              http://www.rohloff.de/en/download/description/index.html#c1453

                              Rich Wood


                              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                              <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn't know
                              > they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs.
                              >
                              > The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you like it a very
                              > amazing bit of machinery i wouldn't mind one myself.
                              >
                              > My hub didn't have wing nuts when i got it because it didn't have
                              any
                              > nuts on it so it could have had wing nuts it is made in England
                              and is
                              > genuine.
                              >
                              > I have a couple of sturmey archers i will put one on here have a
                              look
                              > in my Sturmey archer folder.
                              >
                              > Surfers paradise is a great place to ride i can drive there on the
                              > pacific highway and it takes about 1 hour but ballina is one very
                              nice
                              > place to ride with plenty of bike paths and is flat and best of
                              all it
                              > is next to the beach.
                              >
                              > i also collect vintage bicycles i have a 1969 SA S5 hub with two
                              > cables one one side is the classic indicator chain and on the left
                              > side is a shimano type push rod changer it pushes a thin rod into
                              the
                              > hub to change gears i have completely rebuilt it and it is a
                              extremely
                              > good hub.
                              >
                              > Brandon.
                              >
                              >
                            • brandon
                              Disc brakes are expensive but effective on mountain bikes and yes i would prefer to have disc brakes on my bike in the wet also have you heard of the old S5
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 12, 2008
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                                Disc brakes are expensive but effective on mountain bikes and yes i
                                would prefer to have disc brakes on my bike in the wet also have you
                                heard of the old S5 rich?, its a interesting hub used on 1970s
                                dragsters and touring bikes.
                                I would like a rohloff but they are from a bike review site $850!
                                probably worth it but with the same money i could buy a brand new
                                giant road bike and have a shimano nexus hub installed on it.

                                Brandon.



                                --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                                <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Brandon;
                                >
                                > Rohloff, Shimano, Sturmey Archer and SRAM all now have some hub
                                > versions that can have brake discs mounted per their web sites.
                                > Disc brake calipers still need special caliper mounting provisions
                                > on the frame and front forks however.
                                >
                                > Disc brakes are much better working than rim brakes in wet weather.
                                > This is particularly true of rim brakes and the old steel rims, a
                                > bad combination in the wet with most caliper brake pad materials.
                                >
                                > Heavier than caliper brakes but no rim wear or worries about tires
                                > overheating in long downhill descents. Disc brakes are becoming
                                > commoner on commuter and city bikes in the U.S. due to their better
                                > wet weather performance. Also very common on better mountain bikes.
                                >
                                > If you take a look at the Sturmey Archer web site they still list 3,
                                > 5 and 8 speed hubs in quite a variety. No idea of availability down
                                > under however. Here is a link to the hubs on the current SA web
                                > site.
                                >
                                > http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs.php
                                >
                                > Rohloff does have an Aussie branch. Here is a link to it.
                                >
                                > http://www.rohloff.com.au/
                                >
                                > Not nearly as complete as the Rohloff main site as some links seem
                                > to be not functional on the Aussie site. If you are truly
                                > interested in Rohloff hubs go to the main site and download the
                                > manual in PDF format, a total of about 132 pages. It is in 3 parts
                                > in PDF format. Here is a link to their downloads page. If nothing
                                > else it is an interesting read if you are a technofreak.
                                >
                                > http://www.rohloff.de/en/download/description/index.html#c1453
                                >
                                > Rich Wood
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                                > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn't know
                                > > they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs.
                                > >
                                > > The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you like it a very
                                > > amazing bit of machinery i wouldn't mind one myself.
                                > >
                                > > My hub didn't have wing nuts when i got it because it didn't have
                                > any
                                > > nuts on it so it could have had wing nuts it is made in England
                                > and is
                                > > genuine.
                                > >
                                > > I have a couple of sturmey archers i will put one on here have a
                                > look
                                > > in my Sturmey archer folder.
                                > >
                                > > Surfers paradise is a great place to ride i can drive there on the
                                > > pacific highway and it takes about 1 hour but ballina is one very
                                > nice
                                > > place to ride with plenty of bike paths and is flat and best of
                                > all it
                                > > is next to the beach.
                                > >
                                > > i also collect vintage bicycles i have a 1969 SA S5 hub with two
                                > > cables one one side is the classic indicator chain and on the left
                                > > side is a shimano type push rod changer it pushes a thin rod into
                                > the
                                > > hub to change gears i have completely rebuilt it and it is a
                                > extremely
                                > > good hub.
                                > >
                                > > Brandon.
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Rich Wood
                                Brandon; Not sure if it is the same unit but the Sturmey Archer web site still lists an S5 model gear hub. Probably not as it looks like the current S5 has a
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 13, 2008
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                                  Brandon;

                                  Not sure if it is the same unit but the Sturmey Archer web site
                                  still lists an S5 model gear hub. Probably not as it looks like the
                                  current S5 has a single cable control. Heard of it but I have never
                                  seen one.

                                  With the weak U.S. dollar the Rohloff hub is now in the $1200 to
                                  $1500 range here depending on configuration.

                                  Basically I consider it to be the Campy Record or Shimano Dura Ace
                                  hub equivalent or maybe, considering it's gear range, the Shimano
                                  XTR of hubs. By reputation more durable than any of the above
                                  however. According to a PDF on the Thorn bikes web site about use
                                  of the hub, one owner has reportedly covered 190,000 Km on his
                                  Rohloff hub without failure, not counting cables and output
                                  sprockets I would presume. Not sure how many derailleurs, casettes
                                  and chainrings you would go through in that distance but I suspect a
                                  lot.

                                  When you look at the top end Shimano and Campy derailleur setups
                                  with derailleurs, combined brake and shifter levers along with rear
                                  hub and casette the Rohloff price does not appear too bad. A recent
                                  price check I did showed the Campy Record rear derailleur at over
                                  $400 and the brifters at about $600 U.S.

                                  I am thinking of getting the SRAM 5 speed hub and building a wheel
                                  for my fixed gear bike frame. I currently have the fixed gear wheel
                                  and a older Sachs 3 speed wheel for it. The SRAM unit is available
                                  with the proper width to fit the narrow frame dropouts well.

                                  Rich Wood


                                  --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                                  <rogersbrandon96@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Disc brakes are expensive but effective on mountain bikes and yes i
                                  > would prefer to have disc brakes on my bike in the wet also have
                                  you
                                  > heard of the old S5 rich?, its a interesting hub used on 1970s
                                  > dragsters and touring bikes.
                                  > I would like a rohloff but they are from a bike review site $850!
                                  > probably worth it but with the same money i could buy a brand new
                                  > giant road bike and have a shimano nexus hub installed on it.
                                  >
                                  > Brandon.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                                  > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Brandon;
                                  > >
                                  > > Rohloff, Shimano, Sturmey Archer and SRAM all now have some hub
                                  > > versions that can have brake discs mounted per their web sites.
                                  > > Disc brake calipers still need special caliper mounting
                                  provisions
                                  > > on the frame and front forks however.
                                  > >
                                  > > Disc brakes are much better working than rim brakes in wet
                                  weather.
                                  > > This is particularly true of rim brakes and the old steel rims,
                                  a
                                  > > bad combination in the wet with most caliper brake pad
                                  materials.
                                  > >
                                  > > Heavier than caliper brakes but no rim wear or worries about
                                  tires
                                  > > overheating in long downhill descents. Disc brakes are becoming
                                  > > commoner on commuter and city bikes in the U.S. due to their
                                  better
                                  > > wet weather performance. Also very common on better mountain
                                  bikes.
                                  > >
                                  > > If you take a look at the Sturmey Archer web site they still
                                  list 3,
                                  > > 5 and 8 speed hubs in quite a variety. No idea of availability
                                  down
                                  > > under however. Here is a link to the hubs on the current SA web
                                  > > site.
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs.php
                                  > >
                                  > > Rohloff does have an Aussie branch. Here is a link to it.
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.rohloff.com.au/
                                  > >
                                  > > Not nearly as complete as the Rohloff main site as some links
                                  seem
                                  > > to be not functional on the Aussie site. If you are truly
                                  > > interested in Rohloff hubs go to the main site and download the
                                  > > manual in PDF format, a total of about 132 pages. It is in 3
                                  parts
                                  > > in PDF format. Here is a link to their downloads page. If
                                  nothing
                                  > > else it is an interesting read if you are a technofreak.
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.rohloff.de/en/download/description/index.html#c1453
                                  > >
                                  > > Rich Wood
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                                  > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn't
                                  know
                                  > > > they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you like it a very
                                  > > > amazing bit of machinery i wouldn't mind one myself.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > My hub didn't have wing nuts when i got it because it didn't
                                  have
                                  > > any
                                  > > > nuts on it so it could have had wing nuts it is made in
                                  England
                                  > > and is
                                  > > > genuine.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I have a couple of sturmey archers i will put one on here have
                                  a
                                  > > look
                                  > > > in my Sturmey archer folder.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Surfers paradise is a great place to ride i can drive there on
                                  the
                                  > > > pacific highway and it takes about 1 hour but ballina is one
                                  very
                                  > > nice
                                  > > > place to ride with plenty of bike paths and is flat and best
                                  of
                                  > > all it
                                  > > > is next to the beach.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > i also collect vintage bicycles i have a 1969 SA S5 hub with
                                  two
                                  > > > cables one one side is the classic indicator chain and on the
                                  left
                                  > > > side is a shimano type push rod changer it pushes a thin rod
                                  into
                                  > > the
                                  > > > hub to change gears i have completely rebuilt it and it is a
                                  > > extremely
                                  > > > good hub.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Brandon.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • brandon
                                  I am putting a picture of my S5 on here. Brandon.
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Oct 13, 2008
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                                    I am putting a picture of my S5 on here.

                                    Brandon.
                                    --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                                    <astronut1001@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Brandon;
                                    >
                                    > Not sure if it is the same unit but the Sturmey Archer web site
                                    > still lists an S5 model gear hub. Probably not as it looks like the
                                    > current S5 has a single cable control. Heard of it but I have never
                                    > seen one.
                                    >
                                    > With the weak U.S. dollar the Rohloff hub is now in the $1200 to
                                    > $1500 range here depending on configuration.
                                    >
                                    > Basically I consider it to be the Campy Record or Shimano Dura Ace
                                    > hub equivalent or maybe, considering it's gear range, the Shimano
                                    > XTR of hubs. By reputation more durable than any of the above
                                    > however. According to a PDF on the Thorn bikes web site about use
                                    > of the hub, one owner has reportedly covered 190,000 Km on his
                                    > Rohloff hub without failure, not counting cables and output
                                    > sprockets I would presume. Not sure how many derailleurs, casettes
                                    > and chainrings you would go through in that distance but I suspect a
                                    > lot.
                                    >
                                    > When you look at the top end Shimano and Campy derailleur setups
                                    > with derailleurs, combined brake and shifter levers along with rear
                                    > hub and casette the Rohloff price does not appear too bad. A recent
                                    > price check I did showed the Campy Record rear derailleur at over
                                    > $400 and the brifters at about $600 U.S.
                                    >
                                    > I am thinking of getting the SRAM 5 speed hub and building a wheel
                                    > for my fixed gear bike frame. I currently have the fixed gear wheel
                                    > and a older Sachs 3 speed wheel for it. The SRAM unit is available
                                    > with the proper width to fit the narrow frame dropouts well.
                                    >
                                    > Rich Wood
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                                    > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Disc brakes are expensive but effective on mountain bikes and yes i
                                    > > would prefer to have disc brakes on my bike in the wet also have
                                    > you
                                    > > heard of the old S5 rich?, its a interesting hub used on 1970s
                                    > > dragsters and touring bikes.
                                    > > I would like a rohloff but they are from a bike review site $850!
                                    > > probably worth it but with the same money i could buy a brand new
                                    > > giant road bike and have a shimano nexus hub installed on it.
                                    > >
                                    > > Brandon.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                                    > > <astronut1001@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Brandon;
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Rohloff, Shimano, Sturmey Archer and SRAM all now have some hub
                                    > > > versions that can have brake discs mounted per their web sites.
                                    > > > Disc brake calipers still need special caliper mounting
                                    > provisions
                                    > > > on the frame and front forks however.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Disc brakes are much better working than rim brakes in wet
                                    > weather.
                                    > > > This is particularly true of rim brakes and the old steel rims,
                                    > a
                                    > > > bad combination in the wet with most caliper brake pad
                                    > materials.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Heavier than caliper brakes but no rim wear or worries about
                                    > tires
                                    > > > overheating in long downhill descents. Disc brakes are becoming
                                    > > > commoner on commuter and city bikes in the U.S. due to their
                                    > better
                                    > > > wet weather performance. Also very common on better mountain
                                    > bikes.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > If you take a look at the Sturmey Archer web site they still
                                    > list 3,
                                    > > > 5 and 8 speed hubs in quite a variety. No idea of availability
                                    > down
                                    > > > under however. Here is a link to the hubs on the current SA web
                                    > > > site.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs.php
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Rohloff does have an Aussie branch. Here is a link to it.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > http://www.rohloff.com.au/
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Not nearly as complete as the Rohloff main site as some links
                                    > seem
                                    > > > to be not functional on the Aussie site. If you are truly
                                    > > > interested in Rohloff hubs go to the main site and download the
                                    > > > manual in PDF format, a total of about 132 pages. It is in 3
                                    > parts
                                    > > > in PDF format. Here is a link to their downloads page. If
                                    > nothing
                                    > > > else it is an interesting read if you are a technofreak.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > http://www.rohloff.de/en/download/description/index.html#c1453
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Rich Wood
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "brandon"
                                    > > > <rogersbrandon96@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > My town is ballina i used to live in lismore and wow i didn't
                                    > know
                                    > > > > they used disc brakes on inner geared hubs.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > The rohloff hub is pretty nice i can see why you like it a very
                                    > > > > amazing bit of machinery i wouldn't mind one myself.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > My hub didn't have wing nuts when i got it because it didn't
                                    > have
                                    > > > any
                                    > > > > nuts on it so it could have had wing nuts it is made in
                                    > England
                                    > > > and is
                                    > > > > genuine.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I have a couple of sturmey archers i will put one on here have
                                    > a
                                    > > > look
                                    > > > > in my Sturmey archer folder.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Surfers paradise is a great place to ride i can drive there on
                                    > the
                                    > > > > pacific highway and it takes about 1 hour but ballina is one
                                    > very
                                    > > > nice
                                    > > > > place to ride with plenty of bike paths and is flat and best
                                    > of
                                    > > > all it
                                    > > > > is next to the beach.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > i also collect vintage bicycles i have a 1969 SA S5 hub with
                                    > two
                                    > > > > cables one one side is the classic indicator chain and on the
                                    > left
                                    > > > > side is a shimano type push rod changer it pushes a thin rod
                                    > into
                                    > > > the
                                    > > > > hub to change gears i have completely rebuilt it and it is a
                                    > > > extremely
                                    > > > > good hub.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Brandon.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Mark Stonich
                                    ... While I m sure some were raced, the AM was intended for the non-competitive sporting rider. The AC and earlier AR had much closer ratios and were better
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Nov 21, 2008
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                                      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                                      > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare Sturmey
                                      > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost all
                                      > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                                      > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                                      > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.

                                      While I'm sure some were raced, the AM was intended for the
                                      non-competitive sporting rider. The AC and earlier AR had much closer
                                      ratios and were better suited for TTs.

                                      Looking at the exploded views on Hadland's site The AM appears to be
                                      much more robust. Much the same design as the FW & S5. One of the
                                      guys on our Saturday rides uses an AM, even when we go off-road. And
                                      we've had a few on the Lake Pepin event.
                                    • Mike Bullis
                                      I ve been inside my AM once or twice and I would have guessed I was looking at the guts of an FW or S5, except for the lack of a secondary sun gear. Got
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Nov 21, 2008
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                                        I've been inside my AM once or twice and I would have guessed I was looking at the guts of an FW or S5, except for the lack of a secondary sun gear. Got lucky recently when I bought a box of parts and there were a few AM and few FW shift rods in it.

                                        --- On Fri, 11/21/08, Mark Stonich <mark@...> wrote:
                                        From: Mark Stonich <mark@...>
                                        Subject: [Geared_hub_bikes] Re: Sturmey archer question
                                        To: Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Friday, November 21, 2008, 7:39 PM

                                        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@ yahoogroups. com, "Rich Wood"
                                        > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare Sturmey
                                        > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost all
                                        > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                                        > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                                        > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.

                                        While I'm sure some were raced, the AM was intended for the
                                        non-competitive sporting rider. The AC and earlier AR had much closer
                                        ratios and were better suited for TTs.

                                        Looking at the exploded views on Hadland's site The AM appears to be
                                        much more robust. Much the same design as the FW & S5. One of the
                                        guys on our Saturday rides uses an AM, even when we go off-road. And
                                        we've had a few on the Lake Pepin event.


                                      • Rich Wood
                                        Mark; Were virtually all British TTs reasonably flat? I remember a TDF TT that was held on Alp d Huez as I recall. ;-) Rich Wood ... Sturmey ... all ...
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Nov 22, 2008
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                                          Mark;

                                          Were virtually all British TTs reasonably flat? I remember a TDF TT
                                          that was held on Alp d'Huez as I recall. ;-)

                                          Rich Wood


                                          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Stonich" <mark@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Wood"
                                          > > Based on the info I have seen what you have is a pretty rare
                                          Sturmey
                                          > > Archer hub. Originally it was designed for sports use. Almost
                                          all
                                          > > British road competition at the time was time trials held on
                                          > > relatively flat courses and the AM looks to be designed for just
                                          > > such use with it's narrow range of gearing.
                                          >
                                          > While I'm sure some were raced, the AM was intended for the
                                          > non-competitive sporting rider. The AC and earlier AR had much
                                          closer
                                          > ratios and were better suited for TTs.
                                          >
                                          > Looking at the exploded views on Hadland's site The AM appears to
                                          be
                                          > much more robust. Much the same design as the FW & S5. One of the
                                          > guys on our Saturday rides uses an AM, even when we go off-road.
                                          And
                                          > we've had a few on the Lake Pepin event.
                                          >
                                        • Mark Stonich
                                          ... I don t know about virtually all but there was a tendency to design courses that would produce fast times. Such as using the shoulders of busy motorways
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Nov 25, 2008
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                                            At 11:59 AM 11/22/2008, you wrote:
                                            >Were virtually all British TTs reasonably flat?

                                            I don't know about "virtually all" but there was a tendency to design
                                            courses that would produce fast times. Such as using the shoulders
                                            of busy motorways to take advantage of the "Tailwind" created by
                                            passing cars. I do know that John Woodburn used ACs and FCs for his
                                            attempts at the Cardiff to London record which he finally got. 162
                                            miles and not particularly flat. Hill climbs were basically uphill
                                            TTs and usually done on a single speed bike.

                                            >I remember a TDF TT that was held on Alp d'Huez as I recall. ;-)

                                            Refresh my memory, is that in Surry or Kent?


                                            Mark Stonich;
                                            BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                                            5349 Elliot Ave S. - Minneapolis. MN 55417
                                            Ph. (612) 824-2372 http://bikesmithdesign.com
                                            http://mnhpva.org
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