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Re: Sturmey S3X - where to buy?

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  • prester_john_in_cathay
    ... It s not just a fixed gear hub. The S3X has a threaded driver which will take a std. single speed freewheel, so it can be used as a neo-AM. tcs
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 6, 2009
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      Mark wrote in part:
      > Somehow the phrases
      > "Fixed Gear" and "Senior Citizen" don't
      > seem to belong in the same sentence.

      It's not just a fixed gear hub. The S3X has a threaded driver which will take a std. single speed freewheel, so it can be used as a neo-AM.

      tcs
    • prester_john_in_cathay
      ... The rumored price of the S3X is 3X the street price of an SRF3 kit, and some 80% of the street price of a naked SG-8R36. I m not sure why it should be
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 6, 2009
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        Mark wrote in part:
        > I have to admit I'd feel better about
        > the hub if the price were
        > higher.

        The rumored price of the S3X is 3X the street price of an SRF3 kit, and some 80% of the street price of a naked SG-8R36. I'm not sure why it should be more.

        PJ
      • Mark Stonich
        ... Not much like an AM, the 2nd to 3rd shift is 33.33 %, same as an AW vs. 15.45% for an AM. More like an AW with a less useful low gear. It does look like
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 6, 2009
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          At  10/6/2009 05:26 PM +0000, prester_john_in_cathay wrote:
            Mark wrote in part:
          > Somehow the phrases
          > "Fixed Gear" and "Senior Citizen" don't
          > seem to belong in the same sentence.

          It's not just a fixed gear hub. The S3X has a threaded driver which will take a std. single speed freewheel, so it can be used as a neo-AM.

          Not much like an AM, the 2nd to 3rd shift is 33.33 %, same as an AW vs. 15.45% for an AM.  More like an AW with a less useful low gear. 

          It does look like there is room on that driver for 2 cogs though.

          Mark Stonich;
            BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
              5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
                   Ph. (612) 824-2372  http://bikesmithdesign.com
                               http://mnhpva.org

        • prester_john_in_cathay
          ... I doubt if all IGH users would agree that wider steps between the gears are always better, but any who do can retire their old FMs in favor of the new
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 6, 2009
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            Mark wrote in part:
            > More like an AW with a less useful low gear.

            I doubt if all IGH users would agree that wider steps between the gears are always better, but any who do can retire their old FMs in favor of the new SRF5(W).

            PJ
          • Mark Stonich
            ... High development cost per unit, hopefully higher strength metals and I expect a lot of failures under warrantee (truly hope I m wrong). I want them to
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 6, 2009
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              At  10/6/2009 05:35 PM +0000, prester_john_in_cathay wrote:
                Mark wrote in part:
              > I have to admit I'd feel better about
              > the hub if the price were
              > higher.

              The rumored price of the S3X is 3X the street price of an SRF3 kit, and some 80% of the street price of a naked SG-8R36. I'm not sure why it should be more.

              High development cost per unit, hopefully higher strength metals and I expect a lot of failures under warrantee (truly hope I'm wrong).  I want them to make enough money to consider other sporting hub revivals. 

              The Schlumpf 2 speed fixed unicycle hub is $1,200-$1,400. Twice what he charges for a Speed Drive that only takes force in one direction.  And you can't skid a Uni.

              Mark Stonich;
                BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                  5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
                       Ph. (612) 824-2372  http://bikesmithdesign.com
                                   http://mnhpva.org

            • Mark Stonich
              ... As a freewheeling hub, with a 33.33% jump to high it would in no way be considered a sporting hub. If the 1st to 2nd was 33.33% and the 2nd to 3rd were
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 6, 2009
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                At  10/6/2009 07:26 PM +0000, you wrote:
                Mark wrote in part:
                > More like an AW with a less useful low gear.

                I doubt if all IGH users would agree that wider steps between the gears are always better, but any who do can retire their old FMs in favor of the new SRF5(W).

                As a freewheeling hub, with a 33.33% jump to high it would in no way be considered a sporting hub.  If the 1st to 2nd was 33.33% and the 2nd to 3rd were 20% it would make sense.  Power requirement go up logarithmically with the increase in speed so tighter ratios the higher you go are desirable.  This is the reason for the complexity of the sporting hubs, AC, FC and FM.  The FW, S5 and AM were much simpler and more robust.

                I believe the S3X ratios are because of parts in common with the 5(W).  At least the design, a 5(W) without 4th and 5th. is simpler and stronger than the ASC which was an FC without 4th. 

                Mark Stonich;
                  BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                    5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
                         Ph. (612) 824-2372  http://bikesmithdesign.com
                                     http://mnhpva.org

              • Mike Wilson
                Mark Stonich writes that the FM had the perfect set of ratios. Yes it did when I used it 25 years ago. It would not be enough gear range for me today, despite
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 7, 2009
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                  Mark Stonich writes that the FM had the perfect set of ratios.

                  Yes it did when I used it 25 years ago. It would not be enough gear range for me today, despite my being faster than ever before at any distance. The late-70s S5 I put on that bike 20 years ago as a replacement has worked very well though (although it also is too narrow a range for me today).

                  Also writes that the S3X fixed might be too wide. My experience with the T and the ASC and single-speed fixed says that the wider the better, although the shift transition becomes interesting. I have an 8:1 speed ratio on fixed; a measly 1.33:1 ratio does not do much for the steep hills where the multiple gears are desirable.

                  The original T hub was also available with a 12 spline freewheel, which I believe would fit an ASC. So this freewheel option is not new either. I have a pair of 12 spline freewheels; one could be available if anyone cares. I may not have a spare of the deep lockrings required though.

                  Price on the S3X? The 220 pounds is about what I paid for each of the last 2 ASCs I bought.

                  On the subject of multispeed fixed - I have read about but never seen Bendix 2 speed conversions and Sachs 5 speed to 3 speed fixed conversions. As best as I can tell neither of these conversions had the gear lash issues that most SA conversions had. For me a major joy of fixed is the direct connection of pedal to rear wheel, and even the ASC is more lash than I like; the T is better.

                  demultiplicator relais? I have one, but never found a use for it. I thought it was to convert the shifters for the true linear-pull derailleurs to operate the new-fangled parallelogram style (back around 1950 or whenever that transition happened).
                • Mark Stonich
                  ... IMHO The ratios are perfectly spaced within it s range. Obviously, if your terrain vs. fitness equation requires a wider range you need another hub. ...
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 7, 2009
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                    At  10/7/2009 09:00 AM -0400, Mike Wilson  wrote:
                      Mark Stonich writes that the FM had the perfect set of ratios.

                    IMHO The ratios are perfectly spaced within it's range.   Obviously, if your terrain vs. fitness equation requires a wider range you need another hub. 

                    Yes it did when I used it 25 years ago. It would not be enough gear range for me today, despite my being faster than ever before at any distance.

                    Interesting. As I get older I find that I need fewer gears.  Hadn't had an SS in 32 years. 1st day out on my current one I did 62 miles.  The trick to getting by with few gears is being realistic about your high gear needs. 

                     The late-70s S5 I put on that bike 20 years ago as a replacement has worked very well though (although it also is too narrow a range for me today).

                    My wife, a great grandmother, has 6 bikes, 5 of which have S5s.  Must be flatter here.  

                    Also writes that the S3X fixed might be too wide.

                    Too wide a gap between 2nd and 3rd for a sporting, freewheeling hub.  As it is, I think that by gearing for 2nd to be the same gear as my SS I'll be just fine with it as a fixed gear. 

                     I have an 8:1 speed ratio on fixed;

                    ??????

                     a measly 1.33:1 ratio does not do much for the steep hills where the multiple gears are desirable.

                    The original T hub was also available with a 12 spline freewheel, which I believe would fit an ASC. So this freewheel option is not new either. I have a pair of 12 spline freewheels; one could be available if anyone cares. I may not have a spare of the deep lockrings required though.

                    Price on the S3X? The 220 pounds is about what I paid for each of the last 2 ASCs I bought.

                    That price seems way out of line.   At least in relation to projected wholesale prices in the US.

                    On the subject of multispeed fixed - I have read about but never seen Bendix 2 speed conversions and Sachs 5 speed to 3 speed fixed conversions. As best as I can tell neither of these conversions had the gear lash issues that most SA conversions had. For me a major joy of fixed is the direct connection of pedal to rear wheel, and even the ASC is more lash than I like; the T is better.

                    Many of the people making the SA conversions did not have the ability to make low play clutches.  
                    Some, such as Lewis Campbell do;
                    http://bikesmithdesign.com/SA/LewisClutch1sm.jpg
                    BTW He does these on manual machines and very slowly. So AFAIK they are not for sale. 

                    Last I heard the guy who designed the part for the Sachs conversions didn't have any and had no plans to make more.  My CNC guys could pump out both the SA and Sachs bits at a reasonable price.  But with the S3X coming out, it doesn't look like an economically viable idea. 

                    demultiplicator relais? I have one, but never found a use for it. I thought it was to convert the shifters for the true linear-pull derailleurs to operate the new-fangled parallelogram style (back around 1950 or whenever that transition happened).

                    It's great for using a Huret or early Shimano RD with their strong springs with SunTour BarCons which were designed for use with the lightly sprung SunTour RDs.  If you set the friction tighter on the BarCons they don't move smoothly. 

                    Mark Stonich;
                      BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                        5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
                             Ph. (612) 824-2372  http://bikesmithdesign.com
                                         http://mnhpva.org

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