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Re: The Ideal Kids First Multispeed Bike?

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  • atgep
    I picked up used kid sized mountain bikes. A trek, Giant, and Gary Fisher. Each bike a little bigger to get my 3 kids on multi speed. Kids will only spend a
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 5, 2009
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      I picked up used kid sized mountain bikes. A trek, Giant, and Gary Fisher. Each bike a little bigger to get my 3 kids on multi speed. Kids will only spend a year or 2 on a properly sized bike. If you buy quality used, you can sell it for what it cost. The smaller 20 inch ones are 5 speed and the bigger 24 inch is 21 speeds. After they get to full sized bikes, an investment in a nice IGH setup could be purchased once. Just my opinion of course.

      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stonich <mark@...> wrote:
      >
      > At 10/5/2009 08:41 PM +0000, Rich wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >I have been thinking, dangerous I know ;-)
      > >
      > >It seems to me that the ideal kids first multigear bike would be a 3
      > >or 5 speed IGH bike with trigger shifter and possibly a coaster rear
      > >brake, depending on the childs size and strength.
      > >
      > >The trigger shifter is easier to operate than the typical derailleur
      > >grip shifter typically found on kids derailleur bikes. From posts I
      > >have seen many kids do not have the wrist strength to operate twist
      > >shifters readily. If too small their hands are also too small to
      > >effectively handle a hand brake lever either. Maybe a coaster rear
      > >brake and a hand operated front one?
      > >
      > >So far as I know currently such a bike is a DIY project as I am not
      > >aware of any kid size IGH bikes being currently made. Is this a void
      > >in manufacturers product lines? Should there be 16" and 20" IGH
      > >bikes aimed at the kids market or would they have to be too
      > >expensive to sell well?
      >
      > What age are you talking about? Any kid too small to operate a twist
      > shifter isn't going to know what gear to be in.
      >
      > My vote is for the Nexus Auto-D 4 speed. Sadly out of production
      > these were reliable in rental use under full sized adults. Quite
      > unobtrusive to use also with sport, normal and manual modes,
      >
      >
      > Mark Stonich;
      > BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
      > 5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
      > Ph. (612) 824-2372 http://bikesmithdesign.com
      > http://mnhpva.org
      >
    • Rich
      Mark; I was thinking the 5 to 7 year old category as I have seen some posts on BF indicating that is the age where grip shifters can be difficult to operate
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 5, 2009
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        Mark;

        I was thinking the 5 to 7 year old category as I have seen some posts on BF indicating that is the age where grip shifters can be difficult to operate for some kids. Some I have tried seemed to be pretty stiff operating. I do not have any kids of my own which is why I just tossed it out as an idea and asked for input.

        Heck I have read of adults who could not seem to learn how to best use a derailleur gear setup.

        Rich Wood


        --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stonich <mark@...> wrote:
        >
        > At 10/5/2009 08:41 PM +0000, Rich wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >I have been thinking, dangerous I know ;-)
        > >
        > >It seems to me that the ideal kids first multigear bike would be a 3
        > >or 5 speed IGH bike with trigger shifter and possibly a coaster rear
        > >brake, depending on the childs size and strength.
        > >
        > >The trigger shifter is easier to operate than the typical derailleur
        > >grip shifter typically found on kids derailleur bikes. From posts I
        > >have seen many kids do not have the wrist strength to operate twist
        > >shifters readily. If too small their hands are also too small to
        > >effectively handle a hand brake lever either. Maybe a coaster rear
        > >brake and a hand operated front one?
        > >
        > >So far as I know currently such a bike is a DIY project as I am not
        > >aware of any kid size IGH bikes being currently made. Is this a void
        > >in manufacturers product lines? Should there be 16" and 20" IGH
        > >bikes aimed at the kids market or would they have to be too
        > >expensive to sell well?
        >
        > What age are you talking about? Any kid too small to operate a twist
        > shifter isn't going to know what gear to be in.
        >
        > My vote is for the Nexus Auto-D 4 speed. Sadly out of production
        > these were reliable in rental use under full sized adults. Quite
        > unobtrusive to use also with sport, normal and manual modes,
        >
        >
        > Mark Stonich;
        > BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
        > 5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
        > Ph. (612) 824-2372 http://bikesmithdesign.com
        > http://mnhpva.org
        >
      • wahooncx
        My wife has problems with the derailleur geared bikes, thus her favorite bike is a Raleigh Colt 3 speed; this from a woman who can reprogram the entire audio
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 6, 2009
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          My wife has problems with the derailleur geared bikes, thus her favorite bike is a Raleigh Colt 3 speed; this from a woman who can reprogram the entire audio visual system on an Airbus 321 at 35,000 feet from memory. Go figure.

          My two youngsters (not so young anymore) went through a series of bikes. The first multi geared was a 20" wheel BMX style with 5 speeds, then a 24" wheeled MTB with 18 speeds and onto full sized multi geared bikes.

          FWIW they make IGH bikes in the smaller sizes. I have seen pictures of them primarily from the Netherlands and Denmark. We just don't see them in the USA.

          Raleigh did make them in various sizes over the years, I have seen the 24" wheeled version of a Raleigh Sports (it was labeled a Space Rider).

          Aaron

          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <astronut1001@...> wrote:
          >
          > Mark;
          >
          > I was thinking the 5 to 7 year old category as I have seen some posts on BF indicating that is the age where grip shifters can be difficult to operate for some kids. Some I have tried seemed to be pretty stiff operating. I do not have any kids of my own which is why I just tossed it out as an idea and asked for input.
          >
          > Heck I have read of adults who could not seem to learn how to best use a derailleur gear setup.
          >
          > Rich Wood
          >
          >
        • Mark Stonich
          ... IGH twist shifters may require more force than the lightest action derailleur twisters. But years ago I built a recumbent for a 7 year old with Juvenile
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 6, 2009
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            At  10/6/2009 02:24 AM +0000, Rich wrote:
            Mark;

            I was thinking the 5 to 7 year old category as I have seen some posts on BF indicating that is the age where grip shifters can be difficult to operate for some kids. Some I have tried seemed to be pretty stiff operating. I do not have any kids of my own which is why I just tossed it out as an idea and asked for input.

            Heck I have read of adults who could not seem to learn how to best use a derailleur gear setup.

            IGH twist shifters may require more force than the lightest action derailleur twisters.   But years ago I built a recumbent for a 7 year old with Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis.  His hand strength was well below normal yet he had no problem using Shimano's light action twister.   BTW He went into remission a few years ago and has done some Triathalons.

            This year I built a recumbent for a woman with severe hand problems.  I used SRAM X05 rear der, and twisters.  Even though I had to provide wrist supports so she didn't have to grasp the bars most of the time, she shifts OK. 

            At 5 y/o my boys were using a SunTour BarCon shifter with a 3 speed freewheel and a Huret Svelto on a 500A (ETRTO 440-37) wheeled Gitane "Midget Racer". http://www.gitaneusa.com/images/catalog/1975_pg5.jpg  The only alloy parts were the brakes, levers and chainguard, yet because it was so small it was under 20 lbs.

             I used a Huret Demultiplicator Relais to allow me to loosen up the shifter. 

            Mark Stonich;
              BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
                     Ph. (612) 824-2372  http://bikesmithdesign.com
                                 http://mnhpva.org

          • Rich
            Mark; See! As a custom fabricator you have a lot more expertise in this area than I have. Thanks as I am learning a lot. I have never heard of or seen the
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 6, 2009
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              Mark;

              See! As a custom fabricator you have a lot more expertise in this area than I have. Thanks as I am learning a lot.

              I have never heard of or seen the Huret Demulitiplicator Relais. Do you have a link to a description and/or picture?

              The LBS I deal with primarily has done some custom work for disabled bicyclists from what the owner has told me. One I see riding around town is a one armed Vietnam veteran.

              Rich Wood


              --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stonich <mark@...> wrote:
              >
              > At 10/6/2009 02:24 AM +0000, Rich wrote:
              > >Mark;
              > >
              > >I was thinking the 5 to 7 year old category as I have seen some
              > >posts on BF indicating that is the age where grip shifters can be
              > >difficult to operate for some kids. Some I have tried seemed to be
              > >pretty stiff operating. I do not have any kids of my own which is
              > >why I just tossed it out as an idea and asked for input.
              > >
              > >Heck I have read of adults who could not seem to learn how to best
              > >use a derailleur gear setup.
              >
              > IGH twist shifters may require more force than the lightest action
              > derailleur twisters. But years ago I built a recumbent for a 7 year
              > old with Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis. His hand strength was well
              > below normal yet he had no problem using Shimano's light action
              > twister. BTW He went into remission a few years ago and has done
              > some Triathalons.
              >
              > This year I built a recumbent for a woman with severe hand
              > problems. I used SRAM X05 rear der, and twisters. Even though I had
              > to provide wrist supports so she didn't have to grasp the bars most
              > of the time, she shifts OK.
              >
              > At 5 y/o my boys were using a SunTour BarCon shifter with a 3 speed
              > freewheel and a Huret Svelto on a 500A (ETRTO 440-37) wheeled Gitane
              > "Midget Racer".
              > http://www.gitaneusa.com/images/catalog/1975_pg5.jpg The only alloy
              > parts were the brakes, levers and chainguard, yet because it was so
              > small it was under 20 lbs.
              >
              > I used a Huret Demultiplicator Relais to allow me to loosen up the shifter.
              >
              >
              > Mark Stonich;
              > BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
              > 5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
              > Ph. (612) 824-2372 http://bikesmithdesign.com
              > http://mnhpva.org
              >
            • Mark Stonich
              ... Of course you haven t, it doesn t exist. I had a brain fart. Should have written SIMPLEX Demulitiplicator Relais.
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 6, 2009
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                At  10/6/2009 06:37 PM +0000, you wrote:
                Mark;

                See! As a custom fabricator you have a lot more expertise in this area than I have. Thanks as I am learning a lot.

                I have never heard of or seen the Huret Demulitiplicator Relais. 

                Of course you haven't, it doesn't exist.  I had a brain fart. Should have written SIMPLEX Demulitiplicator Relais.
                http://velobase.com/CompImages/SmallParts/3E640426-0814-4319-95C1-A182B4A79C62.jpeg

                Do you have a link to a description and/or picture?

                Here's one of mine I made a braze on fitting for, 25 years ago.
                http://bikesmithdesign.com/fittings/demultiplicator.JPG 
                I'd never heard of one being brazed on.   But now that I'm aware of the French Constructeurs, I'm sure it wasn't the 1st.

                It works a bit like a Travel Agent in reverse.  5mm of cable travel at 3kg of force going in is translated to 3mm of cable travel at 5kg of force going out.  Meant for use with bar end shifters. 

                The LBS I deal with primarily has done some custom work for disabled bicyclists from what the owner has told me. One I see riding around town is a one armed Vietnam veteran.

                A large part of my work is for people with some sort of "Special Needs".  Definitely the most satisfying part. 

                Mark Stonich;
                  BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                    5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
                         Ph. (612) 824-2372  http://bikesmithdesign.com
                                     http://mnhpva.org

              • prester_john_in_cathay
                ... SRAM offers a Bandix twist shifter for their three speed hubs that s supposed to require less force to twist. Indications are this shifter is for the
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 9, 2009
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                  > The trigger shifter is easier to
                  > operate than the typical derailleur
                  > grip shifter...

                  SRAM offers a "Bandix" twist shifter for their three speed hubs that's supposed to require less force to twist. Indications are this shifter is for the Euro kid's bikes market. Never seen one, don't know if it does the job.

                  > Maybe a coaster rear brake and a
                  > hand operated front one?

                  My experience has been most kids can shift OK before they're 100% reliable on hand brakes. The front caliper/rear coaaster seems like a good set up on a child's first geared bike.

                  > Should there be 16" and 20" IGH bikes
                  > aimed at the kids market...

                  Yes.

                  > or would they
                  > have to be too expensive to sell well?

                  The way this used to work in America was that affluent families bought nice bikes for their children. When said children outgrew the bikes, they were sold on the used market and passed down through many kids and several socioeconomic levels.

                  Today the children of affluent families play Dave Mirra on their Wii in front of the big screen and are hauled to school, scouts and organized sports in SUVs. Kids down the socioeconomic ladder get POS bikes from big box stores.

                  PJ
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