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Re: Sturmey S3X - where to buy?

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  • shedborn
    Price posted on my blog 13 days ago @ £220 shedborn
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 5, 2009
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      Price posted on my blog 13 days ago @ £220

      shedborn

      --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Mike Wilson <mwilson@...> wrote:
      >
      > Shedborn -
      > So how much for a USA buyer to get one from you?
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Michael Wilson
      >
    • Mark Stonich
      ... Where was this announced at 150 USD? I just got off the phone with one of only 3 official US wholesalers of this hub. Anyone selling it for $150 is
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 5, 2009
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        At  10/4/2009 11:18 AM +0000, you wrote:
         
        OK. So, the S3X seems to be out now. But where to buy? Especially online? My home town dealer told me yesterday: Yes, no problem to order it, retail price is 250 Euro (370 USD)! In the US the hub was announced at 150 USD!!!
        Any ideas?

        Where was this "announced" at 150 USD?  I just got off the phone with one of only 3 official US wholesalers of this hub.  Anyone selling it for $150 is losing money  I expect that until the pent up demand is met they will bring a premium, like the 1st Miatas or a Prius when gas is at $4/gal (A price most of the world envies but which causes much anguish here).

        US distributors will be UBS, QBP and Merry Sales.  In addition Velo Orange will be getting them direct from SA for retail sales because they ordered a lot and got involved early on. 

        They will ship as a kit with bar end shifter (I think he said bar end or did I just hear what I wanted to hear) and everything but the cog.  3/32" cogs will all be 12 or 13t but 1/8" will go up to 18 or so.  Cogs will be relatively inexpensive. 

        Should be in the US "by the end of the month".  (I hope that means October)

        I'm always leery of the 1st batch of anything.  And I'd successfully talked myself out of getting one many times.  Somehow the phrases "Fixed Gear" and "Senior Citizen" don't seem to belong in the same sentence. 

        But as availability draws near I've got fixie fever and a black one on order. To match a Sanshin ProAm high flange front hub.  Because I'm worried about striking a pedal, due to needing wide pedals and knee savers,  I'll be using a proper, high BB, track frame (1976 Paramount) and short cranks, probably 150mm.

        Even though it's not a direct gear, I'll chose cogs and rings to give me my SS gear in 2nd, leaving the much higher top gear for downhills. 

        Mark Stonich;
          BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
            5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
                 Ph. (612) 824-2372  http://bikesmithdesign.com
                             http://mnhpva.org

      • Rich
        Mark; Bike Radar mentioned the $150.00 price as a TARGETED price. http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/interbike-sturmey-archers-new-3-spd-fixed-hub-23456 or
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 5, 2009
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          Mark;

          Bike Radar mentioned the $150.00 price as a TARGETED price.

          http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/interbike-sturmey-archers-new-3-spd-fixed-hub-23456

          or http://tinyurl.com/yckw3cg

          Also Bikesdirect claims to be aiming to have a deep V wheel set for about $250 with bar end shifter and a complete FG bike version for about $450. I will believe it when I see them actually offered at that price.

          Do any of the distributors you mentioned have a suggested retail price for the hub yet? Typical LBS retail on parts and accessories in my area seems to be about double the wholesale price.

          Rich Wood


          --- In Geared_hub_bikes@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stonich <mark@...> wrote:
          >
          > At 10/4/2009 11:18 AM +0000, you wrote:
          > >
          > >OK. So, the S3X seems to be out now. But where to buy? Especially
          > >online? My home town dealer told me yesterday: Yes, no problem to
          > >order it, retail price is 250 Euro (370 USD)! In the US the hub was
          > >announced at 150 USD!!!
          > >Any ideas?
          >
          > Where was this "announced" at 150 USD? I just got off the phone with
          > one of only 3 official US wholesalers of this hub. Anyone selling it
          > for $150 is losing money I expect that until the pent up demand is
          > met they will bring a premium, like the 1st Miatas or a Prius when
          > gas is at $4/gal (A price most of the world envies but which causes
          > much anguish here).
          >
          > US distributors will be UBS, QBP and Merry Sales. In addition Velo
          > Orange will be getting them direct from SA for retail sales because
          > they ordered a lot and got involved early on.
          >
          > They will ship as a kit with bar end shifter (I think he said bar end
          > or did I just hear what I wanted to hear) and everything but the
          > cog. 3/32" cogs will all be 12 or 13t but 1/8" will go up to 18 or
          > so. Cogs will be relatively inexpensive.
          >
          > Should be in the US "by the end of the month". (I hope that means October)
          >
          > I'm always leery of the 1st batch of anything. And I'd successfully
          > talked myself out of getting one many times. Somehow the phrases
          > "Fixed Gear" and "Senior Citizen" don't seem to belong in the same sentence.
          >
          > But as availability draws near I've got fixie fever and a black one
          > on order. To match a Sanshin ProAm high flange front hub. Because
          > I'm worried about striking a pedal, due to needing wide pedals and
          > knee savers, I'll be using a proper, high BB, track frame (1976
          > Paramount) and short cranks, probably 150mm.
          >
          > Even though it's not a direct gear, I'll chose cogs and rings to give
          > me my SS gear in 2nd, leaving the much higher top gear for downhills.
          >
          >
          > Mark Stonich;
          > BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
          > 5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
          > Ph. (612) 824-2372 http://bikesmithdesign.com
          > http://mnhpva.org
          >
        • Mark Stonich
          ... That may just be for the hub itself. I think there is a lot of stuff in the kit. ... They must be getting OEM pricing on wheels built in Asia. ... That
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 6, 2009
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            At  10/6/2009 02:40 AM +0000, you wrote:
            Mark;

            Bike Radar mentioned the $150.00 price as a TARGETED price.

            http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/interbike-sturmey-archers-new-3-spd-fixed-hub-23456

            or http://tinyurl.com/yckw3cg

            That may just be for the hub itself.   I think there is a lot of stuff in the kit. 

            Also Bikesdirect claims to be aiming to have a deep V wheel set for about $250 with bar end shifter

            They must be getting OEM pricing on wheels built in Asia.

            and a complete FG bike version for about $450. I will believe it when I see them actually offered at that price.

            That sure makes it tough on local bike shops.

            Do any of the distributors you mentioned have a suggested retail price for the hub yet?

            I only discussed this with one of them and his suggested markup was less than I expected.  I believe the 1st shipments won't satisfy demand so I would expect to see a healthy markup at first.  

            I have to admit I'd feel better about the hub if the price were higher. If that higher price reflected better materials and a decent return on the high cost of development.  The ACS only had to deal with the loads of people who wanted to ride without coasting.  The S3X will be subject to X-Games type abuse. 

             I'd hate to see them not make a profit on this after all the work they had to do to beef it up.  Because the next thing I want to see is an updated FM (F4M?).   All they would have to do is beef up the low gear pawl track and the secondary planet support.  The ratios were perfect.

            Typical LBS retail on parts and accessories in my area seems to be about double the wholesale price.

            Double is about normal on cheaper items. But as the cost of the item goes up, the markup % goes way down.  There is just about as much paperwork involved in the purchase, stocking and sale of an innertube as there is for a Rohloff hub.   We need local shops to remain profitable.  Nashbar's no help when you need something on Saturday for a ride on Sunday.

            Mark Stonich;
              BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
                     Ph. (612) 824-2372  http://bikesmithdesign.com
                                 http://mnhpva.org

          • prester_john_in_cathay
            ... It s not just a fixed gear hub. The S3X has a threaded driver which will take a std. single speed freewheel, so it can be used as a neo-AM. tcs
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 6, 2009
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              Mark wrote in part:
              > Somehow the phrases
              > "Fixed Gear" and "Senior Citizen" don't
              > seem to belong in the same sentence.

              It's not just a fixed gear hub. The S3X has a threaded driver which will take a std. single speed freewheel, so it can be used as a neo-AM.

              tcs
            • prester_john_in_cathay
              ... The rumored price of the S3X is 3X the street price of an SRF3 kit, and some 80% of the street price of a naked SG-8R36. I m not sure why it should be
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 6, 2009
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                Mark wrote in part:
                > I have to admit I'd feel better about
                > the hub if the price were
                > higher.

                The rumored price of the S3X is 3X the street price of an SRF3 kit, and some 80% of the street price of a naked SG-8R36. I'm not sure why it should be more.

                PJ
              • Mark Stonich
                ... Not much like an AM, the 2nd to 3rd shift is 33.33 %, same as an AW vs. 15.45% for an AM. More like an AW with a less useful low gear. It does look like
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 6, 2009
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                  At  10/6/2009 05:26 PM +0000, prester_john_in_cathay wrote:
                    Mark wrote in part:
                  > Somehow the phrases
                  > "Fixed Gear" and "Senior Citizen" don't
                  > seem to belong in the same sentence.

                  It's not just a fixed gear hub. The S3X has a threaded driver which will take a std. single speed freewheel, so it can be used as a neo-AM.

                  Not much like an AM, the 2nd to 3rd shift is 33.33 %, same as an AW vs. 15.45% for an AM.  More like an AW with a less useful low gear. 

                  It does look like there is room on that driver for 2 cogs though.

                  Mark Stonich;
                    BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                      5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
                           Ph. (612) 824-2372  http://bikesmithdesign.com
                                       http://mnhpva.org

                • prester_john_in_cathay
                  ... I doubt if all IGH users would agree that wider steps between the gears are always better, but any who do can retire their old FMs in favor of the new
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 6, 2009
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                    Mark wrote in part:
                    > More like an AW with a less useful low gear.

                    I doubt if all IGH users would agree that wider steps between the gears are always better, but any who do can retire their old FMs in favor of the new SRF5(W).

                    PJ
                  • Mark Stonich
                    ... High development cost per unit, hopefully higher strength metals and I expect a lot of failures under warrantee (truly hope I m wrong). I want them to
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 6, 2009
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                      At  10/6/2009 05:35 PM +0000, prester_john_in_cathay wrote:
                        Mark wrote in part:
                      > I have to admit I'd feel better about
                      > the hub if the price were
                      > higher.

                      The rumored price of the S3X is 3X the street price of an SRF3 kit, and some 80% of the street price of a naked SG-8R36. I'm not sure why it should be more.

                      High development cost per unit, hopefully higher strength metals and I expect a lot of failures under warrantee (truly hope I'm wrong).  I want them to make enough money to consider other sporting hub revivals. 

                      The Schlumpf 2 speed fixed unicycle hub is $1,200-$1,400. Twice what he charges for a Speed Drive that only takes force in one direction.  And you can't skid a Uni.

                      Mark Stonich;
                        BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                          5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
                               Ph. (612) 824-2372  http://bikesmithdesign.com
                                           http://mnhpva.org

                    • Mark Stonich
                      ... As a freewheeling hub, with a 33.33% jump to high it would in no way be considered a sporting hub. If the 1st to 2nd was 33.33% and the 2nd to 3rd were
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 6, 2009
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                        At  10/6/2009 07:26 PM +0000, you wrote:
                        Mark wrote in part:
                        > More like an AW with a less useful low gear.

                        I doubt if all IGH users would agree that wider steps between the gears are always better, but any who do can retire their old FMs in favor of the new SRF5(W).

                        As a freewheeling hub, with a 33.33% jump to high it would in no way be considered a sporting hub.  If the 1st to 2nd was 33.33% and the 2nd to 3rd were 20% it would make sense.  Power requirement go up logarithmically with the increase in speed so tighter ratios the higher you go are desirable.  This is the reason for the complexity of the sporting hubs, AC, FC and FM.  The FW, S5 and AM were much simpler and more robust.

                        I believe the S3X ratios are because of parts in common with the 5(W).  At least the design, a 5(W) without 4th and 5th. is simpler and stronger than the ASC which was an FC without 4th. 

                        Mark Stonich;
                          BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                            5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
                                 Ph. (612) 824-2372  http://bikesmithdesign.com
                                             http://mnhpva.org

                      • Mike Wilson
                        Mark Stonich writes that the FM had the perfect set of ratios. Yes it did when I used it 25 years ago. It would not be enough gear range for me today, despite
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 7, 2009
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                          Mark Stonich writes that the FM had the perfect set of ratios.

                          Yes it did when I used it 25 years ago. It would not be enough gear range for me today, despite my being faster than ever before at any distance. The late-70s S5 I put on that bike 20 years ago as a replacement has worked very well though (although it also is too narrow a range for me today).

                          Also writes that the S3X fixed might be too wide. My experience with the T and the ASC and single-speed fixed says that the wider the better, although the shift transition becomes interesting. I have an 8:1 speed ratio on fixed; a measly 1.33:1 ratio does not do much for the steep hills where the multiple gears are desirable.

                          The original T hub was also available with a 12 spline freewheel, which I believe would fit an ASC. So this freewheel option is not new either. I have a pair of 12 spline freewheels; one could be available if anyone cares. I may not have a spare of the deep lockrings required though.

                          Price on the S3X? The 220 pounds is about what I paid for each of the last 2 ASCs I bought.

                          On the subject of multispeed fixed - I have read about but never seen Bendix 2 speed conversions and Sachs 5 speed to 3 speed fixed conversions. As best as I can tell neither of these conversions had the gear lash issues that most SA conversions had. For me a major joy of fixed is the direct connection of pedal to rear wheel, and even the ASC is more lash than I like; the T is better.

                          demultiplicator relais? I have one, but never found a use for it. I thought it was to convert the shifters for the true linear-pull derailleurs to operate the new-fangled parallelogram style (back around 1950 or whenever that transition happened).
                        • Mark Stonich
                          ... IMHO The ratios are perfectly spaced within it s range. Obviously, if your terrain vs. fitness equation requires a wider range you need another hub. ...
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 7, 2009
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                            At  10/7/2009 09:00 AM -0400, Mike Wilson  wrote:
                              Mark Stonich writes that the FM had the perfect set of ratios.

                            IMHO The ratios are perfectly spaced within it's range.   Obviously, if your terrain vs. fitness equation requires a wider range you need another hub. 

                            Yes it did when I used it 25 years ago. It would not be enough gear range for me today, despite my being faster than ever before at any distance.

                            Interesting. As I get older I find that I need fewer gears.  Hadn't had an SS in 32 years. 1st day out on my current one I did 62 miles.  The trick to getting by with few gears is being realistic about your high gear needs. 

                             The late-70s S5 I put on that bike 20 years ago as a replacement has worked very well though (although it also is too narrow a range for me today).

                            My wife, a great grandmother, has 6 bikes, 5 of which have S5s.  Must be flatter here.  

                            Also writes that the S3X fixed might be too wide.

                            Too wide a gap between 2nd and 3rd for a sporting, freewheeling hub.  As it is, I think that by gearing for 2nd to be the same gear as my SS I'll be just fine with it as a fixed gear. 

                             I have an 8:1 speed ratio on fixed;

                            ??????

                             a measly 1.33:1 ratio does not do much for the steep hills where the multiple gears are desirable.

                            The original T hub was also available with a 12 spline freewheel, which I believe would fit an ASC. So this freewheel option is not new either. I have a pair of 12 spline freewheels; one could be available if anyone cares. I may not have a spare of the deep lockrings required though.

                            Price on the S3X? The 220 pounds is about what I paid for each of the last 2 ASCs I bought.

                            That price seems way out of line.   At least in relation to projected wholesale prices in the US.

                            On the subject of multispeed fixed - I have read about but never seen Bendix 2 speed conversions and Sachs 5 speed to 3 speed fixed conversions. As best as I can tell neither of these conversions had the gear lash issues that most SA conversions had. For me a major joy of fixed is the direct connection of pedal to rear wheel, and even the ASC is more lash than I like; the T is better.

                            Many of the people making the SA conversions did not have the ability to make low play clutches.  
                            Some, such as Lewis Campbell do;
                            http://bikesmithdesign.com/SA/LewisClutch1sm.jpg
                            BTW He does these on manual machines and very slowly. So AFAIK they are not for sale. 

                            Last I heard the guy who designed the part for the Sachs conversions didn't have any and had no plans to make more.  My CNC guys could pump out both the SA and Sachs bits at a reasonable price.  But with the S3X coming out, it doesn't look like an economically viable idea. 

                            demultiplicator relais? I have one, but never found a use for it. I thought it was to convert the shifters for the true linear-pull derailleurs to operate the new-fangled parallelogram style (back around 1950 or whenever that transition happened).

                            It's great for using a Huret or early Shimano RD with their strong springs with SunTour BarCons which were designed for use with the lightly sprung SunTour RDs.  If you set the friction tighter on the BarCons they don't move smoothly. 

                            Mark Stonich;
                              BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
                                5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
                                     Ph. (612) 824-2372  http://bikesmithdesign.com
                                                 http://mnhpva.org

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