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Re: [GarminGPSMAP60C_60CS] A different slant on the 'fading out' problem

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  • Amir Findling
    I had my 60CSx shut down while downloading tracks to my PC. It was powered by USB and had a good set of batteries in it, nevertheless three times in a row it
    Message 1 of 13 , May 1, 2006
      I had my 60CSx shut down while downloading tracks to my PC. It was
      powered by USB and had a good set of batteries in it, nevertheless three
      times in a row it crapped out. Now I was using Maptech which is not
      really happy with the 60CSx so it could also be part or all of this
      phenomenon. I had no trouble downloading the tracks/waypoints with
      G7towin though.

      Has anybody seen the fade problem while on USB power or on external power?

      *Amir Findling*, 73 de K9CHP, Syracuse NY, member ARRL, AMSAT #36083

      Coordinator, Senior K9 Handler Western New York SearchDogs, Inc
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      GSV Three Minds in a Can wrote:
      > Bitstring <cf1149980604301357v76db5fa2k5a1e61ac40426160@...>,
      > from the wonderful person Mark Dundon <mark.dundon@...> said
      > >Thanks I didn't know about the diagnostics page. Interestingly
      > there's no
      > >'data abort' entries. Looking in the shutdown tab I see 4 "RTL Trap"
      > >entries. I also see an "Abnormal Powerdown" entry. I may have had
      > another
      > >shutdown - I can't remember ...
      > >
      > >Mark
      >
      > Ah well, that's different tot he ones I'm seeing then. At least it'll
      > give you something more definite that you can report to Garmin, by way
      > of 'what went wrong'.
      >
      > --
      > GSV Three Minds in a Can
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    • Robert Lipe
      ... While developing the USB support for the X models, I found there are a variety of things you can do on the USB wire that will throw the 60CSx into a frenzy
      Message 2 of 13 , May 1, 2006
        On 5/1/06, Amir Findling <sarlabs@...> wrote:

        times in a row it crapped out. Now I was using Maptech which is not
        really happy with the 60CSx so it could also be part or all of this
        phenomenon. I had no trouble downloading the tracks/waypoints with
        G7towin though.

        Has anybody seen the fade problem while on USB power or on external power?

        While developing the USB support for the X models, I found there are a variety of things you can do on the USB wire that will throw the 60CSx into a frenzy and make unit crash with the most visible and immediate result being the screen fading to grey.

        Yeah, in fantasy land I'd like the unit to not reset when the host code does something it doen't like.  You're free to pick whether to ask Garmin to robustify their firmware for this case or getting Maptech to investigate will be esier.
      • Mark Dundon
        Interesting. When My 60csx was calculating routes I had it powered off of the USB cable in to the car s cigarette socket.
        Message 3 of 13 , May 2, 2006
          Interesting.  When My 60csx was calculating routes I had it powered off of the USB cable in to the car's cigarette socket.
           

           
          On 01/05/06, Robert Lipe <robertlipe@...> wrote:


          On 5/1/06, Amir Findling <sarlabs@... > wrote:

          times in a row it crapped out. Now I was using Maptech which is not
          really happy with the 60CSx so it could also be part or all of this
          phenomenon. I had no trouble downloading the tracks/waypoints with
          G7towin though.

          Has anybody seen the fade problem while on USB power or on external power?

          While developing the USB support for the X models, I found there are a variety of things you can do on the USB wire that will throw the 60CSx into a frenzy and make unit crash with the most visible and immediate result being the screen fading to grey.

          Yeah, in fantasy land I'd like the unit to not reset when the host code does something it doen't like.  You're free to pick whether to ask Garmin to robustify their firmware for this case or getting Maptech to investigate will be esier.



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        • GSV Three Minds in a Can
          Bitstring , from the wonderful person Mark Dundon said ... Not a
          Message 4 of 13 , May 2, 2006
            Bitstring <cf1149980605020013k3e694c01q1703344f0f1bbb0c@...>,
            from the wonderful person Mark Dundon <mark.dundon@...> said
            >Interesting. When My 60csx was calculating routes I had it powered off of
            >the USB cable in to the car's cigarette socket.
            <snip>

            Not a factor, it is the crash which causes it to 'fade to grey'. If you
            open the diagnostics page (trip computer page, up, right, down, left)
            you will see a list of the most recent crashes. Mine tend to be 'data
            abort' but there are also a couple of other options people have
            reported. Would be interesting to know what the unit dies from if you
            send it 'bad' USB commands. However USB power isn't going to do that ..
            it's what the unit's firmware was doing at the time. Clearly it's got
            lots of bugs, and clearly the programmers have decided that the default
            behaviour when the firmware detects a screwup is 'crash and burn'.
            --
            GSV Three Minds in a Can
            Google may be your friend, but groups.google.com posters definitely aren't.
          • Robert Lipe
            ... Looking at the logs in my 60CSX used for development, RTL Trap appears to dominate it. ... Rarely is that a conscious choice. It s more a case of
            Message 5 of 13 , May 2, 2006
              On 5/2/06, GSV Three Minds in a Can <GSV@...> wrote:
              Would be interesting to know what the unit dies from if you
              send it 'bad' USB commands.

              Looking at the logs in my 60CSX used for development, "RTL Trap"  appears to dominate it.


              lots of bugs, and clearly the programmers have decided that the default
              behaviour when the firmware detects a screwup is 'crash and burn'.

              Rarely is that a conscious choice.  It's more a case of failing to detect and handle every conceivable thing you may ever see on the wire.  For example, if the protocol document says "do a, then b, then c" and a third party programmer happens to do B twice, there probably wasn't an item in the firmware development spec to safeguard against that.

              Before anyone cried "If I were a programmer, I'd do it", there's a difference between due dilligence and handling every wacky sequence of malformed packets you might ever possibly see on the wire.   For some classes of devices, the latter makes sense.  For something like this where the world's population of developers for Garmin/USB support can probably be counted on fingers and toes, treating it as a "doctor, doctor" problem isn't the worst possible strategy.

              I mean, even if I were to send them a reproducible packet trace from a broken version of GPSBabel that flatlined the unit, I wouldn't exactly expect a firmware change for it.

              In every case I've observed this I've been doing something naughty as a developer - intentionally or otherwise.  I mentioned it only in case it helps the Maptech guys.

            • GSV Three Minds in a Can
              Bitstring , from the wonderful person Robert Lipe said ... Yep, but what I
              Message 6 of 13 , May 2, 2006
                Bitstring <82a839a50605020841i2131a0c1q27ae9dbe2fcb9d4b@...>,
                from the wonderful person Robert Lipe <robertlipe@...> said
                >On 5/2/06, GSV Three Minds in a Can <GSV@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> Would be interesting to know what the unit dies from if you
                >> send it 'bad' USB commands.
                >
                >
                >Looking at the logs in my 60CSX used for development, "RTL Trap" appears to
                >dominate it.
                >
                >
                >> lots of bugs, and clearly the programmers have decided that the default
                >> behaviour when the firmware detects a screwup is 'crash and burn'.
                >>
                >
                >Rarely is that a conscious choice. It's more a case of failing to detect
                >and handle every conceivable thing you may ever see on the wire. For
                >example, if the protocol document says "do a, then b, then c" and a third
                >party programmer happens to do B twice, there probably wasn't an item in the
                >firmware development spec to safeguard against that.
                >
                >Before anyone cried "If I were a programmer, I'd do it", there's a
                >difference between due dilligence and handling every wacky sequence of
                >malformed packets you might ever possibly see on the wire.

                Yep, but what I was suggesting was that the appropriate response to 'RTL
                Trap' or 'Data Abort' might more properly be to restart the unit
                (presumably it is capable of that - pretend the power button has been
                pressed twice - it's already pretending it was pressed once!). That way
                the user might not ever be disturbed by the flakiness (until/unless they
                observed that the tracklog was not continuous).


                --
                GSV Three Minds in a Can
                Google may be your friend, but groups.google.com posters definitely aren't.
              • Henry Marston
                I can confirm the fading problem during recalculation as well as on the altitude page. Recalculation occurred when I refused to take a longer route, despite
                Message 7 of 13 , May 2, 2006
                  I can confirm the fading problem during recalculation as well as on the altitude page.  Recalculation occurred when I refused to take a longer route, despite selecting "shortest route" option. 
                  I'm not too surprised that the unit crashes on the altitude page as there is clearly a software error producing spurious values and unexpected results (climb less than difference between starting point and summit).  Garmin suggest I send the unit back, but I guess this is one problem (having been reported) that could be resolved in a software update (we live in hope). 
                  But on the positive side the GPSMAP 60CSx ran for a 5 hour walk and then a 5 hour drive with backlight at low setting on one set of NiMH batteries (2500 mAh), with sensors on. 
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 7:52 PM
                  Subject: [GarminGPSMAP60C_60CS] A different slant on the 'fading out' problem - calculating a route

                  I was out in the mountains this last w/e, the first opportunity I've had to really test my 60csx since I bought it a couple months ago.  Whilst driving to the mountains I used the GPS for road directions.  I experienced the 'fade out' issues that have been described here but not when viewing the altimeter screen, but when a route is being calculated.  I select a waypoint, select go to, and it is during the route calculation the fade out occurred.  This happened a four times consecutively on one day.
                   
                  I was using GB Topo v2 for the route calculation.
                • Budianto Iskandar
                  I have just received my 60CSx with firmware 2.62 beta installed. I noticed that the satellite signal fluctuates a lot and the accuracy also jump around form 6
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 2, 2006
                    I have just received my 60CSx with firmware 2.62 beta installed. I noticed that the satellite signal fluctuates a lot and the accuracy also jump around form 6 to 20-30 meter even with 7 satellites locks up with .  Compare with a GPS 10 reception at the same site and same time, the accuracy was around 5-6 meter.
                     
                    Just for my curiosity, I downgraded the firmware back to 2.60. Now the accuracy was really stable at around 4-6 meter with 7 or more satellites locks up.
                     
                    Can anybody confirm whether the beta firmware has this kind of bug ? Or could it be related to hardware problem with my unit ?
                     
                    Thanks,
                     
                    Budianto
                     
                  • w7ox
                    ... I always assume beta versions might have bugs .. else they would not be betas. After some early experimentation, I ve stopped using Garmin beta versions.
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 3, 2006
                      > Can anybody confirm whether the beta firmware has this kind of bug ? Or
                      > could it be related to hardware problem with my unit ?
                      >

                      I always assume beta versions might have bugs .. else they would not be betas.

                      After some early experimentation, I've stopped using Garmin beta versions.

                      Phil
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