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Re: Pro-life / Pro-choice and Baptism

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  • Laurence
    / Pro-Life advocates need to insist that fetuses be baptized, no? They believe that life begins at conception.
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 4 8:43 AM
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      /

      Pro-Life advocates need to insist that fetuses be baptized, no? They believe that life begins at conception.

      http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab2/when-does-life-begin


      http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/4602/what-is-the-biblical-basis-for-the-belief-that-life-begins-at-conception


      http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091123033718AAj0tG1


      http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-328369.html

      _____

      Lavrentiy





      --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Original Sin and Limbo:
      >
      > The Limbo of Infants (Latin limbus infantium or limbus puerorum) is a hypothesis about the permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, too young to have committed personal sins, but not having been freed from original sin.
      >
      >
      > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm
      >
      >
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo
      >
      >
      > Where Do Unbaptized Babies Go When They Die?
      >
      >
      > http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2012/06/where-do-unbaptized-babies-go-when-they.html
      >
      >
      > /
      >
      >
      > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "olenat14" <hcgc@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Because the fetus has not yet had a chance to sin, so it is still >pure and innocent of all sin. And of course, a Stillborn also has not >yet had a chance to sin. We've got some deep thinkers on this forum! :)
      > >
      > > ********
      > >
      > > Jesus Christ told us about Baptism during his conversation with Nicodemus. This Pharisee had just complimented Jesus. The Savior replied by saying, "No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is begotten from above." To which Nicodemus objected, "How can a man be born again? Can he go back into his mother's womb and be born again?" This was a perfect question to introduce Christ's revealed teaching about Baptism. He said, "I solemnly assure you no one can enter the
      > > kingdom of God without being begotten of water and the Spirit."
      > >
      > > For no less than fifteen verses does Jesus explain the meaning of what He had just told Nicodemus. Underlying Christ's teaching is the fact that Baptism is necessary. So true is this that the Catholic Church recognizes the rite of Baptism practiced by other Christian churches, provided the sacrament is conferred by immersion in water or the pouring or sprinkling of water, while the same person pronounces the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, of
      > > the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
      > >
      > > How necessary is Baptism? It is absolutely necessary to receive Baptism of water or at least of desire, which can be implicit, provided a person believes at least in God and His goodness and is faithful to the graces that God gives him.
      > >
      > > According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "As regards infants who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward infants which caused him to say: `Let the little ones come to me, do not hinder them,' allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for infants who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent infants coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."
      > >
      > >
      > > The above from:
      > >
      > > http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0285.html
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > So the Church's position is that if a fetus dies in the womb that Church entrusts the fetus ( a person) to the "mercy of God".
      > >
      > > ______
      > >
      > > Lavrentiy
      > >
      >
    • Laurence
      So sincere is this concern that theologians at the Sorbonne in the nineteenth century invented a baptismal syringe, wherewith to baptize a fetus in utero in
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 4 3:54 PM
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        So sincere is this concern that theologians at the Sorbonne in the nineteenth century invented a baptismal syringe, wherewith to baptize a fetus in utero in the event of a spontaneous abortion, a miscarriage.

        But this is surely a concern that the Jewish community cannot share, since we have no concept of original sin. We recite daily in our prayers words that come directly from the Talmud: "My God, the soul with which thou hast endowed me is pure." We inherit a pure soul, which becomes contaminated only by our own misdeeds. Thus, early abortion would send a fetus to heaven in a state of pristine purity.


        The Soul of a Fetus

        In Judaism, the question of when "ensoulment" takes place is both unanswerable and irrelevant to the issue of abortion.

        By David Feldman


        http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/Bioethics/Abortion/Fetus_in_Jewish_Law/Soul.shtml



        --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
        >
        > /
        >
        > Pro-Life advocates need to insist that fetuses be baptized, no? They believe that life begins at conception.
        >
        > http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab2/when-does-life-begin
        >
        >
        > http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/4602/what-is-the-biblical-basis-for-the-belief-that-life-begins-at-conception
        >
        >
        > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091123033718AAj0tG1
        >
        >
        > http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-328369.html
        >
        > _____
        >
        > Lavrentiy
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Original Sin and Limbo:
        > >
        > > The Limbo of Infants (Latin limbus infantium or limbus puerorum) is a hypothesis about the permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, too young to have committed personal sins, but not having been freed from original sin.
        > >
        > >
        > > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm
        > >
        > >
        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo
        > >
        > >
        > > Where Do Unbaptized Babies Go When They Die?
        > >
        > >
        > > http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2012/06/where-do-unbaptized-babies-go-when-they.html
        > >
        > >
        > > /
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "olenat14" <hcgc@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Because the fetus has not yet had a chance to sin, so it is still >pure and innocent of all sin. And of course, a Stillborn also has not >yet had a chance to sin. We've got some deep thinkers on this forum! :)
        > > >
        > > > ********
        > > >
        > > > Jesus Christ told us about Baptism during his conversation with Nicodemus. This Pharisee had just complimented Jesus. The Savior replied by saying, "No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is begotten from above." To which Nicodemus objected, "How can a man be born again? Can he go back into his mother's womb and be born again?" This was a perfect question to introduce Christ's revealed teaching about Baptism. He said, "I solemnly assure you no one can enter the
        > > > kingdom of God without being begotten of water and the Spirit."
        > > >
        > > > For no less than fifteen verses does Jesus explain the meaning of what He had just told Nicodemus. Underlying Christ's teaching is the fact that Baptism is necessary. So true is this that the Catholic Church recognizes the rite of Baptism practiced by other Christian churches, provided the sacrament is conferred by immersion in water or the pouring or sprinkling of water, while the same person pronounces the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, of
        > > > the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
        > > >
        > > > How necessary is Baptism? It is absolutely necessary to receive Baptism of water or at least of desire, which can be implicit, provided a person believes at least in God and His goodness and is faithful to the graces that God gives him.
        > > >
        > > > According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "As regards infants who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward infants which caused him to say: `Let the little ones come to me, do not hinder them,' allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for infants who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent infants coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > The above from:
        > > >
        > > > http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0285.html
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > So the Church's position is that if a fetus dies in the womb that Church entrusts the fetus ( a person) to the "mercy of God".
        > > >
        > > > ______
        > > >
        > > > Lavrentiy
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • eric_cigan
        Hello Lavrentiy-- I am a relatively recent addition to this group, and during that time I ve seen that you have made many interesting posts. However, I feel
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 4 6:47 PM
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          Hello Lavrentiy--

          I am a relatively recent addition to this group, and during that time I've seen that you have made many interesting posts. However, I feel obliged to say that I am feeling somewhat uncomfortable with this line of discussion because it is coming very close to a topic on which reasonable people hold radically different views. Also I am concerned that this line is a departure from the main value of this group, which I believe is to help people who are exploring their genealogical and cultural roots.

          Perhaps I'm the only person with this perspective, but I felt that it was important that I express it in case others feel the same way.

          Sincerely

          --Eric

          --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
          >
          > So sincere is this concern that theologians at the Sorbonne in the nineteenth century invented a baptismal syringe, wherewith to baptize a fetus in utero in the event of a spontaneous abortion, a miscarriage.
          >
          > But this is surely a concern that the Jewish community cannot share, since we have no concept of original sin. We recite daily in our prayers words that come directly from the Talmud: "My God, the soul with which thou hast endowed me is pure." We inherit a pure soul, which becomes contaminated only by our own misdeeds. Thus, early abortion would send a fetus to heaven in a state of pristine purity.
          >
          >
          > The Soul of a Fetus
          >
          > In Judaism, the question of when "ensoulment" takes place is both unanswerable and irrelevant to the issue of abortion.
          >
          > By David Feldman
          >
          >
          > http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/Bioethics/Abortion/Fetus_in_Jewish_Law/Soul.shtml
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
          > >
          > > /
          > >
          > > Pro-Life advocates need to insist that fetuses be baptized, no? They believe that life begins at conception.
          > >
          > > http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab2/when-does-life-begin
          > >
          > >
          > > http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/4602/what-is-the-biblical-basis-for-the-belief-that-life-begins-at-conception
          > >
          > >
          > > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091123033718AAj0tG1
          > >
          > >
          > > http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-328369.html
          > >
          > > _____
          > >
          > > Lavrentiy
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Original Sin and Limbo:
          > > >
          > > > The Limbo of Infants (Latin limbus infantium or limbus puerorum) is a hypothesis about the permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, too young to have committed personal sins, but not having been freed from original sin.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Where Do Unbaptized Babies Go When They Die?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2012/06/where-do-unbaptized-babies-go-when-they.html
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > /
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "olenat14" <hcgc@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Because the fetus has not yet had a chance to sin, so it is still >pure and innocent of all sin. And of course, a Stillborn also has not >yet had a chance to sin. We've got some deep thinkers on this forum! :)
          > > > >
          > > > > ********
          > > > >
          > > > > Jesus Christ told us about Baptism during his conversation with Nicodemus. This Pharisee had just complimented Jesus. The Savior replied by saying, "No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is begotten from above." To which Nicodemus objected, "How can a man be born again? Can he go back into his mother's womb and be born again?" This was a perfect question to introduce Christ's revealed teaching about Baptism. He said, "I solemnly assure you no one can enter the
          > > > > kingdom of God without being begotten of water and the Spirit."
          > > > >
          > > > > For no less than fifteen verses does Jesus explain the meaning of what He had just told Nicodemus. Underlying Christ's teaching is the fact that Baptism is necessary. So true is this that the Catholic Church recognizes the rite of Baptism practiced by other Christian churches, provided the sacrament is conferred by immersion in water or the pouring or sprinkling of water, while the same person pronounces the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, of
          > > > > the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
          > > > >
          > > > > How necessary is Baptism? It is absolutely necessary to receive Baptism of water or at least of desire, which can be implicit, provided a person believes at least in God and His goodness and is faithful to the graces that God gives him.
          > > > >
          > > > > According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "As regards infants who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward infants which caused him to say: `Let the little ones come to me, do not hinder them,' allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for infants who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent infants coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > The above from:
          > > > >
          > > > > http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0285.html
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > So the Church's position is that if a fetus dies in the womb that Church entrusts the fetus ( a person) to the "mercy of God".
          > > > >
          > > > > ______
          > > > >
          > > > > Lavrentiy
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • MICHALISZYN
          Agree - this has moved off topic ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 5 7:40 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Agree - this has moved off topic


            >________________________________
            > From: eric_cigan <ecigan@...>
            >To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
            >Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 9:47:02 PM
            >Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Re: Pro-life / Pro-choice and Baptism
            >

            >
            >Hello Lavrentiy--
            >
            >I am a relatively recent addition to this group, and during that time I've seen that you have made many interesting posts. However, I feel obliged to say that I am feeling somewhat uncomfortable with this line of discussion because it is coming very close to a topic on which reasonable people hold radically different views. Also I am concerned that this line is a departure from the main value of this group, which I believe is to help people who are exploring their genealogical and cultural roots.
            >
            >Perhaps I'm the only person with this perspective, but I felt that it was important that I express it in case others feel the same way.
            >
            >Sincerely
            >
            >--Eric
            >
            >--- In mailto:GaliciaPoland-Ukraine%40yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> So sincere is this concern that theologians at the Sorbonne in the nineteenth century invented a baptismal syringe, wherewith to baptize a fetus in utero in the event of a spontaneous abortion, a miscarriage.
            >>
            >> But this is surely a concern that the Jewish community cannot share, since we have no concept of original sin. We recite daily in our prayers words that come directly from the Talmud: "My God, the soul with which thou hast endowed me is pure." We inherit a pure soul, which becomes contaminated only by our own misdeeds. Thus, early abortion would send a fetus to heaven in a state of pristine purity.
            >>
            >>
            >> The Soul of a Fetus
            >>
            >> In Judaism, the question of when "ensoulment" takes place is both unanswerable and irrelevant to the issue of abortion.
            >>
            >> By David Feldman
            >>
            >>
            >> http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/Bioethics/Abortion/Fetus_in_Jewish_Law/Soul.shtml
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> --- In mailto:GaliciaPoland-Ukraine%40yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
            >> >
            >> > /
            >> >
            >> > Pro-Life advocates need to insist that fetuses be baptized, no? They believe that life begins at conception.
            >> >
            >> > http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab2/when-does-life-begin
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/4602/what-is-the-biblical-basis-for-the-belief-that-life-begins-at-conception
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091123033718AAj0tG1
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-328369.html
            >> >
            >> > _____
            >> >
            >> > Lavrentiy
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > --- In mailto:GaliciaPoland-Ukraine%40yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
            >> > >
            >> > >
            >> > > Original Sin and Limbo:
            >> > >
            >> > > The Limbo of Infants (Latin limbus infantium or limbus puerorum) is a hypothesis about the permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, too young to have committed personal sins, but not having been freed from original sin.
            >> > >
            >> > >
            >> > > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm
            >> > >
            >> > >
            >> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo
            >> > >
            >> > >
            >> > > Where Do Unbaptized Babies Go When They Die?
            >> > >
            >> > >
            >> > > http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2012/06/where-do-unbaptized-babies-go-when-they.html
            >> > >
            >> > >
            >> > > /
            >> > >
            >> > >
            >> > > --- In mailto:GaliciaPoland-Ukraine%40yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
            >> > > >
            >> > > >
            >> > > >
            >> > > > --- In mailto:GaliciaPoland-Ukraine%40yahoogroups.com, "olenat14" <hcgc@> wrote:
            >> > > > >
            >> > > > > Because the fetus has not yet had a chance to sin, so it is still >pure and innocent of all sin. And of course, a Stillborn also has not >yet had a chance to sin. We've got some deep thinkers on this forum! :)
            >> > > >
            >> > > > ********
            >> > > >
            >> > > > Jesus Christ told us about Baptism during his conversation with Nicodemus. This Pharisee had just complimented Jesus. The Savior replied by saying, "No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is begotten from above." To which Nicodemus objected, "How can a man be born again? Can he go back into his mother's womb and be born again?" This was a perfect question to introduce Christ's revealed teaching about Baptism. He said, "I solemnly assure you no one can enter the
            >> > > > kingdom of God without being begotten of water and the Spirit."
            >> > > >
            >> > > > For no less than fifteen verses does Jesus explain the meaning of what He had just told Nicodemus. Underlying Christ's teaching is the fact that Baptism is necessary. So true is this that the Catholic Church recognizes the rite of Baptism practiced by other Christian churches, provided the sacrament is conferred by immersion in water or the pouring or sprinkling of water, while the same person pronounces the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, of
            >> > > > the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
            >> > > >
            >> > > > How necessary is Baptism? It is absolutely necessary to receive Baptism of water or at least of desire, which can be implicit, provided a person believes at least in God and His goodness and is faithful to the graces that God gives him.
            >> > > >
            >> > > > According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "As regards infants who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward infants which caused him to say: `Let the little ones come to me, do not hinder them,' allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for infants who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent infants coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."
            >> > > >
            >> > > >
            >> > > > The above from:
            >> > > >
            >> > > > http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0285.html
            >> > > >
            >> > > >
            >> > > >
            >> > > > So the Church's position is that if a fetus dies in the womb that Church entrusts the fetus ( a person) to the "mercy of God".
            >> > > >
            >> > > > ______
            >> > > >
            >> > > > Lavrentiy
            >> > > >
            >> > >
            >> >
            >>
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Laurence
            Hello Eric, The discussion strayed into this line of discussion from a discussion about stillborns (like how do they appear in parish vital statistic books,
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 5 7:52 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello Eric,

              The discussion strayed into "this line of discussion" from a discussion about stillborns (like how do they appear in parish vital statistic books, where are they buried in church cemeteries, etc.).

              I think that the discussion under this thread may help some people understand the differences which exist amongst Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Protestantism and Judaism and why our ancestors were of one confession and not of another confession. For example, my ancestors were compelled to be Greek Catholics in Galicia. In America they returned to the faith of their ancestors - Orthodoxy.

              Thus, I believe that this thread will help some "people who are exploring their genealogical and cultural roots".


              _______

              Lavrentiy


              --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "eric_cigan" <ecigan@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Lavrentiy--
              >
              > I am a relatively recent addition to this group, and during that time I've seen that you have made many interesting posts. However, I feel obliged to say that I am feeling somewhat uncomfortable with this line of discussion because it is coming very close to a topic on which reasonable people hold radically different views. Also I am concerned that this line is a departure from the main value of this group, which I believe is to help people who are exploring their genealogical and cultural roots.
              >
              > Perhaps I'm the only person with this perspective, but I felt that it was important that I express it in case others feel the same way.
              >
              > Sincerely
              >
              > --Eric
              >
              > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
              > >
              > > So sincere is this concern that theologians at the Sorbonne in the nineteenth century invented a baptismal syringe, wherewith to baptize a fetus in utero in the event of a spontaneous abortion, a miscarriage.
              > >
              > > But this is surely a concern that the Jewish community cannot share, since we have no concept of original sin. We recite daily in our prayers words that come directly from the Talmud: "My God, the soul with which thou hast endowed me is pure." We inherit a pure soul, which becomes contaminated only by our own misdeeds. Thus, early abortion would send a fetus to heaven in a state of pristine purity.
              > >
              > >
              > > The Soul of a Fetus
              > >
              > > In Judaism, the question of when "ensoulment" takes place is both unanswerable and irrelevant to the issue of abortion.
              > >
              > > By David Feldman
              > >
              > >
              > > http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/Bioethics/Abortion/Fetus_in_Jewish_Law/Soul.shtml
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > /
              > > >
              > > > Pro-Life advocates need to insist that fetuses be baptized, no? They believe that life begins at conception.
              > > >
              > > > http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab2/when-does-life-begin
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/4602/what-is-the-biblical-basis-for-the-belief-that-life-begins-at-conception
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091123033718AAj0tG1
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-328369.html
              > > >
              > > > _____
              > > >
              > > > Lavrentiy
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Original Sin and Limbo:
              > > > >
              > > > > The Limbo of Infants (Latin limbus infantium or limbus puerorum) is a hypothesis about the permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, too young to have committed personal sins, but not having been freed from original sin.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Where Do Unbaptized Babies Go When They Die?
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2012/06/where-do-unbaptized-babies-go-when-they.html
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > /
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "olenat14" <hcgc@> wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Because the fetus has not yet had a chance to sin, so it is still >pure and innocent of all sin. And of course, a Stillborn also has not >yet had a chance to sin. We've got some deep thinkers on this forum! :)
              > > > > >
              > > > > > ********
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Jesus Christ told us about Baptism during his conversation with Nicodemus. This Pharisee had just complimented Jesus. The Savior replied by saying, "No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is begotten from above." To which Nicodemus objected, "How can a man be born again? Can he go back into his mother's womb and be born again?" This was a perfect question to introduce Christ's revealed teaching about Baptism. He said, "I solemnly assure you no one can enter the
              > > > > > kingdom of God without being begotten of water and the Spirit."
              > > > > >
              > > > > > For no less than fifteen verses does Jesus explain the meaning of what He had just told Nicodemus. Underlying Christ's teaching is the fact that Baptism is necessary. So true is this that the Catholic Church recognizes the rite of Baptism practiced by other Christian churches, provided the sacrament is conferred by immersion in water or the pouring or sprinkling of water, while the same person pronounces the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, of
              > > > > > the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
              > > > > >
              > > > > > How necessary is Baptism? It is absolutely necessary to receive Baptism of water or at least of desire, which can be implicit, provided a person believes at least in God and His goodness and is faithful to the graces that God gives him.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "As regards infants who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward infants which caused him to say: `Let the little ones come to me, do not hinder them,' allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for infants who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent infants coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > The above from:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0285.html
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > So the Church's position is that if a fetus dies in the womb that Church entrusts the fetus ( a person) to the "mercy of God".
              > > > > >
              > > > > > ______
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Lavrentiy
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Laurence
              / Here was the first post in this thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GaliciaPoland-Ukraine/message/43519 There is significant information there about
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 5 8:21 AM
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                /

                Here was the first post in this thread:

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GaliciaPoland-Ukraine/message/43519

                There is significant information there about cultural differences. Understanding your cultural background is important in finding and understanding your family history.

                ______

                Lavrentiy


                --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, MICHALISZYN <michaliszyn@...> wrote:
                >
                > Agree - this has moved off topic
                >
                >
                > >________________________________
                > > From: eric_cigan <ecigan@...>
                > >To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
                > >Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 9:47:02 PM
                > >Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Re: Pro-life / Pro-choice and Baptism
                > >
                > > 
                > >
                > >Hello Lavrentiy--
                > >
                > >I am a relatively recent addition to this group, and during that time I've seen that you have made many interesting posts. However, I feel obliged to say that I am feeling somewhat uncomfortable with this line of discussion because it is coming very close to a topic on which reasonable people hold radically different views. Also I am concerned that this line is a departure from the main value of this group, which I believe is to help people who are exploring their genealogical and cultural roots.
                > >
                > >Perhaps I'm the only person with this perspective, but I felt that it was important that I express it in case others feel the same way.
                > >
                > >Sincerely
                > >
                > >--Eric
                > >
                > >--- In mailto:GaliciaPoland-Ukraine%40yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> So sincere is this concern that theologians at the Sorbonne in the nineteenth century invented a baptismal syringe, wherewith to baptize a fetus in utero in the event of a spontaneous abortion, a miscarriage.
                > >>
                > >> But this is surely a concern that the Jewish community cannot share, since we have no concept of original sin. We recite daily in our prayers words that come directly from the Talmud: "My God, the soul with which thou hast endowed me is pure." We inherit a pure soul, which becomes contaminated only by our own misdeeds. Thus, early abortion would send a fetus to heaven in a state of pristine purity.
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> The Soul of a Fetus
                > >>
                > >> In Judaism, the question of when "ensoulment" takes place is both unanswerable and irrelevant to the issue of abortion.
                > >>
                > >> By David Feldman
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/Bioethics/Abortion/Fetus_in_Jewish_Law/Soul.shtml
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> --- In mailto:GaliciaPoland-Ukraine%40yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                > >> >
                > >> > /
                > >> >
                > >> > Pro-Life advocates need to insist that fetuses be baptized, no? They believe that life begins at conception.
                > >> >
                > >> > http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab2/when-does-life-begin
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> > http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/4602/what-is-the-biblical-basis-for-the-belief-that-life-begins-at-conception
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091123033718AAj0tG1
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> > http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-328369.html
                > >> >
                > >> > _____
                > >> >
                > >> > Lavrentiy
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> > --- In mailto:GaliciaPoland-Ukraine%40yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                > >> > >
                > >> > >
                > >> > > Original Sin and Limbo:
                > >> > >
                > >> > > The Limbo of Infants (Latin limbus infantium or limbus puerorum) is a hypothesis about the permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, too young to have committed personal sins, but not having been freed from original sin.
                > >> > >
                > >> > >
                > >> > > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm
                > >> > >
                > >> > >
                > >> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo
                > >> > >
                > >> > >
                > >> > > Where Do Unbaptized Babies Go When They Die?
                > >> > >
                > >> > >
                > >> > > http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2012/06/where-do-unbaptized-babies-go-when-they.html
                > >> > >
                > >> > >
                > >> > > /
                > >> > >
                > >> > >
                > >> > > --- In mailto:GaliciaPoland-Ukraine%40yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > > --- In mailto:GaliciaPoland-Ukraine%40yahoogroups.com, "olenat14" <hcgc@> wrote:
                > >> > > > >
                > >> > > > > Because the fetus has not yet had a chance to sin, so it is still >pure and innocent of all sin. And of course, a Stillborn also has not >yet had a chance to sin. We've got some deep thinkers on this forum! :)
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > > ********
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > > Jesus Christ told us about Baptism during his conversation with Nicodemus. This Pharisee had just complimented Jesus. The Savior replied by saying, "No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is begotten from above." To which Nicodemus objected, "How can a man be born again? Can he go back into his mother's womb and be born again?" This was a perfect question to introduce Christ's revealed teaching about Baptism. He said, "I solemnly assure you no one can enter the
                > >> > > > kingdom of God without being begotten of water and the Spirit."
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > > For no less than fifteen verses does Jesus explain the meaning of what He had just told Nicodemus. Underlying Christ's teaching is the fact that Baptism is necessary. So true is this that the Catholic Church recognizes the rite of Baptism practiced by other Christian churches, provided the sacrament is conferred by immersion in water or the pouring or sprinkling of water, while the same person pronounces the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, of
                > >> > > > the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > > How necessary is Baptism? It is absolutely necessary to receive Baptism of water or at least of desire, which can be implicit, provided a person believes at least in God and His goodness and is faithful to the graces that God gives him.
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > > According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "As regards infants who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward infants which caused him to say: `Let the little ones come to me, do not hinder them,' allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for infants who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent infants coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > > The above from:
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > > http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0285.html
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > > So the Church's position is that if a fetus dies in the womb that Church entrusts the fetus ( a person) to the "mercy of God".
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > > ______
                > >> > > >
                > >> > > > Lavrentiy
                > >> > > >
                > >> > >
                > >> >
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • cappydick
                I agree that it is straying from the topic. There is inherent bias, as “facts” can be presented/ included/omitted to back up another person’s viewpoint.
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 6 2:35 PM
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                  I agree that it is straying from the topic. There is inherent bias, as “facts” can be presented/ included/omitted to back up another person’s viewpoint.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Laurence
                  ... ********* Since baptismal records are one of the major sources of genealogical information it is helpful to understand the concept of baptism - when it is
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 7 9:06 AM
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                    --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, allens5@... wrote:
                    >
                    > I agree that it is straying from the topic.

                    *********

                    Since baptismal records are one of the major sources of genealogical information it is helpful to understand the concept of baptism - when it is done, when it is not done, how is it done, how is it recorded, where is it recorded, etc.

                    ______

                    Lavrentiy
                  • Laurence
                    / Do Jews sit shiva for a still-born baby? In Jewish law, although the human soul exists before birth, human life begins at birth, that is, at the time when
                    Message 10 of 15 , Apr 8 7:33 AM
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