Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Ugorski Tribe

Expand Messages
  • bacsiknj@aol.com
    In an old encyclopedia I found that there were 4 Carpathian tribes - the Boiki, Lemki, Gutsuli and Ugorski. I can figure out the first three but cannot find
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 1, 2004
      In an old encyclopedia I found that there were 4 Carpathian tribes - the
      Boiki, Lemki, Gutsuli and Ugorski. I can figure out the first three but cannot
      find any more information on the Ugorski ruthenes or Ugorsakya Rus. Does anyone
      know of any other name for these people or anything about them? This
      encyclopedia said that they had a fondness for finery in dress and a love of arms
      (weapons). This article also said that they were a single people divided into
      three political boundaries. They dwelled in remote mountain districts and
      escaped serfdom. They developed among themselves a comparatively high degree of
      well being.

      I'd like to learn more about this group. Please let me know where I can get
      more information on them.

      Maryann


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Laurence Krupnak
      Hello Maryann, ... What is the title of the encyclopedia? ... Uhor skiy is Ukrainian word for Hungarian. Hungary is Uhorshchyna. ... These are the Rusyns and
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 1, 2004
        Hello Maryann,

        You wrote:

        > In an old encyclopedia I found that there were 4 Carpathian tribes



        What is the title of the encyclopedia?




        > - the Boiki, Lemki, Gutsuli and Ugorski.



        Uhor'skiy is Ukrainian word for Hungarian. Hungary is Uhorshchyna.





        > I can figure out the first three but cannot
        > find any more information on the Ugorski ruthenes or Ugorsakya Rus.



        These are the Rusyns and land, respectively, that came under
        Hungarian domination. These are the Rusyns now in northeastern Slovakia
        and Transcarpathian Ukraine.




        > Does anyone
        > know of any other name for these people or anything about them? This
        > encyclopedia said that they had a fondness for finery in dress and a love of arms
        > (weapons).


        Love of Arms (weapons)? I question that characteristic, thus the
        encyclopedia that you are consulting needs to be evaluated.


        > This article also said that they were a single people divided into
        > three political boundaries. They dwelled in remote mountain districts and
        > escaped serfdom. They developed among themselves a comparatively high degree of
        > well being.
        >
        > I'd like to learn more about this group. Please let me know where I can get
        > more information on them.





        There are many excellent books about Rusyns.




        > Maryann


        ______

        Lavrentiy
      • booza banya
        Laurence, wouldnot the Lemkos of today be derived from the lemki tribe?The moutain people could be the HUZULEN I also heard from relatives that there were
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 1, 2004
          Laurence, wouldnot the Lemkos of today be derived from the lemki tribe?The moutain people could be the HUZULEN I also heard from relatives that there were gypsy who would defend themselves rather strongly after procuring one's property.Thomas

          --------------- Original Message Follows ------------------
          From: Lkrupnak@... (Laurence Krupnak)
          Date: 2/1/2004 11:31 AM (Eastern Standard Time)
          To: Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Galicia_Poland-Ukraine] Ugorski Tribe

          Hello Maryann,

          You wrote:

          > In an old encyclopedia I found that there were 4 Carpathian tribes



          What is the title of the encyclopedia?




          > - the Boiki, Lemki, Gutsuli and Ugorski.



          Uhor'skiy is Ukrainian word for Hungarian. Hungary is Uhorshchyna.





          > I can figure out the first three but cannot
          > find any more information on the Ugorski ruthenes or Ugorsakya Rus.



          These are the Rusyns and land, respectively, that came under
          Hungarian domination. These are the Rusyns now in northeastern Slovakia
          and Transcarpathian Ukraine.




          > Does anyone
          > know of any other name for these people or anything about them? This
          > encyclopedia said that they had a fondness for finery in dress and a love of arms
          > (weapons).


          Love of Arms (weapons)? I question that characteristic, thus the
          encyclopedia that you are consulting needs to be evaluated.


          > This article also said that they were a single people divided into
          > three political boundaries. They dwelled in remote mountain districts and
          > escaped serfdom. They developed among themselves a comparatively high degree of
          > well being.
          >
          > I'd like to learn more about this group. Please let me know where I can get
          > more information on them.





          There are many excellent books about Rusyns.




          > Maryann


          ______

          Lavrentiy



          Yahoo! Groups Links

          To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Galicia_Poland-Ukraine/

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          Galicia_Poland-Ukraine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





          Spam getting you down?
          Here's the no hassle solution.
          Includes 100MB storage, POP & SMTP
          Click to learn more: http://www.norada.com/save
        • Laurence Krupnak
          Hello Thomas, ... The term Lemkos is English spelling (it s plural form of Lemko). Lemkos is equivalent to Lemky (plural)/Lemko (singular). The moutain people
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 1, 2004
            Hello Thomas,

            You wrote:


            > Laurence, wouldnot the Lemkos of today be derived from the lemki tribe?



            The term Lemkos is English spelling (it's plural form of Lemko).

            Lemkos is equivalent to Lemky (plural)/Lemko (singular).


            The moutain people could be the HUZULEN



            This is German term for Hutsuls.


            > I also heard from relatives that there were gypsy who would defend themselves rather strongly after procuring one's property.



            Lemkos. Bojkos, Hutsuls, and Uhro-Rusyns were not gypsies.


            I would like to see the encyclopedia entry that indicates that Rusyns
            were warrior-like people ("lovers of arms/weapons).


            _____

            Lavrentiy
          • krupniak
            In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Laurence Krupnak ... *********** http://www.rusyn.org/index.php?root=rusyns&rusyns=ethnography ______ Lavrentiy
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 1, 2004
              In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Laurence Krupnak
              <Lkrupnak@e...> wrote:



              > Lemkos, Bojkos, Hutsuls, and Uhro-Rusyns were not gypsies.



              ***********




              http://www.rusyn.org/index.php?root=rusyns&rusyns=ethnography





              ______

              Lavrentiy
            • John and Gloria
              I really cannot seem to get my mind wrapped around exactly who the people that farmed the lands between a line from say Lvov-Ternopil east to to the Zbruch
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 2, 2004
                I really cannot seem to get my mind wrapped around exactly who the people
                that farmed the lands between a line from say Lvov-Ternopil east to to the
                Zbruch river and south to the Dniester and then south of the Dniester to
                Chernivsi and back west to the Carpathians are in terms of racial origin.
                Having just checked out the rusyns.org web site which is just great, it
                seems their is a racially and socially distinct difference between the
                Rusyns as defined on that web site and those people that occupied the area
                as defined above. My wifes grandmother was from near Kolomyja and called her
                family Hutsuls. They came to Manitoba in 1899. My wifes Grandfather came
                from near Borschiv. Came here in 1911. On my wifes other side her
                grandparents came from a village at the mouth of the Zbruch where it enters
                the Dniester and the 4th grandfather arm is from due east of Ternopil on the
                west bank of the Zbruch. She also has extended family from near Chernivtsi
                in old Bukowina although there are cultural differences with that group.
                Anyway the four other familys all settled here beyween 1898 and 1911, all
                within a mile or so of each other. All intermarried here, all spoke the same
                language, all have the same geneaeral culture, ie xmas traditions, green
                holidays, etc. All are entered on ships manifests as Ruthenians. All are
                Greek (Ukrainian) Catholic.
                Has anybody got a good enough grasp on this "tribal thing to tell me if
                these are Russ or not. Or are they really Ukrainians living in Polish or
                Austrain controlled land from thousands of years (Since there never has been
                a country with defined borders and government in the history of the world
                before 1945 (don't jump on that short period after ww1). Or are they really
                a Ruthenian/Ukrainian/Polish hybrid, the result of thousands of years of
                wandering peoples, wars, invasions , Cossaks and Polish soldiers settling
                down in occupied territory, etc. When I look at the 8 family surnames of my
                wifes family, eventhough they origiate in the villages I mentioned above,
                they all seem more Polish than anyrhing. Full of CZ (Surname Dziedzic)or
                they have direct Polish translations (Surnames Medwid and Kruk).
                I do not know if there is an answer. But I have examined over 400 ships
                manifests of ships arriving in Canada from 1891 to 1914 with people who
                today refer to themselves as Ukrainians , and who before 1920 refered to
                THEMSELVES as Ruthenians while living here in Canada who originate from the
                Carpathians, the Zbruch, both north and south banks of the Dniester ALL of
                whom were referred to as Ruthenians on those ships manifests
                John Laporte
                Beausejour, Mb
                Canada

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "krupniak" <Lkrupnak@...>
                To: <Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:14 PM
                Subject: [Galicia_Poland-Ukraine] Re: Ugorski Tribe


                > In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Laurence Krupnak
                > <Lkrupnak@e...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > > Lemkos, Bojkos, Hutsuls, and Uhro-Rusyns were not gypsies.
                >
                >
                >
                > ***********
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > http://www.rusyn.org/index.php?root=rusyns&rusyns=ethnography
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ______
                >
                > Lavrentiy
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Galicia_Poland-Ukraine/
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > Galicia_Poland-Ukraine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Laurence Krupnak
                Hello John, Since right after WWI, many East Slavs (i.e., non-Poles) in Galicia began to gradually abandoned the historically used term Rusnak/Rusyn and
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 2, 2004
                  Hello John,

                  Since right after WWI, many East Slavs (i.e., non-Poles) in Galicia
                  began to gradually abandoned the historically used term Rusnak/Rusyn and
                  accepted the term Ukrainian. Now, after a century, the descendants of
                  those who accepted the term Ukrainian insist that Ukrainian is the only
                  proper and historically correct term. There are others who had
                  ancestors that never accepted the term Ukrainian. One only has to visit
                  Ukrainian forums like Infoukes and Brama to witness the great divide
                  that occurs in the use of terms to identify ethnicity.

                  Ruthenian is now regarded by both camps as an archaic term to be
                  used only when discussing history.

                  For those members interested Rusyn discussions there is a Rusyn
                  mailing list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rusyns


                  ____

                  Lavrentiy





                  John and Gloria wrote:
                  >
                  > I really cannot seem to get my mind wrapped around exactly who the people
                  > that farmed the lands between a line from say Lvov-Ternopil east to to the
                  > Zbruch river and south to the Dniester and then south of the Dniester to
                  > Chernivsi and back west to the Carpathians are in terms of racial origin.
                  > Having just checked out the rusyns.org web site which is just great, it
                  > seems their is a racially and socially distinct difference between the
                  > Rusyns as defined on that web site and those people that occupied the area
                  > as defined above. My wifes grandmother was from near Kolomyja and called her
                  > family Hutsuls. They came to Manitoba in 1899. My wifes Grandfather came
                  > from near Borschiv. Came here in 1911. On my wifes other side her
                  > grandparents came from a village at the mouth of the Zbruch where it enters
                  > the Dniester and the 4th grandfather arm is from due east of Ternopil on the
                  > west bank of the Zbruch. She also has extended family from near Chernivtsi
                  > in old Bukowina although there are cultural differences with that group.
                  > Anyway the four other familys all settled here beyween 1898 and 1911, all
                  > within a mile or so of each other. All intermarried here, all spoke the same
                  > language, all have the same geneaeral culture, ie xmas traditions, green
                  > holidays, etc. All are entered on ships manifests as Ruthenians. All are
                  > Greek (Ukrainian) Catholic.
                  > Has anybody got a good enough grasp on this "tribal thing to tell me if
                  > these are Russ or not. Or are they really Ukrainians living in Polish or
                  > Austrain controlled land from thousands of years (Since there never has been
                  > a country with defined borders and government in the history of the world
                  > before 1945 (don't jump on that short period after ww1). Or are they really
                  > a Ruthenian/Ukrainian/Polish hybrid, the result of thousands of years of
                  > wandering peoples, wars, invasions , Cossaks and Polish soldiers settling
                  > down in occupied territory, etc. When I look at the 8 family surnames of my
                  > wifes family, eventhough they origiate in the villages I mentioned above,
                  > they all seem more Polish than anyrhing. Full of CZ (Surname Dziedzic)or
                  > they have direct Polish translations (Surnames Medwid and Kruk).
                  > I do not know if there is an answer. But I have examined over 400 ships
                  > manifests of ships arriving in Canada from 1891 to 1914 with people who
                  > today refer to themselves as Ukrainians , and who before 1920 refered to
                  > THEMSELVES as Ruthenians while living here in Canada who originate from the
                  > Carpathians, the Zbruch, both north and south banks of the Dniester ALL of
                  > whom were referred to as Ruthenians on those ships manifests
                  > John Laporte
                  > Beausejour, Mb
                  > Canada
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "krupniak" <Lkrupnak@...>
                  > To: <Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:14 PM
                  > Subject: [Galicia_Poland-Ukraine] Re: Ugorski Tribe
                  >
                  > > In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Laurence Krupnak
                  > > <Lkrupnak@e...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > Lemkos, Bojkos, Hutsuls, and Uhro-Rusyns were not gypsies.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ***********
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > http://www.rusyn.org/index.php?root=rusyns&rusyns=ethnography
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ______
                  > >
                  > > Lavrentiy
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Galicia_Poland-Ukraine/
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > Galicia_Poland-Ukraine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Galicia_Poland-Ukraine/
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > Galicia_Poland-Ukraine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Laurence Krupnak
                  ... Example: The Encyclopedia of Ukraine (University of Toronto Press, 1993) doesn t even have an entry for Rusyn. For Rusyn, the reader is directed to see
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 2, 2004
                    Laurence Krupnak wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello John,
                    >
                    > Since right after WWI, many East Slavs (i.e., non-Poles) in Galicia
                    > began to gradually abandoned the historically used term Rusnak/Rusyn and
                    > accepted the term Ukrainian. Now, after a century, the descendants of
                    > those who accepted the term Ukrainian insist that Ukrainian is the only
                    > proper and historically correct term. There are others who had
                    > ancestors that never accepted the term Ukrainian. One only has to visit
                    > Ukrainian forums like Infoukes and Brama to witness the great divide
                    > that occurs in the use of terms to identify ethnicity.



                    Example:

                    The Encyclopedia of Ukraine (University of Toronto Press, 1993)
                    doesn't even have an entry for Rusyn. For Rusyn, the reader is directed
                    to see the entry on "Ruthenians," which is about one column long.





                    >
                    > Ruthenian is now regarded by both camps as an archaic term to be
                    > used only when discussing history.
                    >
                    > For those members interested Rusyn discussions there is a Rusyn
                    > mailing list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rusyns
                    >
                    > ____
                    >
                    > Lavrentiy
                    >
                    > John and Gloria wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I really cannot seem to get my mind wrapped around exactly who the people
                    > > that farmed the lands between a line from say Lvov-Ternopil east to to the
                    > > Zbruch river and south to the Dniester and then south of the Dniester to
                    > > Chernivsi and back west to the Carpathians are in terms of racial origin.
                    > > Having just checked out the rusyns.org web site which is just great, it
                    > > seems their is a racially and socially distinct difference between the
                    > > Rusyns as defined on that web site and those people that occupied the area
                    > > as defined above. My wifes grandmother was from near Kolomyja and called her
                    > > family Hutsuls. They came to Manitoba in 1899. My wifes Grandfather came
                    > > from near Borschiv. Came here in 1911. On my wifes other side her
                    > > grandparents came from a village at the mouth of the Zbruch where it enters
                    > > the Dniester and the 4th grandfather arm is from due east of Ternopil on the
                    > > west bank of the Zbruch. She also has extended family from near Chernivtsi
                    > > in old Bukowina although there are cultural differences with that group.
                    > > Anyway the four other familys all settled here beyween 1898 and 1911, all
                    > > within a mile or so of each other. All intermarried here, all spoke the same
                    > > language, all have the same geneaeral culture, ie xmas traditions, green
                    > > holidays, etc. All are entered on ships manifests as Ruthenians. All are
                    > > Greek (Ukrainian) Catholic.
                    > > Has anybody got a good enough grasp on this "tribal thing to tell me if
                    > > these are Russ or not. Or are they really Ukrainians living in Polish or
                    > > Austrain controlled land from thousands of years (Since there never has been
                    > > a country with defined borders and government in the history of the world
                    > > before 1945 (don't jump on that short period after ww1). Or are they really
                    > > a Ruthenian/Ukrainian/Polish hybrid, the result of thousands of years of
                    > > wandering peoples, wars, invasions , Cossaks and Polish soldiers settling
                    > > down in occupied territory, etc. When I look at the 8 family surnames of my
                    > > wifes family, eventhough they origiate in the villages I mentioned above,
                    > > they all seem more Polish than anyrhing. Full of CZ (Surname Dziedzic)or
                    > > they have direct Polish translations (Surnames Medwid and Kruk).
                    > > I do not know if there is an answer. But I have examined over 400 ships
                    > > manifests of ships arriving in Canada from 1891 to 1914 with people who
                    > > today refer to themselves as Ukrainians , and who before 1920 refered to
                    > > THEMSELVES as Ruthenians while living here in Canada who originate from the
                    > > Carpathians, the Zbruch, both north and south banks of the Dniester ALL of
                    > > whom were referred to as Ruthenians on those ships manifests
                    > > John Laporte
                    > > Beausejour, Mb
                    > > Canada
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "krupniak" <Lkrupnak@...>
                    > > To: <Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:14 PM
                    > > Subject: [Galicia_Poland-Ukraine] Re: Ugorski Tribe
                    > >
                    > > > In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Laurence Krupnak
                    > > > <Lkrupnak@e...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > > Lemkos, Bojkos, Hutsuls, and Uhro-Rusyns were not gypsies.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ***********
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > http://www.rusyn.org/index.php?root=rusyns&rusyns=ethnography
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ______
                    > > >
                    > > > Lavrentiy
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Galicia_Poland-Ukraine/
                    > > >
                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > Galicia_Poland-Ukraine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                    > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Galicia_Poland-Ukraine/
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > Galicia_Poland-Ukraine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Galicia_Poland-Ukraine/
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > Galicia_Poland-Ukraine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Laurence Krupnak
                    RE: Rusyns Professor Orest Subtelny provides in his _Ukraine, A History (Second Edition)_ the following: In the late 19th and early 20th century, nationally
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 2, 2004
                      RE: Rusyns



                      Professor Orest Subtelny provides in his _Ukraine, A History (Second
                      Edition)_ the following:


                      In the late 19th and early 20th century, nationally
                      conscious West Ukrainians began to call themselves
                      'Ukrainians,' a national name that had been adopted
                      by the Ukrainian intelligentsia in the east. There
                      were two basic reasons for abandoning the traditional
                      designation, Rusyn (Ruthenian): it was felt that Rusyn
                      was too similar to Ruskyi (Russian) and, by adopting
                      the name used by their compatriots in the Russian
                      Empire, the West Ukrainians wished to stress their
                      unity with them. p. 307.


                      On page 69, Subtelny wrote:

                      During the Polish-Lithuanian period, Ukrainians called
                      themselves Ruthenians (Rusyny), a name derived from Rus'.
                      Belorussians were also called by this name. At this time,
                      Russians were generally called Moscovites.





                      Laurence Krupnak wrote:
                      >
                      > Laurence Krupnak wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello John,
                      > >
                      > > Since right after WWI, many East Slavs (i.e., non-Poles) in Galicia
                      > > began to gradually abandoned the historically used term Rusnak/Rusyn and
                      > > accepted the term Ukrainian. Now, after a century, the descendants of
                      > > those who accepted the term Ukrainian insist that Ukrainian is the only
                      > > proper and historically correct term. There are others who had
                      > > ancestors that never accepted the term Ukrainian. One only has to visit
                      > > Ukrainian forums like Infoukes and Brama to witness the great divide
                      > > that occurs in the use of terms to identify ethnicity.
                      >
                      > Example:
                      >
                      > The Encyclopedia of Ukraine (University of Toronto Press, 1993)
                      > doesn't even have an entry for Rusyn. For Rusyn, the reader is directed
                      > to see the entry on "Ruthenians," which is about one column long.
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Ruthenian is now regarded by both camps as an archaic term to be
                      > > used only when discussing history.
                      > >
                      > > For those members interested Rusyn discussions there is a Rusyn
                      > > mailing list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rusyns
                      > >
                      > > ____
                      > >
                      > > Lavrentiy
                      > >
                      > > John and Gloria wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I really cannot seem to get my mind wrapped around exactly who the people
                      > > > that farmed the lands between a line from say Lvov-Ternopil east to to the
                      > > > Zbruch river and south to the Dniester and then south of the Dniester to
                      > > > Chernivsi and back west to the Carpathians are in terms of racial origin.
                      > > > Having just checked out the rusyns.org web site which is just great, it
                      > > > seems their is a racially and socially distinct difference between the
                      > > > Rusyns as defined on that web site and those people that occupied the area
                      > > > as defined above. My wifes grandmother was from near Kolomyja and called her
                      > > > family Hutsuls. They came to Manitoba in 1899. My wifes Grandfather came
                      > > > from near Borschiv. Came here in 1911. On my wifes other side her
                      > > > grandparents came from a village at the mouth of the Zbruch where it enters
                      > > > the Dniester and the 4th grandfather arm is from due east of Ternopil on the
                      > > > west bank of the Zbruch. She also has extended family from near Chernivtsi
                      > > > in old Bukowina although there are cultural differences with that group.
                      > > > Anyway the four other familys all settled here beyween 1898 and 1911, all
                      > > > within a mile or so of each other. All intermarried here, all spoke the same
                      > > > language, all have the same geneaeral culture, ie xmas traditions, green
                      > > > holidays, etc. All are entered on ships manifests as Ruthenians. All are
                      > > > Greek (Ukrainian) Catholic.
                      > > > Has anybody got a good enough grasp on this "tribal thing to tell me if
                      > > > these are Russ or not. Or are they really Ukrainians living in Polish or
                      > > > Austrain controlled land from thousands of years (Since there never has been
                      > > > a country with defined borders and government in the history of the world
                      > > > before 1945 (don't jump on that short period after ww1). Or are they really
                      > > > a Ruthenian/Ukrainian/Polish hybrid, the result of thousands of years of
                      > > > wandering peoples, wars, invasions , Cossaks and Polish soldiers settling
                      > > > down in occupied territory, etc. When I look at the 8 family surnames of my
                      > > > wifes family, eventhough they origiate in the villages I mentioned above,
                      > > > they all seem more Polish than anyrhing. Full of CZ (Surname Dziedzic)or
                      > > > they have direct Polish translations (Surnames Medwid and Kruk).
                      > > > I do not know if there is an answer. But I have examined over 400 ships
                      > > > manifests of ships arriving in Canada from 1891 to 1914 with people who
                      > > > today refer to themselves as Ukrainians , and who before 1920 refered to
                      > > > THEMSELVES as Ruthenians while living here in Canada who originate from the
                      > > > Carpathians, the Zbruch, both north and south banks of the Dniester ALL of
                      > > > whom were referred to as Ruthenians on those ships manifests
                      > > > John Laporte
                      > > > Beausejour, Mb
                      > > > Canada
                      > > >
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: "krupniak" <Lkrupnak@...>
                      > > > To: <Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:14 PM
                      > > > Subject: [Galicia_Poland-Ukraine] Re: Ugorski Tribe
                      > > >
                      > > > > In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Laurence Krupnak
                      > > > > <Lkrupnak@e...> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > Lemkos, Bojkos, Hutsuls, and Uhro-Rusyns were not gypsies.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ***********
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > http://www.rusyn.org/index.php?root=rusyns&rusyns=ethnography
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ______
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Lavrentiy
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.