Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

What Did The Priest Erase?

Expand Messages
  • Laurence
    / Three images of Mathias Pelesz s birth registration are in folder called Mathias Pelesz : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GaliciaPoland-Ukraine/files/
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 4, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      /

      Three images of Mathias Pelesz's birth registration are in folder called "Mathias Pelesz":


      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GaliciaPoland-Ukraine/files/



      Mathias' mother is Maria. The priest wrote something about Maria and then erased that information. Can anybody decipher what the priest erased? It is my opinion that the priest or somebody erased the information because it does not appear to me that water accidentally fell on that text.

      __________

      Lavrentiy
    • Laurence
      / Yahoo Groups had problem most of today. Files section is now available. __________ Lavrentiy
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 4, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        /


        Yahoo Groups had problem most of today. Files section is now available.

        __________

        Lavrentiy






        --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
        >
        > /
        >
        > Three images of Mathias Pelesz's birth registration are in folder called "Mathias Pelesz":
        >
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GaliciaPoland-Ukraine/files/
        >
        >
        >
        > Mathias' mother is Maria. The priest wrote something about Maria and then erased that information. Can anybody decipher what the priest erased? It is my opinion that the priest or somebody erased the information because it does not appear to me that water accidentally fell on that text.
        >
        > __________
        >
        > Lavrentiy
        >
      • Chris Smolinski
        I could make out the Latin word uxor, I believe the second of three words, but that was all. Do previous or subsequent records for this couple shed any light?
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 4, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          I could make out the Latin word uxor, I believe the second of three words, but that was all.

          Do previous or subsequent records for this couple shed any light?

          On Jan 4, 2011, at 5:24 PM, Laurence wrote:

          > /
          >
          >
          > Yahoo Groups had problem most of today. Files section is now available.
          >
          > __________
          >
          > Lavrentiy
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> /
          >>
          >> Three images of Mathias Pelesz's birth registration are in folder called "Mathias Pelesz":
          >>
          >>
          >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GaliciaPoland-Ukraine/files/
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Mathias' mother is Maria. The priest wrote something about Maria and then erased that information. Can anybody decipher what the priest erased? It is my opinion that the priest or somebody erased the information because it does not appear to me that water accidentally fell on that text.
          >>
          >> __________
          >>
          >> Lavrentiy
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >

          Chris Smolinski
          Black Cat Systems
          http://www.blackcatsystems.com
        • Laurence
          Chris, in the birth records of Mathias grandchildren, sometimes Mathias surname is given as Pelesz and sometimes Olenicz. Note that Mathias mother, Maria
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 4, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Chris, in the birth records of Mathias' grandchildren, sometimes Mathias' surname is given as Pelesz and sometimes Olenicz. Note that Mathias' mother, Maria was an Olenicz widow. My postulation is that Olenicz was Mathias' biological father and that Daniel Pelesz is his step-father. The priest registered Daniel as Mathias' father.

            I'm trying to find when Maria's first husband died. The problem is that I have not found it yet, nor Maria's marriage to Olenicz because unfortunately the records don't go back far enough.

            The birth records of Mathias' siblings give Maria's family name.


            I assume that in "town" everybody knew that Mathias was an Olenicz boy and that Pelesz was his step-father.

            Would the priest record an untruth?

            ________

            Lavrentiy



            --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Chris Smolinski <csmolinski@...> wrote:
            >
            > I could make out the Latin word uxor, I believe the second of three words, but that was all.
            >
            > Do previous or subsequent records for this couple shed any light?
            >
            > On Jan 4, 2011, at 5:24 PM, Laurence wrote:
            >
            > > /
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo Groups had problem most of today. Files section is now available.
            > >
            > > __________
            > >
            > > Lavrentiy
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
            > >>
            > >> /
            > >>
            > >> Three images of Mathias Pelesz's birth registration are in folder called "Mathias Pelesz":
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GaliciaPoland-Ukraine/files/
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> Mathias' mother is Maria. The priest wrote something about Maria and then erased that information. Can anybody decipher what the priest erased? It is my opinion that the priest or somebody erased the information because it does not appear to me that water accidentally fell on that text.
            > >>
            > >> __________
            > >>
            > >> Lavrentiy
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > Chris Smolinski
            > Black Cat Systems
            > http://www.blackcatsystems.com
            >
          • Roman
            Larry, The scribe erased that entry because it was written in the wrong column! See the entry for the second witness. Cheers, Roman
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 4, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Larry,

              The scribe erased that entry because it was written in the wrong column!
              See the entry for the second witness.

              Cheers,

              Roman

              On 1/4/2011 6:04 PM, Laurence wrote:
              >
              >
              > Chris, in the birth records of Mathias' grandchildren, sometimes
              > Mathias' surname is given as Pelesz and sometimes Olenicz. Note that
              > Mathias' mother, Maria was an Olenicz widow. My postulation is that
              > Olenicz was Mathias' biological father and that Daniel Pelesz is his
              > step-father. The priest registered Daniel as Mathias' father.
              >
              > I'm trying to find when Maria's first husband died. The problem is that
              > I have not found it yet, nor Maria's marriage to Olenicz because
              > unfortunately the records don't go back far enough.
              >
              > The birth records of Mathias' siblings give Maria's family name.
              >
              > I assume that in "town" everybody knew that Mathias was an Olenicz boy
              > and that Pelesz was his step-father.
              >
              > Would the priest record an untruth?
              >
              > ________
              >
              > Lavrentiy
              >
              > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:GaliciaPoland-Ukraine%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Smolinski
              > <csmolinski@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> I could make out the Latin word uxor, I believe the second of three
              > words, but that was all.
              >>
              >> Do previous or subsequent records for this couple shed any light?
              >>
              >> On Jan 4, 2011, at 5:24 PM, Laurence wrote:
              >>
              >> > /
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > Yahoo Groups had problem most of today. Files section is now available.
              >> >
              >> > __________
              >> >
              >> > Lavrentiy
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:GaliciaPoland-Ukraine%40yahoogroups.com>, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@>
              > wrote:
              >> >>
              >> >> /
              >> >>
              >> >> Three images of Mathias Pelesz's birth registration are in folder
              > called "Mathias Pelesz":
              >> >>
              >> >>
              >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GaliciaPoland-Ukraine/files/
              >> >>
              >> >>
              >> >>
              >> >> Mathias' mother is Maria. The priest wrote something about Maria
              > and then erased that information. Can anybody decipher what the priest
              > erased? It is my opinion that the priest or somebody erased the
              > information because it does not appear to me that water accidentally
              > fell on that text.
              >> >>
              >> >> __________
              >> >>
              >> >> Lavrentiy
              >> >>
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > ------------------------------------
              >> >
              >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >>
              >> Chris Smolinski
              >> Black Cat Systems
              >> http://www.blackcatsystems.com
              >>
              >
              >
            • Kaytee
              Lavrenity, I do not believe the priest recorded an untruth as the record shows Mathias to be illegitimate. Your images are too light to read, can you send an
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 4, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Lavrenity, I do not believe the priest recorded an untruth as the record shows Mathias to be illegitimate. Your images are too light to read, can you send an image to my email so that I could play with it to see if I can uncover the writting?

                kaytee@...

                Kaytee

                --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
                >
                > Chris, in the birth records of Mathias' grandchildren, sometimes Mathias' surname is given as Pelesz and sometimes Olenicz. Note that Mathias' mother, Maria was an Olenicz widow. My postulation is that Olenicz was Mathias' biological father and that Daniel Pelesz is his step-father. The priest registered Daniel as Mathias' father.
                >
                > I'm trying to find when Maria's first husband died. The problem is that I have not found it yet, nor Maria's marriage to Olenicz because unfortunately the records don't go back far enough.
                >
                > The birth records of Mathias' siblings give Maria's family name.
                >
                >
                > I assume that in "town" everybody knew that Mathias was an Olenicz boy and that Pelesz was his step-father.
                >
                > Would the priest record an untruth?
                >
                > ________
                >
                > Lavrentiy
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Chris Smolinski <csmolinski@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I could make out the Latin word uxor, I believe the second of three words, but that was all.
                > >
                > > Do previous or subsequent records for this couple shed any light?
                > >
                > > On Jan 4, 2011, at 5:24 PM, Laurence wrote:
                > >
                > > > /
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Yahoo Groups had problem most of today. Files section is now available.
                > > >
                > > > __________
                > > >
                > > > Lavrentiy
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                > > >>
                > > >> /
                > > >>
                > > >> Three images of Mathias Pelesz's birth registration are in folder called "Mathias Pelesz":
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GaliciaPoland-Ukraine/files/
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >> Mathias' mother is Maria. The priest wrote something about Maria and then erased that information. Can anybody decipher what the priest erased? It is my opinion that the priest or somebody erased the information because it does not appear to me that water accidentally fell on that text.
                > > >>
                > > >> __________
                > > >>
                > > >> Lavrentiy
                > > >>
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ------------------------------------
                > > >
                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > Chris Smolinski
                > > Black Cat Systems
                > > http://www.blackcatsystems.com
                > >
                >
              • Kaytee
                Sorry Lavy, on second sight the column is clealy marked Legitimate. Perhaps it was erased because he was Legitimate, and if you have proof otherwise then
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 4, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sorry Lavy, on second sight the column is clealy marked Legitimate. Perhaps it was erased because he was Legitimate, and if you have proof otherwise then perhaps the priest covered it up. Have you considered that perhaps she was a widow, got pregnant with the new guy then married the new guy right before the baby was born so he would be legitimate?

                  Kaytee
                • Laurence
                  Roman, You have a very good eye!!!! Is now see that too. OK....so the priest or somebody was not trying to expunge some information. My research still needs
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 5, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Roman,

                    You have a very good eye!!!! Is now see that too.

                    OK....so the priest or somebody was not trying to expunge some information.

                    My research still needs to continue. I need to find out when did Maria become a widow to see if Mathias could possibly be an Olenicz boy. I need to also find Maria's first marriage record. But, I think she was married to Olenicz in another place.

                    I found the Maria - Daniel Pelesz marriage but have not yet scanned it.

                    The research continues.

                    BTW, how did they erase ink back then? There were no erasers!!! What kind of abrasive material would have been used - maybe leather? In other cases when I see an error was made the priest simply drew a line through the error.

                    __________

                    Lavrentiy




                    --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Roman <romankal@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Larry,
                    >
                    > The scribe erased that entry because it was written in the wrong column!
                    > See the entry for the second witness.
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    >
                    > Roman
                    >
                    > On 1/4/2011 6:04 PM, Laurence wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Chris, in the birth records of Mathias' grandchildren, sometimes
                    > > Mathias' surname is given as Pelesz and sometimes Olenicz. Note that
                    > > Mathias' mother, Maria was an Olenicz widow. My postulation is that
                    > > Olenicz was Mathias' biological father and that Daniel Pelesz is his
                    > > step-father. The priest registered Daniel as Mathias' father.
                    > >
                    > > I'm trying to find when Maria's first husband died. The problem is that
                    > > I have not found it yet, nor Maria's marriage to Olenicz because
                    > > unfortunately the records don't go back far enough.
                    > >
                    > > The birth records of Mathias' siblings give Maria's family name.
                    > >
                    > > I assume that in "town" everybody knew that Mathias was an Olenicz boy
                    > > and that Pelesz was his step-father.
                    > >
                    > > Would the priest record an untruth?
                    > >
                    > > ________
                    > >
                    > > Lavrentiy
                    > >
                    > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
                    > > <mailto:GaliciaPoland-Ukraine%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris Smolinski
                    > > <csmolinski@> wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> I could make out the Latin word uxor, I believe the second of three
                    > > words, but that was all.
                    > >>
                    > >> Do previous or subsequent records for this couple shed any light?
                    > >>
                    > >> On Jan 4, 2011, at 5:24 PM, Laurence wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> > /
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> > Yahoo Groups had problem most of today. Files section is now available.
                    > >> >
                    > >> > __________
                    > >> >
                    > >> > Lavrentiy
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
                    > > <mailto:GaliciaPoland-Ukraine%40yahoogroups.com>, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> /
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> Three images of Mathias Pelesz's birth registration are in folder
                    > > called "Mathias Pelesz":
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GaliciaPoland-Ukraine/files/
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> Mathias' mother is Maria. The priest wrote something about Maria
                    > > and then erased that information. Can anybody decipher what the priest
                    > > erased? It is my opinion that the priest or somebody erased the
                    > > information because it does not appear to me that water accidentally
                    > > fell on that text.
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> __________
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> Lavrentiy
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> > ------------------------------------
                    > >> >
                    > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >> Chris Smolinski
                    > >> Black Cat Systems
                    > >> http://www.blackcatsystems.com
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Laurence
                    Kaytee, You wrote: she was a widow, got pregnant with the new guy then married the new guy right before the baby was born so he would be legitimate? That is
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 5, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Kaytee,

                      You wrote:

                      "she was a widow, got pregnant with the new guy then married the new guy right before the baby was born so he would be legitimate?"

                      That is one scenario. Thanks for that possibility.

                      The postulation that I was working with is that Maria and Olenicz, her first husband, conceived Mathias, then Olenicz died, and she then married Daniel Pelesz.

                      __________

                      Lavrentiy







                      --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Kaytee" <kaytee@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Sorry Lavy, on second sight the column is clealy marked Legitimate. Perhaps it was erased because he was Legitimate, and if you have proof otherwise then perhaps the priest covered it up. Have you considered that perhaps she was a widow, got pregnant with the new guy then married the new guy right before the baby was born so he would be legitimate?
                      >
                      > Kaytee
                      >
                    • Laurence
                      Kaytee, I need to resolve the issue that on some of birth records of Mathias grandchildren the priest wrote that Mathias surname was Pelesz on some records
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 5, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Kaytee,

                        I need to resolve the issue that on some of birth records of Mathias' grandchildren the priest wrote that Mathias' surname was Pelesz on some records and Olenicz on other records.

                        _______

                        Lavrentiy

                        --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Kaytee,
                        >
                        > You wrote:
                        >
                        > "she was a widow, got pregnant with the new guy then married the new guy right before the baby was born so he would be legitimate?"
                        >
                        > That is one scenario. Thanks for that possibility.
                        >
                        > The postulation that I was working with is that Maria and Olenicz, her first husband, conceived Mathias, then Olenicz died, and she then married Daniel Pelesz.
                        >
                        > __________
                        >
                        > Lavrentiy
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Kaytee" <kaytee@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Sorry Lavy, on second sight the column is clealy marked Legitimate. Perhaps it was erased because he was Legitimate, and if you have proof otherwise then perhaps the priest covered it up. Have you considered that perhaps she was a widow, got pregnant with the new guy then married the new guy right before the baby was born so he would be legitimate?
                        > >
                        > > Kaytee
                        > >
                        >
                      • Kaytee
                        Lavrenity, I do not know if this will help but nevertheless here it is. On many of my ancestral village records the priest wrote the wrong last name for the
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jan 5, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Lavrenity, I do not know if this will help but nevertheless here it is. On many of my ancestral village records the priest wrote the wrong last name for the mother. If we are lucky the priest explained as in the example of my G GM's Sawczuk whose mother was a Markiewicz which you all helped me with. However, the priest did not always explain this in writing and would write down the wrong last name. In my experience I have told many people not to discredit the record as many times over the priest for whatever reason forgot the last name possibly of the mother but knew she came from the family of _____.

                          I do not know if the priest forgot but I do see many times it was not the usual priest doing the baptism. One priest would be from one village on the circut and the next would be from another and then again it appears that if a person was big in the church (or attended regularly etc, their names were never forgotten as is common with todays practices. Our church priest knows my sisters well, they all help out, they are on the church board etc but I who never attend church am not known by the priest but if asked, he knows that I come from the Ruszkowski family even though I am an Abramyk by birth as my mothers family was always big in that church.

                          So, to sum it up, perhaps the priest was writing Olenicz knowing it was Pelesz but couldn't remember her new husbands name of Pelesz right then and knew that she was once married to Olenicz so then the person reading the record would know for sure whom the mother was as many other records show she was a Pelesz now. How is that for a whacked out scenario?? LOL Sounds goofy but it honestly happened. I have not other excuse as to why record upon record was written that way.

                          Thanks

                          Kaytee

                          --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Kaytee,
                          >
                          > I need to resolve the issue that on some of birth records of Mathias' grandchildren the priest wrote that Mathias' surname was Pelesz on some records and Olenicz on other records.
                          >
                        • Laurence
                          Thanks Kaytee. You provided another plausible scenario. As we say today, things happen. read this essay ... Why things happen :
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jan 5, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thanks Kaytee. You provided another plausible scenario. As we say today, "things happen."


                            read this essay ..."Why things happen":

                            http://ojar.com/view_34831.htm











                            --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Kaytee" <kaytee@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Lavrenity, I do not know if this will help but nevertheless here it is. On many of my ancestral village records the priest wrote the wrong last name for the mother. If we are lucky the priest explained as in the example of my G GM's Sawczuk whose mother was a Markiewicz which you all helped me with. However, the priest did not always explain this in writing and would write down the wrong last name. In my experience I have told many people not to discredit the record as many times over the priest for whatever reason forgot the last name possibly of the mother but knew she came from the family of _____.
                            >
                            > I do not know if the priest forgot but I do see many times it was not the usual priest doing the baptism. One priest would be from one village on the circut and the next would be from another and then again it appears that if a person was big in the church (or attended regularly etc, their names were never forgotten as is common with todays practices. Our church priest knows my sisters well, they all help out, they are on the church board etc but I who never attend church am not known by the priest but if asked, he knows that I come from the Ruszkowski family even though I am an Abramyk by birth as my mothers family was always big in that church.
                            >
                            > So, to sum it up, perhaps the priest was writing Olenicz knowing it was Pelesz but couldn't remember her new husbands name of Pelesz right then and knew that she was once married to Olenicz so then the person reading the record would know for sure whom the mother was as many other records show she was a Pelesz now. How is that for a whacked out scenario?? LOL Sounds goofy but it honestly happened. I have not other excuse as to why record upon record was written that way.
                            >
                            > Thanks
                            >
                            > Kaytee
                            >
                            > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Kaytee,
                            > >
                            > > I need to resolve the issue that on some of birth records of Mathias' grandchildren the priest wrote that Mathias' surname was Pelesz on some records and Olenicz on other records.
                            > >
                            >
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.