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Re: Ukraine exposes Katyn executioners

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  • Damareisv
    Larry, Cervantes Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I ve enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 30, 2009
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      Larry,

      Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.

      The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.

      Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.

      Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.

      It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.

      Steve Zerkis





      --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
      >
      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Steve,
      > >
      > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
      > >
      > >
      > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
      > >
      > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
      > >
      > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
      > >
      > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
      > >
      > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
      > > >
      > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
      > > >
      > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
      > > >
      > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
      > > >
      > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
      > > >
      > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
      > > >
      > > > Steve Zerkis
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Steve,
      > > > >
      > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
      > > > > _______
      > > > >
      > > > > Lavrentiy
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Steve Zerkis
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > From the Associated Press
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Laurence
      Steve, My comparison of contemporary Eastern European affairs to The Ingenious Hidalgo Don Quixote of La Mancha is different than yours. Poland, Ukraine,
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 1, 2009
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        Steve,

        My comparison of contemporary Eastern European affairs to The Ingenious Hidalgo Don Quixote of La Mancha is different than yours. Poland, Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Georgia are like Don Quixote and Russia is the windmill. P, U, E, L, L and G have not yet realized that Russian Federation is not the Soviet Union.


        _______

        Lavrentiy

        "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Larry,
        >
        > Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.
        >
        > The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.
        >
        > Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.
        >
        > Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.
        >
        > It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.
        >
        > Steve Zerkis
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
        > >
        > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Steve,
        > > >
        > > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
        > > >
        > > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
        > > >
        > > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
        > > >
        > > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
        > > >
        > > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
        > > > >
        > > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
        > > > >
        > > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
        > > > >
        > > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
        > > > >
        > > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
        > > > >
        > > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
        > > > >
        > > > > Steve Zerkis
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Steve,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
        > > > > > _______
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Lavrentiy
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > From the Associated Press
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Damareisv
        Larry. I don t think that the countries you mentioned see Russia as the windmill at all, and they are certainly not insane as was Don Quixote. The USSR morphed
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 1, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Larry.

          I don't think that the countries you mentioned see Russia as the windmill at all, and they are certainly not insane as was Don Quixote.

          The USSR morphed into russia only 20 years ago and its going to take some time for Russia to prove that they are a friendly local. There is too much history to overcome in a few short years. just changing the name over the door from "CCCP" to "Russia" doesn't change the perception of Russia. Those countries all have modern scars from the Soviet Union that wont go away over night.

          Steve Zerkis





          --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
          >
          > Steve,
          >
          > My comparison of contemporary Eastern European affairs to The Ingenious Hidalgo Don Quixote of La Mancha is different than yours. Poland, Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Georgia are like Don Quixote and Russia is the windmill. P, U, E, L, L and G have not yet realized that Russian Federation is not the Soviet Union.
          >
          >
          > _______
          >
          > Lavrentiy
          >
          > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Larry,
          > >
          > > Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.
          > >
          > > The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.
          > >
          > > Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.
          > >
          > > Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.
          > >
          > > It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.
          > >
          > > Steve Zerkis
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
          > > >
          > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Steve,
          > > > >
          > > > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
          > > > >
          > > > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
          > > > >
          > > > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
          > > > >
          > > > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
          > > > >
          > > > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Steve Zerkis
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Steve,
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
          > > > > > > _______
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Lavrentiy
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > From the Associated Press
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Danuta Janina Wójcik
          Steve, unfortunately, insanity still exists over the pond. :) Lithuanian Defence Minister: Military exercises in Belarus reminded of cold war 30.09.2009 There
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 1, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Steve, unfortunately, insanity still exists over the pond. :)



            Lithuanian Defence Minister: Military exercises in Belarus reminded of cold war

            30.09.2009



            There came a breath of the cold war with the Belarusian-Russian army exercises near Lithuanian borders, as they contradict security reality completely, Lithuanian Defence Minister Rasa Juknevičienė states.

            Despite of the fact that the concept of these exercises is wrong, they pose no threat to Lithuania, the minister believes.

            Commenting to DELFI the army exercises held by Russia and Belarus next to the EU and the NATO borders, Rasa Juknevičienė noted with regret that they are out of the picture with current situation.

            “These drills are held every year, but it is a pity they are not in line with security reality at all. Neither Lithuania, nor the NATO intends to attack such countries as Belarus and Russia; and neither Lithuania nor the NATO poses any threat to Belarus and Russia. So the idea of the drills is wrong in fact,” said to DELFI.

            In such a context the joint exercises of the two Lithuania’s neighbours reminded of the cold war to the minster.

            “It reminds me a breath of the cold war, when there really was a military confrontation between the East and the West, the NATO and the Soviet Union. But the NATO chose a different way long ago, and lives in the 21st century, but these exercises unfortunately remind the times of the cold war, not by the manoeuvres themselves, as all armies have to hold exercises, but by their spirit; or they are returning us to those times. If Russia seeks close friendly relations with the NATO, with the US and the EU countries, such exercises are hard to be explained in this context by anything but ideology, power display near the borders of Lithuania. I’d like to believe that with time understanding would come that the life has changed,” the minister noted.

            However, according to Rasa Juknevičienė, “these exercises do not pose any threat to Lithuania”.


            http://www.charter97.org/en/news/2009/9/30/22373/
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Damareisv
            To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:47 AM
            Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Re: Ukraine exposes Katyn executioners




            Larry,

            Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.

            The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.

            Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.

            Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.

            It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.

            Steve Zerkis

            --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
            >
            > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Steve,
            > >
            > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
            > >
            > >
            > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
            > >
            > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
            > >
            > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
            > >
            > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
            > >
            > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
            > > >
            > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
            > > >
            > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
            > > >
            > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
            > > >
            > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
            > > >
            > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
            > > >
            > > > Steve Zerkis
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Steve,
            > > > >
            > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
            > > > > _______
            > > > >
            > > > > Lavrentiy
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Steve Zerkis
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > From the Associated Press
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Danuta Janina Wójcik
            Don Quixotes cloned - Russia and Belarus. ... From: Danuta Janina Wójcik To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 3:42 PM
            Message 5 of 28 , Oct 1, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Don Quixotes cloned - Russia and Belarus.

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Danuta Janina Wójcik
              To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 3:42 PM
              Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Ukraine exposes Katyn executioners


              Steve, unfortunately, insanity still exists over the pond. :)

              Lithuanian Defence Minister: Military exercises in Belarus reminded of cold war

              30.09.2009

              There came a breath of the cold war with the Belarusian-Russian army exercises near Lithuanian borders, as they contradict security reality completely, Lithuanian Defence Minister Rasa Juknevičienė states.

              Despite of the fact that the concept of these exercises is wrong, they pose no threat to Lithuania, the minister believes.

              Commenting to DELFI the army exercises held by Russia and Belarus next to the EU and the NATO borders, Rasa Juknevičienė noted with regret that they are out of the picture with current situation.

              “These drills are held every year, but it is a pity they are not in line with security reality at all. Neither Lithuania, nor the NATO intends to attack such countries as Belarus and Russia; and neither Lithuania nor the NATO poses any threat to Belarus and Russia. So the idea of the drills is wrong in fact,” said to DELFI.

              In such a context the joint exercises of the two Lithuania’s neighbours reminded of the cold war to the minster.

              “It reminds me a breath of the cold war, when there really was a military confrontation between the East and the West, the NATO and the Soviet Union. But the NATO chose a different way long ago, and lives in the 21st century, but these exercises unfortunately remind the times of the cold war, not by the manoeuvres themselves, as all armies have to hold exercises, but by their spirit; or they are returning us to those times. If Russia seeks close friendly relations with the NATO, with the US and the EU countries, such exercises are hard to be explained in this context by anything but ideology, power display near the borders of Lithuania. I’d like to believe that with time understanding would come that the life has changed,” the minister noted.

              However, according to Rasa Juknevičienė, “these exercises do not pose any threat to Lithuania”.

              http://www.charter97.org/en/news/2009/9/30/22373/
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Damareisv
              To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:47 AM
              Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Re: Ukraine exposes Katyn executioners

              Larry,

              Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.

              The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.

              Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.

              Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.

              It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.

              Steve Zerkis

              --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
              >
              > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Steve,
              > >
              > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
              > >
              > >
              > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
              > >
              > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
              > >
              > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
              > >
              > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
              > >
              > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
              > > >
              > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
              > > >
              > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
              > > >
              > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
              > > >
              > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
              > > >
              > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
              > > >
              > > > Steve Zerkis
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Steve,
              > > > >
              > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
              > > > > _______
              > > > >
              > > > > Lavrentiy
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Steve Zerkis
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > From the Associated Press
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Damareisv
              Danuta, Joint military manoeuvers are relatively standard. Belarus and Russia are close allies. They have integrated their air defense forces. Their army
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 1, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Danuta,

                Joint military manoeuvers are relatively standard. Belarus and Russia are close allies. They have integrated their air defense forces. Their army and air force is a carbon copy of the russian forces on a much smaller scale. During the 2008 joint manoeuvers they committed a total of 8,500 people to the exercise. Its just an opportunity for the boys to play with their big toys.

                There may be small element of intimidation in this drill but I'm sure the Lithuanian defense minister will not be losing any sleep over it. The country is part of NATO. His comments are just political.

                Steve Zerkis





                --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Danuta Janina Wójcik <sandlily@...> wrote:
                >
                > Steve, unfortunately, insanity still exists over the pond. :)
                >
                >
                >
                > Lithuanian Defence Minister: Military exercises in Belarus reminded of cold war
                >
                > 30.09.2009
                >
                >
                >
                > There came a breath of the cold war with the Belarusian-Russian army exercises near Lithuanian borders, as they contradict security reality completely, Lithuanian Defence Minister Rasa Juknevičienė states.
                >
                > Despite of the fact that the concept of these exercises is wrong, they pose no threat to Lithuania, the minister believes.
                >
                > Commenting to DELFI the army exercises held by Russia and Belarus next to the EU and the NATO borders, Rasa Juknevičienė noted with regret that they are out of the picture with current situation.
                >
                > “These drills are held every year, but it is a pity they are not in line with security reality at all. Neither Lithuania, nor the NATO intends to attack such countries as Belarus and Russia; and neither Lithuania nor the NATO poses any threat to Belarus and Russia. So the idea of the drills is wrong in fact,” said to DELFI.
                >
                > In such a context the joint exercises of the two Lithuania’s neighbours reminded of the cold war to the minster.
                >
                > “It reminds me a breath of the cold war, when there really was a military confrontation between the East and the West, the NATO and the Soviet Union. But the NATO chose a different way long ago, and lives in the 21st century, but these exercises unfortunately remind the times of the cold war, not by the manoeuvres themselves, as all armies have to hold exercises, but by their spirit; or they are returning us to those times. If Russia seeks close friendly relations with the NATO, with the US and the EU countries, such exercises are hard to be explained in this context by anything but ideology, power display near the borders of Lithuania. I’d like to believe that with time understanding would come that the life has changed,” the minister noted.
                >
                > However, according to Rasa Juknevičienė, “these exercises do not pose any threat to Lithuania”.
                >
                >
                > http://www.charter97.org/en/news/2009/9/30/22373/
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Damareisv
                > To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:47 AM
                > Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Re: Ukraine exposes Katyn executioners
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Larry,
                >
                > Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.
                >
                > The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.
                >
                > Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.
                >
                > Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.
                >
                > It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.
                >
                > Steve Zerkis
                >
                > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
                > >
                > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Steve,
                > > >
                > > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
                > > >
                > > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
                > > >
                > > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
                > > >
                > > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
                > > >
                > > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
                > > > >
                > > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
                > > > >
                > > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
                > > > >
                > > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
                > > > >
                > > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
                > > > >
                > > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
                > > > >
                > > > > Steve Zerkis
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Steve,
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
                > > > > > _______
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Lavrentiy
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > From the Associated Press
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Laurence
                Steve, Georgia is not a NATO member, so why in May 2009 did NATO conduct exercises in Georgia?: http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE5451FK20090506
                Message 7 of 28 , Oct 1, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Steve,

                  Georgia is not a NATO member, so why in May 2009 did NATO conduct exercises in Georgia?:


                  http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE5451FK20090506

                  http://www.georgiatimes.info/en/articles/11983.html


                  http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azfPy3r5yb9w&refer=home


                  Yes, there is a lot of insanity in this world.
                  _______

                  Lavrentiy




                  "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Danuta,
                  >
                  > Joint military manoeuvers are relatively standard. Belarus and Russia are close allies. They have integrated their air defense forces. Their army and air force is a carbon copy of the russian forces on a much smaller scale. During the 2008 joint manoeuvers they committed a total of 8,500 people to the exercise. Its just an opportunity for the boys to play with their big toys.
                  >
                  > There may be small element of intimidation in this drill but I'm sure the Lithuanian defense minister will not be losing any sleep over it. The country is part of NATO. His comments are just political.






                  > Steve Zerkis


                  ____

                  Lavrentiy






                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Danuta Janina Wójcik <sandlily@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Steve, unfortunately, insanity still exists over the pond. :)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Lithuanian Defence Minister: Military exercises in Belarus reminded of cold war
                  > >
                  > > 30.09.2009
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > There came a breath of the cold war with the Belarusian-Russian army exercises near Lithuanian borders, as they contradict security reality completely, Lithuanian Defence Minister Rasa Juknevičienė states.
                  > >
                  > > Despite of the fact that the concept of these exercises is wrong, they pose no threat to Lithuania, the minister believes.
                  > >
                  > > Commenting to DELFI the army exercises held by Russia and Belarus next to the EU and the NATO borders, Rasa Juknevičienė noted with regret that they are out of the picture with current situation.
                  > >
                  > > “These drills are held every year, but it is a pity they are not in line with security reality at all. Neither Lithuania, nor the NATO intends to attack such countries as Belarus and Russia; and neither Lithuania nor the NATO poses any threat to Belarus and Russia. So the idea of the drills is wrong in fact,” said to DELFI.
                  > >
                  > > In such a context the joint exercises of the two Lithuania’s neighbours reminded of the cold war to the minster.
                  > >
                  > > “It reminds me a breath of the cold war, when there really was a military confrontation between the East and the West, the NATO and the Soviet Union. But the NATO chose a different way long ago, and lives in the 21st century, but these exercises unfortunately remind the times of the cold war, not by the manoeuvres themselves, as all armies have to hold exercises, but by their spirit; or they are returning us to those times. If Russia seeks close friendly relations with the NATO, with the US and the EU countries, such exercises are hard to be explained in this context by anything but ideology, power display near the borders of Lithuania. I’d like to believe that with time understanding would come that the life has changed,” the minister noted.
                  > >
                  > > However, according to Rasa Juknevičienė, “these exercises do not pose any threat to Lithuania”.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > http://www.charter97.org/en/news/2009/9/30/22373/
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: Damareisv
                  > > To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:47 AM
                  > > Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Re: Ukraine exposes Katyn executioners
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Larry,
                  > >
                  > > Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.
                  > >
                  > > The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.
                  > >
                  > > Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.
                  > >
                  > > Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.
                  > >
                  > > It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.
                  > >
                  > > Steve Zerkis
                  > >
                  > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Steve,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Steve,
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
                  > > > > > > _______
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > From the Associated Press
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                • Laurence
                  EU report blames Georgia for South Ossetia war http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isBfWFUhV0Q http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4746802,00.html
                  Message 8 of 28 , Oct 1, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    EU report blames Georgia for South Ossetia war

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isBfWFUhV0Q

                    http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4746802,00.html










                    --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Steve,
                    >
                    > Georgia is not a NATO member, so why in May 2009 did NATO conduct exercises in Georgia?:
                    >
                    >
                    > http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE5451FK20090506
                    >
                    > http://www.georgiatimes.info/en/articles/11983.html
                    >
                    >
                    > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azfPy3r5yb9w&refer=home
                    >
                    >
                    > Yes, there is a lot of insanity in this world.
                    > _______
                    >
                    > Lavrentiy
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Danuta,
                    > >
                    > > Joint military manoeuvers are relatively standard. Belarus and Russia are close allies. They have integrated their air defense forces. Their army and air force is a carbon copy of the russian forces on a much smaller scale. During the 2008 joint manoeuvers they committed a total of 8,500 people to the exercise. Its just an opportunity for the boys to play with their big toys.
                    > >
                    > > There may be small element of intimidation in this drill but I'm sure the Lithuanian defense minister will not be losing any sleep over it. The country is part of NATO. His comments are just political.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > Steve Zerkis
                    >
                    >
                    > ____
                    >
                    > Lavrentiy
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Danuta Janina Wójcik <sandlily@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Steve, unfortunately, insanity still exists over the pond. :)
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Lithuanian Defence Minister: Military exercises in Belarus reminded of cold war
                    > > >
                    > > > 30.09.2009
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > There came a breath of the cold war with the Belarusian-Russian army exercises near Lithuanian borders, as they contradict security reality completely, Lithuanian Defence Minister Rasa Juknevičienė states.
                    > > >
                    > > > Despite of the fact that the concept of these exercises is wrong, they pose no threat to Lithuania, the minister believes.
                    > > >
                    > > > Commenting to DELFI the army exercises held by Russia and Belarus next to the EU and the NATO borders, Rasa Juknevičienė noted with regret that they are out of the picture with current situation.
                    > > >
                    > > > “These drills are held every year, but it is a pity they are not in line with security reality at all. Neither Lithuania, nor the NATO intends to attack such countries as Belarus and Russia; and neither Lithuania nor the NATO poses any threat to Belarus and Russia. So the idea of the drills is wrong in fact,” said to DELFI.
                    > > >
                    > > > In such a context the joint exercises of the two Lithuania’s neighbours reminded of the cold war to the minster.
                    > > >
                    > > > “It reminds me a breath of the cold war, when there really was a military confrontation between the East and the West, the NATO and the Soviet Union. But the NATO chose a different way long ago, and lives in the 21st century, but these exercises unfortunately remind the times of the cold war, not by the manoeuvres themselves, as all armies have to hold exercises, but by their spirit; or they are returning us to those times. If Russia seeks close friendly relations with the NATO, with the US and the EU countries, such exercises are hard to be explained in this context by anything but ideology, power display near the borders of Lithuania. I’d like to believe that with time understanding would come that the life has changed,” the minister noted.
                    > > >
                    > > > However, according to Rasa Juknevičienė, “these exercises do not pose any threat to Lithuania”.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > http://www.charter97.org/en/news/2009/9/30/22373/
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: Damareisv
                    > > > To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:47 AM
                    > > > Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Re: Ukraine exposes Katyn executioners
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Larry,
                    > > >
                    > > > Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.
                    > > >
                    > > > The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.
                    > > >
                    > > > Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.
                    > > >
                    > > > Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.
                    > > >
                    > > > It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.
                    > > >
                    > > > Steve Zerkis
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Steve,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Steve,
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
                    > > > > > > > _______
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > From the Associated Press
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Damareisv
                    Laurence, Yes they did as part of an exercise with an organization of some 23 countries called Partnership for Peace which is a NATO program. Guess who is
                    Message 9 of 28 , Oct 2, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Laurence,

                      Yes they did as part of an exercise with an organization of some 23 countries called "Partnership for Peace" which is a NATO program. Guess who is a member of this organization? One hint, its capital is Moscow. Why don't you ask them why they are part of a organization that also includes Belarus, and ten other former members of the Soviet Union and participates in joint exercises with NATO countries? I thought you have been saying that Russia was supposed to be peace loving? Are you now suggesting otherwise?

                      Steve Zerkis




                      --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Steve,
                      >
                      > Georgia is not a NATO member, so why in May 2009 did NATO conduct exercises in Georgia?:
                      >
                      >
                      > http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE5451FK20090506
                      >
                      > http://www.georgiatimes.info/en/articles/11983.html
                      >
                      >
                      > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azfPy3r5yb9w&refer=home
                      >
                      >
                      > Yes, there is a lot of insanity in this world.
                      > _______
                      >
                      > Lavrentiy
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Danuta,
                      > >
                      > > Joint military manoeuvers are relatively standard. Belarus and Russia are close allies. They have integrated their air defense forces. Their army and air force is a carbon copy of the russian forces on a much smaller scale. During the 2008 joint manoeuvers they committed a total of 8,500 people to the exercise. Its just an opportunity for the boys to play with their big toys.
                      > >
                      > > There may be small element of intimidation in this drill but I'm sure the Lithuanian defense minister will not be losing any sleep over it. The country is part of NATO. His comments are just political.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > > Steve Zerkis
                      >
                      >
                      > ____
                      >
                      > Lavrentiy
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Danuta Janina Wójcik <sandlily@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Steve, unfortunately, insanity still exists over the pond. :)
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Lithuanian Defence Minister: Military exercises in Belarus reminded of cold war
                      > > >
                      > > > 30.09.2009
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > There came a breath of the cold war with the Belarusian-Russian army exercises near Lithuanian borders, as they contradict security reality completely, Lithuanian Defence Minister Rasa Juknevičienė states.
                      > > >
                      > > > Despite of the fact that the concept of these exercises is wrong, they pose no threat to Lithuania, the minister believes.
                      > > >
                      > > > Commenting to DELFI the army exercises held by Russia and Belarus next to the EU and the NATO borders, Rasa Juknevičienė noted with regret that they are out of the picture with current situation.
                      > > >
                      > > > “These drills are held every year, but it is a pity they are not in line with security reality at all. Neither Lithuania, nor the NATO intends to attack such countries as Belarus and Russia; and neither Lithuania nor the NATO poses any threat to Belarus and Russia. So the idea of the drills is wrong in fact,” said to DELFI.
                      > > >
                      > > > In such a context the joint exercises of the two Lithuania’s neighbours reminded of the cold war to the minster.
                      > > >
                      > > > “It reminds me a breath of the cold war, when there really was a military confrontation between the East and the West, the NATO and the Soviet Union. But the NATO chose a different way long ago, and lives in the 21st century, but these exercises unfortunately remind the times of the cold war, not by the manoeuvres themselves, as all armies have to hold exercises, but by their spirit; or they are returning us to those times. If Russia seeks close friendly relations with the NATO, with the US and the EU countries, such exercises are hard to be explained in this context by anything but ideology, power display near the borders of Lithuania. I’d like to believe that with time understanding would come that the life has changed,” the minister noted.
                      > > >
                      > > > However, according to Rasa Juknevičienė, “these exercises do not pose any threat to Lithuania”.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.charter97.org/en/news/2009/9/30/22373/
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: Damareisv
                      > > > To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:47 AM
                      > > > Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Re: Ukraine exposes Katyn executioners
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Larry,
                      > > >
                      > > > Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.
                      > > >
                      > > > The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.
                      > > >
                      > > > Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.
                      > > >
                      > > > Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.
                      > > >
                      > > > It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.
                      > > >
                      > > > Steve Zerkis
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Steve,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Steve,
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
                      > > > > > > > _______
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > From the Associated Press
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Laurence
                      Steve, The excerice in Georgia should have bee postponed or cancelled: Before the beginning of the exercises in Georgia, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev
                      Message 10 of 28 , Oct 2, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Steve,

                        The excerice in Georgia should have bee postponed or cancelled:

                        Before the beginning of the exercises in Georgia, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev warned that, "NATO's plans to hold exercises in Georgia...are an open provocation. Exercises must not be held there where a war has been fought," and referred to the Alliance's behavior as "muscle-flexing."

                        The Russian ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Anvar Azimov, said on May 8 that "NATO's ongoing exercise in Georgia is a downright provocation, since it is held in a region where a war was fought just months ago and where blood was spilt and civilians died." [1]


                        From:

                        http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13547


                        ______

                        Lavrentiy






                        --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Laurence,
                        >
                        > Yes they did as part of an exercise with an organization of some 23 countries called "Partnership for Peace" which is a NATO program. Guess who is a member of this organization? One hint, its capital is Moscow. Why don't you ask them why they are part of a organization that also includes Belarus, and ten other former members of the Soviet Union and participates in joint exercises with NATO countries? I thought you have been saying that Russia was supposed to be peace loving? Are you now suggesting otherwise?
                        >
                        > Steve Zerkis
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Steve,
                        > >
                        > > Georgia is not a NATO member, so why in May 2009 did NATO conduct exercises in Georgia?:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE5451FK20090506
                        > >
                        > > http://www.georgiatimes.info/en/articles/11983.html
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azfPy3r5yb9w&refer=home
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yes, there is a lot of insanity in this world.
                        > > _______
                        > >
                        > > Lavrentiy
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Danuta,
                        > > >
                        > > > Joint military manoeuvers are relatively standard. Belarus and Russia are close allies. They have integrated their air defense forces. Their army and air force is a carbon copy of the russian forces on a much smaller scale. During the 2008 joint manoeuvers they committed a total of 8,500 people to the exercise. Its just an opportunity for the boys to play with their big toys.
                        > > >
                        > > > There may be small element of intimidation in this drill but I'm sure the Lithuanian defense minister will not be losing any sleep over it. The country is part of NATO. His comments are just political.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > Steve Zerkis
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ____
                        > >
                        > > Lavrentiy
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Danuta Janina Wójcik <sandlily@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Steve, unfortunately, insanity still exists over the pond. :)
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Lithuanian Defence Minister: Military exercises in Belarus reminded of cold war
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 30.09.2009
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > There came a breath of the cold war with the Belarusian-Russian army exercises near Lithuanian borders, as they contradict security reality completely, Lithuanian Defence Minister Rasa Juknevičienė states.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Despite of the fact that the concept of these exercises is wrong, they pose no threat to Lithuania, the minister believes.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Commenting to DELFI the army exercises held by Russia and Belarus next to the EU and the NATO borders, Rasa Juknevičienė noted with regret that they are out of the picture with current situation.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > “These drills are held every year, but it is a pity they are not in line with security reality at all. Neither Lithuania, nor the NATO intends to attack such countries as Belarus and Russia; and neither Lithuania nor the NATO poses any threat to Belarus and Russia. So the idea of the drills is wrong in fact,” said to DELFI.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > In such a context the joint exercises of the two Lithuania’s neighbours reminded of the cold war to the minster.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > “It reminds me a breath of the cold war, when there really was a military confrontation between the East and the West, the NATO and the Soviet Union. But the NATO chose a different way long ago, and lives in the 21st century, but these exercises unfortunately remind the times of the cold war, not by the manoeuvres themselves, as all armies have to hold exercises, but by their spirit; or they are returning us to those times. If Russia seeks close friendly relations with the NATO, with the US and the EU countries, such exercises are hard to be explained in this context by anything but ideology, power display near the borders of Lithuania. I’d like to believe that with time understanding would come that the life has changed,” the minister noted.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > However, according to Rasa Juknevičienė, “these exercises do not pose any threat to Lithuania”.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > http://www.charter97.org/en/news/2009/9/30/22373/
                        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > > From: Damareisv
                        > > > > To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:47 AM
                        > > > > Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Re: Ukraine exposes Katyn executioners
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Larry,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Steve Zerkis
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Steve,
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > Steve,
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
                        > > > > > > > > _______
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > > From the Associated Press
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
                        > > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Laurence
                        Steve, The goal of PIP is to create trust between NATO and other states in Europe and the former Soviet Union. NATO conducting excercises in a nation
                        Message 11 of 28 , Oct 2, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Steve,

                          The goal of PIP is to create trust between NATO and other states in Europe and the former Soviet Union. NATO conducting excercises in a nation (Georgia) that started a war with another nation (South Ossetia) doesn't create trust.

                          _____

                          Lavrentiy



                          --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Steve,
                          >
                          > The excerice in Georgia should have bee postponed or cancelled:
                          >
                          > Before the beginning of the exercises in Georgia, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev warned that, "NATO's plans to hold exercises in Georgia...are an open provocation. Exercises must not be held there where a war has been fought," and referred to the Alliance's behavior as "muscle-flexing."
                          >
                          > The Russian ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Anvar Azimov, said on May 8 that "NATO's ongoing exercise in Georgia is a downright provocation, since it is held in a region where a war was fought just months ago and where blood was spilt and civilians died." [1]
                          >
                          >
                          > From:
                          >
                          > http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13547
                          >
                          >
                          > ______
                          >
                          > Lavrentiy
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Laurence,
                          > >
                          > > Yes they did as part of an exercise with an organization of some 23 countries called "Partnership for Peace" which is a NATO program. Guess who is a member of this organization? One hint, its capital is Moscow. Why don't you ask them why they are part of a organization that also includes Belarus, and ten other former members of the Soviet Union and participates in joint exercises with NATO countries? I thought you have been saying that Russia was supposed to be peace loving? Are you now suggesting otherwise?
                          > >
                          > > Steve Zerkis
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Steve,
                          > > >
                          > > > Georgia is not a NATO member, so why in May 2009 did NATO conduct exercises in Georgia?:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE5451FK20090506
                          > > >
                          > > > http://www.georgiatimes.info/en/articles/11983.html
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azfPy3r5yb9w&refer=home
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Yes, there is a lot of insanity in this world.
                          > > > _______
                          > > >
                          > > > Lavrentiy
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Danuta,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Joint military manoeuvers are relatively standard. Belarus and Russia are close allies. They have integrated their air defense forces. Their army and air force is a carbon copy of the russian forces on a much smaller scale. During the 2008 joint manoeuvers they committed a total of 8,500 people to the exercise. Its just an opportunity for the boys to play with their big toys.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > There may be small element of intimidation in this drill but I'm sure the Lithuanian defense minister will not be losing any sleep over it. The country is part of NATO. His comments are just political.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > > Steve Zerkis
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > ____
                          > > >
                          > > > Lavrentiy
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Danuta Janina Wójcik <sandlily@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Steve, unfortunately, insanity still exists over the pond. :)
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Lithuanian Defence Minister: Military exercises in Belarus reminded of cold war
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 30.09.2009
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > There came a breath of the cold war with the Belarusian-Russian army exercises near Lithuanian borders, as they contradict security reality completely, Lithuanian Defence Minister Rasa Juknevičienė states.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Despite of the fact that the concept of these exercises is wrong, they pose no threat to Lithuania, the minister believes.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Commenting to DELFI the army exercises held by Russia and Belarus next to the EU and the NATO borders, Rasa Juknevičienė noted with regret that they are out of the picture with current situation.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > “These drills are held every year, but it is a pity they are not in line with security reality at all. Neither Lithuania, nor the NATO intends to attack such countries as Belarus and Russia; and neither Lithuania nor the NATO poses any threat to Belarus and Russia. So the idea of the drills is wrong in fact,” said to DELFI.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > In such a context the joint exercises of the two Lithuania’s neighbours reminded of the cold war to the minster.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > “It reminds me a breath of the cold war, when there really was a military confrontation between the East and the West, the NATO and the Soviet Union. But the NATO chose a different way long ago, and lives in the 21st century, but these exercises unfortunately remind the times of the cold war, not by the manoeuvres themselves, as all armies have to hold exercises, but by their spirit; or they are returning us to those times. If Russia seeks close friendly relations with the NATO, with the US and the EU countries, such exercises are hard to be explained in this context by anything but ideology, power display near the borders of Lithuania. I’d like to believe that with time understanding would come that the life has changed,” the minister noted.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > However, according to Rasa Juknevičienė, “these exercises do not pose any threat to Lithuania”.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > http://www.charter97.org/en/news/2009/9/30/22373/
                          > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > > > From: Damareisv
                          > > > > > To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:47 AM
                          > > > > > Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Re: Ukraine exposes Katyn executioners
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Larry,
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Steve,
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > Steve,
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
                          > > > > > > > > > _______
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                          > > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
                          > > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > > From the Associated Press
                          > > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
                          > > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
                          > > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
                          > > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
                          > > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
                          > > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
                          > > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Laurence
                          PFP: the purpose of the Partnership for Peace is to increase stability, diminish threats to peace and build strengthened security relationships between
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 2, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            PFP:

                            the purpose of the Partnership for Peace is to increase stability, diminish threats to peace and build strengthened security relationships between individual Partner countries and NATO, as well as among Partner countries.


                            SO NATO conducted exrcises in Georgia which a few months before attacked South Ossetia. That's some partneship.

                            http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_50349.htm


                            Ukraine and Georgia will never be invited to join NATO.






                            --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Steve,
                            >
                            > The goal of PIP is to create trust between NATO and other states in Europe and the former Soviet Union. NATO conducting excercises in a nation (Georgia) that started a war with another nation (South Ossetia) doesn't create trust.
                            >
                            > _____
                            >
                            > Lavrentiy
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Steve,
                            > >
                            > > The excerice in Georgia should have bee postponed or cancelled:
                            > >
                            > > Before the beginning of the exercises in Georgia, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev warned that, "NATO's plans to hold exercises in Georgia...are an open provocation. Exercises must not be held there where a war has been fought," and referred to the Alliance's behavior as "muscle-flexing."
                            > >
                            > > The Russian ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Anvar Azimov, said on May 8 that "NATO's ongoing exercise in Georgia is a downright provocation, since it is held in a region where a war was fought just months ago and where blood was spilt and civilians died." [1]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > From:
                            > >
                            > > http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13547
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ______
                            > >
                            > > Lavrentiy
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Laurence,
                            > > >
                            > > > Yes they did as part of an exercise with an organization of some 23 countries called "Partnership for Peace" which is a NATO program. Guess who is a member of this organization? One hint, its capital is Moscow. Why don't you ask them why they are part of a organization that also includes Belarus, and ten other former members of the Soviet Union and participates in joint exercises with NATO countries? I thought you have been saying that Russia was supposed to be peace loving? Are you now suggesting otherwise?
                            > > >
                            > > > Steve Zerkis
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Steve,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Georgia is not a NATO member, so why in May 2009 did NATO conduct exercises in Georgia?:
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE5451FK20090506
                            > > > >
                            > > > > http://www.georgiatimes.info/en/articles/11983.html
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azfPy3r5yb9w&refer=home
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Yes, there is a lot of insanity in this world.
                            > > > > _______
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Lavrentiy
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Danuta,
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Joint military manoeuvers are relatively standard. Belarus and Russia are close allies. They have integrated their air defense forces. Their army and air force is a carbon copy of the russian forces on a much smaller scale. During the 2008 joint manoeuvers they committed a total of 8,500 people to the exercise. Its just an opportunity for the boys to play with their big toys.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > There may be small element of intimidation in this drill but I'm sure the Lithuanian defense minister will not be losing any sleep over it. The country is part of NATO. His comments are just political.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > ____
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Lavrentiy
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Danuta Janina Wójcik <sandlily@> wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Steve, unfortunately, insanity still exists over the pond. :)
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Lithuanian Defence Minister: Military exercises in Belarus reminded of cold war
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > 30.09.2009
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > There came a breath of the cold war with the Belarusian-Russian army exercises near Lithuanian borders, as they contradict security reality completely, Lithuanian Defence Minister Rasa Juknevičienė states.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Despite of the fact that the concept of these exercises is wrong, they pose no threat to Lithuania, the minister believes.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Commenting to DELFI the army exercises held by Russia and Belarus next to the EU and the NATO borders, Rasa Juknevičienė noted with regret that they are out of the picture with current situation.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > “These drills are held every year, but it is a pity they are not in line with security reality at all. Neither Lithuania, nor the NATO intends to attack such countries as Belarus and Russia; and neither Lithuania nor the NATO poses any threat to Belarus and Russia. So the idea of the drills is wrong in fact,” said to DELFI.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > In such a context the joint exercises of the two Lithuania’s neighbours reminded of the cold war to the minster.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > “It reminds me a breath of the cold war, when there really was a military confrontation between the East and the West, the NATO and the Soviet Union. But the NATO chose a different way long ago, and lives in the 21st century, but these exercises unfortunately remind the times of the cold war, not by the manoeuvres themselves, as all armies have to hold exercises, but by their spirit; or they are returning us to those times. If Russia seeks close friendly relations with the NATO, with the US and the EU countries, such exercises are hard to be explained in this context by anything but ideology, power display near the borders of Lithuania. I’d like to believe that with time understanding would come that the life has changed,” the minister noted.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > However, according to Rasa Juknevičienė, “these exercises do not pose any threat to Lithuania”.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > http://www.charter97.org/en/news/2009/9/30/22373/
                            > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > > > > > From: Damareisv
                            > > > > > > To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:47 AM
                            > > > > > > Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Re: Ukraine exposes Katyn executioners
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Larry,
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Steve,
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > Steve,
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
                            > > > > > > > > > > _______
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
                            > > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > > From the Associated Press
                            > > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
                            > > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
                            > > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
                            > > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
                            > > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
                            > > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
                            > > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Laurence
                            Ukraine was furnishing weapons to Georgia which it used to invade South Ossetia. Poland was also supporting Georgia. ______ Lavrentiy
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 2, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Ukraine was furnishing weapons to Georgia which it used to invade South Ossetia. Poland was also supporting Georgia.

                              ______

                              Lavrentiy



                              --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > PFP:
                              >
                              > the purpose of the Partnership for Peace is to increase stability, diminish threats to peace and build strengthened security relationships between individual Partner countries and NATO, as well as among Partner countries.
                              >
                              >
                              > SO NATO conducted exrcises in Georgia which a few months before attacked South Ossetia. That's some partneship.
                              >
                              > http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_50349.htm
                              >
                              >
                              > Ukraine and Georgia will never be invited to join NATO.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Steve,
                              > >
                              > > The goal of PIP is to create trust between NATO and other states in Europe and the former Soviet Union. NATO conducting excercises in a nation (Georgia) that started a war with another nation (South Ossetia) doesn't create trust.
                              > >
                              > > _____
                              > >
                              > > Lavrentiy
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Steve,
                              > > >
                              > > > The excerice in Georgia should have bee postponed or cancelled:
                              > > >
                              > > > Before the beginning of the exercises in Georgia, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev warned that, "NATO's plans to hold exercises in Georgia...are an open provocation. Exercises must not be held there where a war has been fought," and referred to the Alliance's behavior as "muscle-flexing."
                              > > >
                              > > > The Russian ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Anvar Azimov, said on May 8 that "NATO's ongoing exercise in Georgia is a downright provocation, since it is held in a region where a war was fought just months ago and where blood was spilt and civilians died." [1]
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > From:
                              > > >
                              > > > http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13547
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ______
                              > > >
                              > > > Lavrentiy
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Laurence,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Yes they did as part of an exercise with an organization of some 23 countries called "Partnership for Peace" which is a NATO program. Guess who is a member of this organization? One hint, its capital is Moscow. Why don't you ask them why they are part of a organization that also includes Belarus, and ten other former members of the Soviet Union and participates in joint exercises with NATO countries? I thought you have been saying that Russia was supposed to be peace loving? Are you now suggesting otherwise?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Steve Zerkis
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Steve,
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Georgia is not a NATO member, so why in May 2009 did NATO conduct exercises in Georgia?:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE5451FK20090506
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > http://www.georgiatimes.info/en/articles/11983.html
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azfPy3r5yb9w&refer=home
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Yes, there is a lot of insanity in this world.
                              > > > > > _______
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Lavrentiy
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Danuta,
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Joint military manoeuvers are relatively standard. Belarus and Russia are close allies. They have integrated their air defense forces. Their army and air force is a carbon copy of the russian forces on a much smaller scale. During the 2008 joint manoeuvers they committed a total of 8,500 people to the exercise. Its just an opportunity for the boys to play with their big toys.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > There may be small element of intimidation in this drill but I'm sure the Lithuanian defense minister will not be losing any sleep over it. The country is part of NATO. His comments are just political.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > ____
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Lavrentiy
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Danuta Janina Wójcik <sandlily@> wrote:
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Steve, unfortunately, insanity still exists over the pond. :)
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Lithuanian Defence Minister: Military exercises in Belarus reminded of cold war
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > 30.09.2009
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > There came a breath of the cold war with the Belarusian-Russian army exercises near Lithuanian borders, as they contradict security reality completely, Lithuanian Defence Minister Rasa Juknevičienė states.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Despite of the fact that the concept of these exercises is wrong, they pose no threat to Lithuania, the minister believes.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Commenting to DELFI the army exercises held by Russia and Belarus next to the EU and the NATO borders, Rasa Juknevičienė noted with regret that they are out of the picture with current situation.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > “These drills are held every year, but it is a pity they are not in line with security reality at all. Neither Lithuania, nor the NATO intends to attack such countries as Belarus and Russia; and neither Lithuania nor the NATO poses any threat to Belarus and Russia. So the idea of the drills is wrong in fact,” said to DELFI.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > In such a context the joint exercises of the two Lithuania’s neighbours reminded of the cold war to the minster.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > “It reminds me a breath of the cold war, when there really was a military confrontation between the East and the West, the NATO and the Soviet Union. But the NATO chose a different way long ago, and lives in the 21st century, but these exercises unfortunately remind the times of the cold war, not by the manoeuvres themselves, as all armies have to hold exercises, but by their spirit; or they are returning us to those times. If Russia seeks close friendly relations with the NATO, with the US and the EU countries, such exercises are hard to be explained in this context by anything but ideology, power display near the borders of Lithuania. I’d like to believe that with time understanding would come that the life has changed,” the minister noted.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > However, according to Rasa Juknevičienė, “these exercises do not pose any threat to Lithuania”.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > http://www.charter97.org/en/news/2009/9/30/22373/
                              > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > > > > > From: Damareisv
                              > > > > > > > To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:47 AM
                              > > > > > > > Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Re: Ukraine exposes Katyn executioners
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Larry,
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > Steve,
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                              > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
                              > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
                              > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
                              > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
                              > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
                              > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
                              > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                              > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                              > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > Steve,
                              > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
                              > > > > > > > > > > > _______
                              > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                              > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                              > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
                              > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
                              > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                              > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > > From the Associated Press
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
                              > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Laurence
                              Polish motorcade shoot was Georgia stunt Further adding to the atmosphere of almost Laurel & Hardy comic farce around Georgia s erratic President, who was
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 2, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Polish motorcade shoot was 'Georgia stunt'

                                Further adding to the atmosphere of almost Laurel & Hardy comic farce around Georgia's erratic President, who was filmed shortly after the Russian invasion (sic) in August by BBC actually swallowing and chewing on his tie, it has now emerged that an alleged shooting incident a week before the Brussels NATO meeting, involving the motorcade of the Georgian and Polish presidents was a staged 'stunt.'

                                http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Nato_Entry/nato_entry.html




                                --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Ukraine was furnishing weapons to Georgia which it used to invade South Ossetia. Poland was also supporting Georgia.
                                >
                                > ______
                                >
                                > Lavrentiy
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > PFP:
                                > >
                                > > the purpose of the Partnership for Peace is to increase stability, diminish threats to peace and build strengthened security relationships between individual Partner countries and NATO, as well as among Partner countries.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > SO NATO conducted exrcises in Georgia which a few months before attacked South Ossetia. That's some partneship.
                                > >
                                > > http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_50349.htm
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Ukraine and Georgia will never be invited to join NATO.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Steve,
                                > > >
                                > > > The goal of PIP is to create trust between NATO and other states in Europe and the former Soviet Union. NATO conducting excercises in a nation (Georgia) that started a war with another nation (South Ossetia) doesn't create trust.
                                > > >
                                > > > _____
                                > > >
                                > > > Lavrentiy
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Steve,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The excerice in Georgia should have bee postponed or cancelled:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Before the beginning of the exercises in Georgia, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev warned that, "NATO's plans to hold exercises in Georgia...are an open provocation. Exercises must not be held there where a war has been fought," and referred to the Alliance's behavior as "muscle-flexing."
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The Russian ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Anvar Azimov, said on May 8 that "NATO's ongoing exercise in Georgia is a downright provocation, since it is held in a region where a war was fought just months ago and where blood was spilt and civilians died." [1]
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > From:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13547
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > ______
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Lavrentiy
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Laurence,
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Yes they did as part of an exercise with an organization of some 23 countries called "Partnership for Peace" which is a NATO program. Guess who is a member of this organization? One hint, its capital is Moscow. Why don't you ask them why they are part of a organization that also includes Belarus, and ten other former members of the Soviet Union and participates in joint exercises with NATO countries? I thought you have been saying that Russia was supposed to be peace loving? Are you now suggesting otherwise?
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Steve,
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Georgia is not a NATO member, so why in May 2009 did NATO conduct exercises in Georgia?:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE5451FK20090506
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > http://www.georgiatimes.info/en/articles/11983.html
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azfPy3r5yb9w&refer=home
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Yes, there is a lot of insanity in this world.
                                > > > > > > _______
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Danuta,
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Joint military manoeuvers are relatively standard. Belarus and Russia are close allies. They have integrated their air defense forces. Their army and air force is a carbon copy of the russian forces on a much smaller scale. During the 2008 joint manoeuvers they committed a total of 8,500 people to the exercise. Its just an opportunity for the boys to play with their big toys.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > There may be small element of intimidation in this drill but I'm sure the Lithuanian defense minister will not be losing any sleep over it. The country is part of NATO. His comments are just political.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > ____
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Danuta Janina Wójcik <sandlily@> wrote:
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Steve, unfortunately, insanity still exists over the pond. :)
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Lithuanian Defence Minister: Military exercises in Belarus reminded of cold war
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > 30.09.2009
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > There came a breath of the cold war with the Belarusian-Russian army exercises near Lithuanian borders, as they contradict security reality completely, Lithuanian Defence Minister Rasa Juknevičienė states.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Despite of the fact that the concept of these exercises is wrong, they pose no threat to Lithuania, the minister believes.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Commenting to DELFI the army exercises held by Russia and Belarus next to the EU and the NATO borders, Rasa Juknevičienė noted with regret that they are out of the picture with current situation.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > “These drills are held every year, but it is a pity they are not in line with security reality at all. Neither Lithuania, nor the NATO intends to attack such countries as Belarus and Russia; and neither Lithuania nor the NATO poses any threat to Belarus and Russia. So the idea of the drills is wrong in fact,” said to DELFI.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > In such a context the joint exercises of the two Lithuania’s neighbours reminded of the cold war to the minster.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > “It reminds me a breath of the cold war, when there really was a military confrontation between the East and the West, the NATO and the Soviet Union. But the NATO chose a different way long ago, and lives in the 21st century, but these exercises unfortunately remind the times of the cold war, not by the manoeuvres themselves, as all armies have to hold exercises, but by their spirit; or they are returning us to those times. If Russia seeks close friendly relations with the NATO, with the US and the EU countries, such exercises are hard to be explained in this context by anything but ideology, power display near the borders of Lithuania. I’d like to believe that with time understanding would come that the life has changed,” the minister noted.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > However, according to Rasa Juknevičienė, “these exercises do not pose any threat to Lithuania”.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > http://www.charter97.org/en/news/2009/9/30/22373/
                                > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > > > > > > > From: Damareisv
                                > > > > > > > > To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:47 AM
                                > > > > > > > > Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Re: Ukraine exposes Katyn executioners
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Larry,
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
                                > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
                                > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > Steve,
                                > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
                                > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
                                > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
                                > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
                                > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
                                > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
                                > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                                > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
                                > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
                                > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
                                > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
                                > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
                                > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
                                > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                                > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve,
                                > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > _______
                                > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                                > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From the Associated Press
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
                                > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
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                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > > > > > >
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                                >
                              • Laurence
                                Georgia s President chews his tie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syKMsDS2OzE
                                Message 15 of 28 , Oct 2, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Georgia's President chews his tie:

                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syKMsDS2OzE





                                  --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Polish motorcade shoot was 'Georgia stunt'
                                  >
                                  > Further adding to the atmosphere of almost Laurel & Hardy comic farce around Georgia's erratic President, who was filmed shortly after the Russian invasion (sic) in August by BBC actually swallowing and chewing on his tie, it has now emerged that an alleged shooting incident a week before the Brussels NATO meeting, involving the motorcade of the Georgian and Polish presidents was a staged 'stunt.'
                                  >
                                  > http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Nato_Entry/nato_entry.html
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Ukraine was furnishing weapons to Georgia which it used to invade South Ossetia. Poland was also supporting Georgia.
                                  > >
                                  > > ______
                                  > >
                                  > > Lavrentiy
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > PFP:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > the purpose of the Partnership for Peace is to increase stability, diminish threats to peace and build strengthened security relationships between individual Partner countries and NATO, as well as among Partner countries.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > SO NATO conducted exrcises in Georgia which a few months before attacked South Ossetia. That's some partneship.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_50349.htm
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Ukraine and Georgia will never be invited to join NATO.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Steve,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > The goal of PIP is to create trust between NATO and other states in Europe and the former Soviet Union. NATO conducting excercises in a nation (Georgia) that started a war with another nation (South Ossetia) doesn't create trust.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > _____
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Lavrentiy
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Steve,
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > The excerice in Georgia should have bee postponed or cancelled:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Before the beginning of the exercises in Georgia, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev warned that, "NATO's plans to hold exercises in Georgia...are an open provocation. Exercises must not be held there where a war has been fought," and referred to the Alliance's behavior as "muscle-flexing."
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > The Russian ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Anvar Azimov, said on May 8 that "NATO's ongoing exercise in Georgia is a downright provocation, since it is held in a region where a war was fought just months ago and where blood was spilt and civilians died." [1]
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > From:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13547
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > ______
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Lavrentiy
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Laurence,
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Yes they did as part of an exercise with an organization of some 23 countries called "Partnership for Peace" which is a NATO program. Guess who is a member of this organization? One hint, its capital is Moscow. Why don't you ask them why they are part of a organization that also includes Belarus, and ten other former members of the Soviet Union and participates in joint exercises with NATO countries? I thought you have been saying that Russia was supposed to be peace loving? Are you now suggesting otherwise?
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Steve,
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Georgia is not a NATO member, so why in May 2009 did NATO conduct exercises in Georgia?:
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE5451FK20090506
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > http://www.georgiatimes.info/en/articles/11983.html
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azfPy3r5yb9w&refer=home
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Yes, there is a lot of insanity in this world.
                                  > > > > > > > _______
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Danuta,
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Joint military manoeuvers are relatively standard. Belarus and Russia are close allies. They have integrated their air defense forces. Their army and air force is a carbon copy of the russian forces on a much smaller scale. During the 2008 joint manoeuvers they committed a total of 8,500 people to the exercise. Its just an opportunity for the boys to play with their big toys.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > There may be small element of intimidation in this drill but I'm sure the Lithuanian defense minister will not be losing any sleep over it. The country is part of NATO. His comments are just political.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > ____
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
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                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Danuta Janina Wójcik <sandlily@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > Steve, unfortunately, insanity still exists over the pond. :)
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > Lithuanian Defence Minister: Military exercises in Belarus reminded of cold war
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > 30.09.2009
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > There came a breath of the cold war with the Belarusian-Russian army exercises near Lithuanian borders, as they contradict security reality completely, Lithuanian Defence Minister Rasa Juknevičienė states.
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > Despite of the fact that the concept of these exercises is wrong, they pose no threat to Lithuania, the minister believes.
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > Commenting to DELFI the army exercises held by Russia and Belarus next to the EU and the NATO borders, Rasa Juknevičienė noted with regret that they are out of the picture with current situation.
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > “These drills are held every year, but it is a pity they are not in line with security reality at all. Neither Lithuania, nor the NATO intends to attack such countries as Belarus and Russia; and neither Lithuania nor the NATO poses any threat to Belarus and Russia. So the idea of the drills is wrong in fact,” said to DELFI.
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > In such a context the joint exercises of the two Lithuania’s neighbours reminded of the cold war to the minster.
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > “It reminds me a breath of the cold war, when there really was a military confrontation between the East and the West, the NATO and the Soviet Union. But the NATO chose a different way long ago, and lives in the 21st century, but these exercises unfortunately remind the times of the cold war, not by the manoeuvres themselves, as all armies have to hold exercises, but by their spirit; or they are returning us to those times. If Russia seeks close friendly relations with the NATO, with the US and the EU countries, such exercises are hard to be explained in this context by anything but ideology, power display near the borders of Lithuania. I’d like to believe that with time understanding would come that the life has changed,” the minister noted.
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > However, according to Rasa Juknevičienė, “these exercises do not pose any threat to Lithuania”.
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > http://www.charter97.org/en/news/2009/9/30/22373/
                                  > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > > > > > > > > From: Damareisv
                                  > > > > > > > > > To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:47 AM
                                  > > > > > > > > > Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Re: Ukraine exposes Katyn executioners
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > Larry,
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
                                  > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
                                  > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > Steve,
                                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
                                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
                                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
                                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
                                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
                                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
                                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve,
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From the Associated Press
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
                                  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
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                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > > > > > > >
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                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Laurence
                                  Meanwhile, Putin said, if we catch them in the toilet we ll waste them there. http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DKe8dL902gC0
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Oct 2, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Meanwhile, Putin said, "if we catch them in the toilet we'll waste them there."


                                    http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DKe8dL902gC0



                                    --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Georgia's President chews his tie:
                                    >
                                    > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syKMsDS2OzE
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Polish motorcade shoot was 'Georgia stunt'
                                    > >
                                    > > Further adding to the atmosphere of almost Laurel & Hardy comic farce around Georgia's erratic President, who was filmed shortly after the Russian invasion (sic) in August by BBC actually swallowing and chewing on his tie, it has now emerged that an alleged shooting incident a week before the Brussels NATO meeting, involving the motorcade of the Georgian and Polish presidents was a staged 'stunt.'
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Nato_Entry/nato_entry.html
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Ukraine was furnishing weapons to Georgia which it used to invade South Ossetia. Poland was also supporting Georgia.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ______
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Lavrentiy
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > PFP:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > the purpose of the Partnership for Peace is to increase stability, diminish threats to peace and build strengthened security relationships between individual Partner countries and NATO, as well as among Partner countries.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > SO NATO conducted exrcises in Georgia which a few months before attacked South Ossetia. That's some partneship.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_50349.htm
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Ukraine and Georgia will never be invited to join NATO.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Steve,
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > The goal of PIP is to create trust between NATO and other states in Europe and the former Soviet Union. NATO conducting excercises in a nation (Georgia) that started a war with another nation (South Ossetia) doesn't create trust.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > _____
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Lavrentiy
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Steve,
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > The excerice in Georgia should have bee postponed or cancelled:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Before the beginning of the exercises in Georgia, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev warned that, "NATO's plans to hold exercises in Georgia...are an open provocation. Exercises must not be held there where a war has been fought," and referred to the Alliance's behavior as "muscle-flexing."
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > The Russian ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Anvar Azimov, said on May 8 that "NATO's ongoing exercise in Georgia is a downright provocation, since it is held in a region where a war was fought just months ago and where blood was spilt and civilians died." [1]
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > From:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13547
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > ______
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Laurence,
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Yes they did as part of an exercise with an organization of some 23 countries called "Partnership for Peace" which is a NATO program. Guess who is a member of this organization? One hint, its capital is Moscow. Why don't you ask them why they are part of a organization that also includes Belarus, and ten other former members of the Soviet Union and participates in joint exercises with NATO countries? I thought you have been saying that Russia was supposed to be peace loving? Are you now suggesting otherwise?
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Steve,
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Georgia is not a NATO member, so why in May 2009 did NATO conduct exercises in Georgia?:
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE5451FK20090506
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > http://www.georgiatimes.info/en/articles/11983.html
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azfPy3r5yb9w&refer=home
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Yes, there is a lot of insanity in this world.
                                    > > > > > > > > _______
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > Danuta,
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > Joint military manoeuvers are relatively standard. Belarus and Russia are close allies. They have integrated their air defense forces. Their army and air force is a carbon copy of the russian forces on a much smaller scale. During the 2008 joint manoeuvers they committed a total of 8,500 people to the exercise. Its just an opportunity for the boys to play with their big toys.
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > There may be small element of intimidation in this drill but I'm sure the Lithuanian defense minister will not be losing any sleep over it. The country is part of NATO. His comments are just political.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > ____
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
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                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, Danuta Janina Wójcik <sandlily@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > Steve, unfortunately, insanity still exists over the pond. :)
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > Lithuanian Defence Minister: Military exercises in Belarus reminded of cold war
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > 30.09.2009
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > There came a breath of the cold war with the Belarusian-Russian army exercises near Lithuanian borders, as they contradict security reality completely, Lithuanian Defence Minister Rasa Juknevičienė states.
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > Despite of the fact that the concept of these exercises is wrong, they pose no threat to Lithuania, the minister believes.
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > Commenting to DELFI the army exercises held by Russia and Belarus next to the EU and the NATO borders, Rasa Juknevičienė noted with regret that they are out of the picture with current situation.
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > “These drills are held every year, but it is a pity they are not in line with security reality at all. Neither Lithuania, nor the NATO intends to attack such countries as Belarus and Russia; and neither Lithuania nor the NATO poses any threat to Belarus and Russia. So the idea of the drills is wrong in fact,” said to DELFI.
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > In such a context the joint exercises of the two Lithuania’s neighbours reminded of the cold war to the minster.
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > “It reminds me a breath of the cold war, when there really was a military confrontation between the East and the West, the NATO and the Soviet Union. But the NATO chose a different way long ago, and lives in the 21st century, but these exercises unfortunately remind the times of the cold war, not by the manoeuvres themselves, as all armies have to hold exercises, but by their spirit; or they are returning us to those times. If Russia seeks close friendly relations with the NATO, with the US and the EU countries, such exercises are hard to be explained in this context by anything but ideology, power display near the borders of Lithuania. I’d like to believe that with time understanding would come that the life has changed,” the minister noted.
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > However, according to Rasa Juknevičienė, “these exercises do not pose any threat to Lithuania”.
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > http://www.charter97.org/en/news/2009/9/30/22373/
                                    > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > > > > > > > > > From: Damareisv
                                    > > > > > > > > > > To: GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:47 AM
                                    > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [GaliciaPoland-Ukraine] Re: Ukraine exposes Katyn executioners
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > Larry,
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > Cervantes' Don Quixote makes for very interesting reading and I've enjoyed it. Its good reading for everyone. Basically the character is an old man who envisions himself as some kind of a romantic and idealistic hero and goes off to fight imaginary foes (tilting at windmills). His entire world is imaginary. Everyone around him sees him as an old fool who is obviously insane. To make this world of his to function, they work to deceive him.
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > The leaders of Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Russia are NOT insane old fools who live in an imaginary world. They are quite sane and live in the real world of threats, interests and opportunities. They are not the Don Quixotes of the world. To imply that perceived threats from Russia are totally imaginary is itself a fantasy. Those four countries have a modern history of wars, conquests, occupation subjugation with each other. Of course they are going to be on the look out for more of the same.
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > Each of those countries has its own fundamental interests and those interests come first. Those geopolitical interests are at the core of today's conflicts. Each of those countries will make statements and take actions that they feel are in the best interests of their country even if those statements are obviously false and the actions wrong.
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > Each of them has a domestic audience who need and demand a certain amount of posturing and perceived heroism or injury. Those politicians cater to that. Its normal. It happens in every country.
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > It will take a lot of effort to overcome mistrust. Its not going to happen quickly and as long as each of them make absurd statements it will not happen at all.
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                                    > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > Don Quixote tilting at windmills:
                                    > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJh_QHZRlhY
                                    > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve,
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > Poland, Ukraine, & Georgia vis-a-vis Russia are interested in politics and "settling scores" and not in detente. They remind me of Don Quxite's tilting at windmills.
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > "What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > "Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > "Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry, of course all countries should seek justice evenhandedly but in the real world it doesn't happen very often.
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as how Poland would act if Polanski was a Russian, i'm not trying to defend the government of Poland. I am trying to avoid blanket stereotypes of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians Jews and all others. As ethnic peoples, none are always pure and wonderful and none are always evil. Their governments may be occasionally stupid but that is a different issue.
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peoples in eastern Europe seem to have unbelievably long memories of defeats, slights and hurts doing back over many hundreds of years. Just ask the Serbs about their battles with the turks in 1389 or the bulgarians aobut their battles with turks in 1370. They are still "fresh". They are still remembered. And that colors their relationships to this day.
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same goes with relations between the Poles and Russians, the Ukrainians and Poles and Russians, and all of them with the Turks etc etc. Too much hatred and mistrust.
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apologies with honest efforts to clear the air with truthfulness are key, and there is not enough of that happening in eastern Europe.
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets keep any more talk about polanski off this site. He doesn't belong here. If that were my 13 year old daughter he raped, he would not be worrying about extradition, or anything else.
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve,
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody, including Poland, should seek justice evenhandedly. If Polanski was a Russian Poland would say to Switzerland "send him back to the USA to face justice."
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lavrentiy
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
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                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Damareisv" <stevezerkis@> wrote:
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                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its Poland and France. Both countries have protested. Polanski has dual French and Polish citizenship. Polanski pleaded guilty to the crime of rape of a 13 year old girl, and spent 42 days in jail undergoing psychiatric testing. His plea of guilty was supposed to return him a sentence of "time served". He never received his sentence because he fled the country. His later excuse was that he was concerned that the judge might impose a further jail sentence. Just because he has been on the run for 30 plus years does not make his crime any less. "If you do the crime, you got to do the time".
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                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I certainly don't agree with the Polish position that Polanski should be freed, but to equate the Polish government's reaction to his crime in any way with their reaction to the soviet genocide of Polish people just doesn't make any sense.
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                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Zerkis
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                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In GaliciaPoland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence" <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
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                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poland wants the Russian Federation and Russian people put on trial for what Stalin did, but for Polanski, who drugged and raped a 13 year girl, Poland wants him freed:
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                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From the Associated Press
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                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poland and France plan joint appeal seeking release, clemency for director Roman Polanski
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                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WARSAW, Poland …quot; A Polish news agency is reporting that Poland and France plan a joint appeal to try to get filmmaker Roman Polanski released from his detention in Switzerland and shown clemency by the United States.
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                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Polish news agency PAP quoted Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski as saying Sunday that he spoke with his French counterpart Bernard Kouchner and they plan to ask Swiss authorities to release Polanski from his arrest and ask the U.S. to offer him clemency.
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                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Oscar-winning director was arrested by Swiss police as he flew in Saturday for the Zurich Film Festival. Polanski faces possible extradition to the United States for having sex with a 13-year-old girl in 1977.
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                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Polanski spent his youth in Poland and has lived for the past three decades in France.
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                                    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jyC1g_jOzAt9axqx319x984wwTWA
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                                    > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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