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Re: Nobility - Roszkowski

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  • P Umrysh
    Question...In the Ukraine are landowners required to serve in the military? Also, what is required to become a pensioner? Thanks, Preston ... to ... Consul;
    Message 1 of 12 , May 4, 2007
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      Question...In the Ukraine are landowners required to serve in the
      military? Also, what is required to become a pensioner?

      Thanks,

      Preston



      --- In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "krupniak"
      <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > From:
      >
      > http://www.heraldica.org/topics/odegard/titlefaq.htm
      >
      >
      > Romans recognized three orders: patricians, equestrians and
      > plebeians, and earlier, before the foundation of the republic, a
      > fourth: royalty. Added to this, there was the concept of nobilis;
      to
      > be noble meant you were descended from someone who had been
      Consul;
      > being a patrician was necessary to become Consul (though you could
      > buy your way in), but to be noble was ineffably grander, at least
      to
      > the Roman way of thinking. This has been turned around a bit in
      > Italy; in Italian cities today, a "patriciate" exists which is
      > considered to be above "mere" nobility.
      >
      > These notions of the Romans apply to present-day parlance. In the
      > British system, one can discriminate between royalty, nobility,
      > knights, gentry and commons: five grades. The Germans tend to
      regard
      > certain of what the British regard as gentry as noble, and at the
      > highest levels, what the British define as noble resembles what
      the
      > Germans regard as "princely" and in general, continental systems
      as a
      > whole tend to have a broader definition of "noble".
      >
      > In essence, the nobility were the landowners. To be a landowner
      you
      > had to be prepared to defend your right to own that land, and with
      > the progressive disorders that lead to the fall of the Western
      Roman
      > Empire and the development of the feudal system in Europe,
      nobility
      > became synonymous with the military caste -- an essentially self-
      > appointed caste.
      >
      > In the West, it is nearly impossible to trace any noble lineage
      back
      > much before AD 800 (though the old Gaelic nobility of Ireland has
      a
      > special claim to antiquity here); anything before 1100 is
      remarkable.
      > The organized system of titles we have today is a rather late
      > development, but "count", and "prince" go back to the Roman
      Empire.
      > Only when it was recognized that one might have "betters" (i.e.,
      with
      > the organization of nation-states) did the nobles start paying
      > attention to titles, styles, and pedigrees.
      >
      > A distinction needs to be made between "nobility" and "peerage".
      In
      > the British system, a peer is the holder of the title, while a
      noble
      > is a member of a family headed by a peer. In the UK, such family
      > members, while "noble", are still technically common, which is not
      > necessarily the case elsewhere. More narrowly, a peer also sits in
      > parliament, as with the British House of Lords or the former
      French
      > House of Peers. There are some titles in the United Kingdom (e.g.,
      > the Irish peerage, when the peer lacks another English, Scots or
      UK
      > title) which do not permit one to sit in the House of Lords; thus,
      in
      > Scotland, the distinction of a "Lord of Parliament".
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "krupniak"
      > <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Or, see:
      > >
      > > http://www.pgsa.org/TransTips.pdf
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > krupniak wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > nobilis - noble, well-known.
      > > >
      > > > When shown as occupation, nobilis means the person was a free
      > > person
      > > > and (probably) owned a parcel of land.
      > > >
      > > > See:
      > > >
      > > > http://www.afhs.ab.ca/aids/talks/Eastern_Europe3.pdf
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > _______
      > > >
      > > > Lavrentiy
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > krupniak wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Hello Cathy,
      > > > >
      > > > > The meaning of noble has been discussed in this forum
      > > before.
      > > > > Search the archived messages of this group for terms such as
      > > > > nobility and noble.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ________
      > > > >
      > > > > Lavrentiy
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > kayhfn wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hello Group, In the church birth and basptismal records it
      > > states
      > > > > Noble
      > > > > > as the Occupation for many of my relatives. Does anyone
      know
      > > the
      > > > > > meaning of this?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I have found relatives at last!! Thank you to all that
      have
      > > > > helped.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thanks
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Cathy
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • krupniak
      ... ******** Do you mean during the Austrian-period? ______ Lavrentiy
      Message 2 of 12 , May 5, 2007
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        P Umrysh wrote:
        >
        > Question...In the Ukraine are landowners required to serve in the
        > military? Also, what is required to become a pensioner?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Preston

        ********

        Do you mean during the Austrian-period?


        ______

        Lavrentiy
      • P Umrysh
        Yes or during any period. Did they offer a pension program then? Preston
        Message 3 of 12 , May 5, 2007
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          Yes or during any period.

          Did they offer a pension program then?

          Preston


          --- In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "krupniak"
          <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
          >
          > P Umrysh wrote:
          > >
          > > Question...In the Ukraine are landowners required to serve in the
          > > military? Also, what is required to become a pensioner?
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > >
          > > Preston
          >
          > ********
          >
          > Do you mean during the Austrian-period?
          >
          >
          > ______
          >
          > Lavrentiy
          >
        • krupniak
          Hello Preston, The 1906 Parliament passed social reforms. Part of the reform was pension for state employees and officers of the military. See:
          Message 4 of 12 , May 6, 2007
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            Hello Preston,

            The 1906 Parliament passed social reforms. Part of the reform was
            pension for state employees and officers of the military.

            See: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~semp/strength2.htm


            "A Polish trade union leader in Galicia put things very clearly when
            he described his railwaymen colleagues as the First World War was
            beginning:

            Everyone trembled at the mere thought that Austria might undergo a
            catastrophe, and no one thought that she could possibly
            disintegrate, ‘And who will recognise my years of service? Who will
            pay my pension if Austria falls? No, it is impossible. Austria must
            win.’ These were the questions and the desires of the railwaymen,
            both socialist and National Democrat. This moreover was how almost
            everyone in Galicia understood the situation."



            ______

            Lavrentiy


            P Umrysh" <pumrysh@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yes or during any period.
            >
            > Did they offer a pension program then?
            >
            > Preston
            >
            >
            > --- In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "krupniak"
            > <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
            > >
            > > P Umrysh wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Question...In the Ukraine are landowners required to serve in
            the
            > > > military? Also, what is required to become a pensioner?
            > > >
            > > > Thanks,
            > > >
            > > > Preston
            > >
            > > ********
            > >
            > > Do you mean during the Austrian-period?
            > >
            > >
            > > ______
            > >
            > > Lavrentiy
            > >
            >
          • krupniak
            The Austrian social security system was created based on the Bismarckian model. In 1887 insurance for work-injury was introduced. It was followed by health
            Message 5 of 12 , May 6, 2007
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              The Austrian social security system was created based on the
              Bismarckian model. In 1887 insurance for work-injury was introduced.
              It was followed by health insurance for workers in 1888 and mandatory
              pension insurance for public employees in 1906.



              http://64.233.167.104/search?
              q=cache:xz8iRZSo_yEJ:wbln0018.worldbank.org/HDNet/hddocs.nsf/2d5135ecb
              f351de6852566a90069b8b6/c01b5a09541cf06885256a9c006b384a/%
              24FILE/Austria%2520by%
              2520Hungary.pdf+1906+Austrian+social+reforms&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=16&gl=us






              --- In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "krupniak"
              <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Preston,
              >
              > The 1906 Parliament passed social reforms. Part of the reform
              was
              > pension for state employees and officers of the military.
              >
              > See: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~semp/strength2.htm
              >
              >
              > "A Polish trade union leader in Galicia put things very clearly
              when
              > he described his railwaymen colleagues as the First World War was
              > beginning:
              >
              > Everyone trembled at the mere thought that Austria might undergo a
              > catastrophe, and no one thought that she could possibly
              > disintegrate, ‘And who will recognise my years of service? Who will
              > pay my pension if Austria falls? No, it is impossible. Austria must
              > win.’ These were the questions and the desires of the railwaymen,
              > both socialist and National Democrat. This moreover was how almost
              > everyone in Galicia understood the situation."
              >
              >
              >
              > ______
              >
              > Lavrentiy
              >
              >
              > P Umrysh" <pumrysh@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yes or during any period.
              > >
              > > Did they offer a pension program then?
              > >
              > > Preston
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "krupniak"
              > > <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > P Umrysh wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Question...In the Ukraine are landowners required to serve in
              > the
              > > > > military? Also, what is required to become a pensioner?
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks,
              > > > >
              > > > > Preston
              > > >
              > > > ********
              > > >
              > > > Do you mean during the Austrian-period?
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ______
              > > >
              > > > Lavrentiy
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • P Umrysh
              Thanks. As far as compulsary military service, I read that it was the case here: http://www.polishroots.org/gendobry/PDF/GenDobry_VII_7.pdf Is that right?
              Message 6 of 12 , May 6, 2007
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                Thanks.

                As far as compulsary military service, I read that it was the case
                here:

                http://www.polishroots.org/gendobry/PDF/GenDobry_VII_7.pdf

                Is that right?

                Reason for asking is that my grandfather left the Ukraine around 1910
                to avoid the service.

                Preston




                --- In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "krupniak"
                <Lkrupnak@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > The Austrian social security system was created based on the
                > Bismarckian model. In 1887 insurance for work-injury was
                introduced.
                > It was followed by health insurance for workers in 1888 and
                mandatory
                > pension insurance for public employees in 1906.
                >
                >
                >
                > http://64.233.167.104/search?
                >
                q=cache:xz8iRZSo_yEJ:wbln0018.worldbank.org/HDNet/hddocs.nsf/2d5135ecb
                > f351de6852566a90069b8b6/c01b5a09541cf06885256a9c006b384a/%
                > 24FILE/Austria%2520by%
                >
                2520Hungary.pdf+1906+Austrian+social+reforms&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=16&gl=us
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "krupniak"
                > <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello Preston,
                > >
                > > The 1906 Parliament passed social reforms. Part of the reform
                > was
                > > pension for state employees and officers of the military.
                > >
                > > See: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~semp/strength2.htm
                > >
                > >
                > > "A Polish trade union leader in Galicia put things very clearly
                > when
                > > he described his railwaymen colleagues as the First World War was
                > > beginning:
                > >
                > > Everyone trembled at the mere thought that Austria might undergo
                a
                > > catastrophe, and no one thought that she could possibly
                > > disintegrate, ‘And who will recognise my years of service? Who
                will
                > > pay my pension if Austria falls? No, it is impossible. Austria
                must
                > > win.’ These were the questions and the desires of the
                railwaymen,
                > > both socialist and National Democrat. This moreover was how
                almost
                > > everyone in Galicia understood the situation."
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ______
                > >
                > > Lavrentiy
                > >
                > >
                > > P Umrysh" <pumrysh@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Yes or during any period.
                > > >
                > > > Did they offer a pension program then?
                > > >
                > > > Preston
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "krupniak"
                > > > <Lkrupnak@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > P Umrysh wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Question...In the Ukraine are landowners required to serve
                in
                > > the
                > > > > > military? Also, what is required to become a pensioner?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Thanks,
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Preston
                > > > >
                > > > > ********
                > > > >
                > > > > Do you mean during the Austrian-period?
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > ______
                > > > >
                > > > > Lavrentiy
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
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