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"Sabordash, Kiel Province, Russia"

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  • wfhoffman
    Hi, ... One possibility worth investigating is that this refers to a place in Kielce gubernia (province), which was in Russian Poland. I can t think of any
    Message 1 of 4 , Sep 1, 2006
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      Hi,

      Sylvia wrote:

      > I was trying to assist someone that has some incorrect information on his
      > family.
      > The information has, "Sabordash, Kiel Province, Russia".

      One possibility worth investigating is that this refers to a place in Kielce
      gubernia (province), which was in Russian Poland. I can't think of any other
      province of the Russian Empire with a name beginning Kiel-, and it's
      conceivable someone might have abbreviated "Kielce" as "Kiel." Of course, if
      the place in question was in the Russian Empire, it couldn't have been in
      Galicia -- but Kielce gubernia did lie just north of the border between
      Galicia and the Russian partition.

      I'm afraid the name of the place is still going to be a problem, however.
      "Sabordash" does not show up in any of my sources, and that form is not
      viable as a Polish name. It's probably been mangled somewhere along the
      line. Phonetically it might be connected with a place name beginning
      Zabrod-, but the "-ash" part is hard to account for.

      Obviously if the place name is way off, we can't assume the "Kiel province"
      part is reliable, either. But in my experience the names of provincial
      centers were less likely to be mangled past all recognition, simply because
      there weren't so many of them. With individual towns and villages there's no
      telling how badly they could be distorted; but more often than not you can
      puzzle out the name of the province.

      Don't take my word for gospel, but I thought this was a suggestion worth
      making. The place you're looking for may not be in Russia at all, but rather
      in one of the former western provinces of the Russian Empire. And of those
      provinces, Kielce is the best bet.

      Hope that helps a bit.

      Fred Hoffman
    • Dennis Benarz
      If Kiel is abbreviated or truncated, then why not Sabordash as well? If such is the case, then Zaborowice Duz~e located about 17 miles NNW of Kielce
      Message 2 of 4 , Sep 1, 2006
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        If "Kiel" is abbreviated or truncated, then why not "Sabordash" as
        well? If such is the case, then Zaborowice Duz~e located about 17
        miles NNW of Kielce becomes a candidate. The fully restored
        description would then read "Zaborowice Duz~e, Kielce Province,
        Russia".

        Dennis

        --- In Galicia_Poland-Ukraine@yahoogroups.com, "wfhoffman"
        <WFHoffman@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > Sylvia wrote:
        >
        > > I was trying to assist someone that has some incorrect
        information on his
        > > family.
        > > The information has, "Sabordash, Kiel Province, Russia".
        >
        > One possibility worth investigating is that this refers to a place
        in Kielce
        > gubernia (province), which was in Russian Poland. I can't think of
        any other
        > province of the Russian Empire with a name beginning Kiel-, and
        it's
        > conceivable someone might have abbreviated "Kielce" as "Kiel." Of
        course, if
        > the place in question was in the Russian Empire, it couldn't have
        been in
        > Galicia -- but Kielce gubernia did lie just north of the border
        between
        > Galicia and the Russian partition.
        >
        > I'm afraid the name of the place is still going to be a problem,
        however.
        > "Sabordash" does not show up in any of my sources, and that form is
        not
        > viable as a Polish name. It's probably been mangled somewhere along
        the
        > line. Phonetically it might be connected with a place name
        beginning
        > Zabrod-, but the "-ash" part is hard to account for.
        >
        > Obviously if the place name is way off, we can't assume the "Kiel
        province"
        > part is reliable, either. But in my experience the names of
        provincial
        > centers were less likely to be mangled past all recognition, simply
        because
        > there weren't so many of them. With individual towns and villages
        there's no
        > telling how badly they could be distorted; but more often than not
        you can
        > puzzle out the name of the province.
        >
        > Don't take my word for gospel, but I thought this was a suggestion
        worth
        > making. The place you're looking for may not be in Russia at all,
        but rather
        > in one of the former western provinces of the Russian Empire. And
        of those
        > provinces, Kielce is the best bet.
        >
        > Hope that helps a bit.
        >
        > Fred Hoffman
        >
      • wfhoffman
        Hi, Dennis Benarz wroteL ... It s worth a try! That would at least account for the -dash part, phonetically speaking. Once you realize a name has been
        Message 3 of 4 , Sep 1, 2006
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          Hi,

          Dennis Benarz wroteL

          > If "Kiel" is abbreviated or truncated, then why not "Sabordash" as
          > well? If such is the case, then Zaborowice Duz~e located about 17
          > miles NNW of Kielce becomes a candidate. The fully restored
          > description would then read "Zaborowice Duz~e, Kielce Province,
          > Russia".

          It's worth a try! That would at least account for the "-dash" part,
          phonetically speaking.

          Once you realize a name has been mangled, it gets terribly difficult,
          because there's no way to tell how badly mangled it was -- maybe just a
          little, maybe a lot. If it was mangled a lot, all you can do is hope the
          version you have preserves some phonetic fidelity to the original, and then
          start looking for places that might match up. "Sabordash" doesn't sound
          Polish at all, but then it doesn't sound Russian either. "Zabor. Duze, Kiel.
          province, Russia" is a long shot; but in this situation it sounds to me as
          if long shots are about all we have.

          It's worth making the suggestion, at least. You never know when something
          you say will cause a light bulb to switch on. Many a time I've said "Try
          this" and someone wrote back later to say, "Your suggestion was off-base,
          but it did get me pointed in the right direction." All we can do is share
          ideas and hope one of them pays off.

          Fred Hoffman
        • krupniak
          Near Kielce perhaps one of the following places is Sabordash : Zagórze 50°51 N 20°40 E E M U Poland 1.2 miles N Zagrody 50°50 N 20°32 E E M U Poland
          Message 4 of 4 , Sep 1, 2006
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            Near Kielce perhaps one of the following places is "Sabordash":



            Zagórze 50°51'N 20°40'E E M U Poland 1.2 miles N
            Zagrody 50°50'N 20°32'E E M U Poland 5.8 miles W
            Zalesie 50°51'N 20°32'E E M U Poland 5.9 miles W
            Zgórsko 50°49'N 20°32'E E M U Poland 5.9 miles W
            Zam³ynie Kostom³oty 50°55'N 20°35'E E M U Poland 6.8 miles NNW
            Zbrza 50°44'N 20°35'E E M U Poland 7.8 miles SSW
            Zagnañsk Zab³ocie 50°57'N 20°40'E E M U Poland 8.1 miles N
            Zagnañsk Jaworze, Jaworze 50°57'N 20°40'E E M U Poland 8.1 miles N
            Zagnañsk Siod³a 50°57'N 20°39'E E M U Poland 8.1 miles N
            Zawada 50°51'N 20°28'E E M U Poland 8.8 miles W
            Zelejowa 50°49'N 20°28'E E M U Poland 8.8 miles W
            Zagnañsk Œciêgno, Zagnañsk Œciêgna 50°58'N 20°41'E E M U Poland 9.2
            miles N
            Zaborze 50°42'N 20°41'E E M U Poland 9.2 miles S
            Zaszosie 50°58'N 20°42'E E M U Poland 9.3 miles N
            Zagnañsk Zache³mie 50°58'N 20°42'E E M U Poland 9.3 miles N
            Zagnañsk Lekomin 50°58'N 20°42'E E M U Poland 9.3 miles N
            Zagnañsk Gruszka 50°58'N 20°42'E E M U Poland 9.3 miles N
            Zache³mie 50°58'N 20°42'E E M U Poland 9.3 miles N
            Zagnañsk Chrusty 50°59'N 20°40'E E M U Poland 10.4 miles N
            Zagnañsk W¹sosze, Zagnañsk W¹sosza 50°59'N 20°41'E E M U Poland 10.4
            miles N
            Zagnañsk 50°59'N 20°41'E E M U Poland 10.4 miles N
            Zalezianka 50°59'N 20°45'E E M U Poland 11.0 miles NNE
            Zaskale 50°58'N 20°49'E E M U Poland 11.3 miles NE
            Zagórze 50°58'N 20°49'E E M U Poland 11.3 miles NE
            ¯erniki 50°45'N 20°24'E E M U Poland 13.0 miles WSW
            Zofiówka 50°50'N 20°58'E E M U Poland 13.1 miles E
            Zaogrodzie 50°39'N 20°48'E E M U Poland 13.9 miles SSE
            Zaj¹czków 50°52'N 20°21'E E M U Poland 14.0 miles W
            Zaroœle 50°47'N 20°20'E E M U Poland 14.9 miles WSW
            Zrêcze Ma³e 50°37'N 20°47'E E M U Poland 15.8 miles SSE
            Zakrucze 50°50'N 20°18'E E M U Poland 16.0 miles W
            ¯ydówek 50°36'N 20°38'E E M U Poland 16.2 miles S
            ¯ydów 50°36'N 20°38'E E M U Poland 16.2 miles S
            Z³ota Woda 50°47'N 21°02'E E M U Poland 16.4 miles ESE
            Zarzecze 50°54'N 21°02'E E M U Poland 16.6 miles ENE
            Zaborowice Du¿e, Zaborowice 51°03'N 20°29'E E M U Poland 17.0 miles
            NNW
            Zrêcze Du¿e, Zrecze 50°36'N 20°48'E E M U Poland 17.1 miles SSE
            Zazdroœæ 51°02'N 20°25'E E M U Poland 17.6 miles NW
            Zastawie 51°03'N 20°27'E E M U Poland 17.7 miles NNW
            Zarêby 50°47'N 21°04'E E M U Poland 17.8 miles E
            Zamkowa Wola, Wola Zamkowa 50°49'N 21°05'E E M U Poland 18.2 miles
            E
            Z³otniki 50°46'N 20°15'E E M U Poland 18.8 miles WSW
            ¯yciny 50°39'N 21°00'E E M U Poland 19.3 miles SE
            Zofiówka 50°36'N 20°55'E E M U Poland 19.5 miles SE
            Zawada 50°34'N 20°49'E E M U Poland 19.5 miles SSE
            Zbrojów 51°07'N 20°43'E E M U Poland 19.7 miles N
            ¯arczyce Du¿e 50°48'N 20°13'E E M U Poland 19.8 miles W
            Zalesie 50°43'N 21°05'E E M U Poland 19.9 miles ESE
            Zagrody 50°34'N 20°51'E E M U Poland 20.1 miles SSE
            ¯arczyce Ma³e 50°47'N 20°12'E E M U Poland 20.7 miles W
            ¯arczyce 50°47'N 20°12'E E M U Poland 20.7 miles W
            Zbielutka, Zbelutka 50°44'N 21°07'E E M U Poland 20.8 miles ESE
            Zielonki 50°38'N 20°17'E E M U Poland 21.7 miles SW
            Zwierzyniec 50°31'N 20°43'E E M U Poland 22.0 miles S
            Zegartowice 50°33'N 20°24'E E M U Poland 22.8 miles SSW
            Zapniów 50°58'N 21°09'E E M U Poland 23.0 miles ENE
            Zdunów 51°10'N 20°37'E E M U Poland 23.1 miles N
            Zalesie 50°47'N 20°08'E E M U Poland 23.5 miles W
            Zakrzów 50°46'N 20°08'E E M U Poland 23.7 miles W
            Zagaje 50°34'N 20°19'E E M U Poland 23.9 miles SW
            Zbrodzice 50°29'N 20°46'E E M U Poland 24.6 miles S
            Zaborze 50°30'N 20°53'E E M U Poland 24.9 miles SSE
            Zaj¹czkowice 50°53'N 21°14'E E M U Poland 24.9 miles E
            Zakrzów 50°29'N 20°31'E E M U Poland 25.0 miles SSW
            Zagaje Boleszyñskie 50°57'N 21°13'E E M U Poland 25.3 miles ENE
            Zapusty 50°32'N 21°00'E E M U Poland 25.3 miles SE
            Zdanowice 50°40'N 20°09'E E M U Poland 25.3 miles WSW
            Zagrody 50°36'N 21°07'E E M U Poland 25.4 miles SE
            Zychy 51°06'N 20°15'E E M U Poland 25.8 miles NW
            Zagórze 50°37'N 20°11'E E M U Poland 25.9 miles SW
            ¯erniki Górne 50°28'N 20°48'E E M U Poland 26.0 miles SSE
            ¯erniki Dolne 50°30'N 20°57'E E M U Poland 26.1 miles SSE
            ¯erniki 50°30'N 20°57'E E M U Poland 26.1 miles SSE
            ¯erniki 50°47'N 21°16'E E M U Poland 26.4 miles E
            Zagajówek 50°29'N 20°25'E E M U Poland 26.5 miles SSW
            Zagajów 50°29'N 20°25'E E M U Poland 26.5 miles SSW
            Zwola 50°52'N 21°17'E E M U Poland 27.0 miles E
            Zabrody 50°58'N 20°04'E E M U Poland 27.7 miles WNW
            Zagoœæ 50°26'N 20°37'E E M U Poland 27.7 miles S
            Ziemblice 50°33'N 21°07'E E M U Poland 27.8 miles SE
            Zaldów 50°44'N 21°17'E E M U Poland 27.8 miles ESE
            Zbijów 51°11'N 20°59'E E M U Poland 27.8 miles NNE
            Zbludowice 50°26'N 20°45'E E M U Poland 27.9 miles S
            Zbijów Ma³y, Zbijów 51°10'N 21°02'E E M U Poland 28.0 miles NE
            Zagumnie 50°36'N 21°12'E E M U Poland 28.3 miles SE
            Zagórzyce 50°26'N 20°29'E E M U Poland 28.8 miles SSW
            Zagoœæ-Stara, Stara Zagoœæ 50°25'N 20°36'E E M U Poland 28.9 miles
            S
            Zimnowoda 50°38'N 21°15'E E M U Poland 29.0 miles ESE
            Zaostrów 51°02'N 20°04'E E M U Poland 29.5 miles WNW
            Number of matches = 89



            ----------------------------------------------------------------------

            "wfhoffman" <WFHoffman@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > Sylvia wrote:
            >
            > > I was trying to assist someone that has some incorrect
            information on his
            > > family.
            > > The information has, "Sabordash, Kiel Province, Russia".
            >
            > One possibility worth investigating is that this refers to a place
            in Kielce
            > gubernia (province), which was in Russian Poland. I can't think of
            any other
            > province of the Russian Empire with a name beginning Kiel-, and
            it's
            > conceivable someone might have abbreviated "Kielce" as "Kiel." Of
            course, if
            > the place in question was in the Russian Empire, it couldn't have
            been in
            > Galicia -- but Kielce gubernia did lie just north of the border
            between
            > Galicia and the Russian partition.
            >
            > I'm afraid the name of the place is still going to be a problem,
            however.
            > "Sabordash" does not show up in any of my sources, and that form is
            not
            > viable as a Polish name. It's probably been mangled somewhere along
            the
            > line. Phonetically it might be connected with a place name
            beginning
            > Zabrod-, but the "-ash" part is hard to account for.
            >
            > Obviously if the place name is way off, we can't assume the "Kiel
            province"
            > part is reliable, either. But in my experience the names of
            provincial
            > centers were less likely to be mangled past all recognition, simply
            because
            > there weren't so many of them. With individual towns and villages
            there's no
            > telling how badly they could be distorted; but more often than not
            you can
            > puzzle out the name of the province.
            >
            > Don't take my word for gospel, but I thought this was a suggestion
            worth
            > making. The place you're looking for may not be in Russia at all,
            but rather
            > in one of the former western provinces of the Russian Empire. And
            of those
            > provinces, Kielce is the best bet.
            >
            > Hope that helps a bit.
            >
            > Fred Hoffman
            >
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