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Re: [GPSL] Balloon Location Challenge

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  • Pete Lilja
    Yikes! While there are far more qualified folks than I at doing the math for a grid to locate it I m surprised it s not there. Last position report from 1600
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 2, 2010
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      Yikes!  While there are far more qualified folks than I at doing the math for a grid to locate it I'm surprised it's not there.  Last position report from 1600 (what's the AGL height?) it shouldn't be too far away. 

      I have a lot of experience finding downed rockets at from that relatively low height and low ground speed I can't believe it too far from that point.  I have learned that quite often every bit of a payload, parachute and harnesses will get sucked all the way to the ground with nothing draped up and over crops and visible from very far away..

      Was there any evidence of others being in the field who may have picked it up?

      Good luck!

      Pete
      KC0GPB

      On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Keith Kaiser <wa0tjt@...> wrote:
       

      Today Deb and I went out to look for the week-lost W0B-11 balloon we launched from the BSA Centennial Campout last weekend. We didn't find it. It's here;

      http://aprs.fi/?call=w0b-11&mt=roadmap&z=11&timerange=5000

      Above is the last position report from the balloon according to aprs.fi, it's also exactly where we started our search today. I used its last position, speed, altitude, direction, etc. to predict a landing spot, it wasn't there either.

      I'd like input from any of you who care to help, to give me a new projected touchdown location. Deb and I did a two hour grid sweep of the location and didn't find the balloon. I'm not asking you to go out and find it (unless you want to), what I'm asking for is an alternate touchdown location. Our grid sweep went North an additional 500 feet, then worked East much more than that. The wind that day was very mild at this location and out of the West. This is a very large soy-bean field, the plants mostly brown are about 3 feet high.

      Good luck and thanks for any help you care to provide.


    • Keith Kaiser
      The AGL is 640 feet, at the location of the last transmission.
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 2, 2010
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        The AGL is 640 feet, at the location of the last transmission.



        On Oct 2, 2010, at 7:47 PM, Pete Lilja wrote:

         

        Yikes!  While there are far more qualified folks than I at doing the math for a grid to locate it I'm surprised it's not there.  Last position report from 1600 (what's the AGL height?) it shouldn't be too far away. 

        I have a lot of experience finding downed rockets at from that relatively low height and low ground speed I can't believe it too far from that point.  I have learned that quite often every bit of a payload, parachute and harnesses will get sucked all the way to the ground with nothing draped up and over crops and visible from very far away..

        Was there any evidence of others being in the field who may have picked it up?

        Good luck!

        Pete
        KC0GPB

        On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Keith Kaiser <wa0tjt@...> wrote:
         

        Today Deb and I went out to look for the week-lost W0B-11 balloon we launched from the BSA Centennial Campout last weekend. We didn't find it. It's here;

        http://aprs.fi/?call=w0b-11&mt=roadmap&z=11&timerange=5000

        Above is the last position report from the balloon according to aprs.fi, it's also exactly where we started our search today. I used its last position, speed, altitude, direction, etc. to predict a landing spot, it wasn't there either.

        I'd like input from any of you who care to help, to give me a new projected touchdown location. Deb and I did a two hour grid sweep of the location and didn't find the balloon. I'm not asking you to go out and find it (unless you want to), what I'm asking for is an alternate touchdown location. Our grid sweep went North an additional 500 feet, then worked East much more than that. The wind that day was very mild at this location and out of the West. This is a very large soy-bean field, the plants mostly brown are about 3 feet high.

        Good luck and thanks for any help you care to provide.




      • wb8elk@aol.com
        Keith, I landed in a soy bean field this Summer....waist high....I had to be within 5 feet of the payload (same for the parachute and balloon) to see
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 2, 2010
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          Keith,
           
            I landed in a soy bean field this Summer....waist high....I had to be within 5 feet of the payload (same for the parachute and balloon) to see them...the only way I found it was by tripping over the string which was also almost impossible to see.
           
            The parachute and balloon were wadded up in a ball and on the ground covered over by dense soybeans....I had to follow the string to even find the chute. The payload also was in the dirt and also covered over by the leaves.
           
            I was standing at the last coordinates for the landing site....and nothing....turned out to be 50 feet away and totally invisible...that third decimal digit on the GPS reading (which is not reported on APRS) is plus or minus that amount.and can make all the difference in a soybean field.
           
            They will be harvesting that field VERY soon....you might want to contact the farmer to keep an eye out for it....I'm sure he wouldn't want to run it through his combine without some warning.
           
          - Bill WB8ELK
           
           



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Keith Kaiser <wa0tjt@...>
          To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sat, Oct 2, 2010 10:23 pm
          Subject: Re: [GPSL] Balloon Location Challenge

           
          The AGL is 640 feet, at the location of the last transmission.



          On Oct 2, 2010, at 7:47 PM, Pete Lilja wrote:

           
          Yikes!  While there are far more qualified folks than I at doing the math for a grid to locate it I'm surprised it's not there.  Last position report from 1600 (what's the AGL height?) it shouldn't be too far away. 

          I have a lot of experience finding downed rockets at from that relatively low height and low ground speed I can't believe it too far from that point.  I have learned that quite often every bit of a payload, parachute and harnesses will get sucked all the way to the ground with nothing draped up and over crops and visible from very far away..

          Was there any evidence of others being in the field who may have picked it up?

          Good luck!

          Pete
          KC0GPB

          On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Keith Kaiser <wa0tjt@...> wrote:
           
          Today Deb and I went out to look for the week-lost W0B-11 balloon we launched from the BSA Centennial Campout last weekend. We didn't find it. It's here;

          http://aprs.fi/?call=w0b-11&mt=roadmap&z=11&timerange=5000

          Above is the last position report from the balloon according to aprs.fi, it's also exactly where we started our search today. I used its last position, speed, altitude, direction, etc. to predict a landing spot, it wasn't there either.

          I'd like input from any of you who care to help, to give me a new projected touchdown location. Deb and I did a two hour grid sweep of the location and didn't find the balloon. I'm not asking you to go out and find it (unless you want to), what I'm asking for is an alternate touchdown location. Our grid sweep went North an additional 500 feet, then worked East much more than that. The wind that day was very mild at this location and out of the West. This is a very large soy-bean field, the plants mostly brown are about 3 feet high.

          Good luck and thanks for any help you care to provide.



        • wb8elk@aol.com
          Keith, The W0B-11 balloon was descending at about 778 ft/min....based on ground elevation and the 1698 feet altitude of the last position report that would
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 2, 2010
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            Keith,
             
              The W0B-11 balloon was descending at about 778 ft/min....based on ground elevation and the 1698 feet altitude of the last position report that would mean it had 1.3 minutes left to land. The tricky part is exactly how strong the winds were on the surface....it was heading due north as a general trend....even your launch was traveling due north immediately after liftoff... W0A-11 was heading due north as well just before landing....i'd check the actual landing site for W0A-11 compared with the last reading...(I don't have the actual landing site for W0A-11 or W0S...that would help determine what it did during that last 1.3 minutes)...it probably followed the same sort of path that W0A-11 did....W0S did a hook to the southwest...but that was 2 hours later and probably not a good estimate. So my recommendation is to look at where W0A-11 landed in relationship to it's last report and use that as an estimate for W0B-11 from it's last report. If you can send me the actual W0A-11 landing location as well as the W0S landing position I might be able to refined it more for you.
             
            - Bill WB8ELK
             
             
             
             
             



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Keith Kaiser <wa0tjt@...>
            To: gpsl <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>; balloonatics@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: Deb Kaiser <dlkaiser@...>
            Sent: Sat, Oct 2, 2010 7:39 pm
            Subject: [GPSL] Balloon Location Challenge

             
            Today Deb and I went out to look for the week-lost W0B-11 balloon we launched from the BSA Centennial Campout last weekend. We didn't find it. It's here;

            http://aprs.fi/?call=w0b-11&mt=roadmap&z=11&timerange=5000

            Above is the last position report from the balloon according to aprs.fi, it's also exactly where we started our search today. I used its last position, speed, altitude, direction, etc. to predict a landing spot, it wasn't there either.

            I'd like input from any of you who care to help, to give me a new projected touchdown location. Deb and I did a two hour grid sweep of the location and didn't find the balloon. I'm not asking you to go out and find it (unless you want to), what I'm asking for is an alternate touchdown location. Our grid sweep went North an additional 500 feet, then worked East much more than that. The wind that day was very mild at this location and out of the West. This is a very large soy-bean field, the plants mostly brown are about 3 feet high.

            Good luck and thanks for any help you care to provide.
          • Keith Kaiser
            This helps me a lot to confirm that my projected touchdown was at least close. I had figured 38d 52.74, -93d 37.52 so you can see we are only 61.9 feet apart
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 4, 2010
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              This helps me a lot to confirm that my projected touchdown was at least close. I had figured 38d 52.74, -93d 37.52 so you can see we are only 61.9 feet apart on our projections.

              But that also confirms that despite Deb and I doing what I felt was a very good job of looking for it, we didn't look hard enough. It's there we just have to find it.

              Thank you Bill and others for taking the time to look into this mystery. We're already planning on another trip this Saturday to try again to find it. Anyone interested is welcome to join in.

              On Oct 3, 2010, at 11:59 PM, wb8elk@... wrote:

              Surface winds may have been light, but just above they were going strong.....and you were coming down slow 778 ft/min is a slow descent....based on the last reading from W0A-11 and where it landed....my estimate for the final landing spot of W0B-11 is 400 feet due north of the last APRS reading at 1698 feet.....my coordinate guess for landing of W0B-11:
               
              38d 52.73m   -93d 37.52
               


               


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Keith Kaiser <wa0tjt@...>
              To: wb8elk@...
              Cc: Mike Bogard <kd0fw@...>; Deb Kaiser <dlkaiser@...>; John Morelli <jjm2@...>
              Sent: Sun, Oct 3, 2010 9:51 am
              Subject: Re: [GPSL] Balloon Location Challenge

              Attached are the three logs. Mike Bogard reports "Here is a link to where I found the w0a-11 balloon payload. It was about 1200 feet north at 38*49.34'n and 93*32.82'w of the last spot on aprs.fi. It was just northeast about 30 feet of the pond just north of the house."

              Deb and John report that the winds were very mild at the time of the landing, and out of the West. But it's exact speed is unknown. 



              Thanks for helping on this Bill.


              On Oct 3, 2010, at 1:32 AM, wb8elk@... wrote:

              Keith,
               
                The W0B-11 balloon was descending at about 778 ft/min....based on ground elevation and the 1698 feet altitude of the last position report that would mean it had 1.3 minutes left to land. The tricky part is exactly how strong the winds were on the surface....it was heading due north as a general trend....even your launch was traveling due north immediately after liftoff... W0A-11 was heading due north as well just before landing....i'd check the actual landing site for W0A-11 compared with the last reading...(I don't have the actual landing site for W0A-11 or W0S...that would help determine what it did during that last 1.3 minutes)...it probably followed the same sort of path that W0A-11 did....W0S did a hook to the southwest...but that was 2 hours later and probably not a good estimate. So my recommendation is to look at where W0A-11 landed in relationship to it's last report and use that as an estimate for W0B-11 from it's last report. If you can send me the actual W0A-11 landing location as well as the W0S landing position I might be able to refined it more for you.
               
              - Bill WB8ELK
               
               
               
               
               



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Keith Kaiser <wa0tjt@...>
              To: gpsl <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>; balloonatics@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: Deb Kaiser <dlkaiser@...>
              Sent: Sat, Oct 2, 2010 7:39 pm
              Subject: [GPSL] Balloon Location Challenge

               
              Today Deb and I went out to look for the week-lost W0B-11 balloon we launched from the BSA Centennial Campout last weekend. We didn't find it. It's here;

              http://aprs.fi/?call=w0b-11&mt=roadmap&z=11&timerange=5000

              Above is the last position report from the balloon according to aprs.fi, it's also exactly where we started our search today. I used its last position, speed, altitude, direction, etc. to predict a landing spot, it wasn't there either.

              I'd like input from any of you who care to help, to give me a new projected touchdown location. Deb and I did a two hour grid sweep of the location and didn't find the balloon. I'm not asking you to go out and find it (unless you want to), what I'm asking for is an alternate touchdown location. Our grid sweep went North an additional 500 feet, then worked East much more than that. The wind that day was very mild at this location and out of the West. This is a very large soy-bean field, the plants mostly brown are about 3 feet high.

              Good luck and thanks for any help you care to provide.

              =

            • Mike Manes
              Hi Keith, An independent DF beacon sure would help you narrow down your search. Don t leave the launch site without it! :=) 73 de Mike W5VSI ... -- Mike Manes
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 4, 2010
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                Hi Keith,

                An independent DF beacon sure would help you narrow down your search. Don't
                leave the launch site without it! :=)
                73 de Mike W5VSI

                On 10/4/2010 07:12, Keith Kaiser wrote:
                >
                >
                > This helps me a lot to confirm that my projected touchdown was at least close.
                > I had figured 38d 52.74, -93d 37.52 so you can see we are only 61.9 feet apart
                > on our projections.
                >
                > But that also confirms that despite Deb and I doing what I felt was a very
                > good job of looking for it, we didn't look hard enough. It's there we just
                > have to find it.
                >
                > Thank you Bill and others for taking the time to look into this mystery. We're
                > already planning on another trip this Saturday to try again to find it. Anyone
                > interested is welcome to join in.
                >
                > On Oct 3, 2010, at 11:59 PM, wb8elk@... <mailto:wb8elk@...> wrote:
                >
                >> Surface winds may have been light, but just above they were going
                >> strong.....and you were coming down slow 778 ft/min is a slow
                >> descent....based on the last reading from W0A-11 and where it landed....my
                >> estimate for the final landing spot of W0B-11 is 400 feet due north of the
                >> last APRS reading at 1698 feet.....my coordinate guess for landing of W0B-11:
                >> 38d 52.73m -93d 37.52
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> -----Original Message-----
                >> From: Keith Kaiser <wa0tjt@... <mailto:wa0tjt@...>>
                >> To: wb8elk@... <mailto:wb8elk@...>
                >> Cc: Mike Bogard <kd0fw@... <mailto:kd0fw@...>>; Deb Kaiser
                >> <dlkaiser@... <mailto:dlkaiser@...>>; John Morelli
                >> <jjm2@... <mailto:jjm2@...>>
                >> Sent: Sun, Oct 3, 2010 9:51 am
                >> Subject: Re: [GPSL] Balloon Location Challenge
                >>
                >> Attached are the three logs. Mike Bogard reports "Here is a link to where I
                >> found the w0a-11 balloon payload. It was about 1200 feet north at 38*49.34'n
                >> and 93*32.82'w of the last spot on aprs.fi. It was just northeast about 30
                >> feet of the pond just north of the house."
                >>
                >> Deb and John report that the winds were very mild at the time of the
                >> landing, and out of the West. But it's exact speed is unknown.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Thanks for helping on this Bill.
                >>
                >>
                >> On Oct 3, 2010, at 1:32 AM, wb8elk@... <mailto:wb8elk@...> wrote:
                >>
                >>> Keith,
                >>> The W0B-11 balloon was descending at about 778 ft/min....based on ground
                >>> elevation and the 1698 feet altitude of the last position report that would
                >>> mean it had 1.3 minutes left to land. The tricky part is exactly how strong
                >>> the winds were on the surface....it was heading due north as a general
                >>> trend....even your launch was traveling due north immediately after
                >>> liftoff... W0A-11 was heading due north as well just before landing....i'd
                >>> check the actual landing site for W0A-11 compared with the last
                >>> reading...(I don't have the actual landing site for W0A-11 or W0S...that
                >>> would help determine what it did during that last 1.3 minutes)...it
                >>> probably followed the same sort of path that W0A-11 did....W0S did a hook
                >>> to the southwest...but that was 2 hours later and probably not a good
                >>> estimate. So my recommendation is to look at where W0A-11 landed in
                >>> relationship to it's last report and use that as an estimate for W0B-11
                >>> from it's last report. If you can send me the actual W0A-11 landing
                >>> location as well as the W0S landing position I might be able to refined it
                >>> more for you.
                >>> - Bill WB8ELK
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> -----Original Message-----
                >>> From: Keith Kaiser <wa0tjt@... <mailto:wa0tjt@...>>
                >>> To: gpsl <GPSL@yahoogroups.com <mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com>>;
                >>> balloonatics@yahoogroups.com <mailto:balloonatics@yahoogroups.com>
                >>> Cc: Deb Kaiser <dlkaiser@... <mailto:dlkaiser@...>>
                >>> Sent: Sat, Oct 2, 2010 7:39 pm
                >>> Subject: [GPSL] Balloon Location Challenge
                >>>
                >>> Today Deb and I went out to look for the week-lost W0B-11 balloon we
                >>> launched from the BSA Centennial Campout last weekend. We didn't find it.
                >>> It's here;
                >>>
                >>> http://aprs.fi/?call=w0b-11&mt=roadmap&z=11&timerange=5000
                >>> <http://aprs.fi/?call=w0b-11&mt=roadmap&z=11&timerange=5000>
                >>>
                >>> Above is the last position report from the balloon according to aprs.fi,
                >>> it's also exactly where we started our search today. I used its last
                >>> position, speed, altitude, direction, etc. to predict a landing spot, it
                >>> wasn't there either.
                >>>
                >>> I'd like input from any of you who care to help, to give me a new projected
                >>> touchdown location. Deb and I did a two hour grid sweep of the location and
                >>> didn't find the balloon. I'm not asking you to go out and find it (unless
                >>> you want to), what I'm asking for is an alternate touchdown location. Our
                >>> grid sweep went North an additional 500 feet, then worked East much more
                >>> than that. The wind that day was very mild at this location and out of the
                >>> West. This is a very large soy-bean field, the plants mostly brown are
                >>> about 3 feet high.
                >>>
                >>> Good luck and thanks for any help you care to provide.
                >>
                >> =
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                A. Einstein
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