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Re: [GPSL] New Pictues

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  • Pete Lilja
    Very nice. You ve got to be proud of your son. He seems to do a lot of cool stuff! That landing did look close. But that makes for an easy recovery. We
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 1, 2010
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      Very nice.  You've got to be proud of your son.  He seems to do a lot of cool stuff!

      That landing did look close.  But that makes for an easy recovery.  We don't worry too much about that here in Iowa.  But we can't get pix of the Pacific, either. 

      It seems the pix are a bit underexposed.  I find it's really difficult to get good exposures throughout a flight.  Underexposure is, or so I'm told, better than over-exposure.  The details are still there - your just gotta coax them out with software.

      Very nice! thanks for posting the link.

      Pete

      On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...> wrote:
       

      Sorry.

      I posted them in the Photos section of the GPSL site.

      here is a link...
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GPSL/photos/album/10585105/pic/list

      Tim


      From: Pete Lilja <plilja@...>
      To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 3:51:20 PM
      Subject: Re: [GPSL] New Pictues

       

      You posted them where?

      Pete

      On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:20 PM, sarbresam <sarbresam@...> wrote:
       

      I posted some photos from my sons launch on 9/26/2010. I thought you would enjoy the images of the Pacific ocean and just how close it landed to the freeway. He was very lucky.

      Tim




    • L. Paul Verhage
      Yes congrats. You know, I suppose you could get a picture of the Pacific from Iowa if you can get the balloon high enough. My calculation shows you just ned
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 1, 2010
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        Yes congrats. 
         
        You know, I suppose you could get a picture of the Pacific from Iowa if you can get the balloon high enough.  My calculation shows you just ned to get the balloon to an altitude of 2.7 million feet.  Ummm, how much helium wil that take?
         
        Usually I see problems with picture exposure when the camera's light detector is covered.  But that results in over exposed pictures.  I wonder can result in underexposed?
         
        Paul  

        On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Pete Lilja <plilja@...> wrote:


        Very nice.  You've got to be proud of your son.  He seems to do a lot of cool stuff!

        That landing did look close.  But that makes for an easy recovery.  We don't worry too much about that here in Iowa.  But we can't get pix of the Pacific, either. 

        It seems the pix are a bit underexposed.  I find it's really difficult to get good exposures throughout a flight.  Underexposure is, or so I'm told, better than over-exposure.  The details are still there - your just gotta coax them out with software.

        Very nice! thanks for posting the link.

        Pete

        On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...> wrote:
         

        Sorry.

        I posted them in the Photos section of the GPSL site.

        here is a link...
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GPSL/photos/album/10585105/pic/list

        Tim


        From: Pete Lilja <plilja@...>
        To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 3:51:20 PM
        Subject: Re: [GPSL] New Pictues

         

        You posted them where?

        Pete

        On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:20 PM, sarbresam <sarbresam@...> wrote:
         

        I posted some photos from my sons launch on 9/26/2010. I thought you would enjoy the images of the Pacific ocean and just how close it landed to the freeway. He was very lucky.

        Tim









        --
        Onwards and Upwards,
        Paul
      • Tim
        Yes I am very proud of Brenden. Photography is my hobby so I helped with the camera setup. I told Brenden what the camera should do and he figured how to do
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 1, 2010
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          Yes I am very proud of Brenden. 

          Photography is my hobby so I helped with the camera setup.  I told Brenden what the camera should do and he figured how to do with CHDK.  I have seen a bunch of photos that were blurred from payload spin.  I had Brenden set up the camera in aperture priority (AV) mode with a shutter speed of 1/500.  He also setup the camera to take RAW & JPG photos, however the RAW photos failed.    He used a Canon A470 which has a very small 5.75 x 4.31 mm sensor, which with a high shutter speed and a small sensor you are bound to have them come out under exposed.  I didn't think it would be a big deal because he would have RAW images that I could pull out the detail.  The other problem was not being able to use a UV/Haze filter.  His next flight I hope he will be flying a G11.  The G11 will allow him to  use filters and it has a much bigger sensor.  The G12 is coming out soon so I am hunting eBay for a cheap G11.

          Tim
          Brenden's Dad/Project Finance Dept



          From: L. Paul Verhage <nearsys@...>
          To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, October 1, 2010 10:18:00 AM
          Subject: Re: [GPSL] New Pictues

           

          Yes congrats. 
           
          You know, I suppose you could get a picture of the Pacific from Iowa if you can get the balloon high enough.  My calculation shows you just ned to get the balloon to an altitude of 2.7 million feet.  Ummm, how much helium wil that take?
           
          Usually I see problems with picture exposure when the camera's light detector is covered.  But that results in over exposed pictures.  I wonder can result in underexposed?
           
          Paul  

          On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Pete Lilja <plilja@...> wrote:


          Very nice.  You've got to be proud of your son.  He seems to do a lot of cool stuff!

          That landing did look close.  But that makes for an easy recovery.  We don't worry too much about that here in Iowa.  But we can't get pix of the Pacific, either. 

          It seems the pix are a bit underexposed.  I find it's really difficult to get good exposures throughout a flight.  Underexposure is, or so I'm told, better than over-exposure.  The details are still there - your just gotta coax them out with software.

          Very nice! thanks for posting the link.

          Pete

          On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...> wrote:
           

          Sorry.

          I posted them in the Photos section of the GPSL site.

          here is a link...
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GPSL/photos/album/10585105/pic/list

          Tim


          From: Pete Lilja <plilja@...>
          To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 3:51:20 PM
          Subject: Re: [GPSL] New Pictues

           

          You posted them where?

          Pete

          On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:20 PM, sarbresam <sarbresam@...> wrote:
           

          I posted some photos from my sons launch on 9/26/2010. I thought you would enjoy the images of the Pacific ocean and just how close it landed to the freeway. He was very lucky.

          Tim









          --
          Onwards and Upwards,
          Paul

        • Roger Hammond
          Good job guys! Roger KC0MWM CNNSP
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 1, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Good job guys!

            Roger KC0MWM
            CNNSP

            On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...> wrote:


            Yes I am very proud of Brenden. 

            Photography is my hobby so I helped with the camera setup.  I told Brenden what the camera should do and he figured how to do with CHDK.  I have seen a bunch of photos that were blurred from payload spin.  I had Brenden set up the camera in aperture priority (AV) mode with a shutter speed of 1/500.  He also setup the camera to take RAW & JPG photos, however the RAW photos failed.    He used a Canon A470 which has a very small 5.75 x 4.31 mm sensor, which with a high shutter speed and a small sensor you are bound to have them come out under exposed.  I didn't think it would be a big deal because he would have RAW images that I could pull out the detail.  The other problem was not being able to use a UV/Haze filter.  His next flight I hope he will be flying a G11.  The G11 will allow him to  use filters and it has a much bigger sensor.  The G12 is coming out soon so I am hunting eBay for a cheap G11.

            Tim
            Brenden's Dad/Project Finance Dept



            From: L. Paul Verhage <nearsys@...>
            To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, October 1, 2010 10:18:00 AM

            Subject: Re: [GPSL] New Pictues

             

            Yes congrats. 
             
            You know, I suppose you could get a picture of the Pacific from Iowa if you can get the balloon high enough.  My calculation shows you just ned to get the balloon to an altitude of 2.7 million feet.  Ummm, how much helium wil that take?
             
            Usually I see problems with picture exposure when the camera's light detector is covered.  But that results in over exposed pictures.  I wonder can result in underexposed?
             
            Paul  

            On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Pete Lilja <plilja@...> wrote:


            Very nice.  You've got to be proud of your son.  He seems to do a lot of cool stuff!

            That landing did look close.  But that makes for an easy recovery.  We don't worry too much about that here in Iowa.  But we can't get pix of the Pacific, either. 

            It seems the pix are a bit underexposed.  I find it's really difficult to get good exposures throughout a flight.  Underexposure is, or so I'm told, better than over-exposure.  The details are still there - your just gotta coax them out with software.

            Very nice! thanks for posting the link.

            Pete

            On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...> wrote:
             

            Sorry.

            I posted them in the Photos section of the GPSL site.

            here is a link...
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GPSL/photos/album/10585105/pic/list

            Tim


            From: Pete Lilja <plilja@...>
            To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 3:51:20 PM
            Subject: Re: [GPSL] New Pictues

             

            You posted them where?

            Pete

            On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:20 PM, sarbresam <sarbresam@...> wrote:
             

            I posted some photos from my sons launch on 9/26/2010. I thought you would enjoy the images of the Pacific ocean and just how close it landed to the freeway. He was very lucky.

            Tim









            --
            Onwards and Upwards,
            Paul




          • L. Paul Verhage
            Is the UV filter on the camera lens? On the lens shoudl be fine since the air should be dry inside the camera lens. One thing I discovered is you don t want
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 1, 2010
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              Is the UV filter on the camera lens?  On the lens shoudl be fine since the air should be dry inside the camera lens. 
               
              One thing I discovered is you don't want to put a filter on the airframe.  Moisture inside will condense on the window to create fogging.
               
              I like the title of Project Finance Department!!

              Paul
               
              On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Roger Hammond <kc0mwm@...> wrote:


              Good job guys!

              Roger KC0MWM
              CNNSP


              On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...> wrote:


              Yes I am very proud of Brenden. 

              Photography is my hobby so I helped with the camera setup.  I told Brenden what the camera should do and he figured how to do with CHDK.  I have seen a bunch of photos that were blurred from payload spin.  I had Brenden set up the camera in aperture priority (AV) mode with a shutter speed of 1/500.  He also setup the camera to take RAW & JPG photos, however the RAW photos failed.    He used a Canon A470 which has a very small 5.75 x 4.31 mm sensor, which with a high shutter speed and a small sensor you are bound to have them come out under exposed.  I didn't think it would be a big deal because he would have RAW images that I could pull out the detail.  The other problem was not being able to use a UV/Haze filter.  His next flight I hope he will be flying a G11.  The G11 will allow him to  use filters and it has a much bigger sensor.  The G12 is coming out soon so I am hunting eBay for a cheap G11.

              Tim
              Brenden's Dad/Project Finance Dept



              From: L. Paul Verhage <nearsys@...>
              To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, October 1, 2010 10:18:00 AM

              Subject: Re: [GPSL] New Pictues

               

              Yes congrats. 
               
              You know, I suppose you could get a picture of the Pacific from Iowa if you can get the balloon high enough.  My calculation shows you just ned to get the balloon to an altitude of 2.7 million feet.  Ummm, how much helium wil that take?
               
              Usually I see problems with picture exposure when the camera's light detector is covered.  But that results in over exposed pictures.  I wonder can result in underexposed?
               
              Paul  

              On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Pete Lilja <plilja@...> wrote:


              Very nice.  You've got to be proud of your son.  He seems to do a lot of cool stuff!

              That landing did look close.  But that makes for an easy recovery.  We don't worry too much about that here in Iowa.  But we can't get pix of the Pacific, either. 

              It seems the pix are a bit underexposed.  I find it's really difficult to get good exposures throughout a flight.  Underexposure is, or so I'm told, better than over-exposure.  The details are still there - your just gotta coax them out with software.

              Very nice! thanks for posting the link.

              Pete

              On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...> wrote:
               

              Sorry.

              I posted them in the Photos section of the GPSL site.

              here is a link...
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GPSL/photos/album/10585105/pic/list

              Tim


              From: Pete Lilja <plilja@...>
              To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 3:51:20 PM
              Subject: Re: [GPSL] New Pictues

               

              You posted them where?

              Pete

              On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:20 PM, sarbresam <sarbresam@...> wrote:
               

              I posted some photos from my sons launch on 9/26/2010. I thought you would enjoy the images of the Pacific ocean and just how close it landed to the freeway. He was very lucky.

              Tim









              --
              Onwards and Upwards,
              Paul









              --
              Onwards and Upwards,
              Paul
            • Tim
              Thanks Paul I do too, however I like Dad much more. I am curious to know if you were using hand warmers
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 1, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                <<I like the title of Project Finance Department!!>>  Thanks Paul I do too, however I like Dad much more.

                I am curious to know if you were using hand warmers when the fogging occurred?  On one of Brenden's attempts he used hand warmers and when we retrieved it 45minutes after lift off the gear inside was so hot you could hardly touch it. (This flight never made it passed 10k and is a long story for another thread.)  My point is condensation/fogging is caused by differences in temperature inside to out.  The flight from which these pictures came, his payload was not even close to air tight, so the temp on the inside was the same as the outside.  On this flight he insulated the batteries from the cold and some of the electronics but the camera was left to fend for itself.  Yes some were underexposed but none were fogged.

                Thoughts?

                What are others doing to fight condensation?

                Tim
                Brenden's Dad/Project Finance Dept




                From: L. Paul Verhage <nearsys@...>
                To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Fri, October 1, 2010 11:41:41 AM
                Subject: Re: [GPSL] New Pictues

                 

                Is the UV filter on the camera lens?  On the lens shoudl be fine since the air should be dry inside the camera lens. 
                 
                One thing I discovered is you don't want to put a filter on the airframe.  Moisture inside will condense on the window to create fogging.
                 
                I like the title of Project Finance Department!!

                Paul
                 
                On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Roger Hammond <kc0mwm@...> wrote:


                Good job guys!

                Roger KC0MWM
                CNNSP


                On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...> wrote:


                Yes I am very proud of Brenden. 

                Photography is my hobby so I helped with the camera setup.  I told Brenden what the camera should do and he figured how to do with CHDK.  I have seen a bunch of photos that were blurred from payload spin.  I had Brenden set up the camera in aperture priority (AV) mode with a shutter speed of 1/500.  He also setup the camera to take RAW & JPG photos, however the RAW photos failed.    He used a Canon A470 which has a very small 5.75 x 4.31 mm sensor, which with a high shutter speed and a small sensor you are bound to have them come out under exposed.  I didn't think it would be a big deal because he would have RAW images that I could pull out the detail.  The other problem was not being able to use a UV/Haze filter.  His next flight I hope he will be flying a G11.  The G11 will allow him to  use filters and it has a much bigger sensor.  The G12 is coming out soon so I am hunting eBay for a cheap G11.

                Tim
                Brenden's Dad/Project Finance Dept



                From: L. Paul Verhage <nearsys@...>
                To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Fri, October 1, 2010 10:18:00 AM

                Subject: Re: [GPSL] New Pictues

                 

                Yes congrats. 
                 
                You know, I suppose you could get a picture of the Pacific from Iowa if you can get the balloon high enough.  My calculation shows you just ned to get the balloon to an altitude of 2.7 million feet.  Ummm, how much helium wil that take?
                 
                Usually I see problems with picture exposure when the camera's light detector is covered.  But that results in over exposed pictures.  I wonder can result in underexposed?
                 
                Paul  

                On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Pete Lilja <plilja@...> wrote:


                Very nice.  You've got to be proud of your son.  He seems to do a lot of cool stuff!

                That landing did look close.  But that makes for an easy recovery.  We don't worry too much about that here in Iowa.  But we can't get pix of the Pacific, either. 

                It seems the pix are a bit underexposed.  I find it's really difficult to get good exposures throughout a flight.  Underexposure is, or so I'm told, better than over-exposure.  The details are still there - your just gotta coax them out with software.

                Very nice! thanks for posting the link.

                Pete

                On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...> wrote:
                 

                Sorry.

                I posted them in the Photos section of the GPSL site.

                here is a link...
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GPSL/photos/album/10585105/pic/list

                Tim


                From: Pete Lilja <plilja@...>
                To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 3:51:20 PM
                Subject: Re: [GPSL] New Pictues

                 

                You posted them where?

                Pete

                On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:20 PM, sarbresam <sarbresam@...> wrote:
                 

                I posted some photos from my sons launch on 9/26/2010. I thought you would enjoy the images of the Pacific ocean and just how close it landed to the freeway. He was very lucky.

                Tim









                --
                Onwards and Upwards,
                Paul









                --
                Onwards and Upwards,
                Paul

              • Pete Lilja
                Ooh, 2.7 million feet is a bit out of my league. Too much latex required. (That s tongue-in-cheek, folks). Interestingly, we did get a photo showing a sliver
                Message 7 of 14 , Oct 1, 2010
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                  Ooh, 2.7 million feet is a bit out of my league.  Too much latex required.  (That's tongue-in-cheek, folks).

                  Interestingly, we did get a photo showing a sliver of Lake Michigan from over NE Iowa this past winter.

                  Enough of that - this thread is Brenden's.  A very nice job by a promising young man.

                  Pete
                  KC0GPB

                  On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 12:18 PM, L. Paul Verhage <nearsys@...> wrote:
                   

                  Yes congrats. 
                   
                  You know, I suppose you could get a picture of the Pacific from Iowa if you can get the balloon high enough.  My calculation shows you just ned to get the balloon to an altitude of 2.7 million feet.  Ummm, how much helium wil that take?
                   
                  Usually I see problems with picture exposure when the camera's light detector is covered.  But that results in over exposed pictures.  I wonder can result in underexposed?
                   
                  Paul  



                • Pete Lilja
                  The fogging of the lens occurs when the equipment temperature is below the dew point of the ambient air - at least in our experience. It has occurred for us
                  Message 8 of 14 , Oct 1, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The fogging of the lens occurs when the equipment temperature is below the dew point of the ambient air - at least in our experience.  It has occurred for us only on descent after the payload box takes a good cold soak at altitude and then returns relatively quickly in to the humid air nearer the ground.

                    We haven't experience it but I suppose you could also get fogging on ascent passing through moisture and a change in temp.

                    Those of us that fly east of a longitudinal line from about El Paso, TX live with this humidity every Summer.  Yuck!  (Or so I've read that El Paso line is a rough dividing line between arid air and the stuff we swim through in the Summer).

                    Pete

                    On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...> wrote:
                     

                    <<I like the title of Project Finance Department!!>>  Thanks Paul I do too, however I like Dad much more.

                    I am curious to know if you were using hand warmers when the fogging occurred?  On one of Brenden's attempts he used hand warmers and when we retrieved it 45minutes after lift off the gear inside was so hot you could hardly touch it. (This flight never made it passed 10k and is a long story for another thread.)  My point is condensation/fogging is caused by differences in temperature inside to out.  The flight from which these pictures came, his payload was not even close to air tight, so the temp on the inside was the same as the outside.  On this flight he insulated the batteries from the cold and some of the electronics but the camera was left to fend for itself.  Yes some were underexposed but none were fogged.

                    Thoughts?

                    What are others doing to fight condensation?


                    Tim
                    Brenden's Dad/Project Finance Dept




                    From: L. Paul Verhage <nearsys@...>
                    To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Fri, October 1, 2010 11:41:41 AM

                    Subject: Re: [GPSL] New Pictues

                     

                    Is the UV filter on the camera lens?  On the lens shoudl be fine since the air should be dry inside the camera lens. 
                     
                    One thing I discovered is you don't want to put a filter on the airframe.  Moisture inside will condense on the window to create fogging.
                     
                    I like the title of Project Finance Department!!

                    Paul
                     
                    On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Roger Hammond <kc0mwm@...> wrote:


                    Good job guys!

                    Roger KC0MWM
                    CNNSP


                    On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...> wrote:


                    Yes I am very proud of Brenden. 

                    Photography is my hobby so I helped with the camera setup.  I told Brenden what the camera should do and he figured how to do with CHDK.  I have seen a bunch of photos that were blurred from payload spin.  I had Brenden set up the camera in aperture priority (AV) mode with a shutter speed of 1/500.  He also setup the camera to take RAW & JPG photos, however the RAW photos failed.    He used a Canon A470 which has a very small 5.75 x 4.31 mm sensor, which with a high shutter speed and a small sensor you are bound to have them come out under exposed.  I didn't think it would be a big deal because he would have RAW images that I could pull out the detail.  The other problem was not being able to use a UV/Haze filter.  His next flight I hope he will be flying a G11.  The G11 will allow him to  use filters and it has a much bigger sensor.  The G12 is coming out soon so I am hunting eBay for a cheap G11.

                    Tim
                    Brenden's Dad/Project Finance Dept



                    From: L. Paul Verhage <nearsys@...>
                    To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Fri, October 1, 2010 10:18:00 AM

                    Subject: Re: [GPSL] New Pictues

                     

                    Yes congrats. 
                     
                    You know, I suppose you could get a picture of the Pacific from Iowa if you can get the balloon high enough.  My calculation shows you just ned to get the balloon to an altitude of 2.7 million feet.  Ummm, how much helium wil that take?
                     
                    Usually I see problems with picture exposure when the camera's light detector is covered.  But that results in over exposed pictures.  I wonder can result in underexposed?
                     
                    Paul  

                    On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Pete Lilja <plilja@...> wrote:


                    Very nice.  You've got to be proud of your son.  He seems to do a lot of cool stuff!

                    That landing did look close.  But that makes for an easy recovery.  We don't worry too much about that here in Iowa.  But we can't get pix of the Pacific, either. 

                    It seems the pix are a bit underexposed.  I find it's really difficult to get good exposures throughout a flight.  Underexposure is, or so I'm told, better than over-exposure.  The details are still there - your just gotta coax them out with software.

                    Very nice! thanks for posting the link.

                    Pete

                    On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...> wrote:
                     

                    Sorry.

                    I posted them in the Photos section of the GPSL site.

                    here is a link...
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GPSL/photos/album/10585105/pic/list

                    Tim


                    From: Pete Lilja <plilja@...>
                    To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 3:51:20 PM
                    Subject: Re: [GPSL] New Pictues

                     

                    You posted them where?

                    Pete

                    On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:20 PM, sarbresam <sarbresam@...> wrote:
                     

                    I posted some photos from my sons launch on 9/26/2010. I thought you would enjoy the images of the Pacific ocean and just how close it landed to the freeway. He was very lucky.

                    Tim









                    --
                    Onwards and Upwards,
                    Paul









                    --
                    Onwards and Upwards,
                    Paul


                  • Mike Manes
                    The only time I ve run into condensation problems is during descent thru a thick cloud layer - the payload guts are cold, and the ambient wet air is
                    Message 9 of 14 , Oct 1, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      The only time I've run into condensation problems is during descent thru a
                      thick cloud layer - the payload guts are cold, and the ambient wet air is
                      infiltrating during descent. One trick that seemed to work a bit was to
                      install a breather port packed with silica gel desiccant. The port was
                      made from a pill bottle with the top and bottom perforated with 0.063"
                      drilled holes.

                      73 de Mike W5VSI

                      On 10/1/2010 13:01, Tim wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > <<I like the title of Project Finance Department!!>> Thanks Paul I do too,
                      > however I like Dad much more.
                      >
                      > I am curious to know if you were using hand warmers when the fogging occurred?
                      > On one of Brenden's attempts he used hand warmers and when we retrieved it
                      > 45minutes after lift off the gear inside was so hot you could hardly touch it.
                      > (This flight never made it passed 10k and is a long story for another thread.)
                      > My point is condensation/fogging is caused by differences in temperature
                      > inside to out. The flight from which these pictures came, his payload was not
                      > even close to air tight, so the temp on the inside was the same as the
                      > outside. On this flight he insulated the batteries from the cold and some of
                      > the electronics but the camera was left to fend for itself. Yes some were
                      > underexposed but none were fogged.
                      >
                      > Thoughts?
                      >
                      > What are others doing to fight condensation?
                      >
                      > Tim
                      > Brenden's Dad/Project Finance Dept
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > *From:* L. Paul Verhage <nearsys@...>
                      > *To:* GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                      > *Sent:* Fri, October 1, 2010 11:41:41 AM
                      > *Subject:* Re: [GPSL] New Pictues
                      >
                      > Is the UV filter on the camera lens? On the lens shoudl be fine since the air
                      > should be dry inside the camera lens.
                      > One thing I discovered is you don't want to put a filter on the airframe.
                      > Moisture inside will condense on the window to create fogging.
                      > I like the title of Project Finance Department!!
                      >
                      > Paul
                      > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Roger Hammond <kc0mwm@...
                      > <mailto:kc0mwm@...>> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Good job guys!
                      >
                      > Roger KC0MWM
                      > CNNSP
                      >
                      >
                      > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...
                      > <mailto:sarbresam@...>> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yes I am very proud of Brenden.
                      >
                      > Photography is my hobby so I helped with the camera setup. I told
                      > Brenden what the camera should do and he figured how to do with CHDK.
                      > I have seen a bunch of photos that were blurred from payload spin. I
                      > had Brenden set up the camera in aperture priority (AV) mode with a
                      > shutter speed of 1/500. He also setup the camera to take RAW & JPG
                      > photos, however the RAW photos failed. He used a Canon A470 which has
                      > a very small 5.75 x 4.31 mm sensor, which with a high shutter speed
                      > and a small sensor you are bound to have them come out under exposed.
                      > I didn't think it would be a big deal because he would have RAW images
                      > that I could pull out the detail. The other problem was not being able
                      > to use a UV/Haze filter. His next flight I hope he will be flying a
                      > G11. The G11 will allow him to use filters and it has a much bigger
                      > sensor. The G12 is coming out soon so I am hunting eBay for a cheap G11.
                      >
                      > Tim
                      > Brenden's Dad/Project Finance Dept
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > *From:* L. Paul Verhage <nearsys@... <mailto:nearsys@...>>
                      > *To:* GPSL@yahoogroups.com <mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
                      > *Sent:* Fri, October 1, 2010 10:18:00 AM
                      >
                      > *Subject:* Re: [GPSL] New Pictues
                      >
                      > Yes congrats.
                      > You know, I suppose you could get a picture of the Pacific from Iowa
                      > if you can get the balloon high enough. My calculation shows you just
                      > ned to get the balloon to an altitude of 2.7 million feet. Ummm, how
                      > much helium wil that take?
                      > Usually I see problems with picture exposure when the camera's light
                      > detector is covered. But that results in over exposed pictures. I
                      > wonder can result in underexposed?
                      > Paul
                      >
                      > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Pete Lilja <plilja@...
                      > <mailto:plilja@...>> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Very nice. You've got to be proud of your son. He seems to do a
                      > lot of cool stuff!
                      >
                      > That landing did look close. But that makes for an easy recovery.
                      > We don't worry too much about that here in Iowa. But we can't get
                      > pix of the Pacific, either.
                      >
                      > It seems the pix are a bit underexposed. I find it's really
                      > difficult to get good exposures throughout a flight. Underexposure
                      > is, or so I'm told, better than over-exposure. The details are
                      > still there - your just gotta coax them out with software.
                      >
                      > Very nice! thanks for posting the link.
                      >
                      > Pete
                      >
                      > On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...
                      > <mailto:sarbresam@...>> wrote:
                      >
                      > Sorry.
                      >
                      > I posted them in the Photos section of the GPSL site.
                      >
                      > here is a link...
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GPSL/photos/album/10585105/pic/list
                      >
                      > Tim
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > *From:* Pete Lilja <plilja@... <mailto:plilja@...>>
                      > *To:* GPSL@yahoogroups.com <mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
                      > *Sent:* Thu, September 30, 2010 3:51:20 PM
                      > *Subject:* Re: [GPSL] New Pictues
                      >
                      > You posted them where?
                      >
                      > Pete
                      >
                      > On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:20 PM, sarbresam
                      > <sarbresam@... <mailto:sarbresam@...>> wrote:
                      >
                      > I posted some photos from my sons launch on 9/26/2010. I
                      > thought you would enjoy the images of the Pacific ocean
                      > and just how close it landed to the freeway. He was very
                      > lucky.
                      >
                      > Tim
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Onwards and Upwards,
                      > Paul
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Onwards and Upwards,
                      > Paul
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      --
                      Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                      "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                      A. Einstein
                    • L. Paul Verhage
                      My first flight encountered fogging on ascent. It appears the window on the outside of the airframe got colder than the Styrofoam walls of the airframe. This
                      Message 10 of 14 , Oct 1, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        My first flight encountered fogging on ascent.  It appears the window on the outside of the airframe got colder than the Styrofoam walls of the airframe.  This was a launch from Kansas where we do have a "small" amount of humidity.  Since that first flight, I've left left the camera port open to the air and have not suffered fogging for a camera inside the airframe looking out.  
                         
                        I too have suffered fogging on descent (actually my camera did, I wasn't onboard ;) ).  It seems to be a problem for the camera outside the airframe. 
                         
                        I wonder if you can use a small CPU fan to blow air across the camera on descent?
                         
                        Paul  

                        On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 8:34 PM, Mike Manes <mrmanes@...> wrote:
                        The only time I've run into condensation problems is during descent thru a
                        thick cloud layer - the payload guts are cold, and the ambient wet air is
                        infiltrating during descent. One trick that seemed to work a bit was to
                        install a breather port packed with silica gel desiccant.  The port was
                        made from a pill bottle with the top and bottom perforated with 0.063"
                        drilled holes.

                        73 de Mike W5VSI

                        On 10/1/2010 13:01, Tim wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > <<I like the title of Project Finance Department!!>> Thanks Paul I do too,
                        > however I like Dad much more.
                        >
                        > I am curious to know if you were using hand warmers when the fogging occurred?
                        > On one of Brenden's attempts he used hand warmers and when we retrieved it
                        > 45minutes after lift off the gear inside was so hot you could hardly touch it.
                        > (This flight never made it passed 10k and is a long story for another thread.)
                        > My point is condensation/fogging is caused by differences in temperature
                        > inside to out. The flight from which these pictures came, his payload was not
                        > even close to air tight, so the temp on the inside was the same as the
                        > outside. On this flight he insulated the batteries from the cold and some of
                        > the electronics but the camera was left to fend for itself. Yes some were
                        > underexposed but none were fogged.
                        >
                        > Thoughts?
                        >
                        > What are others doing to fight condensation?
                        >
                        > Tim
                        > Brenden's Dad/Project Finance Dept
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > *From:* L. Paul Verhage <nearsys@...>
                        > *To:* GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                        > *Sent:* Fri, October 1, 2010 11:41:41 AM
                        > *Subject:* Re: [GPSL] New Pictues
                        >
                        > Is the UV filter on the camera lens? On the lens shoudl be fine since the air
                        > should be dry inside the camera lens.
                        > One thing I discovered is you don't want to put a filter on the airframe.
                        > Moisture inside will condense on the window to create fogging.
                        > I like the title of Project Finance Department!!
                        >
                        > Paul
                        > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Roger Hammond <kc0mwm@...
                        > <mailto:kc0mwm@...>> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >     Good job guys!
                        >
                        >     Roger KC0MWM
                        >     CNNSP
                        >
                        >
                        >     On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...
                        >     <mailto:sarbresam@...>> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >         Yes I am very proud of Brenden.
                        >
                        >         Photography is my hobby so I helped with the camera setup. I told
                        >         Brenden what the camera should do and he figured how to do with CHDK.
                        >         I have seen a bunch of photos that were blurred from payload spin. I
                        >         had Brenden set up the camera in aperture priority (AV) mode with a
                        >         shutter speed of 1/500. He also setup the camera to take RAW & JPG
                        >         photos, however the RAW photos failed. He used a Canon A470 which has
                        >         a very small 5.75 x 4.31 mm sensor, which with a high shutter speed
                        >         and a small sensor you are bound to have them come out under exposed.
                        >         I didn't think it would be a big deal because he would have RAW images
                        >         that I could pull out the detail. The other problem was not being able
                        >         to use a UV/Haze filter. His next flight I hope he will be flying a
                        >         G11. The G11 will allow him to use filters and it has a much bigger
                        >         sensor. The G12 is coming out soon so I am hunting eBay for a cheap G11.
                        >
                        >         Tim
                        >         Brenden's Dad/Project Finance Dept
                        >
                        >
                        >         ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        >         *From:* L. Paul Verhage <nearsys@... <mailto:nearsys@...>>
                        >         *To:* GPSL@yahoogroups.com <mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
                        >         *Sent:* Fri, October 1, 2010 10:18:00 AM
                        >
                        >         *Subject:* Re: [GPSL] New Pictues
                        >
                        >         Yes congrats.
                        >         You know, I suppose you could get a picture of the Pacific from Iowa
                        >         if you can get the balloon high enough. My calculation shows you just
                        >         ned to get the balloon to an altitude of 2.7 million feet. Ummm, how
                        >         much helium wil that take?
                        >         Usually I see problems with picture exposure when the camera's light
                        >         detector is covered. But that results in over exposed pictures. I
                        >         wonder can result in underexposed?
                        >         Paul
                        >
                        >         On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Pete Lilja <plilja@...
                        >         <mailto:plilja@...>> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >             Very nice. You've got to be proud of your son. He seems to do a
                        >             lot of cool stuff!
                        >
                        >             That landing did look close. But that makes for an easy recovery.
                        >             We don't worry too much about that here in Iowa. But we can't get
                        >             pix of the Pacific, either.
                        >
                        >             It seems the pix are a bit underexposed. I find it's really
                        >             difficult to get good exposures throughout a flight. Underexposure
                        >             is, or so I'm told, better than over-exposure. The details are
                        >             still there - your just gotta coax them out with software.
                        >
                        >             Very nice! thanks for posting the link.
                        >
                        >             Pete
                        >
                        >             On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...
                        >             <mailto:sarbresam@...>> wrote:
                        >
                        >                 Sorry.
                        >
                        >                 I posted them in the Photos section of the GPSL site.
                        >
                        >                 here is a link...
                        >                 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GPSL/photos/album/10585105/pic/list
                        >
                        >                 Tim
                        >
                        >                 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        >                 *From:* Pete Lilja <plilja@... <mailto:plilja@...>>
                        >                 *To:* GPSL@yahoogroups.com <mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
                        >                 *Sent:* Thu, September 30, 2010 3:51:20 PM
                        >                 *Subject:* Re: [GPSL] New Pictues
                        >
                        >                 You posted them where?
                        >
                        >                 Pete
                        >
                        >                 On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:20 PM, sarbresam
                        >                 <sarbresam@... <mailto:sarbresam@...>> wrote:
                        >
                        >                     I posted some photos from my sons launch on 9/26/2010. I
                        >                     thought you would enjoy the images of the Pacific ocean
                        >                     and just how close it landed to the freeway. He was very
                        >                     lucky.
                        >
                        >                     Tim
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >         --
                        >         Onwards and Upwards,
                        >         Paul
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Onwards and Upwards,
                        > Paul
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        Mike Manes    mrmanes@...     Tel: 303-979-4899
                        "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                        A. Einstein


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                        --
                        Onwards and Upwards,
                        Paul
                      • Mike Manes
                        Using a window over the camera view port is a mixed bag. Yes, it can fog up, but it also keeps dust out of the camera. One of the Canon 560 s nastier failure
                        Message 11 of 14 , Oct 1, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Using a window over the camera view port is a mixed bag. Yes, it can fog up,
                          but it also keeps dust out of the camera. One of the Canon 560's nastier
                          failure modes is getting dirt in the lens extension mechanism. Eastern CO
                          is typical of the dust bowl of the '30's in the summer.

                          I use a very thin film window (ink jet transparency stock with the rough side
                          cleaned up with isopropyl rubbing alcohol). The thin stock may allow internal
                          heat generated by the camera to keep the window fog-free if it's very close to
                          the lens.

                          I've not had a great deal of luck using RainX to prevent fogging on this
                          material, however.

                          73 de Mike W5VSI

                          On 10/1/2010 21:27, L. Paul Verhage wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > My first flight encountered fogging on ascent. It appears the window on the
                          > outside of the airframe got colder than the Styrofoam walls of the airframe.
                          > This was a launch from Kansas where we do have a "small" amount of humidity.
                          > Since that first flight, I've left left the camera port open to the air and
                          > have not suffered fogging for a camera inside the airframe looking out.
                          > I too have suffered fogging on descent (actually my camera did, I wasn't
                          > onboard ;) ). It seems to be a problem for the camera outside the airframe.
                          > I wonder if you can use a small CPU fan to blow air across the camera on descent?
                          > Paul
                          >
                          > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 8:34 PM, Mike Manes <mrmanes@...
                          > <mailto:mrmanes@...>> wrote:
                          >
                          > The only time I've run into condensation problems is during descent thru a
                          > thick cloud layer - the payload guts are cold, and the ambient wet air is
                          > infiltrating during descent. One trick that seemed to work a bit was to
                          > install a breather port packed with silica gel desiccant. The port was
                          > made from a pill bottle with the top and bottom perforated with 0.063"
                          > drilled holes.
                          >
                          > 73 de Mike W5VSI
                          >
                          > On 10/1/2010 13:01, Tim wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > <<I like the title of Project Finance Department!!>> Thanks Paul I do too,
                          > > however I like Dad much more.
                          > >
                          > > I am curious to know if you were using hand warmers when the fogging
                          > occurred?
                          > > On one of Brenden's attempts he used hand warmers and when we retrieved it
                          > > 45minutes after lift off the gear inside was so hot you could hardly
                          > touch it.
                          > > (This flight never made it passed 10k and is a long story for another
                          > thread.)
                          > > My point is condensation/fogging is caused by differences in temperature
                          > > inside to out. The flight from which these pictures came, his payload
                          > was not
                          > > even close to air tight, so the temp on the inside was the same as the
                          > > outside. On this flight he insulated the batteries from the cold and
                          > some of
                          > > the electronics but the camera was left to fend for itself. Yes some were
                          > > underexposed but none were fogged.
                          > >
                          > > Thoughts?
                          > >
                          > > What are others doing to fight condensation?
                          > >
                          > > Tim
                          > > Brenden's Dad/Project Finance Dept
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > > *From:* L. Paul Verhage <nearsys@... <mailto:nearsys@...>>
                          > > *To:* GPSL@yahoogroups.com <mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > *Sent:* Fri, October 1, 2010 11:41:41 AM
                          > > *Subject:* Re: [GPSL] New Pictues
                          > >
                          > > Is the UV filter on the camera lens? On the lens shoudl be fine since
                          > the air
                          > > should be dry inside the camera lens.
                          > > One thing I discovered is you don't want to put a filter on the airframe.
                          > > Moisture inside will condense on the window to create fogging.
                          > > I like the title of Project Finance Department!!
                          > >
                          > > Paul
                          > > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Roger Hammond <kc0mwm@...
                          > <mailto:kc0mwm@...>
                          > > <mailto:kc0mwm@... <mailto:kc0mwm@...>>> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Good job guys!
                          > >
                          > > Roger KC0MWM
                          > > CNNSP
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...
                          > <mailto:sarbresam@...>
                          > > <mailto:sarbresam@... <mailto:sarbresam@...>>> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yes I am very proud of Brenden.
                          > >
                          > > Photography is my hobby so I helped with the camera setup. I told
                          > > Brenden what the camera should do and he figured how to do with
                          > CHDK.
                          > > I have seen a bunch of photos that were blurred from payload
                          > spin. I
                          > > had Brenden set up the camera in aperture priority (AV) mode with a
                          > > shutter speed of 1/500. He also setup the camera to take RAW & JPG
                          > > photos, however the RAW photos failed. He used a Canon A470
                          > which has
                          > > a very small 5.75 x 4.31 mm sensor, which with a high shutter speed
                          > > and a small sensor you are bound to have them come out under
                          > exposed.
                          > > I didn't think it would be a big deal because he would have RAW
                          > images
                          > > that I could pull out the detail. The other problem was not
                          > being able
                          > > to use a UV/Haze filter. His next flight I hope he will be flying a
                          > > G11. The G11 will allow him to use filters and it has a much bigger
                          > > sensor. The G12 is coming out soon so I am hunting eBay for a
                          > cheap G11.
                          > >
                          > > Tim
                          > > Brenden's Dad/Project Finance Dept
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > > *From:* L. Paul Verhage <nearsys@...
                          > <mailto:nearsys@...> <mailto:nearsys@...
                          > <mailto:nearsys@...>>>
                          > > *To:* GPSL@yahoogroups.com <mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
                          > <mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com <mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com>>
                          > > *Sent:* Fri, October 1, 2010 10:18:00 AM
                          > >
                          > > *Subject:* Re: [GPSL] New Pictues
                          > >
                          > > Yes congrats.
                          > > You know, I suppose you could get a picture of the Pacific from
                          > Iowa
                          > > if you can get the balloon high enough. My calculation shows
                          > you just
                          > > ned to get the balloon to an altitude of 2.7 million feet.
                          > Ummm, how
                          > > much helium wil that take?
                          > > Usually I see problems with picture exposure when the camera's
                          > light
                          > > detector is covered. But that results in over exposed pictures. I
                          > > wonder can result in underexposed?
                          > > Paul
                          > >
                          > > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Pete Lilja <plilja@...
                          > <mailto:plilja@...>
                          > > <mailto:plilja@... <mailto:plilja@...>>> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Very nice. You've got to be proud of your son. He seems to do a
                          > > lot of cool stuff!
                          > >
                          > > That landing did look close. But that makes for an easy
                          > recovery.
                          > > We don't worry too much about that here in Iowa. But we
                          > can't get
                          > > pix of the Pacific, either.
                          > >
                          > > It seems the pix are a bit underexposed. I find it's really
                          > > difficult to get good exposures throughout a flight.
                          > Underexposure
                          > > is, or so I'm told, better than over-exposure. The details are
                          > > still there - your just gotta coax them out with software.
                          > >
                          > > Very nice! thanks for posting the link.
                          > >
                          > > Pete
                          > >
                          > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Tim <sarbresam@...
                          > <mailto:sarbresam@...>
                          > > <mailto:sarbresam@... <mailto:sarbresam@...>>> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Sorry.
                          > >
                          > > I posted them in the Photos section of the GPSL site.
                          > >
                          > > here is a link...
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GPSL/photos/album/10585105/pic/list
                          > >
                          > > Tim
                          > >
                          > >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > > *From:* Pete Lilja <plilja@...
                          > <mailto:plilja@...> <mailto:plilja@... <mailto:plilja@...>>>
                          > > *To:* GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com> <mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com>>
                          > > *Sent:* Thu, September 30, 2010 3:51:20 PM
                          > > *Subject:* Re: [GPSL] New Pictues
                          > >
                          > > You posted them where?
                          > >
                          > > Pete
                          > >
                          > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:20 PM, sarbresam
                          > > <sarbresam@... <mailto:sarbresam@...>
                          > <mailto:sarbresam@... <mailto:sarbresam@...>>> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I posted some photos from my sons launch on
                          > 9/26/2010. I
                          > > thought you would enjoy the images of the Pacific ocean
                          > > and just how close it landed to the freeway. He was
                          > very
                          > > lucky.
                          > >
                          > > Tim
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > Onwards and Upwards,
                          > > Paul
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > Onwards and Upwards,
                          > > Paul
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Mike Manes mrmanes@... <mailto:mrmanes@...> Tel: 303-979-4899
                          > "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                          > A. Einstein
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Onwards and Upwards,
                          > Paul
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          --
                          Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                          "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                          A. Einstein
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