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Re: [GPSL] Balloons and filling them

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  • Joe
    if he is using the pressure method to calculate how many cuft he has used, how does one do this with a direct hook up? Joe WB9SBD Near Space Sciences
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 7 12:58 PM
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      if he is using the pressure method to calculate how many cuft he has used,  how does one do this with a direct hook up?

      Joe WB9SBD
      Near Space Sciences

      Mike Manes wrote:
      Hi Ron,
      
      Does your 3.5 lb neck load include a parachute?
      
      Since Totex products typically are transported from Japan by sea, restocking
      can take a while.  You might consider going with the more popular (and heavily 
      stocked) KCI-1200.  That'll save you some $$$ in rubber & gas and still get 
      you to 100K', +/- a little.
      
      EOSS used to use a regulator on the tank, but we ran into too many problems
      with it freezing up from ambient humidity - so we just go directly into the
      1/2" rubber fill hose and use the tank valve to control flow.  Crack and close
      the valve a skosh before attaching the hose to the balloon to free up any 
      sticktion.  Some folks have used ordinary garden hose, but it's a bit stiffer
      and heavier.
      
      Start your fill very gradually, watching out for twists and "luffing".  Once
      the balloon has enough gas to lift it off the tarp, you can crank up the flow.
      
      Another hint: if you have some investment in the flight already when you're
      ready to fill (a long trip to the launch site, deployed trackers, etc), it
      might be a good idea to have a spare balloon plus gas to fill it on site, just
      to keep Murphy at bay.  Most gas suppliers will refund uncracked bottles; 
      our's uses a "medical seal" on the valve guard to ID uncracked bottles.
      
      73 de Mike W5VSI
      
      k6rpt wrote:
        
      Thanks again for all the information on balloons and filling them. I think I will use 
          
      the KCI-1500 with the following: Balloon Diameter 6.6', Balloon Volume 154 cu ft,
      Nozzle Lift 6.78 lbs, Peak Altitude 107 k, Ascend Speed 1000 fpm, Free Lift 
      3.28 lbs
      and my pay load will be 3.5 lbs. I called the gas supplier and they have the 
      industrial
      grade at 99 %. The tank sizes are, 150, 200, 250 and 300 cu ft. I will attach 
      a weight
      of 6.5 lbs "tare weight" to the fill tube prior to starting the fill, 
      providing the
      weather permits. The 200 cu ft tank has 2400 psi, so when the psi on the tank 
      drops
      to 922 psi when the valve is off, I should have 154 cu ft. I called Kaymont 
      and they
      are out of stock on the KCI-1500 and did not know when they would be in. I 
      hope it does
      not take them long to restock. I assume you would use a regulator for the tank 
      that
      would fill the balloon quickly?
        
      -Ron K6RPT
      
      
      
      
      ------------------------------------
      
      Yahoo! Groups Links
      
      
      
      
          
        

      No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.406 / Virus Database: 270.13.46/2288 - Release Date: 08/07/09 13:13:00
    • Mike Manes
      Hi Ron, Does your 3.5 lb neck load include a parachute? Since Totex products typically are transported from Japan by sea, restocking can take a while. You
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 7 1:09 PM
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        Hi Ron,

        Does your 3.5 lb neck load include a parachute?

        Since Totex products typically are transported from Japan by sea, restocking
        can take a while. You might consider going with the more popular (and heavily
        stocked) KCI-1200. That'll save you some $$$ in rubber & gas and still get
        you to 100K', +/- a little.

        EOSS used to use a regulator on the tank, but we ran into too many problems
        with it freezing up from ambient humidity - so we just go directly into the
        1/2" rubber fill hose and use the tank valve to control flow. Crack and close
        the valve a skosh before attaching the hose to the balloon to free up any
        sticktion. Some folks have used ordinary garden hose, but it's a bit stiffer
        and heavier.

        Start your fill very gradually, watching out for twists and "luffing". Once
        the balloon has enough gas to lift it off the tarp, you can crank up the flow.

        Another hint: if you have some investment in the flight already when you're
        ready to fill (a long trip to the launch site, deployed trackers, etc), it
        might be a good idea to have a spare balloon plus gas to fill it on site, just
        to keep Murphy at bay. Most gas suppliers will refund uncracked bottles;
        our's uses a "medical seal" on the valve guard to ID uncracked bottles.

        73 de Mike W5VSI

        k6rpt wrote:
        > Thanks again for all the information on balloons and filling them. I think I will use
        the KCI-1500 with the following: Balloon Diameter 6.6', Balloon Volume 154 cu ft,
        Nozzle Lift 6.78 lbs, Peak Altitude 107 k, Ascend Speed 1000 fpm, Free Lift
        3.28 lbs
        and my pay load will be 3.5 lbs. I called the gas supplier and they have the
        industrial
        grade at 99 %. The tank sizes are, 150, 200, 250 and 300 cu ft. I will attach
        a weight
        of 6.5 lbs "tare weight" to the fill tube prior to starting the fill,
        providing the
        weather permits. The 200 cu ft tank has 2400 psi, so when the psi on the tank
        drops
        to 922 psi when the valve is off, I should have 154 cu ft. I called Kaymont
        and they
        are out of stock on the KCI-1500 and did not know when they would be in. I
        hope it does
        not take them long to restock. I assume you would use a regulator for the tank
        that
        would fill the balloon quickly?
        >
        > -Ron K6RPT
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
        "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
        A. Einstein
      • Joe
        ahhh
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 7 1:28 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          ahhh

          Mike Manes wrote:
          Ron said: "I will attach a weight of 6.5 lbs "tare weight" to the fill tube
          prior to starting the fill,...". The pressure drop method is a backup to deal
          with possible false lift. I assume he's got a pressure guage on the tank.
          
          Joe wrote:
            
          if he is using the pressure method to calculate how many cuft he has 
          used,  how does one do this with a direct hook up?
          
          Joe WB9SBD
          Near Space Sciences
          
          Mike Manes wrote:
              
          Hi Ron,
          
          Does your 3.5 lb neck load include a parachute?
          
          Since Totex products typically are transported from Japan by sea, restocking
          can take a while.  You might consider going with the more popular (and heavily 
          stocked) KCI-1200.  That'll save you some $$$ in rubber & gas and still get 
          you to 100K', +/- a little.
          
          EOSS used to use a regulator on the tank, but we ran into too many problems
          with it freezing up from ambient humidity - so we just go directly into the
          1/2" rubber fill hose and use the tank valve to control flow.  Crack and close
          the valve a skosh before attaching the hose to the balloon to free up any 
          sticktion.  Some folks have used ordinary garden hose, but it's a bit stiffer
          and heavier.
          
          Start your fill very gradually, watching out for twists and "luffing".  Once
          the balloon has enough gas to lift it off the tarp, you can crank up the flow.
          
          Another hint: if you have some investment in the flight already when you're
          ready to fill (a long trip to the launch site, deployed trackers, etc), it
          might be a good idea to have a spare balloon plus gas to fill it on site, just
          to keep Murphy at bay.  Most gas suppliers will refund uncracked bottles; 
          our's uses a "medical seal" on the valve guard to ID uncracked bottles.
          
          73 de Mike W5VSI
          
          k6rpt wrote:
            
                
          Thanks again for all the information on balloons and filling them. I think I will use 
              
                  
          the KCI-1500 with the following: Balloon Diameter 6.6', Balloon Volume 154 cu ft,
          Nozzle Lift 6.78 lbs, Peak Altitude 107 k, Ascend Speed 1000 fpm, Free Lift 
          3.28 lbs
          and my pay load will be 3.5 lbs. I called the gas supplier and they have the 
          industrial
          grade at 99 %. The tank sizes are, 150, 200, 250 and 300 cu ft. I will attach 
          a weight
          of 6.5 lbs "tare weight" to the fill tube prior to starting the fill, 
          providing the
          weather permits. The 200 cu ft tank has 2400 psi, so when the psi on the tank 
          drops
          to 922 psi when the valve is off, I should have 154 cu ft. I called Kaymont 
          and they
          are out of stock on the KCI-1500 and did not know when they would be in. I 
          hope it does
          not take them long to restock. I assume you would use a regulator for the tank 
          that
          would fill the balloon quickly?
            
                
          -Ron K6RPT
          
          
          
          
          ------------------------------------
          
          Yahoo! Groups Links
          
          
          
          
              
                  
            
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          
          
          No virus found in this incoming message.
          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
          Version: 8.5.406 / Virus Database: 270.13.46/2288 - Release Date: 08/07/09 13:13:00
          
            
                
          
              
            

          No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.406 / Virus Database: 270.13.46/2288 - Release Date: 08/07/09 13:13:00
        • Mike Manes
          Ron said: I will attach a weight of 6.5 lbs tare weight to the fill tube prior to starting the fill,... . The pressure drop method is a backup to deal with
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 7 2:12 PM
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            Ron said: "I will attach a weight of 6.5 lbs "tare weight" to the fill tube
            prior to starting the fill,...". The pressure drop method is a backup to deal
            with possible false lift. I assume he's got a pressure guage on the tank.

            Joe wrote:
            >
            >
            > if he is using the pressure method to calculate how many cuft he has
            > used, how does one do this with a direct hook up?
            >
            > Joe WB9SBD
            > Near Space Sciences
            >
            > Mike Manes wrote:
            >> Hi Ron,
            >>
            >> Does your 3.5 lb neck load include a parachute?
            >>
            >> Since Totex products typically are transported from Japan by sea, restocking
            >> can take a while. You might consider going with the more popular (and heavily
            >> stocked) KCI-1200. That'll save you some $$$ in rubber & gas and still get
            >> you to 100K', +/- a little.
            >>
            >> EOSS used to use a regulator on the tank, but we ran into too many problems
            >> with it freezing up from ambient humidity - so we just go directly into the
            >> 1/2" rubber fill hose and use the tank valve to control flow. Crack and close
            >> the valve a skosh before attaching the hose to the balloon to free up any
            >> sticktion. Some folks have used ordinary garden hose, but it's a bit stiffer
            >> and heavier.
            >>
            >> Start your fill very gradually, watching out for twists and "luffing". Once
            >> the balloon has enough gas to lift it off the tarp, you can crank up the flow.
            >>
            >> Another hint: if you have some investment in the flight already when you're
            >> ready to fill (a long trip to the launch site, deployed trackers, etc), it
            >> might be a good idea to have a spare balloon plus gas to fill it on site, just
            >> to keep Murphy at bay. Most gas suppliers will refund uncracked bottles;
            >> our's uses a "medical seal" on the valve guard to ID uncracked bottles.
            >>
            >> 73 de Mike W5VSI
            >>
            >> k6rpt wrote:
            >>
            >>> Thanks again for all the information on balloons and filling them. I think I will use
            >>>
            >> the KCI-1500 with the following: Balloon Diameter 6.6', Balloon Volume 154 cu ft,
            >> Nozzle Lift 6.78 lbs, Peak Altitude 107 k, Ascend Speed 1000 fpm, Free Lift
            >> 3.28 lbs
            >> and my pay load will be 3.5 lbs. I called the gas supplier and they have the
            >> industrial
            >> grade at 99 %. The tank sizes are, 150, 200, 250 and 300 cu ft. I will attach
            >> a weight
            >> of 6.5 lbs "tare weight" to the fill tube prior to starting the fill,
            >> providing the
            >> weather permits. The 200 cu ft tank has 2400 psi, so when the psi on the tank
            >> drops
            >> to 922 psi when the valve is off, I should have 154 cu ft. I called Kaymont
            >> and they
            >> are out of stock on the KCI-1500 and did not know when they would be in. I
            >> hope it does
            >> not take them long to restock. I assume you would use a regulator for the tank
            >> that
            >> would fill the balloon quickly?
            >>
            >>> -Ron K6RPT
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>> ------------------------------------
            >>>
            >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >>
            >>
            >> No virus found in this incoming message.
            >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            >> Version: 8.5.406 / Virus Database: 270.13.46/2288 - Release Date: 08/07/09 13:13:00
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
            "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
            A. Einstein
          • k6rpt
            If no regulator is needed, I will build a setup that will have the 2600 psi gauge between the tank and a new gate valve. I will fill using the new gate valve
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 7 4:24 PM
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              If no regulator is needed, I will build a setup that will have the 2600 psi gauge between the tank and a new gate valve. I will fill using the new gate valve and shut it off to check tank psi during the fill. I will look for a very light and flexible fill hose with an od of 3 cm. The 3.5 lbs is approximate payload weight, I just received the chute today and I will add it to the payload weight.

              Has Bill recovered his payload from today's launch?

              Thanks, Ron K6RPT


              --- In GPSL@yahoogroups.com, Mike Manes <mrmanes@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Ron,
              >
              > Does your 3.5 lb neck load include a parachute?
              >
              > Since Totex products typically are transported from Japan by sea, restocking
              > can take a while. You might consider going with the more popular (and heavily
              > stocked) KCI-1200. That'll save you some $$$ in rubber & gas and still get
              > you to 100K', +/- a little.
              >
              > EOSS used to use a regulator on the tank, but we ran into too many problems
              > with it freezing up from ambient humidity - so we just go directly into the
              > 1/2" rubber fill hose and use the tank valve to control flow. Crack and close
              > the valve a skosh before attaching the hose to the balloon to free up any
              > sticktion. Some folks have used ordinary garden hose, but it's a bit stiffer
              > and heavier.
              >
              > Start your fill very gradually, watching out for twists and "luffing". Once
              > the balloon has enough gas to lift it off the tarp, you can crank up the flow.
              >
              > Another hint: if you have some investment in the flight already when you're
              > ready to fill (a long trip to the launch site, deployed trackers, etc), it
              > might be a good idea to have a spare balloon plus gas to fill it on site, just
              > to keep Murphy at bay. Most gas suppliers will refund uncracked bottles;
              > our's uses a "medical seal" on the valve guard to ID uncracked bottles.
              >
              > 73 de Mike W5VSI
              >
              > k6rpt wrote:
              > > Thanks again for all the information on balloons and filling them. I think I will use
              > the KCI-1500 with the following: Balloon Diameter 6.6', Balloon Volume 154 cu ft,
              > Nozzle Lift 6.78 lbs, Peak Altitude 107 k, Ascend Speed 1000 fpm, Free Lift
              > 3.28 lbs
              > and my pay load will be 3.5 lbs. I called the gas supplier and they have the
              > industrial
              > grade at 99 %. The tank sizes are, 150, 200, 250 and 300 cu ft. I will attach
              > a weight
              > of 6.5 lbs "tare weight" to the fill tube prior to starting the fill,
              > providing the
              > weather permits. The 200 cu ft tank has 2400 psi, so when the psi on the tank
              > drops
              > to 922 psi when the valve is off, I should have 154 cu ft. I called Kaymont
              > and they
              > are out of stock on the KCI-1500 and did not know when they would be in. I
              > hope it does
              > not take them long to restock. I assume you would use a regulator for the tank
              > that
              > would fill the balloon quickly?
              > >
              > > -Ron K6RPT
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > --
              > Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
              > "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
              > A. Einstein
              >
            • Mike Manes
              Better be sure that gate valve is rated for that sort of pressure. It s also a good idea to get a kink-resistant hose; a kinked common rubber hose doesn t
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 7 6:00 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                Better be sure that gate valve is rated for that sort of pressure. It's also
                a good idea to get a kink-resistant hose; a kinked common rubber hose doesn't
                stand a chance against 2600 psi. And you could get by with a bit smaller
                hose; a 1/2" ID does provide some flow resistance that helps keep flow under
                control.

                I think Bill did post a landing lat/lon, so at least he knows where to fetch
                it from if he got his hands on it yet.

                73 de Mike W5VSI


                k6rpt wrote:
                > If no regulator is needed, I will build a setup that will have the 2600 psi gauge between
                the tank and a new gate valve. I will fill using the new gate valve and shut
                it off to
                check tank psi during the fill. I will look for a very light and flexible fill
                hose with an
                od of 3 cm. The 3.5 lbs is approximate payload weight, I just received the
                chute today and
                I will add it to the payload weight.
                >
                > Has Bill recovered his payload from today's launch?
                >
                > Thanks, Ron K6RPT
                >
                >
                > --- In GPSL@yahoogroups.com, Mike Manes <mrmanes@...> wrote:
                >> Hi Ron,
                >>
                >> Does your 3.5 lb neck load include a parachute?
                >>
                >> Since Totex products typically are transported from Japan by sea, restocking
                >> can take a while. You might consider going with the more popular (and heavily
                >> stocked) KCI-1200. That'll save you some $$$ in rubber & gas and still get
                >> you to 100K', +/- a little.
                >>
                >> EOSS used to use a regulator on the tank, but we ran into too many problems
                >> with it freezing up from ambient humidity - so we just go directly into the
                >> 1/2" rubber fill hose and use the tank valve to control flow. Crack and close
                >> the valve a skosh before attaching the hose to the balloon to free up any
                >> sticktion. Some folks have used ordinary garden hose, but it's a bit stiffer
                >> and heavier.
                >>
                >> Start your fill very gradually, watching out for twists and "luffing". Once
                >> the balloon has enough gas to lift it off the tarp, you can crank up the flow.
                >>
                >> Another hint: if you have some investment in the flight already when you're
                >> ready to fill (a long trip to the launch site, deployed trackers, etc), it
                >> might be a good idea to have a spare balloon plus gas to fill it on site, just
                >> to keep Murphy at bay. Most gas suppliers will refund uncracked bottles;
                >> our's uses a "medical seal" on the valve guard to ID uncracked bottles.
                >>
                >> 73 de Mike W5VSI
                >>
                >> k6rpt wrote:
                >>> Thanks again for all the information on balloons and filling them. I think I will use
                >> the KCI-1500 with the following: Balloon Diameter 6.6', Balloon Volume 154 cu ft,
                >> Nozzle Lift 6.78 lbs, Peak Altitude 107 k, Ascend Speed 1000 fpm, Free Lift
                >> 3.28 lbs
                >> and my pay load will be 3.5 lbs. I called the gas supplier and they have the
                >> industrial
                >> grade at 99 %. The tank sizes are, 150, 200, 250 and 300 cu ft. I will attach
                >> a weight
                >> of 6.5 lbs "tare weight" to the fill tube prior to starting the fill,
                >> providing the
                >> weather permits. The 200 cu ft tank has 2400 psi, so when the psi on the tank
                >> drops
                >> to 922 psi when the valve is off, I should have 154 cu ft. I called Kaymont
                >> and they
                >> are out of stock on the KCI-1500 and did not know when they would be in. I
                >> hope it does
                >> not take them long to restock. I assume you would use a regulator for the tank
                >> that
                >> would fill the balloon quickly?
                >>> -Ron K6RPT
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> ------------------------------------
                >>>
                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >> --
                >> Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                >> "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                >> A. Einstein
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                A. Einstein
              • k6rpt
                Thanks Mike, I will make sure the valve is good at 2600 psi and maybe a restrictor washer might be good to help regulate the flow. -Ron K6RPT
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 8 10:30 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks Mike, I will make sure the valve is good at 2600 psi and maybe a restrictor washer might be good to help regulate the flow.

                  -Ron K6RPT


                  --- In GPSL@yahoogroups.com, Mike Manes <mrmanes@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Better be sure that gate valve is rated for that sort of pressure. It's also
                  > a good idea to get a kink-resistant hose; a kinked common rubber hose doesn't
                  > stand a chance against 2600 psi. And you could get by with a bit smaller
                  > hose; a 1/2" ID does provide some flow resistance that helps keep flow under
                  > control.
                  >
                  > I think Bill did post a landing lat/lon, so at least he knows where to fetch
                  > it from if he got his hands on it yet.
                  >
                  > 73 de Mike W5VSI
                  >
                  >
                  > k6rpt wrote:
                  > > If no regulator is needed, I will build a setup that will have the 2600 psi gauge between
                  > the tank and a new gate valve. I will fill using the new gate valve and shut
                  > it off to
                  > check tank psi during the fill. I will look for a very light and flexible fill
                  > hose with an
                  > od of 3 cm. The 3.5 lbs is approximate payload weight, I just received the
                  > chute today and
                  > I will add it to the payload weight.
                  > >
                  > > Has Bill recovered his payload from today's launch?
                  > >
                  > > Thanks, Ron K6RPT
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In GPSL@yahoogroups.com, Mike Manes <mrmanes@> wrote:
                  > >> Hi Ron,
                  > >>
                  > >> Does your 3.5 lb neck load include a parachute?
                  > >>
                  > >> Since Totex products typically are transported from Japan by sea, restocking
                  > >> can take a while. You might consider going with the more popular (and heavily
                  > >> stocked) KCI-1200. That'll save you some $$$ in rubber & gas and still get
                  > >> you to 100K', +/- a little.
                  > >>
                  > >> EOSS used to use a regulator on the tank, but we ran into too many problems
                  > >> with it freezing up from ambient humidity - so we just go directly into the
                  > >> 1/2" rubber fill hose and use the tank valve to control flow. Crack and close
                  > >> the valve a skosh before attaching the hose to the balloon to free up any
                  > >> sticktion. Some folks have used ordinary garden hose, but it's a bit stiffer
                  > >> and heavier.
                  > >>
                  > >> Start your fill very gradually, watching out for twists and "luffing". Once
                  > >> the balloon has enough gas to lift it off the tarp, you can crank up the flow.
                  > >>
                  > >> Another hint: if you have some investment in the flight already when you're
                  > >> ready to fill (a long trip to the launch site, deployed trackers, etc), it
                  > >> might be a good idea to have a spare balloon plus gas to fill it on site, just
                  > >> to keep Murphy at bay. Most gas suppliers will refund uncracked bottles;
                  > >> our's uses a "medical seal" on the valve guard to ID uncracked bottles.
                  > >>
                  > >> 73 de Mike W5VSI
                  > >>
                  > >> k6rpt wrote:
                  > >>> Thanks again for all the information on balloons and filling them. I think I will use
                  > >> the KCI-1500 with the following: Balloon Diameter 6.6', Balloon Volume 154 cu ft,
                  > >> Nozzle Lift 6.78 lbs, Peak Altitude 107 k, Ascend Speed 1000 fpm, Free Lift
                  > >> 3.28 lbs
                  > >> and my pay load will be 3.5 lbs. I called the gas supplier and they have the
                  > >> industrial
                  > >> grade at 99 %. The tank sizes are, 150, 200, 250 and 300 cu ft. I will attach
                  > >> a weight
                  > >> of 6.5 lbs "tare weight" to the fill tube prior to starting the fill,
                  > >> providing the
                  > >> weather permits. The 200 cu ft tank has 2400 psi, so when the psi on the tank
                  > >> drops
                  > >> to 922 psi when the valve is off, I should have 154 cu ft. I called Kaymont
                  > >> and they
                  > >> are out of stock on the KCI-1500 and did not know when they would be in. I
                  > >> hope it does
                  > >> not take them long to restock. I assume you would use a regulator for the tank
                  > >> that
                  > >> would fill the balloon quickly?
                  > >>> -Ron K6RPT
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>> ------------------------------------
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >> --
                  > >> Mike Manes mrmanes@ Tel: 303-979-4899
                  > >> "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                  > >> A. Einstein
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                  > "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                  > A. Einstein
                  >
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