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Re: [GPSL] Re: [Ballooning] Camera lens frost.

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  • Joe
    and for us the only time was when coming down from the cold to hot humid summer air, then we d fog up but soon to dry up Joe Near Space Sciences
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 11, 2008
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      and for us the only time was when coming down from the cold to hot humid summer air,  then we'd fog up  but soon to dry up
      Joe Near Space Sciences

      John Nordlie wrote:
      I'd second that.  The only times we've had icing problems is when
      we tried using windows.  A bare lens never gave us problems,
      except for the one that landed in a lake :-).
      
      L. Paul Verhage wrote:
        
      I recommend not using windows.  I've not had a problem with cameras 
      whose lens is exposed to near space.  The rest of it is stored in a 
      Styrofoam box.
       
      Paul
      
      On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Mike Manes <mrmanes@... 
      <mailto:mrmanes@...>> wrote:
      
          Hi Bruce,
      
          We've had some luck using a window made from clear mylar sheet over
          the view
          port, coated with windshield-grade RainX.  A handy source of clear
          mylar is
          an old inkjet transparency cleaned off using 70% isopropyl alcohol.  The
          window prevents forced convection from the slipstream and keeps whatever
          warm air inside.  But, if the inside air is moist, it can frost up the
          interior surface of the window.  We've used the little desiccant
          packs that
          come with some electronics to combat that issue.
      
          You're wise NOT to apply anything to the lens surface directly, as that
          would risk damaging the anti-reflective coating.
      
          If can keep the lens temperature above the dew point using copious
          insulation
          and waste heat from the camera and other heat generators in the payload,
          that'll work, too. I heard a story that TV cameramen at the winter
          Olympics
          a few years ago would connect a pair of 9V alkaline transistor radio
          batteries
          face to face, effectively shorting them out, and duct taping them to
          their
          lenses to keep 'em warm.
      
          One other scheme that's worked for us is to use a pair of crossed
          polarized
          plastic filter sheets over our up-looking camera port, originally
          intended to
          form a 1% transmissive filter to reduce image contrast so we could
          see the
          shading on the balloon.  99% of the light striking this filter is
          absorbed,
          producing heat.  That window also has a homebrew sunshade painted
          flat black
          to keep direct sunlight from making flares in the image.
      
          73 de Mike W5VSI
          CTO EOSS
      
          Bruce Coates wrote:
           > Hi
           >
           > I'm searching for a solution to frost on our camera lenses as high
           > altitude.  We're using Polaroid iZone 300 cameras which have
          quite small
           > lenses, about 1/8 inch in diameter.  At high altitudes we're noticing
           > frost starting to form on the lenses.  It appears as what looks
          like a
           > hair in the lens.  Over time, several "hairs" begin to appear until
           > there are a dozen or more in the frame.  As we descend, the frost
           > disappears.  Our cameras are mounted inside the payload with pyramid
           > shaped viewing ports the Styrofoam walls for the lenses.
           >
           > Have other people encountered this?  If so, did you find a solution?
           > Some ideas I have include a "window" at the outside edge of the
          camera
           > ports, perhaps with thin glass or Saran Wrap.  This might help to
           > isolate the cameras from the elements and help keep the lenses
          warmer.
           > It may also just attract more frost.  It also has the potential for
           > distorting the image and getting contaminated with dust before
          launch.
           > Another is to better insulate around the cameras and move heat
           > generating devices like voltage regulators to help keep them warmer.
           > Down here on earth, you could also circulate air across the
          lenses but
           > that's pretty tough to do where there is no air.  The thought of
          some of
           > the after market windshield coatings like Rain-X crossed my mind but
           > they would probably interfere with or damage the lenses coating.
           >
           > Any ideas would be appreciated.
           >
           > Thanks
           >
           > Bruce - VE5BNC
           > Saskatoon Amateur Radio Club
           > http://ve5aa.dyndns.org <http://ve5aa.dyndns.org/>
           >
      
          --
          Mike Manes    mrmanes@... <mailto:mrmanes@...>     Tel:
          303-979-4899
          "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
          A. Einstein
      
          ------------------------------------
      
          Yahoo! Groups Links
      
      
             mailto:GPSL-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:GPSL-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com>
      
      
      
      
      
      -- 
      Onwards and Upwards,
      Paul
      
          
        
    • Mike Manes
      Be careful to get the handwarmers that carry their own oxidizer - some of em rely ambient O2 which there s not much of at 10 mbar! 73 de Mike W5VSI ... --
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 11, 2008
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        Be careful to get the handwarmers that carry their own oxidizer - some of
        'em rely ambient O2 which there's not much of at 10 mbar!
        73 de Mike W5VSI

        Charles Laughlin wrote:
        > There are of course those small chemical handwarmers that are like large
        > tea bags that produce heat inside one's gloves over a couple of hours.
        > Maybe one of them in the package. They take 30 minutes to really get
        > going, so one could start them just at the beginning of the flight.
        >
        > Charlie Laughlin
        >
        > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:23 AM, Mike Manes <mrmanes@...
        > <mailto:mrmanes@...>> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Bruce,
        >
        > We've had some luck using a window made from clear mylar sheet over
        > the view
        > port, coated with windshield-grade RainX. A handy source of clear
        > mylar is
        > an old inkjet transparency cleaned off using 70% isopropyl alcohol. The
        > window prevents forced convection from the slipstream and keeps whatever
        > warm air inside. But, if the inside air is moist, it can frost up the
        > interior surface of the window. We've used the little desiccant
        > packs that
        > come with some electronics to combat that issue.
        >
        > You're wise NOT to apply anything to the lens surface directly, as that
        > would risk damaging the anti-reflective coating.
        >
        > If can keep the lens temperature above the dew point using copious
        > insulation
        > and waste heat from the camera and other heat generators in the payload,
        > that'll work, too. I heard a story that TV cameramen at the winter
        > Olympics
        > a few years ago would connect a pair of 9V alkaline transistor radio
        > batteries
        > face to face, effectively shorting them out, and duct taping them to
        > their
        > lenses to keep 'em warm.
        >
        > One other scheme that's worked for us is to use a pair of crossed
        > polarized
        > plastic filter sheets over our up-looking camera port, originally
        > intended to
        > form a 1% transmissive filter to reduce image contrast so we could
        > see the
        > shading on the balloon. 99% of the light striking this filter is
        > absorbed,
        > producing heat. That window also has a homebrew sunshade painted
        > flat black
        > to keep direct sunlight from making flares in the image.
        >
        > 73 de Mike W5VSI
        > CTO EOSS
        >
        > Bruce Coates wrote:
        > > Hi
        > >
        > > I'm searching for a solution to frost on our camera lenses as high
        > > altitude. We're using Polaroid iZone 300 cameras which have
        > quite small
        > > lenses, about 1/8 inch in diameter. At high altitudes we're noticing
        > > frost starting to form on the lenses. It appears as what looks
        > like a
        > > hair in the lens. Over time, several "hairs" begin to appear until
        > > there are a dozen or more in the frame. As we descend, the frost
        > > disappears. Our cameras are mounted inside the payload with pyramid
        > > shaped viewing ports the Styrofoam walls for the lenses.
        > >
        > > Have other people encountered this? If so, did you find a solution?
        > > Some ideas I have include a "window" at the outside edge of the
        > camera
        > > ports, perhaps with thin glass or Saran Wrap. This might help to
        > > isolate the cameras from the elements and help keep the lenses
        > warmer.
        > > It may also just attract more frost. It also has the potential for
        > > distorting the image and getting contaminated with dust before
        > launch.
        > > Another is to better insulate around the cameras and move heat
        > > generating devices like voltage regulators to help keep them warmer.
        > > Down here on earth, you could also circulate air across the
        > lenses but
        > > that's pretty tough to do where there is no air. The thought of
        > some of
        > > the after market windshield coatings like Rain-X crossed my mind but
        > > they would probably interfere with or damage the lenses coating.
        > >
        > > Any ideas would be appreciated.
        > >
        > > Thanks
        > >
        > > Bruce - VE5BNC
        > > Saskatoon Amateur Radio Club
        > > http://ve5aa.dyndns.org <http://ve5aa.dyndns.org/>
        > >
        >
        > --
        > Mike Manes mrmanes@... <mailto:mrmanes@...> Tel:
        > 303-979-4899
        > "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
        > A. Einstein
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > To start sending messages to members of this group,
        > simply send email to
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        >
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        >
        > Moderator, Ballooning
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
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        >
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Check out my Blog: http://charleslaughlin.blogspot.com/
        >

        --
        Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
        "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
        A. Einstein
      • L. Paul Verhage
        I m thinking about warming my capsules with an electric hair drier 30 minutes prior to launch, while the balloon is being filled. That should get it toasty
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 12, 2008
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          I'm thinking about warming my capsules with an electric hair drier 30 minutes prior to launch, while the balloon is being filled.  That should get it toasty warm and I hope, keep it warmer during the entire mission.
           
          Paul "who doesn't have as much hair to dry as he use to" Verhage

          On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 9:45 PM, Mike Manes <mrmanes@...> wrote:
          Be careful to get the handwarmers that carry their own oxidizer - some of
          'em rely ambient O2 which there's not much of at 10 mbar!
          73 de Mike W5VSI

          Charles Laughlin wrote:
          > There are of course those small chemical handwarmers that are like large
          > tea bags that produce heat inside one's gloves over a couple of hours.
          > Maybe one of them in the package.  They take 30 minutes to really get
          > going, so one could start them just at the beginning of the flight.
          >
          > Charlie Laughlin
          >
          > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:23 AM, Mike Manes <mrmanes@...
          > <mailto:mrmanes@...>> wrote:
          >
          >     Hi Bruce,
          >
          >     We've had some luck using a window made from clear mylar sheet over
          >     the view
          >     port, coated with windshield-grade RainX.  A handy source of clear
          >     mylar is
          >     an old inkjet transparency cleaned off using 70% isopropyl alcohol.  The
          >     window prevents forced convection from the slipstream and keeps whatever
          >     warm air inside.  But, if the inside air is moist, it can frost up the
          >     interior surface of the window.  We've used the little desiccant
          >     packs that
          >     come with some electronics to combat that issue.
          >
          >     You're wise NOT to apply anything to the lens surface directly, as that
          >     would risk damaging the anti-reflective coating.
          >
          >     If can keep the lens temperature above the dew point using copious
          >     insulation
          >     and waste heat from the camera and other heat generators in the payload,
          >     that'll work, too. I heard a story that TV cameramen at the winter
          >     Olympics
          >     a few years ago would connect a pair of 9V alkaline transistor radio
          >     batteries
          >     face to face, effectively shorting them out, and duct taping them to
          >     their
          >     lenses to keep 'em warm.
          >
          >     One other scheme that's worked for us is to use a pair of crossed
          >     polarized
          >     plastic filter sheets over our up-looking camera port, originally
          >     intended to
          >     form a 1% transmissive filter to reduce image contrast so we could
          >     see the
          >     shading on the balloon.  99% of the light striking this filter is
          >     absorbed,
          >     producing heat.  That window also has a homebrew sunshade painted
          >     flat black
          >     to keep direct sunlight from making flares in the image.
          >
          >     73 de Mike W5VSI
          >     CTO EOSS
          >
          >     Bruce Coates wrote:
          >      > Hi
          >      >
          >      > I'm searching for a solution to frost on our camera lenses as high
          >      > altitude.  We're using Polaroid iZone 300 cameras which have
          >     quite small
          >      > lenses, about 1/8 inch in diameter.  At high altitudes we're noticing
          >      > frost starting to form on the lenses.  It appears as what looks
          >     like a
          >      > hair in the lens.  Over time, several "hairs" begin to appear until
          >      > there are a dozen or more in the frame.  As we descend, the frost
          >      > disappears.  Our cameras are mounted inside the payload with pyramid
          >      > shaped viewing ports the Styrofoam walls for the lenses.
          >      >
          >      > Have other people encountered this?  If so, did you find a solution?
          >      > Some ideas I have include a "window" at the outside edge of the
          >     camera
          >      > ports, perhaps with thin glass or Saran Wrap.  This might help to
          >      > isolate the cameras from the elements and help keep the lenses
          >     warmer.
          >      > It may also just attract more frost.  It also has the potential for
          >      > distorting the image and getting contaminated with dust before
          >     launch.
          >      > Another is to better insulate around the cameras and move heat
          >      > generating devices like voltage regulators to help keep them warmer.
          >      > Down here on earth, you could also circulate air across the
          >     lenses but
          >      > that's pretty tough to do where there is no air.  The thought of
          >     some of
          >      > the after market windshield coatings like Rain-X crossed my mind but
          >      > they would probably interfere with or damage the lenses coating.
          >      >
          >      > Any ideas would be appreciated.
          >      >
          >      > Thanks
          >      >
          >      > Bruce - VE5BNC
          >      > Saskatoon Amateur Radio Club
          >      > http://ve5aa.dyndns.org <http://ve5aa.dyndns.org/>
          >      >
          >
          >     --
          >     Mike Manes    mrmanes@... <mailto:mrmanes@...>     Tel:
          >     303-979-4899
          >     "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
          >     A. Einstein
          >
          >     ------------------------------------
          >
          >     To start sending messages to members of this group,
          >     simply send email to
          >
          >     Ballooning@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ballooning@yahoogroups.com>
          >
          >     If you do not wish to belong to Ballooning, you may
          >     unsubscribe by sending an email to
          >
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          >     <mailto:Ballooning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
          >
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          >
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          >     <mailto:Ballooning-owner@yahoogroups.com>
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          >
          >     Moderator, Ballooning
          >
          >
          >     Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >        mailto:Ballooning-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
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          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > Check out my Blog:  http://charleslaughlin.blogspot.com/
          >

          --
          Mike Manes    mrmanes@...     Tel: 303-979-4899
          "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
          A. Einstein

          ------------------------------------

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          --
          Onwards and Upwards,
          Paul
        • Mike Manes
          If there s a reasonable balance between internal heat dissipation and thermal resistance to the slipstream, pre-heating shouldn t be necessary unless the
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 12, 2008
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            If there's a reasonable balance between internal heat dissipation and thermal
            resistance to the slipstream, pre-heating shouldn't be necessary unless the
            ambient at the launch site is worse than what we endured last month for
            EOSS-133 & -134 (-6C! - brrrr!). Keeping the sensitive payloads inside a
            toasty car until just before flight string prep may help as well - I do
            this with the RG-8 size coax so it won't bend like rebar during ground
            station setup.

            73 de Mike W5VSI

            L. Paul Verhage wrote:
            > I'm thinking about warming my capsules with an electric hair drier 30
            > minutes prior to launch, while the balloon is being filled. That should
            > get it toasty warm and I hope, keep it warmer during the entire mission.
            >
            > Paul "who doesn't have as much hair to dry as he use to" Verhage
            >
            > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 9:45 PM, Mike Manes <mrmanes@...
            > <mailto:mrmanes@...>> wrote:
            >
            > Be careful to get the handwarmers that carry their own oxidizer -
            > some of
            > 'em rely ambient O2 which there's not much of at 10 mbar!
            > 73 de Mike W5VSI
            >
            > Charles Laughlin wrote:
            > > There are of course those small chemical handwarmers that are
            > like large
            > > tea bags that produce heat inside one's gloves over a couple of
            > hours.
            > > Maybe one of them in the package. They take 30 minutes to really get
            > > going, so one could start them just at the beginning of the flight.
            > >
            > > Charlie Laughlin
            > >
            > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:23 AM, Mike Manes <mrmanes@...
            > <mailto:mrmanes@...>
            > > <mailto:mrmanes@... <mailto:mrmanes@...>>> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Bruce,
            > >
            > > We've had some luck using a window made from clear mylar
            > sheet over
            > > the view
            > > port, coated with windshield-grade RainX. A handy source of
            > clear
            > > mylar is
            > > an old inkjet transparency cleaned off using 70% isopropyl
            > alcohol. The
            > > window prevents forced convection from the slipstream and
            > keeps whatever
            > > warm air inside. But, if the inside air is moist, it can
            > frost up the
            > > interior surface of the window. We've used the little desiccant
            > > packs that
            > > come with some electronics to combat that issue.
            > >
            > > You're wise NOT to apply anything to the lens surface
            > directly, as that
            > > would risk damaging the anti-reflective coating.
            > >
            > > If can keep the lens temperature above the dew point using
            > copious
            > > insulation
            > > and waste heat from the camera and other heat generators in
            > the payload,
            > > that'll work, too. I heard a story that TV cameramen at the
            > winter
            > > Olympics
            > > a few years ago would connect a pair of 9V alkaline
            > transistor radio
            > > batteries
            > > face to face, effectively shorting them out, and duct taping
            > them to
            > > their
            > > lenses to keep 'em warm.
            > >
            > > One other scheme that's worked for us is to use a pair of crossed
            > > polarized
            > > plastic filter sheets over our up-looking camera port, originally
            > > intended to
            > > form a 1% transmissive filter to reduce image contrast so we
            > could
            > > see the
            > > shading on the balloon. 99% of the light striking this filter is
            > > absorbed,
            > > producing heat. That window also has a homebrew sunshade painted
            > > flat black
            > > to keep direct sunlight from making flares in the image.
            > >
            > > 73 de Mike W5VSI
            > > CTO EOSS
            > >
            > > Bruce Coates wrote:
            > > > Hi
            > > >
            > > > I'm searching for a solution to frost on our camera lenses
            > as high
            > > > altitude. We're using Polaroid iZone 300 cameras which have
            > > quite small
            > > > lenses, about 1/8 inch in diameter. At high altitudes
            > we're noticing
            > > > frost starting to form on the lenses. It appears as what
            > looks
            > > like a
            > > > hair in the lens. Over time, several "hairs" begin to
            > appear until
            > > > there are a dozen or more in the frame. As we descend,
            > the frost
            > > > disappears. Our cameras are mounted inside the payload
            > with pyramid
            > > > shaped viewing ports the Styrofoam walls for the lenses.
            > > >
            > > > Have other people encountered this? If so, did you find a
            > solution?
            > > > Some ideas I have include a "window" at the outside edge
            > of the
            > > camera
            > > > ports, perhaps with thin glass or Saran Wrap. This might
            > help to
            > > > isolate the cameras from the elements and help keep the lenses
            > > warmer.
            > > > It may also just attract more frost. It also has the
            > potential for
            > > > distorting the image and getting contaminated with dust before
            > > launch.
            > > > Another is to better insulate around the cameras and move heat
            > > > generating devices like voltage regulators to help keep
            > them warmer.
            > > > Down here on earth, you could also circulate air across the
            > > lenses but
            > > > that's pretty tough to do where there is no air. The
            > thought of
            > > some of
            > > > the after market windshield coatings like Rain-X crossed
            > my mind but
            > > > they would probably interfere with or damage the lenses
            > coating.
            > > >
            > > > Any ideas would be appreciated.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks
            > > >
            > > > Bruce - VE5BNC
            > > > Saskatoon Amateur Radio Club
            > > > http://ve5aa.dyndns.org <http://ve5aa.dyndns.org/>
            > <http://ve5aa.dyndns.org/>
            > > >
            > >
            > > --
            > > Mike Manes mrmanes@... <mailto:mrmanes@...>
            > <mailto:mrmanes@... <mailto:mrmanes@...>> Tel:
            > > 303-979-4899
            > > "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
            > > A. Einstein
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > To start sending messages to members of this group,
            > > simply send email to
            > >
            > > Ballooning@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:Ballooning@yahoogroups.com>
            > <mailto:Ballooning@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ballooning@yahoogroups.com>>
            > >
            > > If you do not wish to belong to Ballooning, you may
            > > unsubscribe by sending an email to
            > >
            > > Ballooning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:Ballooning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
            > > <mailto:Ballooning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:Ballooning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>>
            > >
            > > You may also visit the eGroups web site to modify your
            > > subscriptions:
            > >
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ballooning
            > >
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            > > following address:
            > >
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            > > <mailto:Ballooning-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:Ballooning-owner@yahoogroups.com>>
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            > >
            > > Regards,
            > >
            > > Moderator, Ballooning
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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            > >
            > > mailto:Ballooning-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
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            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --
            > > Check out my Blog: http://charleslaughlin.blogspot.com/
            > >
            >
            > --
            > Mike Manes mrmanes@... <mailto:mrmanes@...> Tel:
            > 303-979-4899
            > "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
            > A. Einstein
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            > mailto:GPSL-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:GPSL-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > Onwards and Upwards,
            > Paul
            >

            --
            Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
            "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
            A. Einstein
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