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Helium depletion

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  • Mike Manes
    There s a rather alarming piece on P.96 of the May 2008 QST describing the projected depletion of the National Helium Reserve by 2016. Helium is not a
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 21, 2008
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      There's a rather alarming piece on P.96 of the May 2008 QST describing
      the projected depletion of the National Helium Reserve by 2016. Helium
      is not a renewable resource, and other than that reserve, the only known
      "new" sources are natural gas wells which mostly vent He as a contaminant.

      Perhaps it's high time that ARHAB gets busy figuring out how to use
      hydrogen as a fill gas safely? I noticed that the price of our He
      T-bottles has soared from about $55 to nearly $80 in less than 2 years.
      Might be a swell topic for the GPSL 2008 conference.

      73 de Mike W5VSI, EOSS
      --
      Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
      "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
      A. Einstein
    • Joe Lynch
      Hi Mike, et al., Here is a link to a Science Daily article that more fully explains the helium crisis:
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 22, 2008
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        Hi Mike, et al.,
         
        Here is a link to a Science Daily article that more fully explains the helium crisis: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080102093943.htm.
         
        73,


        Joe Lynch, N6CL
        Editor, CQ VHF magazine
        VHF Editor, CQ magazine
      • Mark Conner
        If you re getting a T cylinder for $80, you re getting a pretty good deal. Full rate from Linweld is at least $100 - on my last trip there the guy cut it to
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 22, 2008
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          If you're getting a T cylinder for $80, you're getting a pretty good deal. Full rate from Linweld is at least $100 - on my last trip there the guy cut it to $98 for me. I paid $105 at one point last summer.

          Hydrogen is $40 per T cylinder at Linweld now, but requires 1-2 week leadtime to ensure they have stock. The Omaha store normally carries T cylinders of helium all the time.

          NWS has used hydrogen for many years now for their upper-air observation program. The Topeka office has an upper-air observing station - maybe one of their meteorologists or technicians would be interested in giving a presentation on their safety procedures at GPSL 2008.

          From reading their documentation online, they mainly ensure they're grounded for static protection and well-ventilated. Since hydrogen rises, any balloon rupture during the fill would quickly dissipate unlike other gases which might stay on the ground and pool somewhere. Because their UA observation building has a partially-enclosed space at the top, I believe their procedure if they have a balloon rupture inside is to open the doors and vacate the space for a period of time (30 minutes?).

          I would think that the risk, while not zero, is pretty low in most ARHAB operations. In Nebraska, we normally have a dampness problem early in the morning and static is pretty unlikely. We also fill outdoors most all of the time. I think if you use standard precautions about flames or other ignition sources, one can use hydrogen safely. To further minimize the risk, spectators should be kept some distance away.

          73 de Mark N9XTN

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Mike Manes <mrmanes@...>
          Date: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:35 am
          Subject: [GPSL] Helium depletion
          To: GPSL Balloon Reflector <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>, EOSS Launch Team Reflector <EOSS_LT@yahoogroups.com>
          Cc: Christopher J Koehler <Koehler@...>

          > Perhaps it's high time that ARHAB gets busy figuring out how to use
          > hydrogen as a fill gas safely? I noticed that the price of our He
          > T-bottles has soared from about $55 to nearly $80 in less than 2
          > years.Might be a swell topic for the GPSL 2008 conference.
          >
        • PAUL VERHAGE
          Tons of natural gas are transported daily without a problem. Along with grounded hoses, be sure to use a metal filling pipe, you don t want to insert PVC
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 22, 2008
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            Tons of natural gas are transported daily without a problem.
             
            Along with grounded hoses, be sure to use a metal filling pipe, you don't want to insert PVC plastic into a balloon neck and have dry hydrogen gas run through that.
             
            And definitely fill outside.
             
            Paul  
          • Joe Mayenschein
            Of course you all by now know my thoughts about Hydrogen, ( Near Space Sciences ) But you need to shop better or something. we get these size tanks for at
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 22, 2008
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              Of course you all by now know my thoughts about Hydrogen, ( Near Space
              Sciences )

              But you need to shop better or something. we get these size tanks for at
              the most 28 bucks, and depending on who is behind the desk that day as cheap
              as 14 bucks.

              if they ever told us 40 bucks we'd walk away saying keep it.

              Joe WB9SBD
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Mark Conner" <mconner1@...>
              To: <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:46 AM
              Subject: Re: [GPSL] Helium depletion


              > If you're getting a T cylinder for $80, you're getting a pretty good deal.
              > Full rate from Linweld is at least $100 - on my last trip there the guy
              > cut it to $98 for me. I paid $105 at one point last summer.
              >
              > Hydrogen is $40 per T cylinder at Linweld now, but requires 1-2 week
              > leadtime to ensure they have stock. The Omaha store normally carries T
              > cylinders of helium all the time.
              >
              > NWS has used hydrogen for many years now for their upper-air observation
              > program. The Topeka office has an upper-air observing station - maybe one
              > of their meteorologists or technicians would be interested in giving a
              > presentation on their safety procedures at GPSL 2008.
              >
              >>From reading their documentation online, they mainly ensure they're
              >>grounded for static protection and well-ventilated. Since hydrogen rises,
              >>any balloon rupture during the fill would quickly dissipate unlike other
              >>gases which might stay on the ground and pool somewhere. Because their UA
              >>observation building has a partially-enclosed space at the top, I believe
              >>their procedure if they have a balloon rupture inside is to open the doors
              >>and vacate the space for a period of time (30 minutes?).
              >
              > I would think that the risk, while not zero, is pretty low in most ARHAB
              > operations. In Nebraska, we normally have a dampness problem early in the
              > morning and static is pretty unlikely. We also fill outdoors most all of
              > the time. I think if you use standard precautions about flames or other
              > ignition sources, one can use hydrogen safely. To further minimize the
              > risk, spectators should be kept some distance away.
              >
              > 73 de Mark N9XTN
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Mike Manes <mrmanes@...>
              > Date: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:35 am
              > Subject: [GPSL] Helium depletion
              > To: GPSL Balloon Reflector <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>, EOSS Launch Team
              > Reflector <EOSS_LT@yahoogroups.com>
              > Cc: Christopher J Koehler <Koehler@...>
              >
              >> Perhaps it's high time that ARHAB gets busy figuring out how to use
              >> hydrogen as a fill gas safely? I noticed that the price of our He
              >> T-bottles has soared from about $55 to nearly $80 in less than 2
              >> years.Might be a swell topic for the GPSL 2008 conference.
              >>
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Joe Mayenschein
              Never ever have done any of the below, except for one thing, the filling adapter is 1 PVC. Oh well? NSS ... From: PAUL VERHAGE To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 22, 2008
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                Never ever have done any of the below,  except for one thing,  the filling adapter is 1' PVC.
                 
                Oh well?
                NSS
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:56 AM
                Subject: Re: [GPSL] Helium depletion

                Tons of natural gas are transported daily without a problem.
                 
                Along with grounded hoses, be sure to use a metal filling pipe, you don't want to insert PVC plastic into a balloon neck and have dry hydrogen gas run through that.
                 
                And definitely fill outside.
                 
                Paul  
              • Mike Manes
                Thanks, Joe. The QST article presented much of that same material. Kinda makes pix of the bursting balloon take on an whole new meaning, doesn t it? Anyhow,
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 22, 2008
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                  Thanks, Joe.

                  The QST article presented much of that same material. Kinda makes
                  pix of the bursting balloon take on an whole new meaning, doesn't
                  it?

                  Anyhow, all that's keeping many ARHAB groups, EOSS included, from
                  adopting H2 as a fill gas is the safety question, not to mention the
                  white-knuckle "Hindenberg" image. A lot of those concerns may be
                  allayed, however, as we make our snails-pace progress towards a
                  hydrogen economy. Sooner the better - Helium's getting pricey!

                  73 de Mike W5VSI

                  Joe Lynch wrote:
                  > Hi Mike, et al.,
                  >
                  > Here is a link to a Science Daily article that more fully explains the
                  > helium crisis:
                  > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080102093943.htm.
                  >
                  > 73,
                  >
                  >
                  > Joe Lynch, N6CL
                  > Editor, CQ VHF magazine
                  > VHF Editor, CQ magazine

                  --
                  Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                  "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                  A. Einstein
                • Mike Manes
                  How is H2 running thru a PVC fitting more risky than H2 running thru a latex neck? And how does one ground a hose? 73 de Mike W5VSI ... -- Mike Manes
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 22, 2008
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                    How is H2 running thru a PVC fitting more risky than H2 running thru
                    a latex neck?

                    And how does one ground a hose?

                    73 de Mike W5VSI

                    PAUL VERHAGE wrote:
                    > Tons of natural gas are transported daily without a problem.
                    >
                    > Along with grounded hoses, be sure to use a metal filling pipe, you
                    > don't want to insert PVC plastic into a balloon neck and have dry
                    > hydrogen gas run through that.
                    >
                    > And definitely fill outside.
                    >
                    > Paul
                    >

                    --
                    Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                    A. Einstein
                  • PAUL VERHAGE
                    The hose has a metal mesh in it from what I ve seen at the NWS. Perhaps it s time I visit the local welding shop. My impression (right or wrong) is that a
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 23, 2008
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                      The hose has a metal mesh in it from what I've seen at the NWS.  Perhaps it's time I visit the local welding shop.
                       
                      My impression (right or wrong) is that a thick PVC pipe will generate more static from a dry gas flowing through it than a latex balloon.  If that's wrong, then PVC should be fine.  I'll have to look at some old pictures, but I believe the NWS uses a metal filling tube.
                       
                      Paul 

                      >>> Mike Manes <mrmanes@...> 4/22/2008 8:54 PM >>>
                      How is H2 running thru a PVC fitting more risky than H2 running thru
                      a latex neck?

                      And how does one ground a hose?

                      73 de Mike W5VSI

                      PAUL VERHAGE wrote:
                      > Tons of natural gas are transported daily without a problem.

                      > Along with grounded hoses, be sure to use a metal filling pipe, you
                      > don't want to insert PVC plastic into a balloon neck and have dry
                      > hydrogen gas run through that.

                      > And definitely fill outside.

                      > Paul 
                      >

                      --
                      Mike Manes    mrmanes@...     Tel: 303-979-4899
                      "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                      A. Einstein

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                    • Fraser, Don
                      Are there additional rules/restrictions with transporting hydrogen over transporting helium? Don Fraser HP SWD R&D, Colorado Lab Desk Phone: 719.548.3272 Cell
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 23, 2008
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                        Are there additional rules/restrictions with transporting hydrogen over transporting helium?

                        Don Fraser
                        HP SWD R&D, Colorado Lab
                        Desk Phone: 719.548.3272
                        Cell Phone: 719.930.7761

                         


                        From: GPSL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of w0jrt
                        Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:36 AM
                        To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [GPSL] Re: Helium depletion

                        Many amateur radio balloon groups have been safely using hydrogen (and
                        saving money) for quite some time. One group that I fly with uses
                        hydrogen exclusively. When dealing with high pressure tanks one needs
                        to be safe regardless of the type of gas contained in it.

                        -Jerome, W0JRT

                        --- In GPSL@yahoogroups. com, Mike Manes <mrmanes@... > wrote:

                        > Perhaps it's high time that ARHAB gets
                        busy figuring out how to use
                        > hydrogen as a fill gas safely? I noticed
                        that the price of our He

                      • Hank
                        ... Jerome, Which one is that? I think we ll want to ask them just how they do it. Hank
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 23, 2008
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                          > One group that I fly with uses hydrogen exclusively.

                          Jerome,

                          Which one is that? I think we'll want to ask them just
                          how they do it.

                          Hank
                        • PAUL VERHAGE
                          My understanding is that if you get in a car wreck, you don t get injured. You die. ;) Paul ... Are there additional rules/restrictions with transporting
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 23, 2008
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                            My understanding is that if you get in a car wreck, you don't get injured.  You die.
                            ;)
                             
                            Paul

                            >>> "Fraser, Don" <don.fraser@...> 4/23/2008 11:55 AM >>>
                            Are there additional rules/restrictions with transporting hydrogen over transporting helium?

                            Don Fraser
                            HP SWD R&D, Colorado Lab
                            Desk Phone: 719.548.3272
                            Cell Phone: 719.930.7761

                             


                            From: GPSL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of w0jrt
                            Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:36 AM
                            To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [GPSL] Re: Helium depletion

                            Many amateur radio balloon groups have been safely using hydrogen (and
                            saving money) for quite some time. One group that I fly with uses
                            hydrogen exclusively. When dealing with high pressure tanks one needs
                            to be safe regardless of the type of gas contained in it.

                            -Jerome, W0JRT

                            --- In GPSL@yahoogroups. com, Mike Manes <mrmanes@... > wrote:
                            > Perhaps it's high time that ARHAB gets busy figuring out how to use
                            > hydrogen as a fill gas safely? I noticed that the price of our He

                          • Mark Conner
                            I would expect that a wreck bad enough to breach a pressurized steel cylinder would be bad enough to breach an unpressurized bone cranium. :-P My biggest
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 23, 2008
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                              I would expect that a wreck bad enough to breach a pressurized steel cylinder would be bad enough to breach an unpressurized bone cranium.  :-P

                              My biggest concern is the cylinder beating the **** out of me well before enough force is involved to snap the valve off.

                              73 de Mark N9XTN

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: PAUL VERHAGE <paul.verhage@...>
                              Date: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:23 pm
                              Subject: RE: [GPSL] Re: Helium depletion
                              To: "GPSL@yahoogroups.com" <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>

                              > My understanding is that if you get in a car wreck, you don't get
                              > injured.  You die.
                              > ;)
                              >

                            • Joe
                              this august will be our 20th year, and 45 flights, all H2 and never ben anything else. joe NSS
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                this august will be our 20th year, and 45 flights, all  H2 and never ben anything else.

                                joe NSS

                                w0jrt wrote:
                                Many amateur radio balloon groups have been safely using hydrogen (and
                                saving money) for quite some time.  One group that I fly with uses
                                hydrogen exclusively.  When dealing with high pressure tanks one needs
                                to be safe regardless of the type of gas contained in it.
                                
                                -Jerome, W0JRT
                                
                                --- In GPSL@yahoogroups.com, Mike Manes <mrmanes@...> wrote:
                                  
                                Perhaps it's high time that ARHAB gets busy figuring out how to use
                                hydrogen as a fill gas safely?  I noticed that the price of our He
                                    
                                
                                
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                              • Joe
                                Not here in wisconsin. We ve had the tanks in everything from pickups, to trunks, to the back seat of my car. joe NSS
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                  Not here in wisconsin.

                                  We've had the tanks in everything from pickups, to trunks, to the back seat of my car.
                                  joe NSS

                                  Fraser, Don wrote:
                                  Are there additional rules/restrictions with transporting hydrogen over transporting helium?

                                  Don Fraser
                                  HP SWD R&D, Colorado Lab
                                  Desk Phone: 719.548.3272
                                  Cell Phone: 719.930.7761

                                   


                                  From: GPSL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of w0jrt
                                  Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:36 AM
                                  To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [GPSL] Re: Helium depletion

                                  Many amateur radio balloon groups have been safely using hydrogen (and
                                  saving money) for quite some time. One group that I fly with uses
                                  hydrogen exclusively. When dealing with high pressure tanks one needs
                                  to be safe regardless of the type of gas contained in it.

                                  -Jerome, W0JRT

                                  --- In GPSL@yahoogroups. com, Mike Manes <mrmanes@... > wrote:
                                  > Perhaps it's high time that ARHAB gets busy figuring out how to use
                                  > hydrogen as a fill gas safely? I noticed that the price of our He

                                • Joe
                                  exactly, the missile effect will be far worse than the gas leaking out.
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                    exactly,  the missile effect will be far worse than the gas leaking out.


                                    Mark Conner wrote:

                                    I would expect that a wreck bad enough to breach a pressurized steel cylinder would be bad enough to breach an unpressurized bone cranium.  :-P

                                    My biggest concern is the cylinder beating the **** out of me well before enough force is involved to snap the valve off.

                                    73 de Mark N9XTN

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: PAUL VERHAGE <paul.verhage@...>
                                    Date: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:23 pm
                                    Subject: RE: [GPSL] Re: Helium depletion
                                    To: "GPSL@yahoogroups.com" <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>

                                    > My understanding is that if you get in a car wreck, you don't get
                                    > injured.  You die.
                                    > ;)
                                    >

                                  • dlkaiser@kc.rr.com
                                    Mike - I agree it would be an awesome topic for GPSL in light of what has been happening with the prices. Would you be willing to lead a discussion on it? We
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                      Mike - I agree it would be an awesome topic for GPSL in light of what
                                      has been happening with the prices. Would you be willing to lead a
                                      discussion on it?

                                      We have been discussing tests with hydrogen a lot at our Near Space
                                      Ventures monthly meetings and it would be good to share everyones
                                      information and viewpoints on the topic.

                                      It seems there have been some tests done that indicate that it is a
                                      much safer process than previously thought.

                                      Thanks for bringing it up. I would love to hear the rest of the
                                      group's opinion on the validity of this discussion at GPSL 2008.

                                      73's
                                      Deb Kaiser, W0DLK
                                      Near Space Ventures
                                    • Joe
                                      As I have been saying for almost 20 years. it is in no way as dangerous as it s made out to be. many times after a flight when we are all done with the flight
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                        As I have been saying for almost 20 years.

                                        it is in no way as dangerous as it's made out to be.

                                        many times after a flight when we are all done with the flight and are
                                        sttting around having pizza and beers, probably 505 of the time we have
                                        taken the remainder of the tank and filled trash bags, tie a string
                                        that has been soaked in charcoal lighter fulel or even better diesekl
                                        fuel, that is about 20 feet long or so,

                                        light it and let it go, and make maybe a 1/2 dozen "Himdenburgs"

                                        It does NOT,, read that word NOT explode in any way, 99% of the time
                                        you dont even hear anything, you just see the trash bag burn. thats all.

                                        In all honesty the first time we did it we all were extremely let dow
                                        as to the boringness of the massive explosion we wre waiting for.

                                        Joe NSS

                                        dlkaiser@... wrote:

                                        >Mike - I agree it would be an awesome topic for GPSL in light of what
                                        >has been happening with the prices. Would you be willing to lead a
                                        >discussion on it?
                                        >
                                        >We have been discussing tests with hydrogen a lot at our Near Space
                                        >Ventures monthly meetings and it would be good to share everyones
                                        >information and viewpoints on the topic.
                                        >
                                        >It seems there have been some tests done that indicate that it is a
                                        >much safer process than previously thought.
                                        >
                                        >Thanks for bringing it up. I would love to hear the rest of the
                                        >group's opinion on the validity of this discussion at GPSL 2008.
                                        >
                                        >73's
                                        >Deb Kaiser, W0DLK
                                        >Near Space Ventures
                                        >
                                        >------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Mike Manes
                                        Ach du Leiber! Der Hindenberg Effekt! Actually, hydrogen burns a lot more safely than carbon-based fuels in that there s very little IR radiation. In fact,
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                          Ach du Leiber! Der Hindenberg Effekt!

                                          Actually, hydrogen burns a lot more safely than carbon-based fuels in
                                          that there's very little IR radiation. In fact, the flame is nearly
                                          invisible - but it's VERY hot! Water, the combustion byproduct, is
                                          not anywhere close to a black body radiator. The blazing flames one
                                          sees in the movie of the Hindenberg disaster came not from the hydrogen
                                          but from the rubber gas bags and fabric skin covering the dirigible's
                                          framework.

                                          Yes, H2 is certainly combustible (duh!), and in the presence of
                                          atmospheric oxygen, an otherwise innocuous static discharge spark can
                                          ignite the mixture. Anyone close to the balloon will likely be burned
                                          by IR radiation from the burning latex, but the hydrogen flame will
                                          ascend rather than dispersing laterally. So it may be a good idea for
                                          the balloonmeister and any balloon handlers during a windy fill to don
                                          protective garb. Of course, all means available to avoid ignition should
                                          also be in place, including means to prevent static accumulation.

                                          I'm no expert on this, but these steps appear to be reasonable first
                                          steps. Those who know the ropes more thoroughly and who are experienced
                                          with hydrogen balloon filling are certainly invited to chime in.

                                          73 de Mike W5VSI

                                          PAUL VERHAGE wrote:
                                          > My understanding is that if you get in a car wreck, you don't get
                                          > injured. You die.
                                          > ;)
                                          >
                                          > Paul
                                          >
                                          > >>> "Fraser, Don" <don.fraser@...> 4/23/2008 11:55 AM >>>
                                          > Are there additional rules/restrictions with transporting hydrogen over
                                          > transporting helium?
                                          >
                                          > Don Fraser
                                          > HP SWD R&D, Colorado Lab
                                          > Desk Phone: 719.548.3272
                                          > Cell Phone: 719.930.7761
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                          > *From:* GPSL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                                          > *w0jrt
                                          > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:36 AM
                                          > *To:* GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                                          > *Subject:* [GPSL] Re: Helium depletion
                                          >
                                          > Many amateur radio balloon groups have been safely using hydrogen (and
                                          > saving money) for quite some time. One group that I fly with uses
                                          > hydrogen exclusively. When dealing with high pressure tanks one needs
                                          > to be safe regardless of the type of gas contained in it.
                                          >
                                          > -Jerome, W0JRT
                                          >
                                          > --- In GPSL@yahoogroups.com <mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com>, Mike Manes
                                          > <mrmanes@...> wrote:
                                          > > Perhaps it's high time that ARHAB gets busy figuring out how to use
                                          > > hydrogen as a fill gas safely? I noticed that the price of our He
                                          >

                                          --
                                          Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                                          "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                                          A. Einstein
                                        • Mike Manes
                                          Yeah, even a He bottle with 2Kpsi inside can become a formidable projectile. I saw a CO2 fire bottle on the flight line at VT-26 in Beeville TX drive right
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                            Yeah, even a He bottle with >2Kpsi inside can become a formidable
                                            projectile. I saw a CO2 fire bottle on the flight line at VT-26 in
                                            Beeville TX drive right thru a cinderblock wall at the Ops office
                                            over 100 ft away.
                                            73 de Mike W5VSI

                                            Mark Conner wrote:
                                            > I would expect that a wreck bad enough to breach a pressurized steel
                                            > cylinder would be bad enough to breach an unpressurized bone cranium. :-P
                                            >
                                            > My biggest concern is the cylinder beating the **** out of me well
                                            > before enough force is involved to snap the valve off.
                                            >
                                            > 73 de Mark N9XTN
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: PAUL VERHAGE <paul.verhage@...>
                                            > Date: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:23 pm
                                            > Subject: RE: [GPSL] Re: Helium depletion
                                            > To: "GPSL@yahoogroups.com" <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
                                            >
                                            > > My understanding is that if you get in a car wreck, you don't get
                                            > > injured. You die.
                                            > > ;)
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >

                                            --
                                            Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                                            "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                                            A. Einstein
                                          • wb8elk@aol.com
                                            I saw the results of a gas cylinder in the chemistry lab that had fallen over and had the valve knocked off...it went through one cinder block wall and
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                              I saw the results of a gas cylinder in the chemistry lab that had fallen over and had the valve knocked off...it went through one cinder block wall and halfway through another one.  A friend in Berkeley, CA would sometimes go down to the shipyards when he was in high school and put a gas cylinder he'd find after the ship welders had left for the day and put it in SF bay...he'd whack the valve off with a sledge hammer and the thing would streak across the bay like a torpedo...which it would've become had it hit any ships.
                                               
                                              The moral is to always strap down your tank when the cap is off or lie it on the ground while using it.
                                               
                                              As to hydrogen ignition....here's a good website showing the results of their attempts to successfully ignite a hydrogen weather balloon of about 4 feet in diameter....with some nice photos of the results.
                                               
                                               
                                              - Bill WB8ELK
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               




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                                            • Joe
                                              Hi Bill, And all This is EXACTLY what our Hindenburg Trash Bag after flight antics look like. a small ball of orange flame, but absolutely NO explosion! It
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Apr 24, 2008
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                                                Hi Bill, And all

                                                This is EXACTLY  what our Hindenburg Trash Bag after flight antics look like. a small  ball of orange flame, but absolutely NO explosion!  It rarely exceeds the size of the envelope.  Just as seen in those photos.

                                                Joe & NSS

                                                wb8elk@... wrote:
                                                I saw the results of a gas cylinder in the chemistry lab that had fallen over and had the valve knocked off...it went through one cinder block wall and halfway through another one.  A friend in Berkeley, CA would sometimes go down to the shipyards when he was in high school and put a gas cylinder he'd find after the ship welders had left for the day and put it in SF bay...he'd whack the valve off with a sledge hammer and the thing would streak across the bay like a torpedo...which it would've become had it hit any ships.
                                                 
                                                The moral is to always strap down your tank when the cap is off or lie it on the ground while using it.
                                                 
                                                As to hydrogen ignition....here's a good website showing the results of their attempts to successfully ignite a hydrogen weather balloon of about 4 feet in diameter....with some nice photos of the results.
                                                 
                                                 
                                                - Bill WB8ELK
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 




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                                              • Joe
                                                It seems soo funny after in 5 months it will be 20 years of preaching these facts, to absolutely deaf ears and EVERYONE constantly preaching the Hindenburg
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Apr 24, 2008
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                                                  It seems soo  funny after in 5 months it will be 20 years of preaching these facts, to  absolutely deaf ears and EVERYONE constantly preaching the "Hindenburg" effect.  It got to the point, that I just gave up, and thought to myself,  "Whatever dudes,  go ahead and spend your 80+ bucks on a tank and I'll  just go down the road with my 14 buck tank".

                                                  Last comment on the Hindenburg thing anyway,  Hello it burned, it did not explode. and 99% of the BURN  was NOT the hydrogen but the containment bags, and Mostly the totally stupid covering.  Quote,

                                                  What we now know.

                                                  As we all know the wide spread belief/myth is that hydrogen is to blame for the 37 dead, but there is new evidence to discredit that theory. A NASA scientist at Cape Canaveral has discovered the real cause. "Neither the hydrogen in the hull nor a bomb was to blame, but a special fabric for the outer skin that, when ignited, burns like dry leaves."

                                                  Bain’s suspicions of the Zeppelin’s fabric covering were raised when he learned that a cellulose nitrate (gun powder) dope with powdered aluminum (fuel) was used on the Hindenburg. He was able to obtain a 60 year old piece of the fabric used to test his hypothesis. Furthermore, a hydrogen flame is almost invisible in day light. We know from many eye witness accounts as well as actual photographs, that the flames were red and orange. This supports his theory that hydrogen was not the source of the flames.

                                                  He was able to prove his theory into fact, and the plaque in the Kennedy Space Center has been changed reading a more accurate portrayal of the history of the Hindenburg. Scientists now agree that the outer covering was ignited by static electricity. It would appear that the Germans agree with them in their claim. German electrical engineer, Otto Beyersdorff, on 28 June 1937 wrote “The actual cause of the fire was the extreme easy flammability of the covering material brought about by discharges of an electrostatic nature.” Furthermore in California in 1935, a helium (non combustible gas) filled airship went up in flames as well.

                                                  Interesting huh?

                                                  Joe & NSS



                                                  w0jrt wrote:
                                                  Before we ever attempted to use H2 as our lifting gas we did similar
                                                  experiments as Joe and his group, and I can confirm everything he's
                                                  said through our independent experiments.  It's very much like what
                                                  you see on that web page that someone else posted.  There were a few
                                                  people in our group that were very apprehensive about it but after
                                                  seeing the effects, and in particular seeing how difficult it was to
                                                  actually get any kind of ignition, that apprehension was gone.
                                                  
                                                  In our experiments we filled a variety of trash bags and small
                                                  balloons with H2 and in a few cases a mixture of H2 and air, and
                                                  attempting to light it through various means -- most often by remote
                                                  ignition of an E-match either taped to the exterior of the envelope or
                                                  even contained within the envelope.  The thing is, you just don't have
                                                  the right mixture of fuel and oxidizer to cause an explosion.  You
                                                  might get a bit of a pop if you mix in some O2 or (in our experiment)
                                                  air.  But typically, if we got it to ignite at all (some time our
                                                  E-match would just burn a small hole in the envelope and the gas would
                                                  escape), the balloon envelope would burn followed by the ball of H2
                                                  which would soon shrink to nothing.
                                                  
                                                  Like Joe said, it's really a bit disappointing, especially for the
                                                  closet pyros that may be lurking in the group.
                                                  
                                                  -Jerome, W0JRT
                                                  
                                                  --- In GPSL@yahoogroups.com, Joe <nss@...> wrote:
                                                    
                                                  As I have been saying for almost 20 years.
                                                  
                                                  it is in no way as dangerous as it's made out to be.
                                                  
                                                  ...
                                                  
                                                  It does NOT,,  read that word  NOT explode in any way,  99% of the time 
                                                  you dont even hear anything,  you just see the trash bag burn. 
                                                      
                                                  thats all.
                                                    
                                                  In all  honesty the first time we did it we all  were extremely let dow 
                                                  as to the boringness of the massive explosion we wre waiting for.
                                                  
                                                  Joe NSS
                                                      
                                                  
                                                  
                                                  ------------------------------------
                                                  
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                                                • Mark Garrett
                                                  Joe, were you in Phoenix last week? Mark, KA9SZX ... From: Joe To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:11:26 PM Subject: Re:
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Apr 24, 2008
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                                                    Joe, were you in Phoenix last week?

                                                     

                                                    Mark, KA9SZX



                                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                                    From: Joe <nss@...>
                                                    To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:11:26 PM
                                                    Subject: Re: [GPSL] Re:Helium depletion

                                                    As I have been saying for almost 20 years.

                                                    it is in no way as dangerous as it's made out to be.

                                                    many times after a flight when we are all done with the flight and are
                                                    sttting around having pizza and beers, probably 505 of the time we have
                                                    taken the remainder of the tank and filled trash bags, tie a string
                                                    that has been soaked in charcoal lighter fulel or even better diesekl
                                                    fuel, that is about 20 feet long or so,

                                                    light it and let it go, and make maybe a 1/2 dozen "Himdenburgs"

                                                    It does NOT,, read that word NOT explode in any way, 99% of the time
                                                    you dont even hear anything, you just see the trash bag burn. thats all.

                                                    In all honesty the first time we did it we all were extremely let dow
                                                    as to the boringness of the massive explosion we wre waiting for.

                                                    Joe NSS

                                                    dlkaiser@kc. rr.com wrote:

                                                    >Mike - I agree it would be an awesome topic for GPSL in light of what
                                                    >has been happening with the prices. Would you be willing to lead a
                                                    >discussion on it?
                                                    >
                                                    >We have been discussing tests with hydrogen a lot at our Near Space
                                                    >Ventures monthly meetings and it would be good to share everyones
                                                    >information and viewpoints on the topic.
                                                    >
                                                    >It seems there have been some tests done that indicate that it is a
                                                    >much safer process than previously thought.
                                                    >
                                                    >Thanks for bringing it up. I would love to hear the rest of the
                                                    >group's opinion on the validity of this discussion at GPSL 2008.
                                                    >
                                                    >73's
                                                    >Deb Kaiser, W0DLK
                                                    >Near Space Ventures
                                                    >
                                                    >----------- --------- --------- -------
                                                    >
                                                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >




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                                                  • Joe
                                                    More thoughts, and or comments, (sorry guys) just adding our experiences. comments below,, ... I don t know who this group is, but as far as I know it s not
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Apr 24, 2008
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                                                      More thoughts, and or comments,  (sorry guys)  just adding our experiences.  comments below,,

                                                      w0jrt wrote:
                                                      --- In GPSL@yahoogroups.com, "Hank" <n1ltv@...> wrote:
                                                        
                                                      One group that I fly with uses hydrogen exclusively.  
                                                            
                                                      Which one is that?   I think we'll want to ask them just
                                                      how they do it. 
                                                      
                                                      Hank
                                                          
                                                      It's one of those low-profile just-for-fun groups that doesn't have a
                                                      web site and normally doesn't publicize its flights. 
                                                      I don't know who this group is, but as far as I know it's not us, even though the description fits fairly well.
                                                       I'll try to
                                                      summarize our system, though.  It's not that much different than using
                                                      Helium.  We use a metal braided hose in contact with the ground so
                                                      everything (tank, regulator, hose, etc.) is at the same potential,
                                                      discharge any static electricity before filling,
                                                      Even if you do have all  these components electrically connected and grounded, via the grounded tank,  wired hose etc.  what do you do about the balloon itself?  this is where all  the gas is yes? yet you can't ground a latex or PE balloon,,  BOTH are excellent insulators.  so this grounding of everything what are we thinking we are accomplishing, where the main part we are worried about exploding is not actually grounded.
                                                       and launch in a clean
                                                      area away from other people, buildings, and vehicles.
                                                      99.9% of our balloon fillings are done indoors in closed draft free areas.
                                                        
                                                      We have actually gone the opposite direction. for reasons that I will  explain shortly.  And the reasons explained herein.

                                                      Our filling system is totally floating (electrically)  from ground.  NOTHING  is grounded. and we do this on purpose.
                                                      Why,  as this seems to go totally in the wrong direction of common thought.  Part of our thinking actually came from two places.

                                                      1-  Was from a local radio station here. There is a local FM broadcast station here, and, they were every year having horrible problems with lightning.
                                                      what is lightning?  It's just a strong bit of electricity right?,  That wants to equalize,  between the two potentials,  and it looks for the path of least resistance right?  We all know this.  This station over the years has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on state of the art lightning protection equipment. As well as countless dollars replacing damaged equipment.  No matter what they did they kept getting nailed. They even got to the point where they had actually more invested in the stations lightning protection system  than the transmitter itself! and every year they'd get nailed. till oh,,  probably ,  geez  i can't remember when,  but after they got nailed by a real massive strike. they  were  at the point of shutting the station down, and give up.

                                                      One rouge engineer (old retired guy) asked them if they were willing to try one radical solution. For one last hurrah so to speak, and in the industry a extreme radical thought that goes AGAINST  the whole community and standards practice.  The owners said  what's the idea, and this one old guy that was NOT even a part of the station at all,  ( the owner actually met him at a local bar!) told him some basic static electrical theory,  and of course this did not please the owner he's heard this stuff from all of the "Professionals" already a hundred times. But then this old fart told him,  what's happening,  the spark is trying to find the path of least resistance  to equalize the voltages right?  he said yeah  (again heard this a thousand times)  So  the old guy says  take the path of least resistance away.  HUH?  He told him  isolate EVERYTHING!  totally float EVERYTHING  from ground.  have nothing grounded in ANY way, EVERYTHING no matter how small, but totally float everything! He explained in doing this the "Path of least resistance" is no longer there and the lightning will look for a better path to ground. since this path is now totally invisible to the lightning,  It just plain does not exist.  In a strange way it made sense.  They have tried every other thing, and they spent several months setting up the station to "Float"  Guess what the station is still on the air, and hasn't had a single hit in over ten years now. Where before, they were getting hit at least once a month. if not more.

                                                      2-  Where i work,  they had a huge static electricity problem.  We Make large polystyrene sheets for the advertising industry.
                                                      Polystyrene in itself is a pretty good insulator,  but when you slide one 4 foot by 8 foot sheet from the machine producing the sheets onto the stack, it generates a incredible amount of static.  yes  the current is like zero,  but we have measured the static potential at times into the mega volt ranges.  I have seen lightning bolts come from a stack jump to a person walking by over 4 feet away, and just lay them out on the floor!

                                                      This company also tried every grounding thought and static control company there is.  but with little success.  Yes it did help  don't get me wrong,  but the problem was still  there.  for a major part of the problem,  how do you ground a insulator?  Poly styrene is a pretty good insulator.

                                                      POLYSTYRENE: A  insulator with superb dielectric properties. Polystyrene capacitors exhibit little dielectric adsorption and virtually no leakage. Liquid polystyrene or Q-dope is a low-loss coil dope used to secure windings and other components in RF circuits.

                                                      Till  again they learned what happened at that radio station, and decided to try to "Float"  the whole area, so the static buildup can not find a way to ground.  Guess what it worked! there was never a spark to be seen or felt from any of the workers from that day on.

                                                      So here at NSS when we set up our inflation area, we isolate the whole system,

                                                      first down is a old heavy blanket, just to keep any potentially pointy thing from happening,  then we lay a plastic tarp on the blanket, on this is laid a thin PE sheet similar to a drop cloth,
                                                      then the tank is laid on this along with it's connected regulator,. the hose from the regulator is a 1/4" id, latex tube, that connects to a 1.25" od PVC coupler, which the balloon is attached with a stainless steel hose clamp.

                                                      so the whole system is insulated from the ground many ways.  45 official flights, and probably as many again non official, using this method, in all  sorts of weather  from 100 deg with 100% humidity,  wi  cold 20 below and 5% humidity days, NO PROBLEMS and no static potential whatsoever,  we have tested it with the e static potential equipment from work.  think,,  static wants to go to ground,  don't give it a route, and you have no path,    no path,, NO SPARK> simple

                                                      Joe & NSS
                                                      We also have a very small fill tube with a check valve and
                                                      quick-connect adapter that is attached to the balloon.  This means
                                                      once the envelope is filled you attach the package (using the same
                                                      type of quick-connect used by the fill mechanism) and release.  It
                                                      makes for a very quick, smooth, and organized launch.  There's none of
                                                       that typical fold this over, twist this, tie that off,
                                                      oops-someone-go-get-the-tape, chaos that you see at some launches.  So
                                                      far the only down side is that if we have to cut away the balloon we
                                                      will lose the check valve and quick-connect adapter.  So far we
                                                      haven't had to do that.
                                                      
                                                      For the record, I misspoke when I said hydrogen was used "exclusively"
                                                      -- at past GPSL's we've used helium provided by the hosts to avoid
                                                      ruffling feathers of those fearful of hydrogen.
                                                      
                                                      -Jerome, W0JRT
                                                      
                                                      
                                                      ------------------------------------
                                                      
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                                                    • Mike Manes
                                                      Thanks Mike! Seven T-bottles of He just about does the job for a two-fer 3000 gm launch, and about all that we can fit in a large pickup. For smaller
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Apr 25, 2008
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                                                        Thanks Mike!

                                                        Seven T-bottles of He just about does the job for a two-fer 3000 gm
                                                        launch, and about all that we can fit in a large pickup. For smaller
                                                        vehicles, we borrow a trailer to carry the gas. Since H2 yields a
                                                        little more lift, then 7 T's should give us a bit more margin.

                                                        BTW, Don WA9WWS has volunteered to gather all the pertinent pointers
                                                        related to EOSS's switching over to H2, so be sure to keep him in the
                                                        loop if you have any further excellent input such as this. He's cc'ed
                                                        above.

                                                        Hope you've been able to get out on a few flights there in 4-land -
                                                        there are gobs of new groups coming aboard - consuming what little
                                                        He is left :=}.

                                                        And EOSS-127 ended up with a much smaller student payload weight than
                                                        we'd anticipated - only 12.3 lb vs. the 20 lb typical for that type of
                                                        flight. So it just took a bit more than 2 T's to get a good fill.

                                                        73 de Mike W5VSI

                                                        kj0r@... wrote:
                                                        > Hi Mike and all,
                                                        >
                                                        > Placcarding: DoT says that 1000lb of gas plus cylinder combination
                                                        > weight requires placcarding. When the load is flammable then it musy be
                                                        > placcarded for it. I believe one flam. placcard is all that is needed.
                                                        > The tare weight for a size 300 (T) cylinder is approximately 140 pounds.
                                                        > You are over with eight and cutting it close with seven.
                                                        >
                                                        > Congratulations ! 103k+ ! Nebraska again.
                                                        >
                                                        > Mike
                                                        > kj0r
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                        > From: Mike Manes <mrmanes@...>
                                                        >
                                                        > > Hi Don,
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Hey, great! Thanks for taking that on.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Now, I'm still waffling about making GPSL this year, what with the
                                                        > > price of gas and the $100/nite accommodations. And I've got a
                                                        > fistful
                                                        > > of work transitioning from the now-extinct surplus LiSO2 cells
                                                        > for all
                                                        > > our payloads to Li-ion rechargeables. So far, only the crossband has
                                                        > > been done.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Re Hazmat placarding, I think those may be Federal DoT rules
                                                        > rather than
                                                        > > Colorado regs. So might look at www.dot.gov (?). And Mike Herod
                                                        > KJ0R,
                                                        > > who works for AirGas, may also be a good resource; check the MSDS
                                                        > page.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > 73 de Mike W5VSI
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Fraser, Don wrote:
                                                        > > > Sure, and since it looks like I might make GPSL this year , I
                                                        > might even offer
                                                        > > to help present.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Don Fraser
                                                        > > > HP SWD R&D, Colorado Lab
                                                        > > > Desk Phone: 719.548.3272
                                                        > > > Cell Phone: 719.930.7761
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                        > > > From: Mike Manes [mailto:mrmanes@...]
                                                        > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:54 PM
                                                        > > > To: Fraser, Don
                                                        > > > Subject: Re: [GPSL] Re: Helium depletion
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Hi Don,
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > I don't have a clue. This is why I suggested that we get
                                                        > cracking on learning
                                                        > > all the in's and out's of using H2 for a fill gas. Perhaps
                                                        > www.airgas.com has
                                                        > > some guidance?
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Would you care to step up to the plate and grub up some of
                                                        > those answers?
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > 73 de Mike W5VSI
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Fraser, Don wrote:
                                                        > > >> hi Mike;
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >> In Colorado do we have to p lacard the H2 transport vehicle as
                                                        > carrying
                                                        > > >> H2? Or is there a minimum amount that does not require the
                                                        > placards?
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >> Also I seem to recall seeing some research that says the
                                                        > Hindenburg
                                                        > > >> was accidentally covered in low grade thermite -- a
                                                        > combination of
                                                        > > >> paint on the aluminum skin or something like that. So once the
                                                        > fire
                                                        > > >> started it burned out and fast..
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >> I don't think we want to cover our latex balloons.. later.
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >> Don Fraser
                                                        > > >> HP SWD R&D, Colorado Lab
                                                        > > >> Desk Phone: 719.548.3272
                                                        > > >> Cell Phone: 719.930.7761
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                        > > >> --
                                                        > > >> *From:* GPSL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com] *On
                                                        > B ehalf
                                                        > > >> Of *Mike Manes
                                                        > > >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:30 PM
                                                        > > >> *To:* GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > > >> *Subject:* Re: [GPSL] Re: Helium depletion
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >> Ach du Leiber! Der Hindenberg Effekt!
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >> Actually, hydrogen burns a lot more safely than carbon-based
                                                        > fuels in
                                                        > > >> that there's very little IR radiation. In fact, the flame is
                                                        > nearly
                                                        > > >> invisible - but it's VERY hot! Water, the combustion
                                                        > byproduct, is not
                                                        > > >> anywhere close to a black body radiator. The blazing flames
                                                        > one sees
                                                        > > >> in the movie of the Hindenberg disaster came not from the
                                                        > hydrogen but
                                                        > > >> from the rubber gas bags and fabric skin covering the dirigible's
                                                        > > >> framework.
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >> Yes, H2 is certainly combustible (duh!), and in the presence of
                                                        > > >> atmospheric oxygen, an otherw ise innocuous static discharge
                                                        > spark can
                                                        > > >> ignite the mixture. Anyone close to the balloon will likely be
                                                        > burned
                                                        > > >> by IR radiation from the burning latex, but the hydrogen flame
                                                        > will
                                                        > > >> ascend rather than dispersing laterally. So it may be a good
                                                        > idea for
                                                        > > >> the balloonmeister and any balloon handlers during a windy
                                                        > fill to don
                                                        > > >> protective garb. Of course, all means available to avoid ignition
                                                        > > >> should also be in place, including means to prevent static
                                                        > accumulation.
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >> I'm no expert on this, but these steps appear to be reasonable
                                                        > first
                                                        > > >> steps. Those who know the ropes more thoroughly and who are
                                                        > > >> experienced with hydrogen balloon filling are certainly
                                                        > invited to chime in.
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >> 73 de Mike W5VSI
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >> PAUL VERHAGE wrote:
                                                        > > >> > My understanding is that if you get in a car wreck, you
                                                        > don't get
                                                        > > >>> injured. You die.
                                                        > > >> > ;)
                                                        > > >> >
                                                        > > >> > Paul
                                                        > > >> >
                                                        > > >> > >>> "Fraser, Don" >
                                                        > > >> 4/23/2008 11:55 AM >>>
                                                        > > >> > Are there additional rules/restrictions with transporting
                                                        > hydrogen
                                                        > > >> over > transporting helium?
                                                        > > >> >
                                                        > > >> > Don Fraser
                                                        > > >> > HP SWD R&D, Colorado Lab
                                                        > > >> > Desk Phone: 719.548.3272
                                                        > > >> > Cell Phone: 719.930.7761
                                                        > > >> >
                                                        > > >> >
                                                        > > >> >
                                                        > > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                                        > > >> > *From:* GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > > >> [mailto:GPSL@yahoogroups.com ] *On
                                                        > > >> Behalf Of > *w0jrt > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:36 AM >
                                                        > > >> *To:* GPSL@yahoogroups.com >
                                                        > > >> *Subject:* [GPSL] Re: Helium depletion > > Many amateur radio
                                                        > > >> balloon groups have been safely using hydrogen (and > saving
                                                        > money)
                                                        > > >> for quite some time. One group that I fly with uses > hydrogen
                                                        > > >> exclusively. When dealing with high pressure tanks one needs >
                                                        > to be
                                                        > > >> safe regardless of the type of gas contained in it.
                                                        > > >> >
                                                        > > >> > -Jerome, W0JRT
                                                        > > >> >
                                                        > > >> > --- In GPSL@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > > >> >, Mike
                                                        > > >> Manes > wrote:
                                                        > > >> > > Perhaps it's high time that ARHAB gets busy figuring out
                                                        > how to *> >> use > > hydrogen as a fill gas safely? I noticed that
                                                        > the price of
                                                        > > >> our He >
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >> --
                                                        > > >> Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel:
                                                        > > >> 303-979-4899 "Things should be made as simple as possible, but
                                                        > not more so."
                                                        > > >> A. Einstein
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >>
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > --
                                                        > > > Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                                                        > > > "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                                                        > > > A. Einstein
                                                        > > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > --
                                                        > > Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                                                        > > "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                                                        > > A. Einstein *

                                                        --
                                                        Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                                                        "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                                                        A. Einstein
                                                      • Mike Manes
                                                        Hi Deb, Not sure I m gonna make GPSL this year. But one of our long-time members, Don Fraser WA9WWS out of Colorado Springs CO is gathering pertinent info for
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Apr 30, 2008
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Hi Deb,

                                                          Not sure I'm gonna make GPSL this year. But one of our long-time members,
                                                          Don Fraser WA9WWS out of Colorado Springs CO is gathering pertinent info
                                                          for EOSS, and he plans to make GPSL for the first time this year. He's also
                                                          agreed to talk on what he's learned and perhaps to host a forum on the
                                                          subject. Contact Don directly - he's cc'ed above.

                                                          73 de Mike W5VSI

                                                          dlkaiser@... wrote:
                                                          > Mike - I agree it would be an awesome topic for GPSL in light of what
                                                          > has been happening with the prices. Would you be willing to lead a
                                                          > discussion on it?
                                                          >
                                                          > We have been discussing tests with hydrogen a lot at our Near Space
                                                          > Ventures monthly meetings and it would be good to share everyones
                                                          > information and viewpoints on the topic.
                                                          >
                                                          > It seems there have been some tests done that indicate that it is a
                                                          > much safer process than previously thought.
                                                          >
                                                          > Thanks for bringing it up. I would love to hear the rest of the
                                                          > group's opinion on the validity of this discussion at GPSL 2008.
                                                          >
                                                          > 73's
                                                          > Deb Kaiser, W0DLK
                                                          > Near Space Ventures
                                                          >
                                                          > ------------------------------------
                                                          >
                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >

                                                          --
                                                          Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                                                          "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                                                          A. Einstein
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