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Re: [GPSL] liability insurance

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  • David
    Thanks again Bill, valuable info and thanks for the tracking program cheers David ve3bbn ... From: wb8elk@aol.com To: GPSL@yahoogroups.com Cc:
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 21, 2007
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      Thanks again Bill, valuable info and thanks for the tracking program
       
      cheers David ve3bbn
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:25 PM
      Subject: Re: [GPSL] liability insurance

      I looked into insurance coverage specifically for balloon flights....we were looking into insurance for our last rockoon flight over the ocean....(rocket fired from a balloon at 70,000 feet).....however, the insurance costs estimate for this mission was about $3000 or more per mission, but this was a very large balloon (512,000 cubic feet zero pressure and a 300 pound rocket)....this was from a company in Texas that does insurance specifically for scientific ballooning.. .smaller ARHAB style missions may be quite a bit less to cover...I will try to find their information and will email to you. I've been told that Lloyd's of London will also do insurance but expect the cost to far exceed your payload costs. I think the homeowner's policy letter might be the best way to go....and affiliating with a local school or university is a very good idea and would most likely cover you....contact them and see if they want to fly an experiment with you. I help volunteer for the local University here as they do a special Balloonsat class for senior EE students which gives them hands-on experience in design and practical application. ..it's considered their senior design project.
       
      The way most groups do it, is to stack the odds in their favor by looking closely at the Balloon Track predicted flight path and make sure your launchsite keeps your landing site away from any large city or town. Balloon Track can be downloaded from the EOSS website:  http://www.eoss. org  You can also use the online BalloonTrack at: http://www.nearspac eventures. com
       
       
      - Bill WB8ELK




      AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

    • David
      Hi Ralph, nice to hear from you. I am starting to be concerned about the happening of this flight. People nowadays are so scared to do just about anything that
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 21, 2007
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        Hi Ralph, nice to hear from you. I am starting to be concerned about the
        happening of this flight. People nowadays are so scared to do just about
        anything that can come back to bite them. I guess in a sense all the
        insurance in the world wouldn't cover the downing of a 767 or the likes of
        it. i know there hasn't been an issue like this happening but they would be
        afraid they would make the Guiness book of records by bringing down an
        aircraft with a balloon.

        Cheers David ve3bbn
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Ralph Wallio, W0RPK" <W0RPK@...>
        To: "GPSL" <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:33 AM
        Subject: Re: [GPSL] liability insurance


        > David --
        >
        > To my knowledge no group has acquired liability insurance for their
        > flights. A few groups have
        > investigated the possibility but all have found premiums to be too high to
        > accept. (Groups: If
        > there are exceptions to this please post your insurance information.)
        >
        > Insurance available to ARRL members does not cover high altitude
        > ballooning. Several years ago AMA,
        > the American Modelers Association, did not want to consider the
        > possibility of covering amateur high
        > altitude ballooning.
        >
        > I have been told that homeowners insurance would cover claims against
        > individual policy holders (not
        > groups) resulting from high altitude ballooning. I asked for and received
        > letters from my agent and
        > insurance company stating same. However, I have not heard of others
        > having a similar experience let
        > alone actually having a claim paid.
        >
        > Employees, even part time employees, of school districts, colleges and
        > universities are covered by
        > their liability insurance. The situation is not so clear cut for
        > volunteer advisers to
        > institutional high altitude ballooning programs. I have asked for and
        > received letters from
        > institutions stating that their liability insurance would cover my
        > volunteer participation.
        >
        > TNX es 73 de Ralph Wallio, WORPK
        > W0RPK@...
        > http://showcase.netins.net/web/wallio/
        > Hubbert's Peak - The Mother of all Perfect Storms
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • David
        Thanks Harry ... From: Harry M To: Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [GPSL] liability
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 21, 2007
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          Thanks Harry

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Harry M" <hhm_74115@...>
          To: <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:28 AM
          Subject: Re: [GPSL] liability insurance


          > David, I do not have insurance.
          >
          > Harry KC5TRB
          >
          > -----
          >
          >
          >
          >> Greetings all, I forgot to ask the group about liability insurance. what
          >> coverage dooes your group have ? and what
          >> approx. is the cost?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Mike Manes
          Hi David, EOSS doesn t carry liability insurance for its balloon operations. We ve sought it out several times in the past, but only Lloyd s of London
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 21, 2007
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            Hi David,

            EOSS doesn't carry liability insurance for its
            balloon operations. We've sought it out several times
            in the past, but only Lloyd's of London returned a quote of
            absurd annual premiums. So we are self-insured. We limit
            our liability, however, several ways:

            1. We are Colorado and Federal non-profit corporation, thus
            granting us significant protection afforded non-profits under
            Colorado tort law.

            2. We take care to avoid posing risks to others and their
            property. Most importantly, we keep our local FAA controllers
            advised of our flight operations, posting HiBal notices a
            week in advance, maintaining cell phone contact with them
            during the flight and providing them near-real-time position
            and altitude reports via our APRS beacons being I-gated to
            findu.com and appearing on the control floor in FAA vernacular:
            VOR radial and range. In addition, we won't launch if the
            predicted trajectory will land us in a populated area or take
            us through heavily-trafficked air corridors.

            3. When we perform flight operations on behalf of colleges
            and Space Grant, we do get some liability protection under
            their policies.

            Now, how much risk are we biting off? After 115 flights in
            16 years, we've never harmed anyone, although we've taken out
            some rural electrical power when landing across power lines.
            And the only 3rd party accident related to any US ARHAB ops
            that I'm aware of was a cracked windshield when a payload
            string landed across an interstate highway; the driver called
            the cell phone number on the payload placard, was compensated
            on the spot and the payload string recovered with no further
            ado. One hit in perhaps 1000 flights ain't bad odds, but
            the results could be a lot worse.

            Hope that helps take the white out of your knuckles.

            73 de Mike W5VSI
            Prez EOSS

            David wrote:
            > Greetings all, I forgot to ask the group about liability insurance. what
            > coverage dooes your group have ? and what approx. is the cost?
            >
            > cheers David ve3bbn
            >

            --
            Mike Manes manes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
            "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so." A. Einstein
          • Zack Clobes
            Project: Traveler has always had $1M liability insurance for our flights. We found a local agent (sorry, he s only licensed in Kansas - we ve checked) that
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 21, 2007
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              Project: Traveler has always had $1M liability insurance for our
              flights. We found a local agent (sorry, he's only licensed in Kansas -
              we've checked) that would write a general liability policy for the radio
              club, which we flew under. I believe it cost us about $250 a year for
              the coverage.

              Zack Clobes, W0ZC
              Project: Traveler

              Ralph Wallio, W0RPK wrote:
              > David --
              >
              > To my knowledge no group has acquired liability insurance for their flights. A few groups have
              > investigated the possibility but all have found premiums to be too high to accept. (Groups: If
              > there are exceptions to this please post your insurance information.)
              >
              > Insurance available to ARRL members does not cover high altitude ballooning. Several years ago AMA,
              > the American Modelers Association, did not want to consider the possibility of covering amateur high
              > altitude ballooning.
              >
              > I have been told that homeowners insurance would cover claims against individual policy holders (not
              > groups) resulting from high altitude ballooning. I asked for and received letters from my agent and
              > insurance company stating same. However, I have not heard of others having a similar experience let
              > alone actually having a claim paid.
              >
              > Employees, even part time employees, of school districts, colleges and universities are covered by
              > their liability insurance. The situation is not so clear cut for volunteer advisers to
              > institutional high altitude ballooning programs. I have asked for and received letters from
              > institutions stating that their liability insurance would cover my volunteer participation.
              >
              > TNX es 73 de Ralph Wallio, WORPK
              > W0RPK@...
              > http://showcase.netins.net/web/wallio/
              > Hubbert's Peak - The Mother of all Perfect Storms
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Mike Manes
              Hi David, If it s any consolation, the US Nat l Wx Service launches 120 radiosondes (RAOB) from some 60 sites, usually near airports, every day. And so far as
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 21, 2007
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                Hi David,

                If it's any consolation, the US Nat'l Wx Service launches
                120 radiosondes (RAOB) from some 60 sites, usually near
                airports, every day. And so far as I know, there's never been
                a midair collision with a RAOB since I got into this game
                16 years ago. Way back when balloon payloads carried long,
                trailing wire antennae, there may have been a "barrage balloon"
                effect with one or more aircraft, which explains the FAR-101
                archaic requirement to flag such wires.

                Your best guarantee to avoid a midair is to let the air
                traffic folks know where you're at. After all, they are
                really the only ones who can prevent a midair - you're helpless
                even if you saw an impending collision, but the controllers
                can steer aircraft around you, typically by 5 miles.

                73 de Mike W5VSI

                David wrote:
                > Hi Ralph, nice to hear from you. I am starting to be concerned about the
                > happening of this flight. People nowadays are so scared to do just about
                > anything that can come back to bite them. I guess in a sense all the
                > insurance in the world wouldn't cover the downing of a 767 or the likes of
                > it. i know there hasn't been an issue like this happening but they would be
                > afraid they would make the Guiness book of records by bringing down an
                > aircraft with a balloon.
                >
                > Cheers David ve3bbn
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Ralph Wallio, W0RPK" <W0RPK@...>
                > To: "GPSL" <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:33 AM
                > Subject: Re: [GPSL] liability insurance
                >
                >
                >> David --
                >>
                >> To my knowledge no group has acquired liability insurance for their
                >> flights. A few groups have
                >> investigated the possibility but all have found premiums to be too high to
                >> accept. (Groups: If
                >> there are exceptions to this please post your insurance information.)
                >>
                >> Insurance available to ARRL members does not cover high altitude
                >> ballooning. Several years ago AMA,
                >> the American Modelers Association, did not want to consider the
                >> possibility of covering amateur high
                >> altitude ballooning.
                >>
                >> I have been told that homeowners insurance would cover claims against
                >> individual policy holders (not
                >> groups) resulting from high altitude ballooning. I asked for and received
                >> letters from my agent and
                >> insurance company stating same. However, I have not heard of others
                >> having a similar experience let
                >> alone actually having a claim paid.
                >>
                >> Employees, even part time employees, of school districts, colleges and
                >> universities are covered by
                >> their liability insurance. The situation is not so clear cut for
                >> volunteer advisers to
                >> institutional high altitude ballooning programs. I have asked for and
                >> received letters from
                >> institutions stating that their liability insurance would cover my
                >> volunteer participation.
                >>
                >> TNX es 73 de Ralph Wallio, WORPK
                >> W0RPK@...
                >> http://showcase.netins.net/web/wallio/
                >> Hubbert's Peak - The Mother of all Perfect Storms
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                Mike Manes manes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so." A. Einstein
              • Ralph Wallio, W0RPK
                Zack -- Agents only sell insurance. Which insurance company issued the policy? Is it just a general liability policy or does it specifically cover damage
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 22, 2007
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                  Zack --

                  Agents only sell insurance. Which insurance company issued the policy? Is it just a general
                  liability policy or does it specifically cover damage claims that result from high altitude
                  ballooning flights?

                  TNX es 73 de Ralph Wallio, WORPK
                  W0RPK@...
                  http://showcase.netins.net/web/wallio/
                  Hubbert's Peak - The Mother of all Perfect Storms


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Zack Clobes" <zclobes@...>
                  To: <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:15 PM
                  Subject: Re: [GPSL] liability insurance


                  Project: Traveler has always had $1M liability insurance for our
                  flights. We found a local agent (sorry, he's only licensed in Kansas -
                  we've checked) that would write a general liability policy for the radio
                  club, which we flew under. I believe it cost us about $250 a year for
                  the coverage.

                  Zack Clobes, W0ZC
                  Project: Traveler
                • David
                  Thanks mike really great advise. All of this info is going into a paper to present to the club to excite some interest. Normally it takes a couple of sticks of
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 22, 2007
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                    Thanks mike really great advise.
                    All of this info is going into a paper to present to the club to excite some
                    interest. Normally it takes a couple of sticks of TNT, but these e-mails
                    sure have spawned a real interest in me.

                    cheers David ve3bbn


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Mike Manes" <manes@...>
                    To: <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:04 AM
                    Subject: Re: [GPSL] liability insurance


                    > Hi David,
                    >
                    > If it's any consolation, the US Nat'l Wx Service launches
                    > 120 radiosondes (RAOB) from some 60 sites, usually near
                    > airports, every day. And so far as I know, there's never been
                    > a midair collision with a RAOB since I got into this game
                    > 16 years ago. Way back when balloon payloads carried long,
                    > trailing wire antennae, there may have been a "barrage balloon"
                    > effect with one or more aircraft, which explains the FAR-101
                    > archaic requirement to flag such wires.
                    >
                    > Your best guarantee to avoid a midair is to let the air
                    > traffic folks know where you're at. After all, they are
                    > really the only ones who can prevent a midair - you're helpless
                    > even if you saw an impending collision, but the controllers
                    > can steer aircraft around you, typically by 5 miles.
                    >
                    > 73 de Mike W5VSI
                    >
                    > David wrote:
                    >> Hi Ralph, nice to hear from you. I am starting to be concerned about the
                    >> happening of this flight. People nowadays are so scared to do just about
                    >> anything that can come back to bite them. I guess in a sense all the
                    >> insurance in the world wouldn't cover the downing of a 767 or the likes
                    >> of
                    >> it. i know there hasn't been an issue like this happening but they would
                    >> be
                    >> afraid they would make the Guiness book of records by bringing down an
                    >> aircraft with a balloon.
                    >>
                    >> Cheers David ve3bbn
                    >> ----- Original Message -----
                    >> From: "Ralph Wallio, W0RPK" <W0RPK@...>
                    >> To: "GPSL" <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:33 AM
                    >> Subject: Re: [GPSL] liability insurance
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>> David --
                    >>>
                    >>> To my knowledge no group has acquired liability insurance for their
                    >>> flights. A few groups have
                    >>> investigated the possibility but all have found premiums to be too high
                    >>> to
                    >>> accept. (Groups: If
                    >>> there are exceptions to this please post your insurance information.)
                    >>>
                    >>> Insurance available to ARRL members does not cover high altitude
                    >>> ballooning. Several years ago AMA,
                    >>> the American Modelers Association, did not want to consider the
                    >>> possibility of covering amateur high
                    >>> altitude ballooning.
                    >>>
                    >>> I have been told that homeowners insurance would cover claims against
                    >>> individual policy holders (not
                    >>> groups) resulting from high altitude ballooning. I asked for and
                    >>> received
                    >>> letters from my agent and
                    >>> insurance company stating same. However, I have not heard of others
                    >>> having a similar experience let
                    >>> alone actually having a claim paid.
                    >>>
                    >>> Employees, even part time employees, of school districts, colleges and
                    >>> universities are covered by
                    >>> their liability insurance. The situation is not so clear cut for
                    >>> volunteer advisers to
                    >>> institutional high altitude ballooning programs. I have asked for and
                    >>> received letters from
                    >>> institutions stating that their liability insurance would cover my
                    >>> volunteer participation.
                    >>>
                    >>> TNX es 73 de Ralph Wallio, WORPK
                    >>> W0RPK@...
                    >>> http://showcase.netins.net/web/wallio/
                    >>> Hubbert's Peak - The Mother of all Perfect Storms
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    > --
                    > Mike Manes manes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                    > "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so." A.
                    > Einstein
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Zack Clobes
                    I ve forgotten, and the radio club has all of the paperwork. I can try to find out. The coverage is a general liability policy for the club and its associated
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 22, 2007
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                      I've forgotten, and the radio club has all of the paperwork. I can try
                      to find out.

                      The coverage is a general liability policy for the club and its
                      associated activities. As I recall (from ?six? years ago), the policy
                      included any liability that the club's property might induce on someone
                      or something. That supposedly includes an antenna tower, or a balloon
                      payload.

                      Zack


                      Ralph Wallio, W0RPK wrote:
                      > Zack --
                      >
                      > Agents only sell insurance. Which insurance company issued the policy? Is it just a general
                      > liability policy or does it specifically cover damage claims that result from high altitude
                      > ballooning flights?
                      >
                      > TNX es 73 de Ralph Wallio, WORPK
                      > W0RPK@...
                      > http://showcase.netins.net/web/wallio/
                      > Hubbert's Peak - The Mother of all Perfect Storms
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Zack Clobes" <zclobes@...>
                      > To: <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:15 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [GPSL] liability insurance
                      >
                      >
                      > Project: Traveler has always had $1M liability insurance for our
                      > flights. We found a local agent (sorry, he's only licensed in Kansas -
                      > we've checked) that would write a general liability policy for the radio
                      > club, which we flew under. I believe it cost us about $250 a year for
                      > the coverage.
                      >
                      > Zack Clobes, W0ZC
                      > Project: Traveler
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • David
                      thanks for the info Zack, I will have our VP check out our insurance plan cheers David ve3bbn ... From: Zack Clobes To:
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 22, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        thanks for the info Zack, I will have our VP check out our insurance plan

                        cheers David ve3bbn

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Zack Clobes" <zclobes@...>
                        To: <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 7:13 PM
                        Subject: Re: [GPSL] liability insurance


                        > I've forgotten, and the radio club has all of the paperwork. I can try
                        > to find out.
                        >
                        > The coverage is a general liability policy for the club and its
                        > associated activities. As I recall (from ?six? years ago), the policy
                        > included any liability that the club's property might induce on someone
                        > or something. That supposedly includes an antenna tower, or a balloon
                        > payload.
                        >
                        > Zack
                        >
                        >
                        > Ralph Wallio, W0RPK wrote:
                        >> Zack --
                        >>
                        >> Agents only sell insurance. Which insurance company issued the policy?
                        >> Is it just a general
                        >> liability policy or does it specifically cover damage claims that result
                        >> from high altitude
                        >> ballooning flights?
                        >>
                        >> TNX es 73 de Ralph Wallio, WORPK
                        >> W0RPK@...
                        >> http://showcase.netins.net/web/wallio/
                        >> Hubbert's Peak - The Mother of all Perfect Storms
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> ----- Original Message -----
                        >> From: "Zack Clobes" <zclobes@...>
                        >> To: <GPSL@yahoogroups.com>
                        >> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:15 PM
                        >> Subject: Re: [GPSL] liability insurance
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Project: Traveler has always had $1M liability insurance for our
                        >> flights. We found a local agent (sorry, he's only licensed in Kansas -
                        >> we've checked) that would write a general liability policy for the radio
                        >> club, which we flew under. I believe it cost us about $250 a year for
                        >> the coverage.
                        >>
                        >> Zack Clobes, W0ZC
                        >> Project: Traveler
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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