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unwinder

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  • Norman T. Kjome
    Yeah, that looks like the device I saw NOAA use. But 2.5 kg is still a bit light for a non-exempt heavy . IIRC, one version included a series of braking rods
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 15, 2012
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    Yeah, that looks like the device I saw NOAA use. But 2.5 kg is still a
    bit light for a non-exempt "heavy". IIRC, one version included a series
    of braking rods that the payout line could be routed thru, zig-zag fashion, to
    control payout speed.

    Hello Mike and all,

     

    See the attached pdf on the Graw unwinders.

     

    That was my modification that you are remembering, Mike. I added a section below the reel with friction pins to limit the load applied to the reel, much like the "rappel rack" used by climbers.

    http://www.pyro-tection.com/files/pdf/rapple_racks.pdf

     

    The modified reel would handle 10 Kg with suitable nylon line (2 mm diameter, about 200 pound test). I bought the unwinders with 2-mm line completely filling the reels.

     

    I contacted Graw yesterday and below is a reply from the Graw rep in the US. I said that I would pass along his email and he later said that they might work on the price (but I paid $30 ten years ago -- buying them by the case).

     

    Norm

     

     

    Hello;
     
    My associates at GRAW in Germany passed your inquiry to me today for handling.  I am responsible for Graw sales in North America and would be happy to get you a quotation for our UW-1 dereelers.  I have attached a data sheet describing the item- hopefully it is what you are remembering from years past.  Currently the sale price is @ $75 each but depends on quantity and the length of line required.  We can accommodate specific lengths if need be.  Shipment fees from Germany to your address in USA would be additional.
     
    Hope this helps.  Please let me know your comments and I will be happy to prepare a formal Quotation for you.
    Best regards and looking forward to your reply,
    Ed
     
    Ed Figelman
    For Graw Radiosondes GmbH
    Manufacturers Representative
    EMail: ed@...
    Tel: 610-649-5076
     
  • Mike Manes
    Shoot. I shoulda known that was yet another Kjome invention, along with the Kjome Choke and the vented 3000 gm used on vaporsondes. BTW, did you design that
    Message 2 of 12 , Jun 15, 2012
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      Shoot. I shoulda known that was yet another Kjome invention, along with
      the Kjome Choke and the vented 3000 gm used on vaporsondes.

      BTW, did you design that vertical wind tunnel out in the hangar used to
      calibrate the particulate-sondes? I sure could use something like that
      to develop a steerable spherical 'chute.

      And yeah, I also recall the sticker shock from seeing Graw's list price.
      You'd think that the labor cost would be minimal, considering all the
      unemployed mechanical clock makers over there :=P.

      73 de Mike W5VSI

      On 6/15/2012 11:31, Norman T. Kjome wrote:
      > /Yeah, that looks like the device I saw NOAA use. But 2.5 kg is still a
      > bit light for a non-exempt "heavy". IIRC, one version included a series
      > of braking rods that the payout line could be routed thru, zig-zag fashion, to
      > control payout speed.
      > /
      >
      > Hello Mike and all,
      >
      > See the attached pdf on the Graw unwinders.
      >
      > That was my modification that you are remembering, Mike. I added a section
      > below the reel with friction pins to limit the load applied to the reel, much
      > like the "rappel rack" used by climbers.
      >
      > http://www.pyro-tection.com/files/pdf/rapple_racks.pdf
      >
      > The modified reel would handle 10 Kg with suitable nylon line (2 mm diameter,
      > about 200 pound test). I bought the unwinders with 2-mm line completely
      > filling the reels.
      >
      > I contacted Graw yesterday and below is a reply from the Graw rep in the US. I
      > said that I would pass along his email and he later said that they might work
      > on the price (but I paid $30 ten years ago -- buying them by the case).
      >
      > Norm
      >
      > Hello;
      > My associates at GRAW in Germany passed your inquiry to me today for handling.
      > I am responsible for Graw sales in North America and would be happy to get you
      > a quotation for our UW-1 dereelers. I have attached a data sheet describing
      > the item- hopefully it is what you are remembering from years past. Currently
      > the sale price is @ $75 each but depends on quantity and the length of line
      > required. We can accommodate specific lengths if need be. Shipment fees from
      > Germany to your address in USA would be additional.
      > Hope this helps. Please let me know your comments and I will be happy to
      > prepare a formal Quotation for you.
      > Best regards and looking forward to your reply,
      > Ed
      > Ed Figelman
      > For Graw Radiosondes GmbH
      > Manufacturers Representative
      > EMail: ed@... <mailto:ed@...>
      > Tel: 610-649-5076

      --
      Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
      "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
      A. Einstein
    • Norman T. Kjome
      Hi Mike, The vented 3000 gm balloons were designed by Sam Oltmans at NOAA. (Not my invention.) The vertical tube you mention was actually used to calibrate
      Message 3 of 12 , Jun 15, 2012
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        Hi Mike,

        The vented 3000 gm balloons were designed by Sam Oltmans at NOAA. (Not my invention.)

        The vertical tube you mention was actually used to calibrate backscattersondes -- not a wind tunnel. There was not all that much velocity. The 4 blowers fans were used to move filtered air into the tube for a reference level, and then ambient air was introduced for comparison. It was designed by Jim Rosen.

        Yah, the reels are a bit pricey, but do work well. The weather service used a much smaller reel for radiosondes, but it cannot be scaled up, so not useful. See it on page 13 in this pdf:
        http://vortex.nsstc.uah.edu/atmchem/ozonesonde/Flight%20notes/Ozoneflight%20Instructions.pdf

        I would like to see more on the NCAR device (US Patent 4529018 NCAR, Lichfield) I found the patent but could not view the images.

        Norm
      • Mark Caviezel
        Hello Norm, Here is the .pdf of the unwinder patent.  I rather like the simplicity & low parts count.  The one downside I see is that it may be a bit of a
        Message 4 of 12 , Jun 15, 2012
        Hello Norm,
        Here is the .pdf of the unwinder patent.  I rather like the simplicity & low parts count.  The one downside I see is that it may be a bit of a chore to load it up.   One cool characteristic is that the wind pattern can be modified to change the speed of the unwinding, even a pre-programmed slow, fast, slow speed schedule could be arranged.  

        best

        - Mark



        From: Norman T. Kjome <Kjome@...>
        To: Mike Manes <mrmanes@...>
        Cc: jmfranke <jmfranke@...>; Mark Caviezel <kmcaviezel@...>; GPSL <gpsl@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 6:10 PM
        Subject: RE: unwinder

        Hi Mike,

        The vented 3000 gm balloons were designed by Sam Oltmans at NOAA. (Not my invention.)

        The vertical tube you mention was actually used to calibrate backscattersondes -- not a wind tunnel. There was not all that much velocity. The 4 blowers fans were used to move filtered air into the tube for a reference level, and then ambient air was introduced for comparison. It was designed by Jim Rosen.

        Yah, the reels are a bit pricey, but do work well. The weather service used a much smaller reel for radiosondes, but it cannot be scaled up, so not useful. See it on page 13 in this pdf:
        http://vortex.nsstc.uah.edu/atmchem/ozonesonde/Flight%20notes/Ozoneflight%20Instructions.pdf

        I would like to see more on the NCAR device  (US Patent 4529018 NCAR, Lichfield)  I found the patent but could not view the images.

        Norm

      • Mike Manes
        Boy - now I m disillusioned :=(. But that doesn t diminish the value of your developments in unmanned ballooning and your generous mentorship to EOSS in its
        Message 5 of 12 , Jun 15, 2012
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          Boy - now I'm disillusioned :=(. But that doesn't diminish the value of your
          developments in unmanned ballooning and your generous mentorship to EOSS in
          its salad days.

          I only need like 15-20 MPH airflow in a 6 - 8 ft diameter to evaluate
          design tweaks, so not a huge blast.

          I've run into that viewer issue at UPSTO.gov as well. That may be why I
          downloaded a freeware TIFF viewer app called InnoVue by Innomage Enterprises,
          Inc, which does the job nicely. K-mark did post a .pdf of the patent to the
          group a bit ago, IIRC.

          73 de Mike W5VSI


          On 6/15/2012 19:10, Norman T. Kjome wrote:
          > Hi Mike,
          >
          > The vented 3000 gm balloons were designed by Sam Oltmans at NOAA. (Not my invention.)
          >
          > The vertical tube you mention was actually used to calibrate backscattersondes -- not a wind tunnel. There was not all that much velocity. The 4 blowers fans were used to move filtered air into the tube for a reference level, and then ambient air was introduced for comparison. It was designed by Jim Rosen.
          >
          > Yah, the reels are a bit pricey, but do work well. The weather service used a much smaller reel for radiosondes, but it cannot be scaled up, so not useful. See it on page 13 in this pdf:
          > http://vortex.nsstc.uah.edu/atmchem/ozonesonde/Flight%20notes/Ozoneflight%20Instructions.pdf
          >
          > I would like to see more on the NCAR device (US Patent 4529018 NCAR, Lichfield) I found the patent but could not view the images.
          >
          > Norm

          --
          Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
          "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
          A. Einstein
        • James Ewen
          ... Wow, that is a very simple and elegant unwinder... I like it! I want something like that for a cut away device... very low parts count, and very simple to
          Message 6 of 12 , Jun 15, 2012
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            > Here is the .pdf of the unwinder patent.  I rather like the simplicity & low parts count.
            > The one downside I see is that it may be a bit of a chore to load it up.

            Wow, that is a very simple and elegant unwinder... I like it!

            I want something like that for a cut away device... very low parts
            count, and very simple to use.

            --
            James
            VE6SRV
          • Joe
            The only thing that concerns me with this design is it looks like it needs very light weight line. Very small stuff. otherwise not many feet wil be able to be
            Message 7 of 12 , Jun 16, 2012
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              The only thing that concerns me with this design is it looks like it needs very light weight line.  Very small stuff. otherwise not many feet wil be able to be wound up on it.

              Our 300 foot lines don't look like they would have a chance of fitting unless we used something like spectra line or similar.

              Joe WB9SBD
              Sig
              The Original Rolling Ball Clock
              Idle Tyme
              Idle-Tyme.com
              http://www.idle-tyme.com

              On 6/16/2012 12:10 PM, Mike Manes wrote:
              Hi James,
              
              How would you use it for a cutaway device?  It's just designed to pay out
              the lift line gradually over a period of a minute or so.  And despite its
              simplicity, as shown in the patent, it's just single-use if you cut away
              at burst, since it's bonded to the balloon.  I suppose one could configure
              it so it's bonded to the parachute, however, but then you're still stuck
              with losing it if you cut away.
              
              73 de Mike W5VSI
              
              
              On 6/15/2012 23:05, James Ewen wrote:
              
              Here is the .pdf of the unwinder patent.  I rather like the simplicity&  low parts count.
              The one downside I see is that it may be a bit of a chore to load it up.
              
              Wow, that is a very simple and elegant unwinder... I like it!
              
              I want something like that for a cut away device... very low parts
              count, and very simple to use.
              
              --
              James
              VE6SRV
              
              
              ------------------------------------
              
              Yahoo! Groups Links
              
              
              
              
              
            • Mark Garrett
              I have one of these unwinders and yes it is pretty light string, reminds me of kite string. Mark Garrett KA9SZX ________________________________ From: Joe
              Message 8 of 12 , Jun 16, 2012
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                I have one of these unwinders and yes it is pretty light string, reminds me of kite string.
                Mark Garrett
                KA9SZX


                From: Joe <nss@...>
                To: Mike Manes <mrmanes@...>
                Cc: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>; GPSL <gpsl@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 11:30 AM
                Subject: Re: [GPSL] Re: unwinder

                The only thing that concerns me with this design is it looks like it needs very light weight line.  Very small stuff. otherwise not many feet wil be able to be wound up on it.

                Our 300 foot lines don't look like they would have a chance of fitting unless we used something like spectra line or similar.

                Joe WB9SBD
                Sig
                The Original Rolling Ball Clock
                Idle Tyme
                Idle-Tyme.com
                http://www.idle-tyme.com

                On 6/16/2012 12:10 PM, Mike Manes wrote:
                Hi James,
                
                How would you use it for a cutaway device?  It's just designed to pay out
                the lift line gradually over a period of a minute or so.  And despite its
                simplicity, as shown in the patent, it's just single-use if you cut away
                at burst, since it's bonded to the balloon.  I suppose one could configure
                it so it's bonded to the parachute, however, but then you're still stuck
                with losing it if you cut away.
                
                73 de Mike W5VSI
                
                
                On 6/15/2012 23:05, James Ewen wrote:
                
                Here is the .pdf of the unwinder patent.  I rather like the simplicity&  low parts count.
                The one downside I see is that it may be a bit of a chore to load it up.
                
                Wow, that is a very simple and elegant unwinder... I like it!
                
                I want something like that for a cut away device... very low parts
                count, and very simple to use.
                
                --
                James
                VE6SRV
                
                
                ------------------------------------
                
                Yahoo! Groups Links
                
                
                
                
                


              • Mike Manes
                Hi James, How would you use it for a cutaway device? It s just designed to pay out the lift line gradually over a period of a minute or so. And despite its
                Message 9 of 12 , Jun 16, 2012
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                  Hi James,

                  How would you use it for a cutaway device? It's just designed to pay out
                  the lift line gradually over a period of a minute or so. And despite its
                  simplicity, as shown in the patent, it's just single-use if you cut away
                  at burst, since it's bonded to the balloon. I suppose one could configure
                  it so it's bonded to the parachute, however, but then you're still stuck
                  with losing it if you cut away.

                  73 de Mike W5VSI


                  On 6/15/2012 23:05, James Ewen wrote:
                  >> Here is the .pdf of the unwinder patent. I rather like the simplicity& low parts count.
                  >> The one downside I see is that it may be a bit of a chore to load it up.
                  >
                  > Wow, that is a very simple and elegant unwinder... I like it!
                  >
                  > I want something like that for a cut away device... very low parts
                  > count, and very simple to use.
                  >
                  > --
                  > James
                  > VE6SRV
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                  "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                  A. Einstein
                • Mike Manes
                  You could always scale it up to accommodate as much line as you need. My concern with the notched wheel design is that it would hang up if the paid-out line
                  Message 10 of 12 , Jun 16, 2012
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                    You could always scale it up to accommodate as much line as you need. My
                    concern with the notched wheel design is that it would hang up if the
                    paid-out line ever got snagged in that notch, e.g., during some swing and
                    sway (with Sammy Kaye :=) during ascent. Making the notch narrower might
                    help, but going too narrow might also hang it up. Otherwise, pretty dern
                    clever.

                    73 de Mike W5VSI

                    On 6/16/2012 10:30, Joe wrote:
                    > The only thing that concerns me with this design is it looks like it needs
                    > very light weight line. Very small stuff. otherwise not many feet wil be able
                    > to be wound up on it.
                    >
                    > Our 300 foot lines don't look like they would have a chance of fitting unless
                    > we used something like spectra line or similar.
                    >
                    > Joe WB9SBD
                    >
                    > The Original Rolling Ball Clock
                    > Idle Tyme
                    > Idle-Tyme.com
                    > http://www.idle-tyme.com
                    >
                    > On 6/16/2012 12:10 PM, Mike Manes wrote:
                    >> Hi James,
                    >>
                    >> How would you use it for a cutaway device? It's just designed to pay out
                    >> the lift line gradually over a period of a minute or so. And despite its
                    >> simplicity, as shown in the patent, it's just single-use if you cut away
                    >> at burst, since it's bonded to the balloon. I suppose one could configure
                    >> it so it's bonded to the parachute, however, but then you're still stuck
                    >> with losing it if you cut away.
                    >>
                    >> 73 de Mike W5VSI
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> On 6/15/2012 23:05, James Ewen wrote:
                    >>>> Here is the .pdf of the unwinder patent. I rather like the simplicity& low parts count.
                    >>>> The one downside I see is that it may be a bit of a chore to load it up.
                    >>> Wow, that is a very simple and elegant unwinder... I like it!
                    >>>
                    >>> I want something like that for a cut away device... very low parts
                    >>> count, and very simple to use.
                    >>>
                    >>> --
                    >>> James
                    >>> VE6SRV
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>
                    >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>

                    --
                    Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                    A. Einstein
                  • James Ewen
                    ... I wouldn t use that device for a cut away. I want a cut away device that is similar in that it is simple and has a low parts count. The ratcheting unwinder
                    Message 11 of 12 , Jun 17, 2012
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                      On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Mike Manes <mrmanes@...> wrote:

                      > How would you use it for a cutaway device?

                      I wouldn't use that device for a cut away. I want a cut away device
                      that is similar in that it is simple and has a low parts count.

                      The ratcheting unwinder does the same thing as the notched flywheel,
                      but the flywheel has far fewer parts, and is very easy to manufacture.

                      I want a cut away device that watches for burst, and then
                      automatically cuts away from the shredded remains.

                      No aneroid cells, no microcontroller watching for ascent rate changes,
                      no nichrome wire... just a simple, elegant little device that hold the
                      payload train together until the balloon lift goes away, and then
                      reliably releases the payload from the balloon.

                      Just while answering this query, I've been thinking, and I think
                      something like this notched wheel might be able to be used to affect
                      release... I'm going to have to make one and try it out.

                      --
                      James
                      VE6SRV
                    • Mike Manes
                      Hi James, Well, if you take out the anaeroid arming feature, and just be sure that there s lift line tension on on the fast release, then the design that EOSS
                      Message 12 of 12 , Jun 17, 2012
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                        Hi James,

                        Well, if you take out the anaeroid arming feature, and just be sure that
                        there's lift line tension on on the fast release, then the design that
                        EOSS and NSV use is pretty K.I.S.S.: 4 parts - 2 jaws, a pivot and a spring.

                        73 de Mike W5VSI

                        On 6/17/2012 10:07, James Ewen wrote:
                        > On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Mike Manes<mrmanes@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >> How would you use it for a cutaway device?
                        >
                        > I wouldn't use that device for a cut away. I want a cut away device
                        > that is similar in that it is simple and has a low parts count.
                        >
                        > The ratcheting unwinder does the same thing as the notched flywheel,
                        > but the flywheel has far fewer parts, and is very easy to manufacture.
                        >
                        > I want a cut away device that watches for burst, and then
                        > automatically cuts away from the shredded remains.
                        >
                        > No aneroid cells, no microcontroller watching for ascent rate changes,
                        > no nichrome wire... just a simple, elegant little device that hold the
                        > payload train together until the balloon lift goes away, and then
                        > reliably releases the payload from the balloon.
                        >
                        > Just while answering this query, I've been thinking, and I think
                        > something like this notched wheel might be able to be used to affect
                        > release... I'm going to have to make one and try it out.
                        >

                        --
                        Mike Manes mrmanes@... Tel: 303-979-4899
                        "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not more so."
                        A. Einstein
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