- ... Karel, sorry if what I m about to say is a dead horse (or is it a pig? :-) but I always thought that 2 Tim 3:16 is the verse. I mean I know the rebuttal,Message 1 of 81 , May 1, 2006View Source--- In GHClark_List1@yahoogroups.com, "kj" <kjcj@...> wrote:
> No: my problem is with the earlier claim, "because theKarel,
> Bible itself says so..." Huh?? Just where exactly???
sorry if what I'm about to say is a dead horse (or is it a pig? :-)
but I always thought that 2 Tim 3:16 is the verse. I mean I know the
rebuttal, ie that the verse does not refer to the New Testament (which
is actually not without dispute), but if Romans is Scripture, then,
according to 2 Tim 3:16, it is given by inspiration of God for it says
"*all Scripture*..." How do we know that Romans is Scripture is of
course a different question.
ps - check out my new toy, a blog I started a couple of days ago :-)
- RhettS asks: I ve always been told that [a] unsaved people cannot confess Christ as Lord and Savior nor [b] hold to all the correct doctrines. [c] That theMessage 81 of 81 , Jun 12, 2006View Source
RhettS asks: >>I've always been told that [a] unsaved people cannot confess Christ as Lord and Savior nor [b] hold to all the correct doctrines. [c] That the Bible teaches unsaved man cannot believe the Gospel.<<
Hmmmmm…. In one sense, I believe, you are correct about a-b. Of course, in a sense it is also true about saved men also: Without God causing the beliefs, no man (saved or not) can and will believe anything of their own accord.
[a] In the sense of being able to confess Christ as Lord this surely is false. In fact we are taught that in the end ALL will confess Christ as the Lord --- some as their Lord, friend and brother; others as their Lord, judge and executioner. We are told that the Egyptians surely _knew_ the Lord (when the waters were washing over them), and even that he was YHWH, while the Israelites murmured and complained.
But as to Christ being their Saviour…. Well, here too we are told many will claim and confess this, and really believe it to be true, self-deluded of course, and to their horror on the Judgment day they will learn it to have been a self-delusion, sent on them by the Lord. As for the devils, according to the Bible they already know this.
[b] Well, this is as we have seen in earlier posts patently false. That is, the saved (and not just the unsaved) believe many errors and falsehoods, in addition to true doctrines. That is why the elect are sanctified and they are to pray and ask to be sanctified in all of the days of their lives. That is too why the sanctification process never ends, until they die.
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. (John 17:16-17). If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. (1 John 5:17) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:17)
[c] Here we face three difficulties.
1) Where in the Bible is this supposed to be taught (we need to see the context and the logical form of the assertion); 2) just what exactly do we mean, as opposed to what the Bible may mean, when we say that “unsaved man cannot believe the Gospel” (e.g. what does the word “Gospel” mean); and 3) it seems that in a sense, and in principle, many including the Devils can believe huge portions of the Bible to be true, including many of those we traditionally consider to be part of the Gospel.
Yet we explicitly are told the devils are not saved and will not be saved. (For now I will assume that all accept the “believing” must be understood as _instrumentally_ only.) So, how do we resolve this apparent contradiction; can and should the claim “unsaved man cannot believe the Gospel” be qualified or modified in some important ways, to preserve its truth, yet not introduce a contradiction?
Now consider this worst case example: In principle, Satan could even believe the *whole* of the Bible (I do not think he does, but let’s FSA he does); but of what use would this faith be to him?
FSA, his belief would include the truths that Jesus died to save his own and came to redeem all those who belong to Adam’s seed after ordinary generation etc. and that in fact He did accomplish this by His death and resurrection on the cross.
But, Satan knows he is not one of those who belong to Adam’s seed by any kind of generation. Yet, FSA, he believes all this to be true. What then? Might he not tremble? Or how about this response: “And, behold, [the devils] cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? … So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine… Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.” Or, “And unclean spirits, when they saw [Jesus], fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.”
What is it that the devils and unclean spirits believed already then, well before crucifixion!?! The point is of course, if the devils and Satan can believe such truths, why cannot an unsaved man also, especially when he really is an unregenerate and so a servant and slave of the Evil one?
Moreover, underlying all this is the assumption that men and devils are autonomous beings; that they understand truth claims and assent (i.e. believe) to their truth in and of their own strength, will, desire etc. and so autonomously.
But we know from the Bible this is patently false: God is the Sovereign who pleases to do as He wills and as is His pleasure. He and only He is the final source and cause of all, including all of His rational creatures’ thoughts and beliefs. That is, God alone causes any man or angel to believe what it pleases Him to cause them to believe.
That is why, if it pleases Him, not just devils but unsaved men can believe many truths, which we traditionally include as being part of the Gospel. Faith in and of itself is not and does not ever save any sinner. Our faith is only ever the instrumental cause, not the efficient or meritorious or ultimate cause.
Hope this helps…..