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Re: [GAdetection] Re: About Chandler's role in the rise of hard-boiled fiction

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  • Xavier Lechard
    Mmmm... While he surely was not a pioneering Women s Lib writer, Carr created some interesting female characters, alike Fay Seton in He Who Whispers . His
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 1 3:47 AM
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      Mmmm...
      While he surely was not a pioneering Women's Lib writer, Carr created some interesting female characters, alike Fay Seton in "He Who Whispers". His portrayal of opposite sex also owes much to screwball comedies which were all the rage back then - and we know Carr was a fervent moviegoer.
      Chandler belonged to a wholly different school. He was a puritan, whom vision of women came right from The Ecclesiast (which is a good read, except for what it says about women).

      Friendly,
      Xavier
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: vegetableduck
      To: GAdetection@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 9:41 PM
      Subject: [GAdetection] Re: About Chandler's role in the rise of hard-boiled fiction


      Yes, and JDC's portrayal of women was not exactly a triumph of
      characterization, much as I love his books. Even Chandler (what I
      have read) comes off as tame by today's standards.

      By the way, I think the most laughable Queen treatment of sex is in
      The Last Woman in His Life (1970?), but I understand that this was
      ghosted, fortunately.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • vegetableduck
      My point is that often people seem to think sex means more realistic treatment of character, whereas it often just leads to a different kind of stereotype.
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 1 11:56 PM
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        My point is that often people seem to think sex means more realistic
        treatment of character, whereas it often just leads to a different
        kind of stereotype. Another more sexually explicit writer who has
        been charged with portraying women poorly is Simenon. I don't know
        enough about his books to comment on this matter, but I was amused
        by the "I slept with 10,000 women" business (It was 10,000?). I
        loved Simenon's explanation that he suffered for art, in effect.
        That he had to know women to write about them and the only way he
        could really know them was to have sex with them! This rule didn't
        apply to men, however....

        --- In GAdetection@y..., "Xavier Lechard" <lechardxavier@h...> wrote:
        > Mmmm...
        > While he surely was not a pioneering Women's Lib writer, Carr
        created some interesting female characters, alike Fay Seton in "He
        Who Whispers". His portrayal of opposite sex also owes much to
        screwball comedies which were all the rage back then - and we know
        Carr was a fervent moviegoer.
        > Chandler belonged to a wholly different school. He was a puritan,
        whom vision of women came right from The Ecclesiast (which is a good
        read, except for what it says about women).
        >
        > Friendly,
        > Xavier
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: vegetableduck
        > To: GAdetection@y...
        > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 9:41 PM
        > Subject: [GAdetection] Re: About Chandler's role in the rise of
        hard-boiled fiction
        >
        >
        > Yes, and JDC's portrayal of women was not exactly a triumph of
        > characterization, much as I love his books. Even Chandler (what
        I
        > have read) comes off as tame by today's standards.
        >
        > By the way, I think the most laughable Queen treatment of sex is
        in
        > The Last Woman in His Life (1970?), but I understand that this
        was
        > ghosted, fortunately.
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • b_ergang
        This may seem a minor point, but I d like to correct a mistake in one of Xavier s posts. BLACK MASK, albeit the most well-known and well-regarded, was not the
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 2, 2002
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          This may seem a minor point, but I'd like to correct a mistake in
          one of Xavier's posts. BLACK MASK, albeit the most well-known and
          well-regarded, was not the only pulp to publish Chandler and other
          respected hardboiled writers. Among the many others were DIME
          DETECTIVE, DETECTIVE FICTION WEEKLY, THRILLING DETECTIVE, and
          MANHUNT.

          --Barry

          > --- In GAdetection@y..., "Xavier Lechard" <lechardxavier@h...>
          wrote:

          >By his pamphlets and essays, Chandler made a
          > minor form, restricted to only one magazine ("Black Mask") into an
          > important then near-domining one.
        • b_ergang
          A correction is necessary here--and from an admitted Chandler fan. Marlowe biblically knew Linda Loring in THE LONG GOODBYE, and was sorely tempted to sleep
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 11, 2002
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            A correction is necessary here--and from an admitted Chandler fan.
            Marlowe "biblically" knew Linda Loring in THE LONG GOODBYE, and was
            sorely tempted to sleep with Eileen Wade.

            In earlier books, although he didn't act on them, Marlowe had what
            were hardly "monkish" thoughts about a number of women: Vivian Regan
            in THE BIG SLEEP; Mrs. Grayle in FAREWELL, MY LOVELY; Adrienne
            Fromsett in THE LADY IN THE LAKE; and Mavis Weld in THE LITTLE
            SISTER.

            --- In GAdetection@y..., "Xavier Lechard" <lechardxavier@h...> wrote:
            Marlowe's sex life was near of a monk's until his
            > last adventure, "Playback", in which Chandler finally allow him to
            > biblically know a woman.
          • vegetableduck
            Yes, but even Jimmy Carter had lust in his heart! CJE ... was ... Regan ... to
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 12, 2002
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              Yes, but even Jimmy Carter had lust in his heart!

              CJE

              --- In GAdetection@y..., "b_ergang" <bergang@o...> wrote:
              > A correction is necessary here--and from an admitted Chandler fan.
              > Marlowe "biblically" knew Linda Loring in THE LONG GOODBYE, and
              was
              > sorely tempted to sleep with Eileen Wade.
              >
              > In earlier books, although he didn't act on them, Marlowe had what
              > were hardly "monkish" thoughts about a number of women: Vivian
              Regan
              > in THE BIG SLEEP; Mrs. Grayle in FAREWELL, MY LOVELY; Adrienne
              > Fromsett in THE LADY IN THE LAKE; and Mavis Weld in THE LITTLE
              > SISTER.
              >
              > --- In GAdetection@y..., "Xavier Lechard" <lechardxavier@h...>
              wrote:
              > Marlowe's sex life was near of a monk's until his
              > > last adventure, "Playback", in which Chandler finally allow him
              to
              > > biblically know a woman.
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