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El Alamein Sherman II

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  • GaDave
    Hello Sherman aficionados, I need help with my Dragon Models El Alamein Sherman 1/35 model build. Mainly I don t know which of the optional parts I should use.
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 2, 2013
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      Hello Sherman aficionados,

      I need help with my Dragon Models El Alamein Sherman 1/35 model build. Mainly I don't know which of the optional parts I should use. 
      It is very nice of Dragon to provide optional parts but they don't give you any advice on which ones you should choose. 

      But first a couple of questions about the markings and paint scheme.My plan is to build this tank of "B" squadron 3rd RTR. 
      [linked image] 
      This illustration is from the Bison Decals sheet (Which I am using) but differs slightly from the Dragon instructions. Dragon shows the red squares on the turret tilted forward while, 
      as you can see Bison suggest they are level. Which is correct? 
      Secondly, is the demarcation between the camo colours hard (brush painted) or soft (sprayed)? 
      I also note that Bison show this vehicle without the POL can rack on the left front fender and minus the .50cal mounted on the cupola. Does this match photos? 

      The optional parts are circled. 
      Which type of air intake(I think) should I use? F11 or F1? 
      [linked image] 

      The engine deck has depressions at the corners of the engine access doors. Dragon have parts to fill these. Which should I use? G14 or G13 or none or both? Frankly I'm confused. 
      You are also given the option of barrels, B10 and C26. Which one is correct? 
      Another option is for the antenna base parts. B8 or B32/33? 
      I am also wondering if I should add the straps on the rear of the turret box? 
      [linked image] 

      Finally, should I add the lifting loops on the suspension bogies? And If so should they face up or down? 
      [linked image] 

      Any other suggestions and points to make the model better would be appreciated. Thanks for taking a look at this and for any help you can offer. 

      Best, 
      David
      David Manley

      Sent from my iPad 2
      Atlanta, Georgia, USA 
    • Joe DeMarco
      Hi Dave, I consider decals & color drawings to be impressionism, not accurate historical reference. Would be curious to see a period photo that clearly shows
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 4, 2013
      Hi Dave,
       
      I consider decals & color drawings to be impressionism, not accurate historical reference.
       
      Would be curious to see a period photo that clearly shows T144895 painted on an M4A1.
       
      As far as the model goes, I have at least assembled the one in question, so have a few insights.
      The upper hull makes or breaks a Sherman kit (IMO) & I would give the Dragon a C. 
      The Tasca M4A1 DV is done with a little more finesse, but they flubbed the drivers' hatch area, so C +.
       
      Two companies provided the 200 or so early production M4A1s that the Brits got before El Alamein.
      Those made by Pressed Steel Car would have had riveted lower hulls as provided in the kits, & those made by Lima Locomotive would had welded lower hulls.
      Would guess they got slightly more Lima M4A1s which had rather complex tail lamp guards, while the PSCs do not appear to have been equipped with them at the time.
      The DML model's upper hull lifting rings are very nice recreations of what was typical of Lima Locomotive, although they seem a little large (1/32 scale?).
       I wanted to use Dragon's very nice riveted lower hull on their M4 DV, so did the M4A1 as a Lima, & substituted a welded lower hull from an old Dragon M4A1, since it has the appropriate "quarter round" contour where it joins to the belly plate.  
       
       
      The triangular shaped air scoops appear to have been a little more prevalent in period pix.
      I think they were fabricated by Chester Tank Depot, where most of the Alamein Shermans were processed.  
      I suspect the quarter round ones were done by Toledo TD.
      I used the quarter round ones because those kit parts are more accurate looking than the triangulars.  
       
      >The engine deck has depressions at the corners of the engine access doors. Dragon have parts to fill these. Which should I use? G14 or G13 or none or both? Frankly I'm confused. 
       
      Just flip a coin, since this is unlikely to be seen in any period photo.
      I filled in the rear ones, & left the front ones open.
      There's a very early Lima built M4A1 monument in France that has both front & rear open.
        
      Period pix show straight 75mm gun barrels.
         
      Suggest you add the rail shipping tie downs to the bogies for interest.
       
      Other suggestions...
       
      Mount the drivers' hatch handles toward the back of the hatches & on an angle.
       
      The lifting rings on the gun shield should be in the early position where they nearly touch the rotor shield.
      DML's rotor shield sits tight against the gun shield, whereas the real ones stood out a bit.
       
       
      The engine crank tool that DML provides comes with most of their Shermans.
      It represents a one piece extrusion that didn't appear in production until about mid 1943.
      The earlier ones were three piece affairs with square edges. Tasca provides a nice one.
       
      Optional, just for interest, I put a couple "pepperpot hole" blank off plates on either side of the engine access door in the rear.
       
      I've attached a couple pix.
       
      Enjoy the build,
       
      Joe
       
        
    • GaDave
      Hi Joe, Thanks so much for taking the time to give me your incites on the El Alamein Sherman. I ve read all the information on the build I could find on the
      Message 3 of 10 , Dec 4, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Joe,

        Thanks so much for taking the time to give me your incites on the El Alamein Sherman. I've read all the information on the build I could find on the web and none had your information. 

        Thanks again.

        Best regards,
        Dave

        David B. Manley, III, PC 
          Sent from my iPad 2
          Greater Atlanta Area 

        On Dec 4, 2013, at 10:43 AM, "Joe DeMarco" <snick13@...> wrote:

         

        Hi Dave,
         
        I consider decals & color drawings to be impressionism, not accurate historical reference.
         
        Would be curious to see a period photo that clearly shows T144895 painted on an M4A1.
         
        As far as the model goes, I have at least assembled the one in question, so have a few insights.
        The upper hull makes or breaks a Sherman kit (IMO) & I would give the Dragon a C. 
        The Tasca M4A1 DV is done with a little more finesse, but they flubbed the drivers' hatch area, so C +.
         
        Two companies provided the 200 or so early production M4A1s that the Brits got before El Alamein.
        Those made by Pressed Steel Car would have had riveted lower hulls as provided in the kits, & those made by Lima Locomotive would had welded lower hulls.
        Would guess they got slightly more Lima M4A1s which had rather complex tail lamp guards, while the PSCs do not appear to have been equipped with them at the time.
        The DML model's upper hull lifting rings are very nice recreations of what was typical of Lima Locomotive, although they seem a little large (1/32 scale?).
         I wanted to use Dragon's very nice riveted lower hull on their M4 DV, so did the M4A1 as a Lima, & substituted a welded lower hull from an old Dragon M4A1, since it has the appropriate "quarter round" contour where it joins to the belly plate.  
         
         
        The triangular shaped air scoops appear to have been a little more prevalent in period pix.
        I think they were fabricated by Chester Tank Depot, where most of the Alamein Shermans were processed.  
        I suspect the quarter round ones were done by Toledo TD.
        I used the quarter round ones because those kit parts are more accurate looking than the triangulars.  
         
        >The engine deck has depressions at the corners of the engine access doors. Dragon have parts to fill these. Which should I use? G14 or G13 or none or both? Frankly I'm confused. 
         
        Just flip a coin, since this is unlikely to be seen in any period photo.
        I filled in the rear ones, & left the front ones open.
        There's a very early Lima built M4A1 monument in France that has both front & rear open.
          
        Period pix show straight 75mm gun barrels.
           
        Suggest you add the rail shipping tie downs to the bogies for interest.
         
        Other suggestions...
         
        Mount the drivers' hatch handles toward the back of the hatches & on an angle.
         
        The lifting rings on the gun shield should be in the early position where they nearly touch the rotor shield.
        DML's rotor shield sits tight against the gun shield, whereas the real ones stood out a bit.
         
         
        The engine crank tool that DML provides comes with most of their Shermans.
        It represents a one piece extrusion that didn't appear in production until about mid 1943.
        The earlier ones were three piece affairs with square edges. Tasca provides a nice one.
         
        Optional, just for interest, I put a couple "pepperpot hole" blank off plates on either side of the engine access door in the rear.
         
        I've attached a couple pix.
         
        Enjoy the build,
         
        Joe
         
          

        <DML Brit M4A1 DV RF.jpg>
        <DML Brit M4A1 DV RR.jpg>
      • Joe DeMarco
        You re welcome. I can t recall, but if the directions have you adding any springs or other fittings to any of the hatches, ignore that. There are reports of
        Message 4 of 10 , Dec 5, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          You're welcome.
          I can't recall, but if the directions have you adding any springs or other fittings to any of the hatches, ignore that.
          There are reports of serious injuries from falling hatches among early Sherman tankers.
          The positive hatch lock mechanisms weren't introduced until the Spring of 1943.
           
          Joe

          From: GaDave
          Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 1:43 PM
          Subject: Re: [G104] El Alamein Sherman II

          Hi Joe,

          Thanks so much for taking the time to give me your incites on the El Alamein Sherman. I've read all the information on the build I could find on the web and none had your information. 

          Thanks again.

          Best regards,
          Dave

          David B. Manley, III, PC 
            Sent from my iPad 2
            Greater Atlanta Area 




        • dlevydo
          Hi Dave & Joe, I was in Egypt in 2000 and had a chance visit the El Alamein Military Museum. They had a Sherman there that I took a couple of pictures of
          Message 5 of 10 , Dec 5, 2013
          • 1 Attachment
          • 5.5 MB
          Hi Dave & Joe,
           
          I was in Egypt in 2000 and had a chance visit the El Alamein Military Museum.  They had a Sherman there that I took a couple of pictures of inside and out.  Not sure if they will help with modeling, but possibly just for interest. There were no markings on it.
           
          One is attached (it was my pre-digital camera days, so I took pictures of the pictures in an album).
           
          If you are interested in the others, let me know and I will forward them to you.
           
          Dave
           
          In a message dated 12/5/2013 9:49:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, snick13@... writes:
           

          You're welcome.
          I can't recall, but if the directions have you adding any springs or other fittings to any of the hatches, ignore that.
          There are reports of serious injuries from falling hatches among early Sherman tankers.
          The positive hatch lock mechanisms weren't introduced until the Spring of 1943.
           
          Joe

          From: GaDave
          Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 1:43 PM
          Subject: Re: [G104] El Alamein Sherman II

          Hi Joe,

          Thanks so much for taking the time to give me your incites on the El Alamein Sherman. I've read all the information on the build I could find on the web and none had your information. 

          Thanks again.

          Best regards,
          Dave

          David B. Manley, III, PC 
            Sent from my iPad 2
            Greater Atlanta Area 



          .

        • Joe DeMarco
          Hi Dave, The El Alamein Sherman looks to be a very early Pullman built M4A2. It has been extensively upgraded, or possibly remanufactured in the US in 1944,
          Message 6 of 10 , Dec 5, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Dave,
             
            The El Alamein Sherman looks to be a very early Pullman built M4A2. 
            It has been extensively upgraded, or possibly remanufactured in the US in 1944, and then sent to the Brits as Lend Lease.
            I wouldn't be surprised if that was originally built with M3 type bogies
            The "no pistol port" turret was intro'd in Fall of 1943, so definitely a replacement on a 1942 production tank.
             
            You were able to get inside?
            Was there a dataplate?
             
            Hope all's good with you.
             
            Joe

            Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 10:16 AM
            Subject: Re: [G104] El Alamein Sherman II [1 Attachment]

            Hi Dave & Joe,
             
            I was in Egypt in 2000 and had a chance visit the El Alamein Military Museum.  They had a Sherman there that I took a couple of pictures of inside and out.  Not sure if they will help with modeling, but possibly just for interest. There were no markings on it.
             
            One is attached (it was my pre-digital camera days, so I took pictures of the pictures in an album).
             
            If you are interested in the others, let me know and I will forward them to you.
             
            Dave
             
            In a message dated 12/5/2013 9:49:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, snick13@... writes:
             

            You're welcome.
            I can't recall, but if the directions have you adding any springs or other fittings to any of the hatches, ignore that.
            There are reports of serious injuries from falling hatches among early Sherman tankers.
            The positive hatch lock mechanisms weren't introduced until the Spring of 1943.
             
            Joe

            From: GaDave
            Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 1:43 PM
            Subject: Re: [G104] El Alamein Sherman II

            Hi Joe,

            Thanks so much for taking the time to give me your incites on the El Alamein Sherman. I've read all the information on the build I could find on the web and none had your information. 

            Thanks again.

            Best regards,
            Dave

            David B. Manley, III, PC 
              Sent from my iPad 2
              Greater Atlanta Area 



            .

          • dlevydo
            Hi Joe, Tough to read, but here it is. I ll send you the other pictures with wetransfer.com (big files) Dave In a message dated 12/5/2013 10:47:17 A.M. Eastern
            Message 7 of 10 , Dec 5, 2013
            • 1 Attachment
            • 5.4 MB
            Hi Joe,
             
            Tough to read, but here it is. I'll send you the other pictures with wetransfer.com (big files)
             
            Dave
             
            In a message dated 12/5/2013 10:47:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, snick13@... writes:
             

            Hi Dave,
             
            The El Alamein Sherman looks to be a very early Pullman built M4A2. 
            It has been extensively upgraded, or possibly remanufactured in the US in 1944, and then sent to the Brits as Lend Lease.
            I wouldn't be surprised if that was originally built with M3 type bogies
            The "no pistol port" turret was intro'd in Fall of 1943, so definitely a replacement on a 1942 production tank.
             
            You were able to get inside?
            Was there a dataplate?
             
            Hope all's good with you.
             
            Joe

            Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 10:16 AM
            Subject: Re: [G104] El Alamein Sherman II [1 Attachment]

            Hi Dave & Joe,
             
            I was in Egypt in 2000 and had a chance visit the El Alamein Military Museum.  They had a Sherman there that I took a couple of pictures of inside and out.  Not sure if they will help with modeling, but possibly just for interest. There were no markings on it.
             
            One is attached (it was my pre-digital camera days, so I took pictures of the pictures in an album).
             
            If you are interested in the others, let me know and I will forward them to you.
             
            Dave
             
            In a message dated 12/5/2013 9:49:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, snick13@... writes:
             

            You're welcome.
            I can't recall, but if the directions have you adding any springs or other fittings to any of the hatches, ignore that.
            There are reports of serious injuries from falling hatches among early Sherman tankers.
            The positive hatch lock mechanisms weren't introduced until the Spring of 1943.
             
            Joe

            From: GaDave
            Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 1:43 PM
            Subject: Re: [G104] El Alamein Sherman II

            Hi Joe,

            Thanks so much for taking the time to give me your incites on the El Alamein Sherman. I've read all the information on the build I could find on the web and none had your information. 

            Thanks again.

            Best regards,
            Dave

            David B. Manley, III, PC 
              Sent from my iPad 2
              Greater Atlanta Area 



            .

          • Joe DeMarco
            Thanks, Dave! I m a bit of a Sherman nerd, and am excited to see that that looks to be the original Pullman Standard Car Co. dataplate. You can see Standard
            Message 8 of 10 , Dec 5, 2013
            Thanks, Dave!
            I'm a bit of a Sherman nerd, and am excited to see that that looks to be the original Pullman Standard Car Co. dataplate.
            You can see "Standard" on the third line, & "1942" is stamped in the box on the bottom left.
            I think their dataplates might have been made of cast brass in the early days, which holds up nicely as opposed to the later ones made of low quality metal.
            Many surviving examples of those are rusted unreadable.
             
            I've attached a period photo of a Pullman dataplate.
            The tank serial number is stamped in the box in the upper right.
            This one was 908, the fourth Sherman made by Pullman.
            Too bad the number can't be read on the El Alamein.
            I'm thinking it would be in the 9XX or 10XX range.
            Pierre-Olivier & I haven't been able to find the serial number stamped anywhere on the exterior of any of the few Pullmans we have been able to examine.
            We think they may have stamped a build sequence number into the upper rear hull plate, but we would need to find a few examples with known good serial numbers to confirm that.
             
            A lot of surviving Shermans have remanufacturer dataplates.
            I would think that if that tank had been remanufactured in the US, Fisher Body or Federal Machine would have replaced the original plate, but it's not like there are any examples out there to study.
            Don't believe any of those gun travel locks were ever shipped overseas as mods, so how that got on there...
            Would guess the three piece diff came off an M4A4.
            The serial number of the tank it came from might be stamped on the front towing lugs.
            That M4A2 might have been built with a 3-piece, but I doubt if it would have had the "lips" in front of the top bolt strip.  
            It's hard to study the M4A2s since most of them "disappeared" to Lend Lease.
            The spare tracks are blocking the view, but I think that one might have the most elaborate glacis pattern seen on a welded hull Sherman, with a record 8 sections, including the drivers' hoods.
            I've attached a factory shot of one that appears to be an 8 section.
            The "133" painted on the side might be the build sequence number.
            If so, the tank would have been accepted in July 1942.
             
            Greatly appreciate the digital tour, Dave!
             
             
            Joe 
             
             
             
             
             

            Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 10:56 AM
            Subject: Re: [G104] El Alamein Sherman II [1 Attachment]

            Hi Joe,
             
            Tough to read, but here it is. I'll send you the other pictures with wetransfer.com (big files)
             
            Dave
             
            In a message dated 12/5/2013 10:47:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, snick13@... writes:
             

            Hi Dave,
             
            The El Alamein Sherman looks to be a very early Pullman built M4A2. 
            It has been extensively upgraded, or possibly remanufactured in the US in 1944, and then sent to the Brits as Lend Lease.
            I wouldn't be surprised if that was originally built with M3 type bogies
            The "no pistol port" turret was intro'd in Fall of 1943, so definitely a replacement on a 1942 production tank.
             
            You were able to get inside?
            Was there a dataplate?
             
            Hope all's good with you.
             
            Joe

            Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 10:16 AM
            Subject: Re: [G104] El Alamein Sherman II [1 Attachment]

            Hi Dave & Joe,
             
            I was in Egypt in 2000 and had a chance visit the El Alamein Military Museum.  They had a Sherman there that I took a couple of pictures of inside and out.  Not sure if they will help with modeling, but possibly just for interest. There were no markings on it.
             
            One is attached (it was my pre-digital camera days, so I took pictures of the pictures in an album).
             
            If you are interested in the others, let me know and I will forward them to you.
             
            Dave
             
             
          • GaDave
            Thanks, again, Joe. Another good point. You are a fount of Sherman info! Best, Dave David B. Manley, III, PC Sent from my iPad 2 Greater Atlanta Area
            Message 9 of 10 , Dec 5, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks, again, Joe. Another good point. You are a fount of Sherman info!

              Best,
              Dave

              David B. Manley, III, PC 
                Sent from my iPad 2
                Greater Atlanta Area 

              On Dec 5, 2013, at 9:49 AM, "Joe DeMarco" <snick13@...> wrote:

               

              You're welcome.
              I can't recall, but if the directions have you adding any springs or other fittings to any of the hatches, ignore that.
              There are reports of serious injuries from falling hatches among early Sherman tankers.
              The positive hatch lock mechanisms weren't introduced until the Spring of 1943.
               
              Joe

              From: GaDave
              Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 1:43 PM
              Subject: Re: [G104] El Alamein Sherman II

              Hi Joe,

              Thanks so much for taking the time to give me your incites on the El Alamein Sherman. I've read all the information on the build I could find on the web and none had your information. 

              Thanks again.

              Best regards,
              Dave

              David B. Manley, III, PC 
                Sent from my iPad 2
                Greater Atlanta Area 




            • GaDave
              Hi, Dave. Very interesting. Thanks for the photos. Yes, I d like to see the other photos. Kind regards, Dave David B. Manley, III, PC Sent from my iPad 2
              Message 10 of 10 , Dec 5, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi, Dave.

                Very interesting. Thanks for the photos. Yes, I'd like to see the other photos. 

                Kind regards,
                Dave

                David B. Manley, III, PC 
                  Sent from my iPad 2
                  Greater Atlanta Area 

                On Dec 5, 2013, at 10:16 AM, dlevydo@... wrote:

                 

                Hi Dave & Joe,
                 
                I was in Egypt in 2000 and had a chance visit the El Alamein Military Museum.  They had a Sherman there that I took a couple of pictures of inside and out.  Not sure if they will help with modeling, but possibly just for interest. There were no markings on it.
                 
                One is attached (it was my pre-digital camera days, so I took pictures of the pictures in an album).
                 
                If you are interested in the others, let me know and I will forward them to you.
                 
                Dave
                 
                In a message dated 12/5/2013 9:49:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, snick13@... writes:
                 

                You're welcome.
                I can't recall, but if the directions have you adding any springs or other fittings to any of the hatches, ignore that.
                There are reports of serious injuries from falling hatches among early Sherman tankers.
                The positive hatch lock mechanisms weren't introduced until the Spring of 1943.
                 
                Joe

                From: GaDave
                Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 1:43 PM
                Subject: Re: [G104] El Alamein Sherman II

                Hi Joe,

                Thanks so much for taking the time to give me your incites on the El Alamein Sherman. I've read all the information on the build I could find on the web and none had your information. 

                Thanks again.

                Best regards,
                Dave

                David B. Manley, III, PC 
                  Sent from my iPad 2
                  Greater Atlanta Area 



                .

                <P1050219.JPG>
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