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Re: [G104] Historic Sherman from TF Baum to be Preserved

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  • Joe DeMarco
    ... The extensive stencils on the differential housing are not typical of WW II Shermans. The bottom part has something about the Batteries [are] Dry. The top
    Message 1 of 8 , May 11, 2013
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      >Does anyone have a reference to what these stencils would have said?

      The extensive stencils on the differential housing are not typical of WW II
      Shermans.
      The bottom part has something about the Batteries [are] Dry.

      The top part is probably shipping code.
      If you can see "ORD II," there should be a 4 letter code before that which
      would indicate the port to which it was sent.

      To give you an idea of the stencils, I've attached a photo dated May 1956 of
      an MDAP M41 arriving at Bremerhaven.
      Just visible is "CLAY" which I would assume was the code for Bremerhaven.

      Just curious, is the smoke mortar hole on the left front of the turret
      welded up on that?

      I corresponded with a gent about Target 25 a few years back.
      He couldn't find the tank's serial number or anything conclusive that would
      indicate when it was built.
      Have you been able to find that since?

      It wouldn't be my intention to burst anyone's bubble, but I suspect the
      assault guns lost by TF Baum would have been M4(105)s with VVSS.

      Joe



      --------------------------------------------------
      From: <HL.Spoelstra@...>
      Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:58 AM
      To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: RE: [G104] Historic Sherman from TF Baum to be Preserved

      > Shawn,
      >
      > Here you go. You will notice it is in a typically ex-range condition,
      > nowhere near the condition Cobra King was in before being restored. BTW, I
      > think they did an excellent job on its restoration and I hope the TF Baum
      > Sherman is preserved rather than restored (after which it will look like
      > just another Sherman...)
      >
      > Regards,
      > Hanno
      >
      >
      > Op Za, 11 mei, 2013 2:30 pm schreef Shawn Ferguson:
      >> Wish I could see the pics. Sadly though, I think this restoration will be
      >> more complete than Cobra King's.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> To: G104@yahoogroups.com
      >> From: HL.Spoelstra@...
      >> Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 14:18:03 +0200
      >> Subject: [G104] Historic Sherman from TF Baum to be Preserved
      >>
      >>
      >> See
      > http://www.com-central.net/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=16002:
      >>
      >> QUOTE
      >>
      >> This hulk of a 105mm howitzer armed Sherman, which was apparently one of
      >> the three such SP arty vehicles attached to Task Force Baum when they
      >> unsuccessfully attempted to liberate the POW camp at Hammelburg, Germany,
      >> in late March 1945, is now at a museum. This hulk was found on the
      >> ranges at
      >> Hammelburg training area several years ago and it appeared on the cover
      >> of the "After the Battle" magazine about TF Baum (issue 91). After that,
      >> it was
      >> no longer used as a hard target and was moved to the site of TF Baum's
      >> last stand (still within the training area).
      >>
      >> In March, the hulk was finally moved to a museum for preservation (they
      >> are
      >> even talking about eventual restoration). The front cover still retains
      >> original stenciling - it's hard to read and I'm not a Sherman researcher,
      >> but it says something about closing the drain plugs. (Does anyone have a
      >> reference to what these stencils would have said?)
      >>
      >> This tank was commanded by T/Sgt. Charles Graham of the 10th Armored
      >> Infantry (acting platoon leader). It was apparently knocked out by a
      >> Hetzer
      >> tank destroyer when TF Baum was surrounded and overrun.
      >>
      >> The tank is now located at the Deutsch-Amerikanisches Nachkriegsmuseum in
      >> Rütschenhausen, near Schweinfurt.
      >> http://www.nachkriegsmuseum.de/wb/pages/startseite.php
      >>
      >> UNQUOTE
      >
      >
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    • Hanno Spoelstra
      ... Hello Joe, Thanks for your extensive insight. I did not see this Sherman tank in person nor did I make the photos, I just forwarded the message from the
      Message 2 of 8 , May 12, 2013
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        At 16:03 11-5-2013 -0400, Joe DeMarco wrote:
        >I corresponded with a gent about Target 25 a few years back.
        >He couldn't find the tank's serial number or anything conclusive that would
        >indicate when it was built.
        >Have you been able to find that since?
        >
        >It wouldn't be my intention to burst anyone's bubble, but I suspect the
        >assault guns lost by TF Baum would have been M4(105)s with VVSS.

        Hello Joe,

        Thanks for your extensive insight. I did not see this Sherman tank in person
        nor did I make the photos, I just forwarded the message from the AFV News forum.

        Years ago I searched for every picture I could find of Sherman 105-mm
        howitzer tanks used on the Hammelburg raid. IIRC, none of them showed the
        M4A3(105) HVSS. A picture search is not research, but I am also not
        convinced yet this Sherman is a genuine TF Baum one.

        We'll keep looking, before we know it we will find another lost identity
        like Cobra King's!

        Regards,
        Hanno


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      • Dan
        Hanno, Do you have pictures of TF Baum? My grandfather was a Staff Sargent on that raid. Also that leads to the story of him being captured. Just recently put
        Message 3 of 8 , May 13, 2013
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          Hanno,

          Do you have pictures of TF Baum? My grandfather was a Staff Sargent on that raid. Also that leads to the story of him being captured. Just recently put some various info together and realized he was one of the chosen few for that fun run.... Thanks for any other leads for TF Baum

          --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, Hanno Spoelstra <HL.Spoelstra@...> wrote:
          >
          > See http://www.com-central.net/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=16002:
          >
          > QUOTE
          >
          > This hulk of a 105mm howitzer armed Sherman, which was apparently one of the
          > three such SP arty vehicles attached to Task Force Baum when they
          > unsuccessfully attempted to liberate the POW camp at Hammelburg, Germany, in
          > late March 1945, is now at a museum. This hulk was found on the ranges at
          > Hammelburg training area several years ago and it appeared on the cover of
          > the "After the Battle" magazine about TF Baum (issue 91). After that, it was
          > no longer used as a hard target and was moved to the site of TF Baum's last
          > stand (still within the training area).
          >
          > In March, the hulk was finally moved to a museum for preservation (they are
          > even talking about eventual restoration). The front cover still retains
          > original stenciling - it's hard to read and I'm not a Sherman researcher,
          > but it says something about closing the drain plugs. (Does anyone have a
          > reference to what these stencils would have said?)
          >
          > This tank was commanded by T/Sgt. Charles Graham of the 10th Armored
          > Infantry (acting platoon leader). It was apparently knocked out by a Hetzer
          > tank destroyer when TF Baum was surrounded and overrun.
          >
          > The tank is now located at the Deutsch-Amerikanisches Nachkriegsmuseum in
          > Rütschenhausen, near Schweinfurt.
          > http://www.nachkriegsmuseum.de/wb/pages/startseite.php
          >
          > UNQUOTE
          > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
          > PLEASE NOTE: this e-mail address will be phased out - please use
          >
          > <mcspool@...>
          >
          > from now on
          > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
          >
        • Hanno Spoelstra
          ... raid. Also that leads to the story of him being captured. Just recently put some various info together and realized he was one of the chosen few for that
          Message 4 of 8 , May 20, 2013
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            At 04:55 14-5-2013 -0000, Dan wrote:
            >Hanno,
            >
            >Do you have pictures of TF Baum? My grandfather was a Staff Sargent on that
            raid. Also that leads to the story of him being captured. Just recently put
            some various info together and realized he was one of the chosen few for
            that fun run.... Thanks for any other leads for TF Baum
            >

            Hello Dan,

            What I did was looking up pictures on the internet and in printed
            publications. Sorry, I did not document my search.

            Do you have After The Battle Magazine issue No. 91 on the Hammelburg Raid?

            Regards,
            Hanno

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          • Joe DeMarco
            Dan, what is your Grandfather s name? I corresponded with someone about Target 25 a few years back. We may have had some language barrier issues, but IIRC, he
            Message 5 of 8 , May 20, 2013
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              Dan, what is your Grandfather's name?

              I corresponded with someone about Target 25 a few years back.
              We may have had some language barrier issues, but IIRC, he said the rear tow
              lugs were shot off and no dataplate, etc.

              I've since seen the serial number stamped outside the dataplate frame on a
              few Chrysler built Shermans, so that might be a possibilty for finding it on
              Target 25.
              I would think that if the serial number is higher than the 58xxx range,
              chances would be pretty slim that it is a relic of TF Baum.

              Joe

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "Hanno Spoelstra" <HL.Spoelstra@...>
              Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 10:12 AM
              To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>; <G104@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [G104] Re: Historic Sherman from TF Baum to be Preserved

              > At 04:55 14-5-2013 -0000, Dan wrote:
              >>Hanno,
              >>
              >>Do you have pictures of TF Baum? My grandfather was a Staff Sargent on
              >>that
              > raid. Also that leads to the story of him being captured. Just recently
              > put
              > some various info together and realized he was one of the chosen few for
              > that fun run.... Thanks for any other leads for TF Baum
              >>
              >
              > Hello Dan,
              >
              > What I did was looking up pictures on the internet and in printed
              > publications. Sorry, I did not document my search.
              >
              > Do you have After The Battle Magazine issue No. 91 on the Hammelburg Raid?
              >
              > Regards,
              > Hanno
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