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Re: [G104] Emailing: scan0006

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  • dale jongquist
    Hi: Don t think we got 2nd AD units. We did not get any M26s.(I never did see one) We got M32s, M24s and a mixture of M4s. 76s on M4A3E8s, 75s on Cast hulls
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 18, 2012
      Hi:
      Don't think we got 2nd AD units. We did not get any M26s.(I never did see one) We got M32s, M24s and a mixture of M4s. 76s on M4A3E8s, 75s on Cast hulls and welded hulls, narrow and wide tracks and Ford and Radial engines. They brought them in from someplace. Do not remember any markings. Not all were running and most needed work.
      Had my 6 weeks of basic in C Co then sent to HQ Co for advanced basic. In about 2 weeks those of us who were to be mechanics.were put to work in motor pool. Were told (get them working as we have people coming soon.) They had Basic elsewhere then here for tank training. Most of rest of basic for us was done on paper.( We did pretty good concerning we were all new draftees without any experienced leaders to lean on.)
       
      This was all at North camp. Latrines and offices only buildings. Barracks and Mess Hall Squad tents on a 2x4 frame on a cement slab. Motor pool was a dirt field with a small tent for tools and workshop. Later we moved to South camp with all buildings and real Motor pool. Eventually got to Fort Knox Armored school but that is another story.
      Sorry about running on. Remember this was 61 years ago so memory is not the best.  Will look up some pics.  Dale
    • Michael Lembo
      Hi Joe,     We had a few weeks of heavy rain here in Germany which put a damper on my Forensic Armorology as I m calling it now, but I was able to get back
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 23, 2012
        Hi Joe,
            We had a few weeks of heavy rain here in Germany which put a damper on my Forensic Armorology as I'm calling it now, but I was able to get back to Graf today and confirm numbers on the M4A1(76) at the NCO Academy there.  I found the build number on the left rear. Looks like 3789 to me.  I can confirm that the serial number of the whole tank is 37903, not just the transmission housing. That number is also stamped in the data plate frame. It was hard to get a clear photo, the "9" is not very well stamped but I could see it clearly when I was in there. The  upper hull casting is dated 11-43.  So does all that add up to be the 3rd 76mm gunned Sherman built?  It has some odd scars on the hull sides also, looks like it may have had the extra armor plates there and they were removed when it was finished as a wet stowage tank.
         
          I know it is off topic, but I don't think there is a group for M47's. Graf has M47 serial number 5 on display. Sounds strange, but there is just a number "5" stamped into the top of both front tow hook lugs.  It has turret serial number 80, which makes sense, because the lower number turrets would have been on T42 prototypes.  It also is the only one I ever saw with the mounting rack on the rear hull for the Russian style external fuel tanks. If anyone wants photos just email me and let me know how much you want to see (I did not go inside yet)   I am getting problems from yahoo again with sending photos, so I will have to try sending them out later.
         
          Much more data on the dozer M4A3 in Graf to follow,
         
        Michael
         

        From: Joe DeMarco <snick13@...>
        To: G104@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 9:57 PM
        Subject: Re: [G104] Emailing: scan0006

         
        Hi Dale
         
        Thanks for including the photo of your retriever!
        I like to keep a record of Serial Numbers and/or USA Numbers with as much info as possible.
        Were you with the 2nd Armored Division? Do you recall the exact unit you served with at Ft Hood?
        And what was the name of your M32B1?  MOLE?
         
        In most cases, the USA Number was changed to begin with "40" when a Sherman was converted to retriever.
        However, that was one of the examples where the original tank Registration Number was retained.
        USA 3037290 indicates that the original M4A1 was made by Pressed Steel Car in June 1943.
        Most likely, it never left the US during WW II.
        I have in my notes that it was serving as a training tank at Ft Knox in Feb, 1944.
        It was probably remanufactured & converted to M32B1 in late 1944 / early 1945.
         
        Regards,
         
        Joe
         
         
         
         
         

        Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 2:39 PM
        Subject: [G104] Emailing: scan0006

        
        Thought you folks might enjoy this. I took this picture in April 1952 during the Longhorn Maneuvers at Fort Hood Texas. By the way, never saw or even heard of that English Jack. We had floor jacks in motor pool and hydraulic bottle jacks which we could carry in Retriever. Man in picture was turret mech. and I was track veh. mech.  Dale




      • Joe DeMarco
        Hi Michael, Thanks for the report! It s always helpful to find data from a surviving Sherman from the start or stop of a serial number number range, or at a
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 23, 2012
          Hi Michael,
           
          Thanks for the report!
          It's always helpful to find data from a surviving Sherman from the start or stop of a serial number number range, or at a transition point like change from 75mm to 76mm.
           
          >I can confirm that the serial number of the whole tank is 37903
           
          Excellent! It's been very difficult to get Ordnance Serial Numbers from Pressed Steel Car Shermans, since they didn't stamp it anywhere on the exterior like a lot of the other companies did.
           
          >I found the build number on the left rear. Looks like 3789 to me.
           
          A total of 3700 M4A1(75)s were accepted from Pressed Steel Car. 
          From recording build number info, I have interpolated that the last one, S/N 37899 would have had a build number around 3763.
          Just guessing what that might mean is that they had to reject or otherwise not use about 63 upper hulls on the way to producing 3700 M4A1(75)s.
           
          Anyway, I continued with my interpolation by thinking that the first M4A1(76) S/N 37900 would have had a build number of 3764.
          So, if S/N 37903 is build number 3789, I wasn't too far off.
          A lot of times, an owner will be able to find only the build number on a PSC M4A1, & with just that, I think the best one can come up with is a USA Number that is within - / + 100 of the real thing.
           
          >The upper hull casting is dated 11-43.
           
          Very good. I assume the upper hull has the General Steel logo on the front, since they included a date in their casting info, whereas the other company that made cast hulls did not.
          That tank would have been accepted a couple months later in Jan. 1944.
           
          >It has some odd scars on the hull sides also, looks like it may have had the extra armor plates there and they were removed when it was finished as a wet stowage tank.
           
          Yes, I noticed the roughness in a couple of the pix you sent. I suspect on the early ones, all they did was knock the cast in bumps off the sides of the E8550 (75mm, dry stowage, big hatch) hull mold to come up with the E8595, 76mm, wet stowage mold.
          Here's a shot of S/N 37914 / USA 3070511. You can see this has the General Steel logo on the front, & appears to have that same horizontal running roughness on the side as on 37903. I would assume the upper hulls came from the same mold.  Your tank was obviously rebuilt. It would have looked more like 37914 when it first rolled off the line. The suspension components it has now appear to be replacements, but the "ventless" Union Steel turret # 34 is certainly appropriate, if not the original. Note that there is no turret serial number visible on the side of 37914. I suspect they only put the S/N on the roof of the early ones, so would be very surprised if you find it under the spare tracks on the Graf.
           
          Some of the early M4A1(76)s have been seen with the earlier "Mary Ann" differential housing with the cast in steps on the towing points. What does 37903 have?
           
          Thanks again for giving a close look to that one!
           
          Joe
           

          Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 2:10 PM
          Subject: [G104] M4A1 No.37903

          Hi Joe,
              We had a few weeks of heavy rain here in Germany which put a damper on my Forensic Armorology as I'm calling it now, but I was able to get back to Graf today and confirm numbers on the M4A1(76) at the NCO Academy there.  I found the build number on the left rear. Looks like 3789 to me.  I can confirm that the serial number of the whole tank is 37903, not just the transmission housing. That number is also stamped in the data plate frame. It was hard to get a clear photo, the "9" is not very well stamped but I could see it clearly when I was in there. The  upper hull casting is dated 11-43.  So does all that add up to be the 3rd 76mm gunned Sherman built?  It has some odd scars on the hull sides also, looks like it may have had the extra armor plates there and they were removed when it was finished as a wet stowage tank.
           
            I know it is off topic, but I don't think there is a group for M47's. Graf has M47 serial number 5 on display. Sounds strange, but there is just a number "5" stamped into the top of both front tow hook lugs.  It has turret serial number 80, which makes sense, because the lower number turrets would have been on T42 prototypes.  It also is the only one I ever saw with the mounting rack on the rear hull for the Russian style external fuel tanks. If anyone wants photos just email me and let me know how much you want to see (I did not go inside yet)   I am getting problems from yahoo again with sending photos, so I will have to try sending them out later.
           
            Much more data on the dozer M4A3 in Graf to follow,
           
          Michael
           

           
        • Michael Lembo
          Hi Joe,     This is the tank with turret serial number 34 I had mentioned after my first visit to it. Here is a photo from the front, it is a General Steel
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 23, 2012
            Hi Joe, 
               This is the tank with turret serial number 34 I had mentioned after my first visit to it. Here is a photo from the front, it is a General Steel casting (We had the same logo on our M60A3's in the OPFOR here in the 90's). I did not get a close photo of the steps on the tow hook lugs, but in this photo it looks like it is just a welded on strip, the right side one is missing. 
               Someone was trying to get that tank running, probably many years ago now. It has two modern 24 volt batteries, the same ones in Hummvees and M1 tanks, sitting in the battery compartment with cables partially attached and is missing some pieces from the radial engine.  Also, here is a photo of the build number.  I am going to have to remove all the paint in that back corner on the M4A1 in Hohenfels with turret number 277 to see if I can find it's build number. It has so many layers of paint on it that nothing shows through. I know exactly where to look now though.
             
            Michael

            From: Joe DeMarco <snick13@...>
            To: G104@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:46 PM
            Subject: Re: [G104] M4A1 No.37903

             
            Hi Michael,
             
            Thanks for the report!
            It's always helpful to find data from a surviving Sherman from the start or stop of a serial number number range, or at a transition point like change from 75mm to 76mm.
             
            >I can confirm that the serial number of the whole tank is 37903
             
            Excellent! It's been very difficult to get Ordnance Serial Numbers from Pressed Steel Car Shermans, since they didn't stamp it anywhere on the exterior like a lot of the other companies did.
             
            >I found the build number on the left rear. Looks like 3789 to me.
             
            A total of 3700 M4A1(75)s were accepted from Pressed Steel Car. 
            From recording build number info, I have interpolated that the last one, S/N 37899 would have had a build number around 3763.
            Just guessing what that might mean is that they had to reject or otherwise not use about 63 upper hulls on the way to producing 3700 M4A1(75)s.
             
            Anyway, I continued with my interpolation by thinking that the first M4A1(76) S/N 37900 would have had a build number of 3764.
            So, if S/N 37903 is build number 3789, I wasn't too far off.
            A lot of times, an owner will be able to find only the build number on a PSC M4A1, & with just that, I think the best one can come up with is a USA Number that is within - / + 100 of the real thing.
             
            >The upper hull casting is dated 11-43.
             
            Very good. I assume the upper hull has the General Steel logo on the front, since they included a date in their casting info, whereas the other company that made cast hulls did not.
            That tank would have been accepted a couple months later in Jan. 1944.
             
            >It has some odd scars on the hull sides also, looks like it may have had the extra armor plates there and they were removed when it was finished as a wet stowage tank.
             
            Yes, I noticed the roughness in a couple of the pix you sent. I suspect on the early ones, all they did was knock the cast in bumps off the sides of the E8550 (75mm, dry stowage, big hatch) hull mold to come up with the E8595, 76mm, wet stowage mold.
            Here's a shot of S/N 37914 / USA 3070511. You can see this has the General Steel logo on the front, & appears to have that same horizontal running roughness on the side as on 37903. I would assume the upper hulls came from the same mold.  Your tank was obviously rebuilt. It would have looked more like 37914 when it first rolled off the line. The suspension components it has now appear to be replacements, but the "ventless" Union Steel turret # 34 is certainly appropriate, if not the original. Note that there is no turret serial number visible on the side of 37914. I suspect they only put the S/N on the roof of the early ones, so would be very surprised if you find it under the spare tracks on the Graf.
             
            Some of the early M4A1(76)s have been seen with the earlier "Mary Ann" differential housing with the cast in steps on the towing points. What does 37903 have?
             
            Thanks again for giving a close look to that one!
             
            Joe
             

            Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 2:10 PM
            Subject: [G104] M4A1 No.37903

            Hi Joe,
                We had a few weeks of heavy rain here in Germany which put a damper on my Forensic Armorology as I'm calling it now, but I was able to get back to Graf today and confirm numbers on the M4A1(76) at the NCO Academy there.  I found the build number on the left rear. Looks like 3789 to me.  I can confirm that the serial number of the whole tank is 37903, not just the transmission housing. That number is also stamped in the data plate frame. It was hard to get a clear photo, the "9" is not very well stamped but I could see it clearly when I was in there. The  upper hull casting is dated 11-43.  So does all that add up to be the 3rd 76mm gunned Sherman built?  It has some odd scars on the hull sides also, looks like it may have had the extra armor plates there and they were removed when it was finished as a wet stowage tank.
             
              I know it is off topic, but I don't think there is a group for M47's. Graf has M47 serial number 5 on display. Sounds strange, but there is just a number "5" stamped into the top of both front tow hook lugs.  It has turret serial number 80, which makes sense, because the lower number turrets would have been on T42 prototypes.  It also is the only one I ever saw with the mounting rack on the rear hull for the Russian style external fuel tanks. If anyone wants photos just email me and let me know how much you want to see (I did not go inside yet)   I am getting problems from yahoo again with sending photos, so I will have to try sending them out later.
             
              Much more data on the dozer M4A3 in Graf to follow,
             
            Michael
             

             


          • Joe DeMarco
            Hi Michael, ... Yes, that has the final towing point configuration, which didn t interfere with the operation of the quick release towing shackles, whereas the
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 24, 2012
              Hi Michael,
               
              >but in this photo it looks like it is just a welded on strip, the right side one is missing.
               
              Yes, that has the final towing point configuration, which didn't interfere with the operation of the quick release towing shackles, whereas the ones with the cast in steps did.
              Most of the M24s & M26s around you would have been built with the quick release as opposed to the earlier U-shaped jobs.
               
              >Someone was trying to get that tank running, probably many years ago now
               
              I doubt S/N 37903 ever left the US during WW II.
              Would guess it was remanufactured in the early 1950s & sent to the French as MDAP.
              The French dropped out of NATO in a snit, & the US Army probably inherited that tank back when the French left their occupation bases in Germany.
               
              >Also, here is a photo of the build number.
               
              Thanks. Just because of my earlier guess, I was wondering if it could have been 3769, but no doubt about it - it's 3789.
               
              >the M4A1 in Hohenfels with turret number 277 to see if I can find it's build number.
               
              Good luck.
               
              The next build number I have recorded after 3789 is 3904 from the M4A1(76) on display in La Roche en Ardennes.
              Unfortunately, the guys never found a Serial or Reg Number on that.
              I'm sure "time stopped" for that tank in Europe sometime during WW II.
              With US turret serial number 202, I was thinking it was about the 200th M4A1(76), but subtracting 3904 from 3789, reckon it could have been around the 115th?
              A lot of these first Production Order M4A1(76)s were sent to the ETO & served to VE Day.
              They suffered pretty heavy attrition. I have about 100 historical listings for them.
              Sorry no S/N on the La Roche; seems likely it was a 2nd or 3rd AD battle casualty.
               
              FWIW, the next one after 37903 was listed as a combat casualty (repairable) of the 33rd AR / 3 AD on 8/13/44.
               
              Joe
               
               
               

              Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:21 PM
              Subject: Re: [G104] M4A1 No.37903

              Hi Joe, 
                 This is the tank with turret serial number 34 I had mentioned after my first visit to it. Here is a photo from the front, it is a General Steel casting (We had the same logo on our M60A3's in the OPFOR here in the 90's). I did not get a close photo of the steps on the tow hook lugs, but in this photo it looks like it is just a welded on strip, the right side one is missing. 
                 Someone was trying to get that tank running, probably many years ago now. It has two modern 24 volt batteries, the same ones in Hummvees and M1 tanks, sitting in the battery compartment with cables partially attached and is missing some pieces from the radial engine.  Also, here is a photo of the build number.  I am going to have to remove all the paint in that back corner on the M4A1 in Hohenfels with turret number 277 to see if I can find it's build number. It has so many layers of paint on it that nothing shows through. I know exactly where to look now though.
               
              Michael

              From: Joe DeMarco <snick13@...>
              To: G104@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:46 PM
              Subject: Re: [G104] M4A1 No.37903

               
              Hi Michael,
               
              Thanks for the report!
              It's always helpful to find data from a surviving Sherman from the start or stop of a serial number number range, or at a transition point like change from 75mm to 76mm.
               
              >I can confirm that the serial number of the whole tank is 37903
               
              Excellent! It's been very difficult to get Ordnance Serial Numbers from Pressed Steel Car Shermans, since they didn't stamp it anywhere on the exterior like a lot of the other companies did.
               
              >I found the build number on the left rear. Looks like 3789 to me.
               
              A total of 3700 M4A1(75)s were accepted from Pressed Steel Car. 
              From recording build number info, I have interpolated that the last one, S/N 37899 would have had a build number around 3763.
              Just guessing what that might mean is that they had to reject or otherwise not use about 63 upper hulls on the way to producing 3700 M4A1(75)s.
               
              Anyway, I continued with my interpolation by thinking that the first M4A1(76) S/N 37900 would have had a build number of 3764.
              So, if S/N 37903 is build number 3789, I wasn't too far off.
              A lot of times, an owner will be able to find only the build number on a PSC M4A1, & with just that, I think the best one can come up with is a USA Number that is within - / + 100 of the real thing.
               
              >The upper hull casting is dated 11-43.
               
              Very good. I assume the upper hull has the General Steel logo on the front, since they included a date in their casting info, whereas the other company that made cast hulls did not.
              That tank would have been accepted a couple months later in Jan. 1944.
               
              >It has some odd scars on the hull sides also, looks like it may have had the extra armor plates there and they were removed when it was finished as a wet stowage tank.
               
              Yes, I noticed the roughness in a couple of the pix you sent. I suspect on the early ones, all they did was knock the cast in bumps off the sides of the E8550 (75mm, dry stowage, big hatch) hull mold to come up with the E8595, 76mm, wet stowage mold.
              Here's a shot of S/N 37914 / USA 3070511. You can see this has the General Steel logo on the front, & appears to have that same horizontal running roughness on the side as on 37903. I would assume the upper hulls came from the same mold.  Your tank was obviously rebuilt. It would have looked more like 37914 when it first rolled off the line. The suspension components it has now appear to be replacements, but the "ventless" Union Steel turret # 34 is certainly appropriate, if not the original. Note that there is no turret serial number visible on the side of 37914. I suspect they only put the S/N on the roof of the early ones, so would be very surprised if you find it under the spare tracks on the Graf.
               
              Some of the early M4A1(76)s have been seen with the earlier "Mary Ann" differential housing with the cast in steps on the towing points. What does 37903 have?
               
              Thanks again for giving a close look to that one!
               
              Joe
               

              Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 2:10 PM
              Subject: [G104] M4A1 No.37903

              Hi Joe,
                  We had a few weeks of heavy rain here in Germany which put a damper on my Forensic Armorology as I'm calling it now, but I was able to get back to Graf today and confirm numbers on the M4A1(76) at the NCO Academy there.  I found the build number on the left rear. Looks like 3789 to me.  I can confirm that the serial number of the whole tank is 37903, not just the transmission housing. That number is also stamped in the data plate frame. It was hard to get a clear photo, the "9" is not very well stamped but I could see it clearly when I was in there. The  upper hull casting is dated 11-43.  So does all that add up to be the 3rd 76mm gunned Sherman built?  It has some odd scars on the hull sides also, looks like it may have had the extra armor plates there and they were removed when it was finished as a wet stowage tank.
               
                I know it is off topic, but I don't think there is a group for M47's. Graf has M47 serial number 5 on display. Sounds strange, but there is just a number "5" stamped into the top of both front tow hook lugs.  It has turret serial number 80, which makes sense, because the lower number turrets would have been on T42 prototypes.  It also is the only one I ever saw with the mounting rack on the rear hull for the Russian style external fuel tanks. If anyone wants photos just email me and let me know how much you want to see (I did not go inside yet)   I am getting problems from yahoo again with sending photos, so I will have to try sending them out later.
               
                Much more data on the dozer M4A3 in Graf to follow,
               
              Michael
               

               



            • Kurt Laughlin
              From: G104@yahoogroups.com [mailto:G104@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe DeMarco . . . I doubt S/N 37903 ever left the US during WW II. Would guess it was
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 25, 2012

                From: G104@yahoogroups.com [mailto:G104@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe DeMarco

                . . .

                 

                I doubt S/N 37903 ever left the US during WW II.

                Would guess it was remanufactured in the early 1950s & sent to the French as MDAP.

                The French dropped out of NATO in a snit, & the US Army probably inherited that tank back when the French left their occupation bases in Germany.

                 

                . . .

                 

                 Would that mean it (and others around the US that seem to have come from France) is likely to have the SN stamped on the glacis, per French practice?

                 

                KL

              • HL.Spoelstra@inter.NL.net
                ... Kurt, As far as I know, the French only stamped the glacis after a tank was rebuilt at one of their own depots. ref.
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 25, 2012
                  Op Ma, 25 juni, 2012 12:49 pm schreef Kurt Laughlin:
                  >> . . .
                  >> I doubt S/N 37903 ever left the US during WW II.
                  >> Would guess it was remanufactured in the early 1950s & sent to the
                  >> French as MDAP.
                  >> The French dropped out of NATO in a snit, & the US Army probably
                  >> inherited that tank back when the French left their occupation bases in
                  >> Germany.
                  >> . . .
                  >
                  > Would that mean it (and others around the US that seem to have come from
                  > France) is likely to have the SN stamped on the glacis, per French
                  > practice?


                  Kurt,

                  As far as I know, the French only stamped the glacis after a tank was
                  rebuilt at one of their own depots.

                  ref. http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/serial.htm#Frebuilds

                  Regards,
                  Hanno
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