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Re: [G104] New Sherman photos

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  • Michael Lembo
    Here is a link to a Czech website that just got sent to me, someone uncovered some more photos taken in Czechoslovakia in 1945, there are some 741st Tank Bn.
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 7, 2012
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      Here is a link to a Czech website that just got sent to me, someone uncovered some more photos taken in Czechoslovakia in 1945, there are some 741st Tank Bn. Shermans in there. I had not seen any of these before either.
       
       
      Let me know if it does not work and I will try forwarding from my hotmail where it was originally sent to.
       
      Michael

      From: Joe DeMarco <snick13@...>
      To: G104@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:04 PM
      Subject: Re: [G104] Re: M4A2 or A3?

       
      Thanks for the confirm of the "no pistol port" turret, Michel.  Over half of the entire 1943 Sherman production would have had those.  Too bad the guys couldn't locate the engine decks & commander's cupola. Otherwise, that tank is very close to "as built," which is extremely rare with surviving Shermans.  Would guess the only thing that was added to that at a depot was the radio. Depot directives "say" the Soviets were supplied with the British #19. Don't know if they asked for those, or if the US held back the SCR 52x series for technology reasons.
       
      Michael was asking about surviving Dozer Shermans. I suspect the M4 that was recovered off Omaha Beach is probably the only "complete" surviving example that was actually done during WW II.
       
      http://the.shadock.free.fr/Tanks_in_France/ddaywrecks_commes/index.html 
       
      Remarkable difference in the condition compared with the Kiev! The G logo on the bustle indicates both "no pistol port" turrets were cast by General Steel. The dozer looks to be an ALCO Fall, 1943 production. It's no fluke that it has the full suite of applique mods, compared to the Kiev. As the supply of mod kits entered the pipe line, there was a US combat troops first policy.
       
      Joe


      -------------------------------------------------
      From: "Tich" <michelvanloon@...>
      Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 6:22 AM
      To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [G104] Re: M4A2 or A3?

      > Hi Joe
      >
      > According to my translations, it didn't read US Army reps but engineers advised us....
      > It sems that the rivers in Russia are capable of preserving armor very well, we've seen some remarkable recoverys the last years.
      > I did find another picture of this Sherman witch clearly shows the damage to the turret, and indeed its a turret without pistol port.
      > See: http://v10.lscache4.c.bigcache.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28771109.jpg
      >
      > Michel
      >
      > --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, "Joe DeMarco" <snick13@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> Hi Michel,
      >>
      >> Thanks for the additional info. If I've read the
      translation correctly, US Army reps recommended that they destroy the "tower" ( turret? ) to eliminate danger from a live round stuck in the gun. However, the Ukrainians wanted to preserve it, so they went another way.  Human remains were said to be found in the tank, & some members of the four man crew were such recent recruits that they had not yet been issued uniforms. From looking at the original monument photos, I would not have thought the tank had been recovered from a river. It cleaned up good. It appears to have a "no pistol port" turret. If so, in combination with the 3-piece diff, think it would be July or August 1943 production. Hope a dedicated Sherman enthusiast can have a look at it some day.
      >>
      >> A friend recently looked at an M4A2 that is in a park in Moscow.  It has glacis pattern similar to the Kiev. That one has an M3 bogie installed on the right front. That could have been cobbled together for the
      monument, but there is at least one period photo of a Soviet M4A2 with that. The Russians didn't ask for or get a lot of spare parts.
      >>
      >> Joe


    • Joe DeMarco
      Hi Michael, One of the Czech photos (attached) shows an M4A3(76)VVSS with what appears to be the USA Number chalked on. Think it might be something like USA
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 8, 2012
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        Hi Michael,
         
        One of the Czech photos (attached) shows an M4A3(76)VVSS with what appears to be the USA Number chalked on. Think it might be something like USA 30116073 or thereabouts. That would have been made by Fisher Body. Without a visible registration number, the telltale clues of a Fisher M4A3(76) would be the solid roadwheels & the "plain" drive sprocket, neither of which were used by Chrysler.  Fisher only made 525 M4A3(76)s, all with VVSS, & a number of them appear to show up in the ETO & MTO in late March, 1945. I've attached another shot of one with the reg number chalked on, simply described as 3rd Army, Oberstein, Germany 3/31/45. The depots often masked the painted on reg number, but it can be seen as 30116041. The soldiers in this photo appear to be in the final stages of processing this tank for distribution. Perhaps the 741st got it & gave it their handlebar treatment? There's a faded date chalked on, 12/6/44, which I suspect was done during processing in the US.
         
        Trent, if you are listening in, the shipping code on this tank is an example with the additional phrase "STO" mentioned in one of the shipping docs you came across. It translates to..."If the war in Europe is over, STOP shipment of this item." 
        I suppose the only use for this type of trivia would be if an owner uncovered shipping code with the STO under the paint layers, it might be said, "This tank was preparing to be, or had been shipped to Europe in 1945."
         
        Joe
         

        Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 10:07 AM
        Subject: Re: [G104] New Sherman photos

        Here is a link to a Czech website that just got sent to me, someone uncovered some more photos taken in Czechoslovakia in 1945, there are some 741st Tank Bn. Shermans in there. I had not seen any of these before either.
         
         
        Let me know if it does not work and I will try forwarding from my hotmail where it was originally sent to.
         
        Michael

         
      • Michael Lembo
        Hi Joe,   I was surprised to see the bumper numbers painted on a lighter colored strip, the way the Army does that now. I had not seen that on any other WW2
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 8, 2012
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          Hi Joe,
            I was surprised to see the bumper numbers painted on a lighter colored strip, the way the Army does that now. I had not seen that on any other WW2 US armor.  I attached a photo of another Sherman with "handlebars" on a street in Pilsen. I got this one from the Patton museum in Pilsen and it has already been published in at least one Czech book. They usually credit it as a 16th AD tank, but after seeing those recent photos I think this one must also belong to the 741st.
           
          Michael

          From: Joe DeMarco <snick13@...>
          To: G104@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2012 6:47 PM
          Subject: Re: [G104] New Sherman photos

           
          Hi Michael,
           
          One of the Czech photos (attached) shows an M4A3(76)VVSS with what appears to be the USA Number chalked on. Think it might be something like USA 30116073 or thereabouts. That would have been made by Fisher Body. Without a visible registration number, the telltale clues of a Fisher M4A3(76) would be the solid roadwheels & the "plain" drive sprocket, neither of which were used by Chrysler.  Fisher only made 525 M4A3(76)s, all with VVSS, & a number of them appear to show up in the ETO & MTO in late March, 1945. I've attached another shot of one with the reg number chalked on, simply described as 3rd Army, Oberstein, Germany 3/31/45. The depots often masked the painted on reg number, but it can be seen as 30116041. The soldiers in this photo appear to be in the final stages of processing this tank for distribution. Perhaps the 741st got it & gave it their handlebar treatment? There's a faded date chalked on, 12/6/44, which I suspect was done during processing in the US.
           
          Trent, if you are listening in, the shipping code on this tank is an example with the additional phrase "STO" mentioned in one of the shipping docs you came across. It translates to..."If the war in Europe is over, STOP shipment of this item." 
          I suppose the only use for this type of trivia would be if an owner uncovered shipping code with the STO under the paint layers, it might be said, "This tank was preparing to be, or had been shipped to Europe in 1945."
           
          Joe
           

          Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 10:07 AM
          Subject: Re: [G104] New Sherman photos

          Here is a link to a Czech website that just got sent to me, someone uncovered some more photos taken in Czechoslovakia in 1945, there are some 741st Tank Bn. Shermans in there. I had not seen any of these before either.
           
          http://www.detektorweb.cz/index.4me?s=show&lang=1&i=35066&mm=1&xb=6&vd=1
           
          Let me know if it does not work and I will try forwarding from my hotmail where it was originally sent to.
           
          Michael

           


        • Trent Telenko
          Joe, Ten of the E12-7R1 in M4A1 flame tanks I an researching were in a frustrated by V-E Day shipment to the ETO. If any of the 2-3 survivors have that
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 10, 2012
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            Joe,
             
            Ten of the E12-7R1 in M4A1 flame tanks I an researching were in a frustrated by V-E Day shipment to the ETO.
             
            If any of the 2-3 survivors have that "STO" code, they were in that batch of 10.
             
            I  strongly doubt that is the case, as the 17 strong  San Francisco E12-7R1 shipment RP Hunnicutt spoke of included those ten plus seven more...and they got stuck at Guam for two months due to a transport ship casualty.  They arrived in Manila in early Sept 1945.
             
            I have the end of war locations of three E12-7R1 prototypes, which most likely survived the scrap yard, marked as at the following places:
                1) Ft. Hood, Tx-- Project Sphinx field exercises,
                2) Ft. Knox, Ky -- Project Sphinx related defoliant research project and
                3) One at the Edgewood Arsenal, MD, with the sole E13R1-13R2. 
             
            Those three are the most likely candidates for the surviving E12-7R1's.
             
            From what I have been able to gather, the US Army quietly dumped most surviving rebuilt M4A1 in the stateside inventory -- which is what all the 151 E12-7R1 flame throwers were installed in -- into the MAP program after the war, when extent of the pre-1944 problems with their cast armor protection were uncovered. 
             
            The US Army was very much aware of this armor problem at the time, accoring to a 1947 document I bought from Merrium Press.


            From: Joe DeMarco <snick13@...>
            To: G104@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sun, January 8, 2012 11:47:45 AM
            Subject: Re: [G104] New Sherman photos

             

            Hi Michael,
             
            One of the Czech photos (attached) shows an M4A3(76)VVSS with what appears to be the USA Number chalked on. Think it might be something like USA 30116073 or thereabouts. That would have been made by Fisher Body. Without a visible registration number, the telltale clues of a Fisher M4A3(76) would be the solid roadwheels & the "plain" drive sprocket, neither of which were used by Chrysler.  Fisher only made 525 M4A3(76)s, all with VVSS, & a number of them appear to show up in the ETO & MTO in late March, 1945. I've attached another shot of one with the reg number chalked on, simply described as 3rd Army, Oberstein, Germany 3/31/45. The depots often masked the painted on reg number, but it can be seen as 30116041. The soldiers in this photo appear to be in the final stages of processing this tank for distribution. Perhaps the 741st got it & gave it their handlebar treatment? There's a faded date chalked on, 12/6/44, which I suspect was done during processing in the US.
             
            Trent, if you are listening in, the shipping code on this tank is an example with the additional phrase "STO" mentioned in one of the shipping docs you came across. It translates to..."If the war in Europe is over, STOP shipment of this item." 
            I suppose the only use for this type of trivia would be if an owner uncovered shipping code with the STO under the paint layers, it might be said, "This tank was preparing to be, or had been shipped to Europe in 1945."
             
            Joe
             

            Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 10:07 AM
            Subject: Re: [G104] New Sherman photos

            Here is a link to a Czech website that just got sent to me, someone uncovered some more photos taken in Czechoslovakia in 1945, there are some 741st Tank Bn. Shermans in there. I had not seen any of these before either.
             
            http://www.detektorweb.cz/index.4me?s=show&lang=1&i=35066&mm=1&xb=6&vd=1
             
            Let me know if it does not work and I will try forwarding from my hotmail where it was originally sent to.
             
            Michael

             
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