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Re: [G104] Tanks in Hohenfels, Germany

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  • Michael Lembo
    Sure, I have taken a few hundred photos of 3 of these Shermans so far, inside and out.  It may be easier if I send them to you on a CD.   Michael
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 12, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Sure, I have taken a few hundred photos of 3 of these Shermans so far, inside and out.  It may be easier if I send them to you on a CD.
       
      Michael

      From: Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
      To: G104@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:49 PM
      Subject: RE: [G104] Tanks in Hohenfels, Germany
       
      Hi Michael:
       
      I recall you mentioning that you were photographing the various Shermans at Hohenfels and elsewhere.  I am compiling a document showing the various casting markings and variations on the larger Sherman pieces (turret, gun shields, rotor shields, driver’s plate [E8020], and differential housings).  If you have photos that include this information I would appreciate getting copies, if you have the time.  Please let me know if you are amenable to this.
       
      Thanks for your help,
      KL
       
      From: G104@yahoogroups.com [mailto:G104@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Lembo
      Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:16 AM
      To: G104@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [G104] Tanks in Hohenfels, Germany
       
       
      Hello all members.
       
      I am a civilian contractor (US Army Retired) working at the US post in Hohenfels, Germany.  We have here an M4A1(76)W on display in front of the HQ building.  It is unusual in that is has a muzzle brake and attachments on the mantlet for the canvas cover, but still has VVSS suspension.  I have only been able to find 3 wartime photos of an M4A1 in this configuration, and none of them have the mantlet cover attachments.  The Osprey book on the 76 Gun M4 says a small batch of these arrived in the ETO in the spring of '45.  It has too much paint for me to find a serial number, and it is right in front of the HQ, so I can't just walk up and start wire brushing the SN locations.  I am working on getting Command approval to investigate it.  I will send a photo as soon as I get one.  I am also working on restoring an M24 Chaffee which belongs to the Army here as well. If anyone has a database of serial numbers for these also, I need whatever info can be found on M24 Ser# 5540, Hull number is:  lightly stamped "H" followed by a deeper stamped "C", number 721, flanked by ordnance bombs.  It has floatation device attachments only on the rear, never were installed in front.  Has the early type antenna mount, but the later type gun tube (could be replaced tube).  It had all the 1950's commo modifications, but it has now been backdated to the original config.  Any info on these two will be greatly appreciated.
       
      Michael Lembo

      --- On Tue, 10/11/11, Joe DeMarco <snick13@...> wrote:

      From: Joe DeMarco <snick13@...>
      Subject: Re: [G104] Re: looking for a serial number
      To: G104@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, October 11, 2011, 10:10 PM
       
      Hello Johan,

      >What evidence of the metal rods on the side of the turret do you see?

      I was thinking of the little loops that you can see welded on to the turret
      sides. I've marked up & attached one of your photos. Those loops could be
      for the purpose of hanging crew junk, or holding chicken wire.
      Here's a blow up of a photo that I sent to Don M. when he was working on
      Cobra King. This was taken at Hammelburg in 1948. You can see the rods &
      wire that were added to the hull & turret. Don was able to find weld scars
      in the same position, as well as the same casting marks on the bow gunner's
      hatch, so we are almost certain that is a photo of CK. One wonders how it
      ended up there? Aside from being "First in Bastogne," was it also the Cobra
      King that was said to have been lost during the Hammelburg Raid? Both
      episodes involved C Co. / 37th Tank Bn, so don't see why not, but can't
      prove it.

      >The story goes that this Sherman ran on a mine. Afterwards it was puched of
      >the road. I've seen no evidence of any battledamage.

      In the course of researching your model, if you come across any further info
      about the history of the Beffe, would you please let us know?

      Joe

      --------------------------------------------------
      From: "metalscalemodels" <contact@...>
      Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 2:49 PM
      To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [G104] Re: looking for a serial number

      > Hello Joe,
      >
      > The story goes that this Sherman ran on a mine. Afterwards it was puched
      > of the road. I've seen no evidence of any battledamage.
      > I'm almost sure that there is no number at the side of the glacis.
      > I've got no pictures of the bogies. I didn't know that was a point of
      > interest..
      > What evidence of the metal rods on the side of the turret do you see?
      >
      > thanks for your reply.
      >
      > Johan
    • metalscalemodels
      Hello all, I found a picture of the Beffe Sherman. On that picture there are some numbers visable. It looks like: 3051319. It is hardly to see so i can easely
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 30, 2013

       Hello all,


      I found a picture of the Beffe Sherman. On that picture there are some numbers visable. It looks like: 3051319. It is hardly to see so i can easely be wrong. Is this a possible reg. number? 


      regards,

      Johan Meijer



      ---In G104@yahoogroups.com, <g104@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      Hello Johan,

      It would certainly be interesting to be able to determine the history of
      that Sherman. It is an early Chrysler (Spring 1944) production vehicle as
      evidenced by the very low serial number of the E8020 casting (A11) & the
      early position of the forward cable clamp, behind, not on, the E8020 piece.
      Many of the bogie units that Chrysler used had dates cast on them, which can
      provide a clue about when the tank was made. I don't have any clear shots of
      the dates, but would guess they might be "3-44." The turret is also an early
      production casting (serial number A75) with a fitting (that was later
      eliminated) for a forward antenna mount. You can also see the "ghost" of the
      extra lifting ring just behind the forward antenna mount. Certainly the
      early turret & hull are appropriate together, but I would wonder why only
      the turret shows evidence of having had the metal rods that some US units
      welded on to hold foliage? Could the turret be from another tank? The engine
      deck panels are replacements taken from an M74. I'm sure that, as built,
      that tank would have had a 1-piece rearmost engine deck. Did you see any
      damage or penetrations on the tank?

      The numbers you saw stamped in the rear are probably just the part number &
      serial number of the individual piece of armor plate. On a clean Sherman,
      stamped numbers can be found on almost everything. One of our members
      sanded through many layers of paint to expose the serial number (43911) of a
      similar M4A3(76)VVSS in Clervaux. I expect the Beffe would have a lower
      S/N, but don't recommend sanding without getting permission. I've attached
      a photo I marked up to show people where to look for a loose build sequence
      number on a Chrysler. Sometimes it's possible to read that despite heavy
      paint. I expect the Beffe would have "76B" & then a number 300 or lower.

      Very impressive model, Johan! On a historical note, Chrsyler built Shermans
      with VVSS had pressed metal, spoked road wheels installed as original
      equipment. That's not to say they couldn't have been replaced with other
      types in the course of service, but probably not all of them.

      >I think the French did the box on all the vehicles they rebuild.

      OK, Michel.
      The Somua S35 at APG has "numbers in a box" stamped on the hull & turret.
      Also has "CAIL NO 42761" (attached) which I take to be the Matricule Number?
      French Lend Lease Shermans were obviously assigned Matricules, although I
      don't think anyone has ever reported finding one stamped into the armor.

      >If it's indeed RN 40152515 that would be SN 4052 isn' it?

      Yes.

      Joe


      --------------------------------------------------
      From: "metalscalemodels" <contact@...>
      Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 10:21 AM
      To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [G104] looking for a serial number

      > I have been this summer In Beffe Belgium, after spending a hollyday in
      > France, I visit the Shermantank over there. I went there looking for
      > serial numbers. I found nothing on the known places, towlugs etc. I did
      > find a number of what i believe could be a sn number. It is stamped only
      > on the right backside. Unfortunately it is not very clear. I hope someone
      > can make something of it.
      >
      > Does anyone know also something about the unitmarkings of the 771st tankbt
      > in januari 1945. I believe that was the unit where this sherman belong to.
      >
      >
      > for the pictures: http://www.shermantank.nl/M4A3(76)W.htm
      >
      >
      >
      > regards,
      >
      > Johan Meijer
    • Joe DeMarco
      Hi Johan, That tank has some early features which would suggest it was made by Chrysler around April or May 1944. I m pretty sure that the USA Number assigned
      Message 3 of 29 , Oct 1, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Johan,
         
        That tank has some early features which would suggest it was made by Chrysler around April or May 1944.
        I'm pretty sure that the USA Number assigned to that would have been 8 digits long, beginning with 30100xxx.
        Thanks for posting the image.
        A period photo is an excellent "back door" to the Registration Number of a surviving tank. 
        Unfortunately it doesn't seem like it would be possible to get a good read of the numbers from that photo.
        Perhaps there are some other pix from the same time period that would clearly show the Registration Number?
         
        Joe
         
         
         
         
         

        Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 4:22 PM
        Subject: RE: Re: [G104] looking for a serial number [2 Attachments]

         Hello all,


        I found a picture of the Beffe Sherman. On that picture there are some numbers visable. It looks like: 3051319. It is hardly to see so i can easely be wrong. Is this a possible reg. number? 


        regards,

        Johan Meijer



        ---In G104@yahoogroups.com, <g104@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Hello Johan,

        It would certainly be interesting to be able to determine the history of
        that Sherman. It is an early Chrysler (Spring 1944) production vehicle as
        evidenced by the very low serial number of the E8020 casting (A11) & the
        early position of the forward cable clamp, behind, not on, the E8020 piece.
        Many of the bogie units that Chrysler used had dates cast on them, which can
        provide a clue about when the tank was made. I don't have any clear shots of
        the dates, but would guess they might be "3-44." The turret is also an early
        production casting (serial number A75) with a fitting (that was later
        eliminated) for a forward antenna mount. You can also see the "ghost" of the
        extra lifting ring just behind the forward antenna mount. Certainly the
        early turret & hull are appropriate together, but I would wonder why only
        the turret shows evidence of having had the metal rods that some US units
        welded on to hold foliage? Could the turret be from another tank? The engine
        deck panels are replacements taken from an M74. I'm sure that, as built,
        that tank would have had a 1-piece rearmost engine deck. Did you see any
        damage or penetrations on the tank?

        The numbers you saw stamped in the rear are probably just the part number &
        serial number of the individual piece of armor plate. On a clean Sherman,
        stamped numbers can be found on almost everything. One of our members
        sanded through many layers of paint to expose the serial number (43911) of a
        similar M4A3(76)VVSS in Clervaux. I expect the Beffe would have a lower
        S/N, but don't recommend sanding without getting permission. I've attached
        a photo I marked up to show people where to look for a loose build sequence
        number on a Chrysler. Sometimes it's possible to read that despite heavy
        paint. I expect the Beffe would have "76B" & then a number 300 or lower.

        Very impressive model, Johan! On a historical note, Chrsyler built Shermans
        with VVSS had pressed metal, spoked road wheels installed as original
        equipment. That's not to say they couldn't have been replaced with other
        types in the course of service, but probably not all of them.

        >I think the French did the box on all the vehicles they rebuild.

        OK, Michel.
        The Somua S35 at APG has "numbers in a box" stamped on the hull & turret.
        Also has "CAIL NO 42761" (attached) which I take to be the Matricule Number?
        French Lend Lease Shermans were obviously assigned Matricules, although I
        don't think anyone has ever reported finding one stamped into the armor.

        >If it's indeed RN 40152515 that would be SN 4052 isn' it?

        Yes.

        Joe


        --------------------------------------------------
        From: "metalscalemodels" <contact@...>
        Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 10:21 AM
        To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [G104] looking for a serial number

        > I have been this summer In Beffe Belgium, after spending a hollyday in
        > France, I visit the Shermantank over there. I went there looking for
        > serial numbers. I found nothing on the known places, towlugs etc. I did
        > find a number of what i believe could be a sn number. It is stamped only
        > on the right backside. Unfortunately it is not very clear. I hope someone
        > can make something of it.
        >
        > Does anyone know also something about the unitmarkings of the 771st tankbt
        > in januari 1945. I believe that was the unit where this sherman belong to.
        >
        >
        > for the pictures: http://www.shermantank.nl/M4A3(76)W.htm
        >
        >
        >
        > regards,
        >
        > Johan Meijer
      • shermans in holland
        Hi Joe, Thanks for your info, There are not a lot of old pictures on the www about this Sherman. I ve got some older pictures, but they are not good enough to
        Message 4 of 29 , Oct 1, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Joe,
          Thanks for your info,
          There are not a lot of old pictures on the www about this Sherman. I've got some older pictures, but they are not good enough to show a number. So i'll keep on searching and i hope i will find it some day!
           
          Johan


          Van: G104@yahoogroups.com [mailto:G104@yahoogroups.com] Namens Joe DeMarco
          Verzonden: dinsdag 1 oktober 2013 16:34
          Aan: G104@yahoogroups.com
          Onderwerp: Re: Re: [G104] looking for a serial number

           

          Hi Johan,
           
          That tank has some early features which would suggest it was made by Chrysler around April or May 1944.
          I'm pretty sure that the USA Number assigned to that would have been 8 digits long, beginning with 30100xxx.
          Thanks for posting the image.
          A period photo is an excellent "back door" to the Registration Number of a surviving tank. 
          Unfortunately it doesn't seem like it would be possible to get a good read of the numbers from that photo.
          Perhaps there are some other pix from the same time period that would clearly show the Registration Number?
           
          Joe
           
           
           
           
           

          Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 4:22 PM
          Subject: RE: Re: [G104] looking for a serial number [2 Attachments]

           Hello all,


          I found a picture of the Beffe Sherman. On that picture there are some numbers visable. It looks like: 3051319. It is hardly to see so i can easely be wrong. Is this a possible reg. number? 


          regards,

          Johan Meijer



          ---In G104@yahoogroups.com, <g104@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          Hello Johan,

          It would certainly be interesting to be able to determine the history of
          that Sherman. It is an early Chrysler (Spring 1944) production vehicle as
          evidenced by the very low serial number of the E8020 casting (A11) & the
          early position of the forward cable clamp, behind, not on, the E8020 piece.
          Many of the bogie units that Chrysler used had dates cast on them, which can
          provide a clue about when the tank was made. I don't have any clear shots of
          the dates, but would guess they might be "3-44." The turret is also an early
          production casting (serial number A75) with a fitting (that was later
          eliminated) for a forward antenna mount. You can also see the "ghost" of the
          extra lifting ring just behind the forward antenna mount. Certainly the
          early turret & hull are appropriate together, but I would wonder why only
          the turret shows evidence of having had the metal rods that some US units
          welded on to hold foliage? Could the turret be from another tank? The engine
          deck panels are replacements taken from an M74. I'm sure that, as built,
          that tank would have had a 1-piece rearmost engine deck. Did you see any
          damage or penetrations on the tank?

          The numbers you saw stamped in the rear are probably just the part number &
          serial number of the individual piece of armor plate. On a clean Sherman,
          stamped numbers can be found on almost everything. One of our members
          sanded through many layers of paint to expose the serial number (43911) of a
          similar M4A3(76)VVSS in Clervaux. I expect the Beffe would have a lower
          S/N, but don't recommend sanding without getting permission. I've attached
          a photo I marked up to show people where to look for a loose build sequence
          number on a Chrysler. Sometimes it's possible to read that despite heavy
          paint. I expect the Beffe would have "76B" & then a number 300 or lower.

          Very impressive model, Johan! On a historical note, Chrsyler built Shermans
          with VVSS had pressed metal, spoked road wheels installed as original
          equipment. That's not to say they couldn't have been replaced with other
          types in the course of service, but probably not all of them.

          >I think the French did the box on all the vehicles they rebuild.

          OK, Michel.
          The Somua S35 at APG has "numbers in a box" stamped on the hull & turret.
          Also has "CAIL NO 42761" (attached) which I take to be the Matricule Number?
          French Lend Lease Shermans were obviously assigned Matricules, although I
          don't think anyone has ever reported finding one stamped into the armor.

          >If it's indeed RN 40152515 that would be SN 4052 isn' it?

          Yes.

          Joe


          --------------------------------------------------
          From: "metalscalemodels" <contact@...>
          Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 10:21 AM
          To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [G104] looking for a serial number

          > I have been this summer In Beffe Belgium, after spending a hollyday in
          > France, I visit the Shermantank over there. I went there looking for
          > serial numbers. I found nothing on the known places, towlugs etc. I did
          > find a number of what i believe could be a sn number. It is stamped only
          > on the right backside. Unfortunately it is not very clear. I hope someone
          > can make something of it.
          >
          > Does anyone know also something about the unitmarkings of the 771st tankbt
          > in januari 1945. I believe that was the unit where this sherman belong to.
          >
          >
          > for the pictures: http://www.shermantank.nl/M4A3(76)W.htm
          >
          >
          >
          > regards,
          >
          > Johan Meijer


          Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht.
          Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com
          Versie: 2014.0.4142 / Virusdatabase: 3604/6712 - datum van uitgifte: 09/30/13

        • Billy Ray
          Joe, I sure hope my Dad s Sherman an M4A3 105mm Big Bertha shows up some day... Billy Ray Son of a Tanker 777th Tank Battalion Sent from my iPhone
          Message 5 of 29 , Oct 1, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Joe, 
            I sure hope my Dad's Sherman an M4A3 105mm "Big Bertha" shows up some day...
            Billy Ray
            Son of a Tanker
            777th Tank Battalion

            Sent from my iPhone

            On Oct 1, 2013, at 4:24 PM, "shermans in holland" <contact@...> wrote:

             

            Hi Joe,
            Thanks for your info,
            There are not a lot of old pictures on the www about this Sherman. I've got some older pictures, but they are not good enough to show a number. So i'll keep on searching and i hope i will find it some day!
             
            Johan


            Van: G104@yahoogroups.com [mailto:G104@yahoogroups.com] Namens Joe DeMarco
            Verzonden: dinsdag 1 oktober 2013 16:34
            Aan: G104@yahoogroups.com
            Onderwerp: Re: Re: [G104] looking for a serial number

             

            Hi Johan,
             
            That tank has some early features which would suggest it was made by Chrysler around April or May 1944.
            I'm pretty sure that the USA Number assigned to that would have been 8 digits long, beginning with 30100xxx.
            Thanks for posting the image.
            A period photo is an excellent "back door" to the Registration Number of a surviving tank. 
            Unfortunately it doesn't seem like it would be possible to get a good read of the numbers from that photo.
            Perhaps there are some other pix from the same time period that would clearly show the Registration Number?
             
            Joe
             
             
             
             
             

            Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 4:22 PM
            Subject: RE: Re: [G104] looking for a serial number [2 Attachments]

             Hello all,


            I found a picture of the Beffe Sherman. On that picture there are some numbers visable. It looks like: 3051319. It is hardly to see so i can easely be wrong. Is this a possible reg. number? 


            regards,

            Johan Meijer



            ---In G104@yahoogroups.com, <g104@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            Hello Johan,

            It would certainly be interesting to be able to determine the history of
            that Sherman. It is an early Chrysler (Spring 1944) production vehicle as
            evidenced by the very low serial number of the E8020 casting (A11) & the
            early position of the forward cable clamp, behind, not on, the E8020 piece.
            Many of the bogie units that Chrysler used had dates cast on them, which can
            provide a clue about when the tank was made. I don't have any clear shots of
            the dates, but would guess they might be "3-44." The turret is also an early
            production casting (serial number A75) with a fitting (that was later
            eliminated) for a forward antenna mount. You can also see the "ghost" of the
            extra lifting ring just behind the forward antenna mount. Certainly the
            early turret & hull are appropriate together, but I would wonder why only
            the turret shows evidence of having had the metal rods that some US units
            welded on to hold foliage? Could the turret be from another tank? The engine
            deck panels are replacements taken from an M74. I'm sure that, as built,
            that tank would have had a 1-piece rearmost engine deck. Did you see any
            damage or penetrations on the tank?

            The numbers you saw stamped in the rear are probably just the part number &
            serial number of the individual piece of armor plate. On a clean Sherman,
            stamped numbers can be found on almost everything. One of our members
            sanded through many layers of paint to expose the serial number (43911) of a
            similar M4A3(76)VVSS in Clervaux. I expect the Beffe would have a lower
            S/N, but don't recommend sanding without getting permission. I've attached
            a photo I marked up to show people where to look for a loose build sequence
            number on a Chrysler. Sometimes it's possible to read that despite heavy
            paint. I expect the Beffe would have "76B" & then a number 300 or lower.

            Very impressive model, Johan! On a historical note, Chrsyler built Shermans
            with VVSS had pressed metal, spoked road wheels installed as original
            equipment. That's not to say they couldn't have been replaced with other
            types in the course of service, but probably not all of them.

            >I think the French did the box on all the vehicles they rebuild.

            OK, Michel.
            The Somua S35 at APG has "numbers in a box" stamped on the hull & turret.
            Also has "CAIL NO 42761" (attached) which I take to be the Matricule Number?
            French Lend Lease Shermans were obviously assigned Matricules, although I
            don't think anyone has ever reported finding one stamped into the armor.

            >If it's indeed RN 40152515 that would be SN 4052 isn' it?

            Yes.

            Joe


            --------------------------------------------------
            From: "metalscalemodels" <contact@...>
            Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 10:21 AM
            To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [G104] looking for a serial number

            > I have been this summer In Beffe Belgium, after spending a hollyday in
            > France, I visit the Shermantank over there. I went there looking for
            > serial numbers. I found nothing on the known places, towlugs etc. I did
            > find a number of what i believe could be a sn number. It is stamped only
            > on the right backside. Unfortunately it is not very clear. I hope someone
            > can make something of it.
            >
            > Does anyone know also something about the unitmarkings of the 771st tankbt
            > in januari 1945. I believe that was the unit where this sherman belong to.
            >
            >
            > for the pictures: http://www.shermantank.nl/M4A3(76)W.htm
            >
            >
            >
            > regards,
            >
            > Johan Meijer


            Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht.
            Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com
            Versie: 2014.0.4142 / Virusdatabase: 3604/6712 - datum van uitgifte: 09/30/13

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