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M4A2 or A3?

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  • Tich
    Found this pictures of a Sherman in Kiev, Ukraine. Its labeled M4A3, but I m not sure about that. Pictures:
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 22, 2011
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      Found this pictures of a Sherman in Kiev, Ukraine. Its labeled M4A3, but I'm not sure about that.
      Pictures: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647478.jpg
      and http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647473.jpg
      Just to keep my records correct

      Michel
    • Pierre-Olivier
      Hello, this tank is for sure an M4A2(75), and it seems to be a variant built by Pullman Standard. The URSS did receive M4A2(75)s as Lend-Lease, and anyway they
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 22, 2011
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        Hello,

        this tank is for sure an M4A2(75), and it seems to be a variant built by Pullman Standard. The URSS did receive M4A2(75)s as Lend-Lease, and anyway they never received any M4A3(75) from the USA.

        Pierre-Olivier



        --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, "Tich" <michelvanloon@...> wrote:
        >
        > Found this pictures of a Sherman in Kiev, Ukraine. Its labeled M4A3, but I'm not sure about that.
        > Pictures: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647478.jpg
        > and http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647473.jpg
        > Just to keep my records correct
        >
        > Michel
        >
      • Tich
        Tanks for that P-O It confirms what I initialy tought. Michel
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 22, 2011
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          Tanks for that P-O
          It confirms what I initialy tought.

          Michel
        • Joe DeMarco
          Hi Michel, That s a great find! Pierre-Olivier, production numbers would favor that tank being a Pullman M4A2, but I think there s also a possibility that it
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 23, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Michel,
             
            That's a great find!
             
            Pierre-Olivier, production numbers would favor that tank being a Pullman M4A2, but I think there's also a possibility that it might be a Federal Machine & Welder. The look of their Shermans may have been identical, except Federal stamped the serial number on the exterior whereas Pullman did not. Also, I have a theory that Pullman was like Fisher & Pacific Car, & after the first month or so, got steady supplies of one piece diffs.
             
            Any more pix of that?
             
            Joe



            --------------------------------------------------
            From: "Tich" <michelvanloon@...>
            Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 3:06 PM
            To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [G104] M4A2 or A3?

            > Found this pictures of a Sherman in Kiev, Ukraine. Its labeled
            M4A3, but I'm not sure about that.

            > Pictures:
            title="http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647478.jpg CTRL + Click to follow link" href="http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647478.jpg">http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647478.jpg

            > and
            title="http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647473.jpg CTRL + Click to follow link" href="http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647473.jpg">http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647473.jpg

            > Just to keep my records correct
            >
            > Michel
             
          • Terry Warner
            Considering the wide range of M4 Sherman manufacturers does the collective wisdom recognize any one maker was better than the rest? Fewer defects, more repeat
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 23, 2011
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              Considering the wide range of M4 Sherman manufacturers does the collective wisdom recognize any one maker was better than the rest? Fewer defects, more repeat contracts, sharing out their production staff to expedite other plants' troubles? Or was one's tanks just as good as another's?

              For example Springfield Armory's Garands were noticeably different than Winchester's, and SA regularly sent staff to Winchester to speed delivery and reduce rejections.

              Inquiring minds want to know.
              Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.
              Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Joe DeMarco <snick13@...>
              Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 14:02:45
              To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [G104] M4A2 or A3?

               




              Hi Michel,
               
              That's a great find!
               
              Pierre-Olivier, production numbers would favor that tank being a Pullman M4A2, but I think there's also a possibility that it might be a Federal Machine & Welder. The look of their Shermans may have been identical, except Federal stamped the serial number on the exterior whereas Pullman did not. Also, I have a theory that Pullman was like Fisher & Pacific Car, & after the first month or so, got steady supplies of one piece diffs.
               
              Any more pix of that?
               
              Joe





              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "Tich" <michelvanloon@...>
              Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 3:06 PM
              To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [G104] M4A2 or A3?

              > Found this pictures of a Sherman in Kiev, Ukraine. Its labeled M4A3, but I'm not sure about that.

              > Pictures: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647478.jpg
              > and http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647473.jpg
              > Just to keep my records correct>
              > Michel 
            • Tich
              Hi Joe Did some more researche on that M4A2, from an artikel I did find it was deliverd to the USSR in januari 1944 and lost in its first battle in Februari
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 23, 2011
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                Hi Joe

                Did some more researche on that M4A2, from an artikel I did find it was deliverd to the USSR in januari 1944 and lost in its first battle in Februari 1944 killing its entire crew. Discovered in a river in 1998 and recovered in 2004. Now located at the National Academy of Defence, Kiev.
                The story on that Sherman: http://zn.ua/SOCIETY/kak_my_podnimali_sherman-42207.html and
                http://www.segodnya.ua/news/344369.html , both in russian, but google translate makes it readable.
                It seems its the only surviving Sherman in Ukraine, but pictures of it are rare

                Michel

                --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, "Joe DeMarco" <snick13@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Michel,
                >
                > That's a great find!
                >
                > Pierre-Olivier, production numbers would favor that tank being a Pullman M4A2, but I think there's also a possibility that it might be a Federal Machine & Welder. The look of their Shermans may have been identical, except Federal stamped the serial number on the exterior whereas Pullman did not. Also, I have a theory that Pullman was like Fisher & Pacific Car, & after the first month or so, got steady supplies of one piece diffs.
                >
                > Any more pix of that?
                >
                > Joe
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --------------------------------------------------
                > From: "Tich" <michelvanloon@...>
                > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 3:06 PM
                > To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: [G104] M4A2 or A3?
                >
                > > Found this pictures of a Sherman in Kiev, Ukraine. Its labeled M4A3, but I'm not sure about that.
                >
                > > Pictures: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647478.jpg
                >
                > > and http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647473.jpg
                >
                > > Just to keep my records correct
                > >
                > > Michel
                >
              • Joe DeMarco
                Hi Michel, Thanks for the additional info. If I ve read the translation correctly, US Army reps recommended that they destroy the tower ( turret? ) to
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 24, 2011
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                  Hi Michel,

                  Thanks for the additional info. If I've read the translation correctly, US Army reps recommended that they destroy the "tower" ( turret? ) to eliminate danger from a live round stuck in the gun. However, the Ukrainians wanted to preserve it, so they went another way.  Human remains were said to be found in the tank, & some members of the four man crew were such recent recruits that they had not yet been issued uniforms. From looking at the original monument photos, I would not have thought the tank had been recovered from a river. It cleaned up good. It appears to have a "no pistol port" turret. If so, in combination with the 3-piece diff, think it would be July or August 1943 production. Hope a dedicated Sherman enthusiast can have a look at it some day.
                   
                  A friend recently looked at an M4A2 that is in a park in Moscow.  It has glacis pattern similar to the Kiev. That one has an M3 bogie installed on the right front. That could have been cobbled together for the monument, but there is at least one period photo of a Soviet M4A2 with that. The Russians didn't ask for or get a lot of spare parts.
                   
                  Joe
                   
                   

                  --------------------------------------------------
                  From: "Tich" <michelvanloon@...>
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 2:41 PM
                  To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: [G104] Re: M4A2 or A3?

                  > Hi Joe
                  >
                  > Did some more researche on that M4A2,
                  from an artikel I did find it was deliverd to the USSR in januari 1944 and lost in its first battle in Februari 1944 killing its entire crew. Discovered in a river in 1998 and recovered in 2004. Now located at the National Academy of Defence, Kiev.
                  > The story on that Sherman:
                  title="http://zn.ua/SOCIETY/kak_my_podnimali_sherman-42207.html CTRL + Click to follow link" href="http://zn.ua/SOCIETY/kak_my_podnimali_sherman-42207.html">http://zn.ua/SOCIETY/kak_my_podnimali_sherman-42207.html
                   and
                  >
                  title="http://www.segodnya.ua/news/344369.html CTRL + Click to follow link" href="http://www.segodnya.ua/news/344369.html">http://www.segodnya.ua/news/344369.html
                   
                  > both in russian, but google translate makes it readable.
                  >
                  It seems its the only surviving Sherman in Ukraine, but pictures of it are rare
                  >
                  > Michel
                  >
                • Joe DeMarco
                  Hi Terry, I didn t come across any documentation that suggested that there were any significant differences in quality among the various manufacturers. A lot
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 24, 2011
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                    Hi Terry,
                     
                    I didn't come across any documentation that suggested that there were any significant differences in quality among the various manufacturers. A lot of the major components were shared, such as engines, power trains, suspensions & armor, & they had had the bugs worked out during the M3 Medium program. There weren't any major recalls, such as I believe occurred with some British & German tanks. Sometimes a good leader can make a difference in a large bureaucracy, & I would say that K.T. Keller of Chrysler & Ernest Murphy of Pressed Steel Car were pretty dynamic leaders. On the civilian side, major R&D was done by Chrysler & GM in Detroit - the Ordnance Dept did not have its own facilities there at the time. It's probably significant that by 1944, when the Medium Tank Program was curtailed, the three remaining companies were Chrysler, Fisher Body & Pressed Steel. Surprisingly, Ford was dropped - one doc cites "high cost, low productivity." However, the V8 engine they developed was considered the best, & they continued to produce that until the end. I've wondered if a truck engine of sufficient horsepower was available in the US in the late 1930s? It may have been, but the Army bureaucrats weren't aware of it. If it was, the Medium Tanks could have sat a foot lower. On the other hand, the Wright Whirlwind aircraft engine was well known to be thoroughly reliable. I think it was essentially the same engine as was used in the Spirit of St Louis.
                     
                    Joe
                     
                     
                     
                     

                    --------------------------------------------------
                    From: "Terry Warner " <terry.warner@...>
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 2:29 PM
                    To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: Re: [G104] M4A2 or A3?

                    > Considering the wide range of M4 Sherman manufacturers does the
                    collective wisdom recognize any one maker was better than the rest?  Fewer defects, more repeat contracts, sharing out their production staff to expedite other plants' troubles?  Or was one's tanks just as good as another's? 
                    >
                    > For example Springfield Armory's Garands were
                    noticeably different than Winchester's, and SA regularly sent staff to Winchester to speed delivery and reduce rejections.
                    >
                    > Inquiring
                    minds want to know.
                    > Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the
                    Bell network.
                    > Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le
                    réseau de Bell.
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Joe
                    DeMarco <snick13@...>
                    > Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 14:02:45
                    > To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Subject: Re: [G104] M4A2 or
                    A3?
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi
                    Michel,
                    >  
                    > That's a great find!
                    >  
                    > Pierre-Olivier, production numbers would favor that tank being a
                    Pullman M4A2, but I think there's also a possibility that it might be a Federal Machine & Welder. The look of their Shermans may have been identical, except Federal stamped the serial number on the exterior whereas Pullman did not. Also, I have a theory that Pullman was like Fisher & Pacific Car, & after the first month or so, got steady supplies of one piece diffs.
                    >  
                    > Any more pix of that?
                    >  
                    > Joe
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    --------------------------------------------------
                    > From: "Tich"
                    <michelvanloon@...>
                    > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 3:06
                    PM
                    > To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Subject: [G104] M4A2 or
                    A3?
                    >
                    >> Found this pictures of a Sherman in Kiev, Ukraine. Its
                    labeled M4A3, but I'm not sure about that.
                    >
                    >> Pictures:
                    title="http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647478.jpg CTRL + Click to follow link" href="http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647478.jpg">http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647478.jpg

                    > and
                    title="http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647473.jpg CTRL + Click to follow link" href="http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647473.jpg">http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28647473.jpg

                    > &gt; Just to keep my records correct&gt;
                    > &gt;
                    Michel&nbsp;
                    >
                    >
                    >   
                  • Tich
                    Hi Joe According to my translations, it didn t read US Army reps but engineers advised us.... It sems that the rivers in Russia are capable of preserving armor
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 25, 2011
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                      Hi Joe

                      According to my translations, it didn't read US Army reps but engineers advised us....
                      It sems that the rivers in Russia are capable of preserving armor very well, we've seen some remarkable recoverys the last years.
                      I did find another picture of this Sherman witch clearly shows the damage to the turret, and indeed its a turret without pistol port.
                      See: http://v10.lscache4.c.bigcache.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28771109.jpg

                      Michel

                      --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, "Joe DeMarco" <snick13@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Michel,
                      >
                      > Thanks for the additional info. If I've read the translation correctly, US Army reps recommended that they destroy the "tower" ( turret? ) to eliminate danger from a live round stuck in the gun. However, the Ukrainians wanted to preserve it, so they went another way. Human remains were said to be found in the tank, & some members of the four man crew were such recent recruits that they had not yet been issued uniforms. From looking at the original monument photos, I would not have thought the tank had been recovered from a river. It cleaned up good. It appears to have a "no pistol port" turret. If so, in combination with the 3-piece diff, think it would be July or August 1943 production. Hope a dedicated Sherman enthusiast can have a look at it some day.
                      >
                      > A friend recently looked at an M4A2 that is in a park in Moscow. It has glacis pattern similar to the Kiev. That one has an M3 bogie installed on the right front. That could have been cobbled together for the monument, but there is at least one period photo of a Soviet M4A2 with that. The Russians didn't ask for or get a lot of spare parts.
                      >
                      > Joe
                      >
                    • Joe DeMarco
                      Thanks for the confirm of the no pistol port turret, Michel. Over half of the entire 1943 Sherman production would have had those. Too bad the guys
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 25, 2011
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                        Thanks for the confirm of the "no pistol port" turret, Michel.  Over half of the entire 1943 Sherman production would have had those.  Too bad the guys couldn't locate the engine decks & commander's cupola. Otherwise, that tank is very close to "as built," which is extremely rare with surviving Shermans.  Would guess the only thing that was added to that at a depot was the radio. Depot directives "say" the Soviets were supplied with the British #19. Don't know if they asked for those, or if the US held back the SCR 52x series for technology reasons.
                         
                        Michael was asking about surviving Dozer Shermans. I suspect the M4 that was recovered off Omaha Beach is probably the only "complete" surviving example that was actually done during WW II.
                         
                         
                        Remarkable difference in the condition compared with the Kiev! The G logo on the bustle indicates both "no pistol port" turrets were cast by General Steel. The dozer looks to be an ALCO Fall, 1943 production. It's no fluke that it has the full suite of applique mods, compared to the Kiev. As the supply of mod kits entered the pipe line, there was a US combat troops first policy.
                         
                        Joe


                        -------------------------------------------------
                        From: "Tich" <michelvanloon@...>
                        Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 6:22 AM
                        To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: [G104] Re: M4A2 or A3?

                        > Hi Joe
                        >
                        > According to my translations, it didn't
                        read US Army reps but engineers advised us....
                        > It sems that the rivers
                        in Russia are capable of preserving armor very well, we've seen some remarkable recoverys the last years.
                        > I did find another picture of this Sherman
                        witch clearly shows the damage to the turret, and indeed its a turret without pistol port.
                        > See:
                        http://v10.lscache4.c.bigcache.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28771109.jpg
                        >
                        > Michel
                        >
                        > --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, "Joe DeMarco"
                        <snick13@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> Hi Michel,
                        >>
                        >> Thanks for the additional info. If I've read the translation
                        correctly, US Army reps recommended that they destroy the "tower" ( turret? ) to eliminate danger from a live round stuck in the gun. However, the Ukrainians wanted to preserve it, so they went another way.  Human remains were said to be found in the tank, & some members of the four man crew were such recent recruits that they had not yet been issued uniforms. From looking at the original monument photos, I would not have thought the tank had been recovered from a river. It cleaned up good. It appears to have a "no pistol port" turret. If so, in combination with the 3-piece diff, think it would be July or August 1943 production. Hope a dedicated Sherman enthusiast can have a look at it some day.
                        >>
                        >> A friend recently looked at an M4A2 that is in a
                        park in Moscow.  It has glacis pattern similar to the Kiev. That one has an M3 bogie installed on the right front. That could have been cobbled together for the monument, but there is at least one period photo of a Soviet M4A2 with that. The Russians didn't ask for or get a lot of spare parts.
                        >>
                        >> Joe
                      • Michael Lembo
                        Here is a link to a Czech website that just got sent to me, someone uncovered some more photos taken in Czechoslovakia in 1945, there are some 741st Tank Bn.
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 7, 2012
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                          Here is a link to a Czech website that just got sent to me, someone uncovered some more photos taken in Czechoslovakia in 1945, there are some 741st Tank Bn. Shermans in there. I had not seen any of these before either.
                           
                           
                          Let me know if it does not work and I will try forwarding from my hotmail where it was originally sent to.
                           
                          Michael

                          From: Joe DeMarco <snick13@...>
                          To: G104@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 7:04 PM
                          Subject: Re: [G104] Re: M4A2 or A3?

                           
                          Thanks for the confirm of the "no pistol port" turret, Michel.  Over half of the entire 1943 Sherman production would have had those.  Too bad the guys couldn't locate the engine decks & commander's cupola. Otherwise, that tank is very close to "as built," which is extremely rare with surviving Shermans.  Would guess the only thing that was added to that at a depot was the radio. Depot directives "say" the Soviets were supplied with the British #19. Don't know if they asked for those, or if the US held back the SCR 52x series for technology reasons.
                           
                          Michael was asking about surviving Dozer Shermans. I suspect the M4 that was recovered off Omaha Beach is probably the only "complete" surviving example that was actually done during WW II.
                           
                          http://the.shadock.free.fr/Tanks_in_France/ddaywrecks_commes/index.html 
                           
                          Remarkable difference in the condition compared with the Kiev! The G logo on the bustle indicates both "no pistol port" turrets were cast by General Steel. The dozer looks to be an ALCO Fall, 1943 production. It's no fluke that it has the full suite of applique mods, compared to the Kiev. As the supply of mod kits entered the pipe line, there was a US combat troops first policy.
                           
                          Joe


                          -------------------------------------------------
                          From: "Tich" <michelvanloon@...>
                          Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 6:22 AM
                          To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: [G104] Re: M4A2 or A3?

                          > Hi Joe
                          >
                          > According to my translations, it didn't read US Army reps but engineers advised us....
                          > It sems that the rivers in Russia are capable of preserving armor very well, we've seen some remarkable recoverys the last years.
                          > I did find another picture of this Sherman witch clearly shows the damage to the turret, and indeed its a turret without pistol port.
                          > See: http://v10.lscache4.c.bigcache.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/28771109.jpg
                          >
                          > Michel
                          >
                          > --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, "Joe DeMarco" <snick13@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >> Hi Michel,
                          >>
                          >> Thanks for the additional info. If I've read the
                          translation correctly, US Army reps recommended that they destroy the "tower" ( turret? ) to eliminate danger from a live round stuck in the gun. However, the Ukrainians wanted to preserve it, so they went another way.  Human remains were said to be found in the tank, & some members of the four man crew were such recent recruits that they had not yet been issued uniforms. From looking at the original monument photos, I would not have thought the tank had been recovered from a river. It cleaned up good. It appears to have a "no pistol port" turret. If so, in combination with the 3-piece diff, think it would be July or August 1943 production. Hope a dedicated Sherman enthusiast can have a look at it some day.
                          >>
                          >> A friend recently looked at an M4A2 that is in a park in Moscow.  It has glacis pattern similar to the Kiev. That one has an M3 bogie installed on the right front. That could have been cobbled together for the
                          monument, but there is at least one period photo of a Soviet M4A2 with that. The Russians didn't ask for or get a lot of spare parts.
                          >>
                          >> Joe


                        • Joe DeMarco
                          Hi Michael, One of the Czech photos (attached) shows an M4A3(76)VVSS with what appears to be the USA Number chalked on. Think it might be something like USA
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 8, 2012
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                            Hi Michael,
                             
                            One of the Czech photos (attached) shows an M4A3(76)VVSS with what appears to be the USA Number chalked on. Think it might be something like USA 30116073 or thereabouts. That would have been made by Fisher Body. Without a visible registration number, the telltale clues of a Fisher M4A3(76) would be the solid roadwheels & the "plain" drive sprocket, neither of which were used by Chrysler.  Fisher only made 525 M4A3(76)s, all with VVSS, & a number of them appear to show up in the ETO & MTO in late March, 1945. I've attached another shot of one with the reg number chalked on, simply described as 3rd Army, Oberstein, Germany 3/31/45. The depots often masked the painted on reg number, but it can be seen as 30116041. The soldiers in this photo appear to be in the final stages of processing this tank for distribution. Perhaps the 741st got it & gave it their handlebar treatment? There's a faded date chalked on, 12/6/44, which I suspect was done during processing in the US.
                             
                            Trent, if you are listening in, the shipping code on this tank is an example with the additional phrase "STO" mentioned in one of the shipping docs you came across. It translates to..."If the war in Europe is over, STOP shipment of this item." 
                            I suppose the only use for this type of trivia would be if an owner uncovered shipping code with the STO under the paint layers, it might be said, "This tank was preparing to be, or had been shipped to Europe in 1945."
                             
                            Joe
                             

                            Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 10:07 AM
                            Subject: Re: [G104] New Sherman photos

                            Here is a link to a Czech website that just got sent to me, someone uncovered some more photos taken in Czechoslovakia in 1945, there are some 741st Tank Bn. Shermans in there. I had not seen any of these before either.
                             
                             
                            Let me know if it does not work and I will try forwarding from my hotmail where it was originally sent to.
                             
                            Michael

                             
                          • Michael Lembo
                            Hi Joe,   I was surprised to see the bumper numbers painted on a lighter colored strip, the way the Army does that now. I had not seen that on any other WW2
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jan 8, 2012
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                              Hi Joe,
                                I was surprised to see the bumper numbers painted on a lighter colored strip, the way the Army does that now. I had not seen that on any other WW2 US armor.  I attached a photo of another Sherman with "handlebars" on a street in Pilsen. I got this one from the Patton museum in Pilsen and it has already been published in at least one Czech book. They usually credit it as a 16th AD tank, but after seeing those recent photos I think this one must also belong to the 741st.
                               
                              Michael

                              From: Joe DeMarco <snick13@...>
                              To: G104@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2012 6:47 PM
                              Subject: Re: [G104] New Sherman photos

                               
                              Hi Michael,
                               
                              One of the Czech photos (attached) shows an M4A3(76)VVSS with what appears to be the USA Number chalked on. Think it might be something like USA 30116073 or thereabouts. That would have been made by Fisher Body. Without a visible registration number, the telltale clues of a Fisher M4A3(76) would be the solid roadwheels & the "plain" drive sprocket, neither of which were used by Chrysler.  Fisher only made 525 M4A3(76)s, all with VVSS, & a number of them appear to show up in the ETO & MTO in late March, 1945. I've attached another shot of one with the reg number chalked on, simply described as 3rd Army, Oberstein, Germany 3/31/45. The depots often masked the painted on reg number, but it can be seen as 30116041. The soldiers in this photo appear to be in the final stages of processing this tank for distribution. Perhaps the 741st got it & gave it their handlebar treatment? There's a faded date chalked on, 12/6/44, which I suspect was done during processing in the US.
                               
                              Trent, if you are listening in, the shipping code on this tank is an example with the additional phrase "STO" mentioned in one of the shipping docs you came across. It translates to..."If the war in Europe is over, STOP shipment of this item." 
                              I suppose the only use for this type of trivia would be if an owner uncovered shipping code with the STO under the paint layers, it might be said, "This tank was preparing to be, or had been shipped to Europe in 1945."
                               
                              Joe
                               

                              Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 10:07 AM
                              Subject: Re: [G104] New Sherman photos

                              Here is a link to a Czech website that just got sent to me, someone uncovered some more photos taken in Czechoslovakia in 1945, there are some 741st Tank Bn. Shermans in there. I had not seen any of these before either.
                               
                              http://www.detektorweb.cz/index.4me?s=show&lang=1&i=35066&mm=1&xb=6&vd=1
                               
                              Let me know if it does not work and I will try forwarding from my hotmail where it was originally sent to.
                               
                              Michael

                               


                            • Trent Telenko
                              Joe, Ten of the E12-7R1 in M4A1 flame tanks I an researching were in a frustrated by V-E Day shipment to the ETO. If any of the 2-3 survivors have that
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jan 10, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Joe,
                                 
                                Ten of the E12-7R1 in M4A1 flame tanks I an researching were in a frustrated by V-E Day shipment to the ETO.
                                 
                                If any of the 2-3 survivors have that "STO" code, they were in that batch of 10.
                                 
                                I  strongly doubt that is the case, as the 17 strong  San Francisco E12-7R1 shipment RP Hunnicutt spoke of included those ten plus seven more...and they got stuck at Guam for two months due to a transport ship casualty.  They arrived in Manila in early Sept 1945.
                                 
                                I have the end of war locations of three E12-7R1 prototypes, which most likely survived the scrap yard, marked as at the following places:
                                    1) Ft. Hood, Tx-- Project Sphinx field exercises,
                                    2) Ft. Knox, Ky -- Project Sphinx related defoliant research project and
                                    3) One at the Edgewood Arsenal, MD, with the sole E13R1-13R2. 
                                 
                                Those three are the most likely candidates for the surviving E12-7R1's.
                                 
                                From what I have been able to gather, the US Army quietly dumped most surviving rebuilt M4A1 in the stateside inventory -- which is what all the 151 E12-7R1 flame throwers were installed in -- into the MAP program after the war, when extent of the pre-1944 problems with their cast armor protection were uncovered. 
                                 
                                The US Army was very much aware of this armor problem at the time, accoring to a 1947 document I bought from Merrium Press.


                                From: Joe DeMarco <snick13@...>
                                To: G104@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sun, January 8, 2012 11:47:45 AM
                                Subject: Re: [G104] New Sherman photos

                                 

                                Hi Michael,
                                 
                                One of the Czech photos (attached) shows an M4A3(76)VVSS with what appears to be the USA Number chalked on. Think it might be something like USA 30116073 or thereabouts. That would have been made by Fisher Body. Without a visible registration number, the telltale clues of a Fisher M4A3(76) would be the solid roadwheels & the "plain" drive sprocket, neither of which were used by Chrysler.  Fisher only made 525 M4A3(76)s, all with VVSS, & a number of them appear to show up in the ETO & MTO in late March, 1945. I've attached another shot of one with the reg number chalked on, simply described as 3rd Army, Oberstein, Germany 3/31/45. The depots often masked the painted on reg number, but it can be seen as 30116041. The soldiers in this photo appear to be in the final stages of processing this tank for distribution. Perhaps the 741st got it & gave it their handlebar treatment? There's a faded date chalked on, 12/6/44, which I suspect was done during processing in the US.
                                 
                                Trent, if you are listening in, the shipping code on this tank is an example with the additional phrase "STO" mentioned in one of the shipping docs you came across. It translates to..."If the war in Europe is over, STOP shipment of this item." 
                                I suppose the only use for this type of trivia would be if an owner uncovered shipping code with the STO under the paint layers, it might be said, "This tank was preparing to be, or had been shipped to Europe in 1945."
                                 
                                Joe
                                 

                                Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 10:07 AM
                                Subject: Re: [G104] New Sherman photos

                                Here is a link to a Czech website that just got sent to me, someone uncovered some more photos taken in Czechoslovakia in 1945, there are some 741st Tank Bn. Shermans in there. I had not seen any of these before either.
                                 
                                http://www.detektorweb.cz/index.4me?s=show&lang=1&i=35066&mm=1&xb=6&vd=1
                                 
                                Let me know if it does not work and I will try forwarding from my hotmail where it was originally sent to.
                                 
                                Michael

                                 
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