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Re: [G104] M4A3 Grafenwohr

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  • Michael Lembo
    I forgot to mention before that the gunner s periscope aperture is also covered with scrap metal, you can see it in photo #30 ... From: Joe DeMarco
    Message 1 of 58 , Nov 17, 2011
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      I forgot to mention before that the gunner's periscope aperture is also covered with scrap metal, you can see it in photo #30

      --- On Wed, 11/16/11, Joe DeMarco <snick13@...> wrote:

      From: Joe DeMarco <snick13@...>
      Subject: Re: [G104] M4A3 Grafenwohr
      To: G104@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 5:41 AM

       
      > Do you have any production figures for M4A3's with the recycled T23 program turrets that have the lifting eye next to the loader's hatch like 44220 in Graf?
       
      Not really. It's not like something as minor as that was documented, at least not that I could find in the Ordnance files at the Archives. From counting heads based on the examination of period photos & surviving examples, I would say that the XLR turrets appear to have been mixed in with the first Chrysler M4A3(76) Production Order for 700 units. If I was advising a modeler who wanted an appropriate registration number range for the XLR, I would suggest 3099762 thru 30100461. I'm assuming the Graf has its original turret, & that would be the highest serial number I have recorded of an XLR M4A3(76). As mentioned earlier, that would have been USA 30100454.
       
      The transition from the one piece rear most engine deck panel wasn't documented either, which is why I was bugging you to look at that on the Graf.
       
      Pressed Steel Car began building M4A1(76)s in Jan 1944, & it took them 3 months to put the vent on their turrets, whereas Chrysler retrofitted them on the from the start, & had a better split hatch set up to boot.
       
      Joe
       

      Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:12 PM
      Subject: Re: [G104] M4A3 Grafenwohr

      Joe,
         Do you have any production figures for M4A3's with the recycled T23 program turrets that have the lifting eye next to the loader's hatch like 44220 in Graf?  I can't imagine too many of those could have survived to be around today.  Here is a photo of 44220's loader's hatch & T23 lifting eye.  Should have photos of the M4A3 in Vilseck sent to me soon.
       
      Michael

      --- On Tue, 11/15/11, Joe DeMarco <snick13@...> wrote:

      From: Joe DeMarco <snick13@...>
      Subject: Re: [G104] M4A3 Grafenwohr
      To: G104@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, November 15, 2011, 4:02 PM

       
      Hi Brian.

      Hope you've been well.

      >I don't have photos yet, but I have a description of the M4A3(76) in Vilseck.

      During your visit to Vilseck, do you recall seeing the M4A3(76) that Michael mentioned? Could that be another "new" surviving Sherman? From his description, that seems like it could have been in Europe during WW II.

      A correspondent examined an M4A3(75)W (S/N 49047) at the 1st AD Museum in Baumholder. That one looked like a possible WW II Sherman to me.

      Also, about 10 years ago now, Chaplain Goode posted a couple tiny pix of an M4A3(75)W he saw during a visit to Schweinfort, IIRC. It had a patch on the right front side of the hull. That seemed like another possible WW II combat vet.

      A soldier whose unit is leaving Iraq recently reported he saw a Sherman, possibly a 105, at Camp Virginia (Kuwait). It doesn't seem to be the one in the attached, judging by his written description. So that might be another "new" one? I would assume that any US built WW II AFVs that Allied troops came across in Iraq over the last ten years had been captured from the Iranians during the Iran Iraq War. Iran is stated to have received 3 M4 series 105s. A few years ago, the Patton Museum acquired M4A3(105)HVSS (S/N 72912) from there. A couple overhead shots from a helicopter(?) were posted during the first Gulf War, & quite a few M36 series Tank Destroyers could be seen in some kind of compound. Iran is stated to have received 18 M36 series, so darn near all of them might be in that photo. IIRC, someone there said they were slated to be destroyed along with the more modern AFVs. That may have come about judging by some posted pix of an M36B1 that was in the process of being cut up for scrap. That's a shame, & it would be good if the Sherman at Camp Virginia could be spared such a fate. Iran is also said to have received 42 76mm M4 series & a half dozen retrievers as MDAP, but none of them seemed to have showed up during all of this.

      Joe


      Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 12:50 PM
      Subject: Re: [G104] M4A3 Grafenwohr

      Joe,
       
        if you guys need info on the Sherman from Buamholder let me know and i;ll dig up the email address for mr Ruhnke who was the museum courrater there.  He is currently in charge of the FY Carson museum
       
      Brian



    • Kurt Laughlin
      Remember, it was *intended* to be shipped in May. It may not have been shipped until 1945 . . . As a dozer, it could’ve been used for rubble clearance and
      Message 58 of 58 , Jul 7, 2012
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        Remember, it was *intended* to be shipped in May.

         

        It may not have been shipped until 1945 . . . As a dozer, it could’ve been used for rubble clearance and might have hit some UXO . . . Just guessing.

         

        Ah, 1952 – When kids were encouraged to climb all over tanks and original Wehrmacht field caps were a dime a dozen J

         

        KL  

         

        From: G104@yahoogroups.com [mailto:G104@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Lembo
        Sent: Friday, July 06, 2012 11:50 PM
        To: G104@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [G104] Shipping codes

         

         

        Thanks Kurt,

           The M47's code does have something after the LD, just like the Dozer M4A3, it just is not readable. The time priority code probably is H, I was thinking Roman numerals were being used there, since the ORDII is using Roman numerals.  Attached is the 1952 photo.  Now I have to wonder how a tank built in June has a May delivery code?  Is there any way to figure a year out of that code? I don't see how it could be May 45, If that was the case then who blew up the front end of the tank and wore all the rubber off the front bogie wheels then discarded it as a monument by 1949? 

          Another odd thing about that tank, the brake access covers in the driver/BOG compartment are removed and left laying in the dvr compartment. The steering brakes behind the covers are drenched in oil.  The only explanation I have for that is the tank was probably sitting in a depot after the incident that caused all the damage with the brakes locked up.  Someone may have gone into the transmission to unlock the brakes to move the tank and poured oil on them to keep them from locking up again. No way of knowing when it happened though, could have been as recently as when the tank was moved to Graf from Vilseck, though I have not been able to find out when that was either.

         

        Michael

         

        From: Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
        To: G104@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2012 2:35 AM
        Subject: RE: [G104] Shipping codes

         

         

        Hi:

         

        “I” meant May 1 – 15; the code was alphabetic.  For example, Jan 1-15 was “A”, Dec 16 – 31 was “Z”.  (“O” and “V” weren’t used.)

         

        On the CLAY code, there should be something after the LD, unless there was only item on the requisition.  There was  no “II” time designator, but as an alternative (when shipments left more frequently than twice per month) “two digits” could be used, which I take to mean Arabic numerals.  The indicators were doubled “for all shipments the importance of which necessitates positive shipment in the requested period.”  So, that could be May 1 -15 “and we’re serious” or maybe a blurry H . . .

         

        KL

         

        From: G104@yahoogroups.com [mailto:G104@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Lembo
        Sent: Friday, July 06, 2012 3:21 PM
        To: G104@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [G104] Shipping codes

         

         

        Thanks Kurt,

           Every shred of info helps with this one.  The time priority indicator "I", means only May 1-15 or is it 1-15 of any month with May given as an example?  That tank was built in June 44, so it was looking like late summer 44 as the likely time of arrival in the ETO.  In reference to the question about post-war use of those codes, I found an Oct.52 photo showing the same type of code on the back of an M47 in Germany with 4th ID.  It looks like CLAY-II-ORDII-ATC 329 LD 

         

        Michael

         

         

         

        From: Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
        To: G104@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 4:54 PM
        Subject: [G104] Shipping codes

         

         

        From: G104@yahoogroups.com [mailto:G104@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Lembo

        . . .  So the complete code is: GLUE-I-ORDII-ADV-SD341LD92 with the 9 questionable. . . .

         

         

        I finally found my Army Marking Directive (TM 38-414, May 45) that explains (in general) what this code means.

         

        GLUE – a coded destination.  Always four letters, either a word or pronounceable combination.

         

        I – Time priority indicator.  This indicates the expected half-month period when the shipment is expected to be forwarded overseas.  I means May 1 to 15.

         

        ORDII – Shipping service and class of supply; Ordnance class II.

         

        ADV- Consignee combination.  Indicates special receipt handling or disposition.  No info except that it was assigned by the theatre rather than CONUS because it doesn’t start with an S.

         

        SD341LD92 – Identification of Separate Shipment.  Three parts, actually:

        ·         SD341 – The 41st requisition in series D, initiated by the Chief of Ordnance.

        ·         LD – Depot making direct shipment overseas, in this case Lima Ordnance Depot, aka Lima Tank Depot.

        ·         92 – Transportation unit number.  Probably indicates the 92nd vehicle shipped under the requisition, but could be the 92nd railroad car carrying vehicles.

         

        Hope that helps,

        KL

         

         

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