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Re: Researching Sherman & Stuart Main Armament Flame Tanks

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  • TRENT T
    Is there someplace you can get a copy of OCM 27569 from? It is not on DTIC, for example, as they cut off at 1964 for their on-line collections.
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 14, 2010
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      Is there someplace you can get a copy of "OCM 27569" from?

      It is not on DTIC, for example, as they cut off at 1964 for their on-line collections.

      --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, Don Moriarty <donmor3@...> wrote:
      >
      > Trent
      >  
      > For several years I have been researching into the M4A3E2 Assault tank.  I'm not sure this will be of any assistance but it seems to be along the lines that you are 'digging'.
      >  
      > In May 45 (OCM 27569) The Tank, Flamethrower, T33 program was initiated.  It was designed to base on Medium M4.  20 were initially authorized but only 3 constructed.  Using 3 modified M4A3E2 (w/HVSS) the pilots were armed with the 75mm, M6 main gun & the E20-20 Flame Gun.
      >  
      > APG had one of the surviving T33's but it appearently was scrapped.
      >  
      > The T33 program lead to the T68 Self Propelled Flame Thrower in the late 40's /early 50's.  Two pilots were built (both former T33 Flame Tanks) and tested using the Canadian E33 flame Gun which was mounted in the Bow position as this vehicle was a turretless M4A3E2 (w/HVSS) 
      >  
      > Both testbed programs were tested extensively at APG & Ft Knox.
      >  
      > Hope that helps
      > Regards
      > Don
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Don Moriarty
      My information came from characteristic data sheets on the T33 & T68.    I ll dig around to see if I have the actual OCM document.  I ve been lucky enough
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 14, 2010
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        My information came from characteristic data sheets on the T33 & T68. 
         
        I'll dig around to see if I have the actual OCM document.  I've been lucky enough to obtain digitalized images of both the Armor Force Board testing and APG testing on both test programs and I do believe there may be some associated documents on each vehicle.
         
        I have some photos & info posted here:
        http://s44.photobucket.com/albums/f25/Donmor3/Tank%20Info/M4A3E2%20Jumbo%20Assault%20tank/
         
        Regards
        Don
         
         
        --- On Sun, 11/14/10, TRENT T <trent_telenko@...> wrote:


        From: TRENT T <trent_telenko@...>
        Subject: [G104] Re: Researching Sherman & Stuart Main Armament Flame Tanks
        To: G104@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, November 14, 2010, 8:39 PM


         



        Is there someplace you can get a copy of "OCM 27569" from?

        It is not on DTIC, for example, as they cut off at 1964 for their on-line collections.

        --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, Don Moriarty <donmor3@...> wrote:
        >
        > Trent
        >  
        > For several years I have been researching into the M4A3E2 Assault tank.  I'm not sure this will be of any assistance but it seems to be along the lines that you are 'digging'.
        >  
        > In May 45 (OCM 27569) The Tank, Flamethrower, T33 program was initiated.  It was designed to base on Medium M4.  20 were initially authorized but only 3 constructed.  Using 3 modified M4A3E2 (w/HVSS) the pilots were armed with the 75mm, M6 main gun & the E20-20 Flame Gun.
        >  
        > APG had one of the surviving T33's but it appearently was scrapped.
        >  
        > The T33 program lead to the T68 Self Propelled Flame Thrower in the late 40's /early 50's.  Two pilots were built (both former T33 Flame Tanks) and tested using the Canadian E33 flame Gun which was mounted in the Bow position as this vehicle was a turretless M4A3E2 (w/HVSS) 
        >  
        > Both testbed programs were tested extensively at APG & Ft Knox.
        >  
        > Hope that helps
        > Regards
        > Don
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >











        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Trent Telenko
        If you can post or e-mail those data sheets, it would be appreciated.   If for nothing else it might shed some light on the two flame throwers on these
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 15, 2010
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          If you can post or e-mail those data sheets, it would be appreciated.
           
          If for nothing else it might shed some light on the two flame throwers on these
          vehicles.



          ________________________________
          From: Don Moriarty <donmor3@...>
          To: G104@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 9:49:20 PM
          Subject: Re: [G104] Re: Researching Sherman & Stuart Main Armament Flame Tanks

           
          My information came from characteristic data sheets on the T33 & T68. 
           
          I'll dig around to see if I have the actual OCM document.  I've been lucky
          enough to obtain digitalized images of both the Armor Force Board testing and
          APG testing on both test programs and I do believe there may be some associated
          documents on each vehicle.
           
          I have some photos & info posted here:
          http://s44.photobucket.com/albums/f25/Donmor3/Tank%20Info/M4A3E2%20Jumbo%20Assault%20tank/

           
          Regards
          Don
           
           
          --- On Sun, 11/14/10, TRENT T <trent_telenko@...> wrote:

          From: TRENT T <trent_telenko@...>
          Subject: [G104] Re: Researching Sherman & Stuart Main Armament Flame Tanks
          To: G104@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, November 14, 2010, 8:39 PM

           

          Is there someplace you can get a copy of "OCM 27569" from?

          It is not on DTIC, for example, as they cut off at 1964 for their on-line
          collections.

          --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, Don Moriarty <donmor3@...> wrote:
          >
          > Trent
          >  
          > For several years I have been researching into the M4A3E2 Assault tank.  I'm
          >not sure this will be of any assistance but it seems to be along the lines that
          >you are 'digging'.
          >  
          > In May 45 (OCM 27569) The Tank, Flamethrower, T33 program was initiated.  It
          >was designed to base on Medium M4.  20 were initially authorized but only 3
          >constructed.  Using 3 modified M4A3E2 (w/HVSS) the pilots were armed with the
          >75mm, M6 main gun & the E20-20 Flame Gun.
          >  
          > APG had one of the surviving T33's but it appearently was scrapped.
          >  
          > The T33 program lead to the T68 Self Propelled Flame Thrower in the late 40's
          >/early 50's.  Two pilots were built (both former T33 Flame Tanks) and tested
          >using the Canadian E33 flame Gun which was mounted in the Bow position as this
          >vehicle was a turretless M4A3E2 (w/HVSS) 
          >  
          > Both testbed programs were tested extensively at APG & Ft Knox.
          >  
          > Hope that helps
          > Regards
          > Don
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Kurt Laughlin
          Hi Trent: Try the Army Heritage Center in Carlisle, PA: http://www.carlisle.army.mil/ahec/index.cfm I would suggest a visit. My technique for searching OCMs
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 15, 2010
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            Hi Trent:

            Try the Army Heritage Center in Carlisle, PA:

            http://www.carlisle.army.mil/ahec/index.cfm

            I would suggest a visit. My technique for searching OCMs is to get as many
            external references as possible (like Hunnicutt) and start withe the latest.
            Each usually references the starting OCM and frequently others. Many
            unknown paths can be explored this way. Flamethrowers were under the
            cognizance of the Chemical Warfare Service, and they had their own
            administration.

            KL

            (BTW, OCMs are Ordnance Committee Meeting items.)

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: TRENT T
            To: G104@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 9:39 PM
            Subject: [G104] Re: Researching Sherman & Stuart Main Armament Flame Tanks



            Is there someplace you can get a copy of "OCM 27569" from?

            It is not on DTIC, for example, as they cut off at 1964 for their on-line
            collections.
          • Trent Telenko
            Thank you for the carlisle link.  It is turning out to be very useful. ... I am following a similar strategy via using the Ordnance Standard vehicle catalogs.
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 18, 2010
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              Thank you for the carlisle link.  It is turning out to be very useful.

              As for this advice:

              >>
              >>My technique for searching OCMs is to get as many
              >>external references as possible (like Hunnicutt) and start withe the latest.
              >>Each usually references the starting OCM and frequently others.

              I am following a similar strategy via using the Ordnance Standard vehicle
              catalogs. I have a copy of the Ordnance 1960 SV-1 for the M67 (M48 based) flame
              tank and it has given me a number of OCMs to follow up.

              BTW, thank you for decoding "OCM."




              ________________________________
              From: Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
              To: G104@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 7:01:36 PM
              Subject: Re: [G104] Re: Researching Sherman & Stuart Main Armament Flame Tanks

               
              Hi Trent:

              Try the Army Heritage Center in Carlisle, PA:

              http://www.carlisle.army.mil/ahec/index.cfm

              I would suggest a visit. My technique for searching OCMs is to get as many
              external references as possible (like Hunnicutt) and start withe the latest.
              Each usually references the starting OCM and frequently others. Many
              unknown paths can be explored this way. Flamethrowers were under the
              cognizance of the Chemical Warfare Service, and they had their own
              administration.

              KL

              (BTW, OCMs are Ordnance Committee Meeting items.)

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: TRENT T
              To: G104@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 9:39 PM
              Subject: [G104] Re: Researching Sherman & Stuart Main Armament Flame Tanks

              Is there someplace you can get a copy of "OCM 27569" from?

              It is not on DTIC, for example, as they cut off at 1964 for their on-line
              collections.







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Trent Telenko
              I finally obtained a copy of the April 1948 USNI Proceedings article FLAME THROWING SEABEES by Col George F. Unmacht. A lot is starting to make sense regards
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 21, 2010
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                I finally obtained a copy of the April 1948 USNI Proceedings article "FLAME
                THROWING SEABEES" by Col George F. Unmacht.

                A lot is starting to make sense regards what you really call a Hawaii built
                Sherman flame thrower tank.

                There were eight M4A3 hulled VVSS USMC flame tanks used at Iwo Jima.

                There were 54 composite hulled M4 (not M4A1) tanks with VVSS suspension used by
                the US Army at Okinawa.

                Col Unmacht's 43rd Chemical Warfare Laboratory referred to these tanks as the
                the "POA-CWS "75" H-1 H-2 with a fuel capacity of 290 gallons, per
                "FLAMETHROWING SEABEES."


                POA stood for "Pacific Ocean Area." CWS stood for Chemical Warfare Service.

                The "75" was for the 75 mm gun that the flame thrower displaced.

                The "H-1" and "H-2" were "Hawaii One and Hawaii Two for "fuel group" (the fuel
                tanks and plumbing) and the adapted Ronson flame gun. I don't know which stands
                for what. (I think I will need to break down and hire an archivist to research
                the US Army Forces Mid Pacific CWS files in the National Archives to determine
                which is which.)

                The Marines in their Iwo Jima after action reports referred to them as "CB Mk-1"
                for SeaBee Mark One. This was shortened to "M-1" in translations of captured
                Japanese documents referring to American Sherman flame thrower tanks in action
                on Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

                Later on, the various Army clerk typists for the multiple chemical officer
                reports in volumes one and two of the US Army 10th Army Okinawa/Operation
                Iceberg Action Report chewed up and spit out the 43rd Chemical Laboratory's
                "POW-CWS "75" H-1 H-2" designation several different ways.


                Post-WW2, when Col McKinney wrote up the development history of Hawaiian
                Mechanized flame throwers in the Draft 1949 Chemical Corps Historical Study No
                4, "Portable Flame Thrower Operations in World War II" in the United States, he
                chose one of those 10th Army Action Reports as definitive "POA-CWS-H1."

                When Chemical Corps WW2 Green Book histories LABORATORY TO BATTLEFIELD and
                CHEMICALS IN COMBAT both came out in 1965 and spoke to the development of the
                Hawaii flame throwing M4's. They both used the POA-CWS-H1 from "Portable Flame
                Thrower Operations..." and not the 43rd Chemical Warfare Laboratory provisional
                designation.

                Since Col Unmacht retired in the late 1940's and died in 1954. He was not around
                to correct this.

                You can trace who used which documents in writing up their WW2 Sherman Flame
                tank development histories by whether they include the full "POW-CWS "75" H-1
                H-2" versus the "POA-CWS-H1."

                Based on that standard, the best published researchers on the Flame Sherman's
                are Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis.

                I have yet to find the 43rd Chemical Laboratory's full and complete designation
                for the 70 odd dual main armament Ronson flame gun and 75mm/105mm gun
                "POA-CWS-H5."

                What I do know is that the "POA-CWS-H5" came in several versions. Pictures show
                M4A3 (HVSS), M4A3 (HVSS) versions and there was recently a M4A3 (VVSS) version
                pulled from the woods of Camp Lejune (sp?) NC.



                The odd duck is the Chemical Corps museum M4A1 (VVSS) with a 75mm gun and a
                flame gun. It has a early Lima Locomotive Works production number and the
                Evansville Indiana Arms Deport rebuild armor kit.

                See:


                7321 M4A1(75) Lima LW 3058833 M42B1 conversion, R/N from Accession Record; S/N
                calculated from RN Ft Leonard Wood, MO USA

                The Chemical Corps museum does not have documentation on this tank prior to
                1982. When the earlier Maryland Chemical Corps museum was shut down in 1970.
                This tank went to the Ordnance Museum at APG and went back to the new Ft Leonard
                Woodmuseum minus the earlier documentation.

                I strongly suspect that this tank *IS NOT* a POA-CWS-H5.

                I think we are looking at a development version of the CWS M5-4
                (E12-7R1)/Ordnance M42B1 that has a 75mm gun/Flame gun dual armament to match
                that of the POA-CWS-H5 that the 43rd Chemical Laboratory flame thrower group
                produced.

                Likely had the production of the 75 mm/flame gun dual armament would have been
                cut into production after the 150 CWS M5-4 (E12-7R1)/Ordnance M42B1 built by the
                end of WW2.

                The way to prove this would be to open up 7321 and see if it has a Ronson flame
                gun or an E7R1 flame gun. The E7R1 flame gun has a 360 degree traverse O-ring
                hydraulic set up that the Ronson flame gun does not.




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Trent Telenko
                Grrr... This passage should have read as follows: What I do know is that the POA-CWS-H5 came in several versions. Pictures show M4A3 HVSS, M4A3 (105mm) HVSS
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 21, 2010
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                  Grrr...

                  This passage should have read as follows:

                  What I do know is that the "POA-CWS-H5" came in several versions. Pictures show
                  M4A3 HVSS, M4A3 (105mm) HVSS versions and there was recently a M4A3 VVSS version
                  pulled from the woods of Camp Lejune (sp?) NC.





                  ________________________________
                  From: Trent Telenko <trent_telenko@...>
                  To: G104@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sun, November 21, 2010 12:01:44 PM
                  Subject: [G104] Researching Hawaiian Sherman Main Armament Flame Tanks


                  I finally obtained a copy of the April 1948 USNI Proceedings article "FLAME
                  THROWING SEABEES" by Col George F. Unmacht.

                  A lot is starting to make sense regards what you really call a Hawaii built
                  Sherman flame thrower tank.

                  There were eight M4A3 hulled VVSS USMC flame tanks used at Iwo Jima.

                  There were 54 composite hulled M4 (not M4A1) tanks with VVSS suspension used by
                  the US Army at Okinawa.

                  Col Unmacht's 43rd Chemical Warfare Laboratory referred to these tanks as the
                  the "POA-CWS "75" H-1 H-2 with a fuel capacity of 290 gallons, per
                  "FLAMETHROWING SEABEES."

                  POA stood for "Pacific Ocean Area." CWS stood for Chemical Warfare Service.

                  The "75" was for the 75 mm gun that the flame thrower displaced.

                  The "H-1" and "H-2" were "Hawaii One and Hawaii Two for "fuel group" (the fuel
                  tanks and plumbing) and the adapted Ronson flame gun. I don't know which stands

                  for what. (I think I will need to break down and hire an archivist to research
                  the US Army Forces Mid Pacific CWS files in the National Archives to determine
                  which is which.)

                  The Marines in their Iwo Jima after action reports referred to them as "CB Mk-1"

                  for SeaBee Mark One. This was shortened to "M-1" in translations of captured
                  Japanese documents referring to American Sherman flame thrower tanks in action
                  on Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

                  Later on, the various Army clerk typists for the multiple chemical officer
                  reports in volumes one and two of the US Army 10th Army Okinawa/Operation
                  Iceberg Action Report chewed up and spit out the 43rd Chemical Laboratory's
                  "POW-CWS "75" H-1 H-2" designation several different ways.

                  Post-WW2, when Col McKinney wrote up the development history of Hawaiian
                  Mechanized flame throwers in the Draft 1949 Chemical Corps Historical Study No
                  4, "Portable Flame Thrower Operations in World War II" in the United States, he
                  chose one of those 10th Army Action Reports as definitive "POA-CWS-H1."

                  When Chemical Corps WW2 Green Book histories LABORATORY TO BATTLEFIELD and
                  CHEMICALS IN COMBAT both came out in 1965 and spoke to the development of the
                  Hawaii flame throwing M4's. They both used the POA-CWS-H1 from "Portable Flame
                  Thrower Operations..." and not the 43rd Chemical Warfare Laboratory provisional
                  designation.

                  Since Col Unmacht retired in the late 1940's and died in 1954. He was not around

                  to correct this.

                  You can trace who used which documents in writing up their WW2 Sherman Flame
                  tank development histories by whether they include the full "POW-CWS "75" H-1
                  H-2" versus the "POA-CWS-H1."

                  Based on that standard, the best published researchers on the Flame Sherman's
                  are Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis.

                  I have yet to find the 43rd Chemical Laboratory's full and complete designation
                  for the 70 odd dual main armament Ronson flame gun and 75mm/105mm gun
                  "POA-CWS-H5."

                  What I do know is that the "POA-CWS-H5" came in several versions. Pictures show

                  M4A3 (HVSS), M4A3 (HVSS) versions and there was recently a M4A3 (VVSS) version
                  pulled from the woods of Camp Lejune (sp?) NC.

                  The odd duck is the Chemical Corps museum M4A1 (VVSS) with a 75mm gun and a
                  flame gun. It has a early Lima Locomotive Works production number and the
                  Evansville Indiana Arms Deport rebuild armor kit.

                  See:

                  7321 M4A1(75) Lima LW 3058833 M42B1 conversion, R/N from Accession Record; S/N
                  calculated from RN Ft Leonard Wood, MO USA

                  The Chemical Corps museum does not have documentation on this tank prior to
                  1982. When the earlier Maryland Chemical Corps museum was shut down in 1970.
                  This tank went to the Ordnance Museum at APG and went back to the new Ft Leonard

                  Woodmuseum minus the earlier documentation.

                  I strongly suspect that this tank *IS NOT* a POA-CWS-H5.

                  I think we are looking at a development version of the CWS M5-4
                  (E12-7R1)/Ordnance M42B1 that has a 75mm gun/Flame gun dual armament to match
                  that of the POA-CWS-H5 that the 43rd Chemical Laboratory flame thrower group
                  produced.

                  Likely had the production of the 75 mm/flame gun dual armament would have been
                  cut into production after the 150 CWS M5-4 (E12-7R1)/Ordnance M42B1 built by the

                  end of WW2.

                  The way to prove this would be to open up 7321 and see if it has a Ronson flame
                  gun or an E7R1 flame gun. The E7R1 flame gun has a 360 degree traverse O-ring
                  hydraulic set up that the Ronson flame gun does not.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Trent Telenko
                  Well, it looks like the H-1 in the 43rd Chemical Laboratory s POW-CWS 75 H-1 H-2 designation stood for CB-H1 or Construction Battalion Hawaii One. I
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 22, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Well, it looks like the "H-1" in the 43rd Chemical Laboratory's "POW-CWS "75"
                    H-1 H-2" designation stood for "CB-H1" or Construction Battalion Hawaii One.

                    I managed to find and see snippets from an article titled "New Tanks for Old --
                    The Story of the All-American Flame-Throwing Tank" via Google Books.

                    This was the snippet:

                    >It was named "CB-H1" (Construction Battalion Hawaiian One). It was mounted in an
                    >M4 tank
                    >
                    >and christened Confused Buster: A week later it was demonstrated by Seabees
                    >before high
                    >
                    >ranking officers of the Army,...

                    The article is is on pages 51-52 of the 1948 US NAVAL CIVIL ENGINEER BULLETIN
                    Vol 2.

                    It has the whole story of Hawaiian flame tanks -- M3A1 Satan, M4/M4A3 "POW-CWS
                    "75" H-1 H-2" and possibly the POA-CWS-H5 -- as told from the US Navy's
                    perspective.

                    This article seems to be the one McKinney, the Chemical Corps Green book
                    historians, and R.P. Hunnicutt missed in writing the Sherman flame tank
                    development histories.

                    The Dallas Public Library only goes back to 1960 on this Navy periodical, but it
                    looks like the Univ. of Texas in Austin Library goes back that far.

                    I'll update when I can get a copy.





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Joe DeMarco
                    ... Trent, I think you are confusing the M42B1 at Ft Leonard Wood with the M4A1 they call POA-CWS-H5. Both of those were once at APG. Good luck finding the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 23, 2010
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                      >The odd duck is the Chemical Corps museum M4A1 (VVSS) with a 75mm gun and a
                      >flame gun. It has a early Lima Locomotive Works production number and the
                      >Evansville Indiana Arms Deport rebuild armor kit.

                      >7321 M4A1(75) Lima LW 3058833 M42B1 conversion, R/N from Accession Record;
                      >S/N calculated from RN Ft Leonard Wood, MO USA


                      Trent, I think you are confusing the M42B1 at Ft Leonard Wood with the M4A1
                      they call "POA-CWS-H5." Both of those were once at APG. Good luck finding
                      the test reports. In any case, the M42B1 is the one originally built by
                      Lima. The one with the 75mm gun/Flame gun dual armament was obviously made
                      by Pressed Steel Car originally. It was either updated with a lot of mods or
                      remanufactured. In the absence of any records, I've been assuming that was
                      sent from Hawaii to APG for testing.

                      I would also assume all the flame stuff was removed before these tanks were
                      put on display. At least that's been the case with a few M42B1s I was able
                      to examine. One had an MW Kellogg dataplate in the turret with the FT info.

                      LTC McCrary of the 713 Tank Battalion requested the coaxial mounting of a
                      75mm gun after the unit's experience on Okinawa. As for nomenclature, they
                      referred to their tanks simply as "the Hawaiin made" jobs.

                      Joe






                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Trent Telenko" <trent_telenko@...>
                      To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:01 PM
                      Subject: [G104] Researching Hawaiian Sherman Main Armament Flame Tanks


                      >I finally obtained a copy of the April 1948 USNI Proceedings article "FLAME
                      > THROWING SEABEES" by Col George F. Unmacht.
                      >
                      > A lot is starting to make sense regards what you really call a Hawaii
                      > built
                      > Sherman flame thrower tank.
                      >
                      > There were eight M4A3 hulled VVSS USMC flame tanks used at Iwo Jima.
                      >
                      > There were 54 composite hulled M4 (not M4A1) tanks with VVSS suspension
                      > used by
                      > the US Army at Okinawa.
                      >
                      > Col Unmacht's 43rd Chemical Warfare Laboratory referred to these tanks as
                      > the
                      > the "POA-CWS "75" H-1 H-2 with a fuel capacity of 290 gallons, per
                      > "FLAMETHROWING SEABEES."
                      >
                      >
                      > POA stood for "Pacific Ocean Area." CWS stood for Chemical Warfare
                      > Service.
                      >
                      > The "75" was for the 75 mm gun that the flame thrower displaced.
                      >
                      > The "H-1" and "H-2" were "Hawaii One and Hawaii Two for "fuel group" (the
                      > fuel
                      > tanks and plumbing) and the adapted Ronson flame gun. I don't know which
                      > stands
                      > for what. (I think I will need to break down and hire an archivist to
                      > research
                      > the US Army Forces Mid Pacific CWS files in the National Archives to
                      > determine
                      > which is which.)
                      >
                      > The Marines in their Iwo Jima after action reports referred to them as "CB
                      > Mk-1"
                      > for SeaBee Mark One. This was shortened to "M-1" in translations of
                      > captured
                      > Japanese documents referring to American Sherman flame thrower tanks in
                      > action
                      > on Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
                      >
                      > Later on, the various Army clerk typists for the multiple chemical officer
                      > reports in volumes one and two of the US Army 10th Army Okinawa/Operation
                      > Iceberg Action Report chewed up and spit out the 43rd Chemical
                      > Laboratory's
                      > "POW-CWS "75" H-1 H-2" designation several different ways.
                      >
                      >
                      > Post-WW2, when Col McKinney wrote up the development history of Hawaiian
                      > Mechanized flame throwers in the Draft 1949 Chemical Corps Historical
                      > Study No
                      > 4, "Portable Flame Thrower Operations in World War II" in the United
                      > States, he
                      > chose one of those 10th Army Action Reports as definitive "POA-CWS-H1."
                      >
                      > When Chemical Corps WW2 Green Book histories LABORATORY TO BATTLEFIELD and
                      > CHEMICALS IN COMBAT both came out in 1965 and spoke to the development of
                      > the
                      > Hawaii flame throwing M4's. They both used the POA-CWS-H1 from "Portable
                      > Flame
                      > Thrower Operations..." and not the 43rd Chemical Warfare Laboratory
                      > provisional
                      > designation.
                      >
                      > Since Col Unmacht retired in the late 1940's and died in 1954. He was not
                      > around
                      > to correct this.
                      >
                      > You can trace who used which documents in writing up their WW2 Sherman
                      > Flame
                      > tank development histories by whether they include the full "POW-CWS "75"
                      > H-1
                      > H-2" versus the "POA-CWS-H1."
                      >
                      > Based on that standard, the best published researchers on the Flame
                      > Sherman's
                      > are Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis.
                      >
                      > I have yet to find the 43rd Chemical Laboratory's full and complete
                      > designation
                      > for the 70 odd dual main armament Ronson flame gun and 75mm/105mm gun
                      > "POA-CWS-H5."
                      >
                      > What I do know is that the "POA-CWS-H5" came in several versions.
                      > Pictures show
                      > M4A3 (HVSS), M4A3 (HVSS) versions and there was recently a M4A3 (VVSS)
                      > version
                      > pulled from the woods of Camp Lejune (sp?) NC.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The odd duck is the Chemical Corps museum M4A1 (VVSS) with a 75mm gun and
                      > a
                      > flame gun. It has a early Lima Locomotive Works production number and the
                      > Evansville Indiana Arms Deport rebuild armor kit.
                      >
                      > See:
                      >
                      >
                      > 7321 M4A1(75) Lima LW 3058833 M42B1 conversion, R/N from Accession
                      > Record; S/N
                      > calculated from RN Ft Leonard Wood, MO USA
                      >
                      > The Chemical Corps museum does not have documentation on this tank prior
                      > to
                      > 1982. When the earlier Maryland Chemical Corps museum was shut down in
                      > 1970.
                      > This tank went to the Ordnance Museum at APG and went back to the new Ft
                      > Leonard
                      > Woodmuseum minus the earlier documentation.
                      >
                      > I strongly suspect that this tank *IS NOT* a POA-CWS-H5.
                      >
                      > I think we are looking at a development version of the CWS M5-4
                      > (E12-7R1)/Ordnance M42B1 that has a 75mm gun/Flame gun dual armament to
                      > match
                      > that of the POA-CWS-H5 that the 43rd Chemical Laboratory flame thrower
                      > group
                      > produced.
                      >
                      > Likely had the production of the 75 mm/flame gun dual armament would have
                      > been
                      > cut into production after the 150 CWS M5-4 (E12-7R1)/Ordnance M42B1 built
                      > by the
                      > end of WW2.
                      >
                      > The way to prove this would be to open up 7321 and see if it has a Ronson
                      > flame
                      > gun or an E7R1 flame gun. The E7R1 flame gun has a 360 degree traverse
                      > O-ring
                      > hydraulic set up that the Ronson flame gun does not.
                    • Trent Telenko
                      Joe, I contacted Kip Lindberg at the Chemical Corps Museum a few weeks ago and he ... I could be very wrong here, but that sounds like a late war Evansville
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 27, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Joe,

                        I contacted Kip Lindberg at the Chemical Corps Museum a few weeks ago and he
                        sent me the following:

                        >The H5 we have is, according to our records,
                        >a standard M4A1 manufactured by Lima Locomotive
                        >(#917) in 1942. Unfortunately, we have
                        >no records pertaining to its history prior to 1982,
                        >when it was transferred from the Ordnance Museum to
                        >the newly re-established Chemical Corps museum. It
                        >may have originally been a part of the Chemical Corps
                        >Museum, whose holdings were transferred to the Ordnance
                        >Museum when the Chemical Museum was closed in the 1970s,
                        >but if so, those records have been lost.

                        I could be very wrong here, but that sounds like a late war Evansville rebuild
                        to me.

                        As for the test results, I have a request out to NARA for an index of their CWS
                        317.4 Mechanized Flamethrower files in RG175.


                        Assuming that there is such an index, there should be a pointer to any test
                        results there.



                        Joe.DeMarco <snick13@...>

                        To: G104@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 6:49:18 PM
                        Subject: Re: [G104] Researching Hawaiian Sherman Main Armament Flame Tanks


                        >The odd duck is the Chemical Corps museum M4A1 (VVSS) with a 75mm gun and a
                        >flame gun. It has a early Lima Locomotive Works production number and the
                        >Evansville Indiana Arms Deport rebuild armor kit.

                        >7321 M4A1(75) Lima LW 3058833 M42B1 conversion, R/N from Accession Record;
                        >S/N calculated from RN Ft Leonard Wood, MO USA

                        Trent, I think you are confusing the M42B1 at Ft Leonard Wood with the M4A1
                        they call "POA-CWS-H5." Both of those were once at APG. Good luck finding
                        the test reports. In any case, the M42B1 is the one originally built by
                        Lima. The one with the 75mm gun/Flame gun dual armament was obviously made
                        by Pressed Steel Car originally. It was either updated with a lot of mods or
                        remanufactured. In the absence of any records, I've been assuming that was
                        sent from Hawaii to APG for testing.

                        I would also assume all the flame stuff was removed before these tanks were
                        put on display. At least that's been the case with a few M42B1s I was able
                        to examine. One had an MW Kellogg dataplate in the turret with the FT info.

                        LTC McCrary of the 713 Tank Battalion requested the coaxial mounting of a
                        75mm gun after the unit's experience on Okinawa. As for nomenclature, they
                        referred to their tanks simply as "the Hawaiin made" jobs.

                        Joe

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Trent Telenko" <trent_telenko@...>
                        To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:01 PM
                        Subject: [G104] Researching Hawaiian Sherman Main Armament Flame Tanks

                        >I finally obtained a copy of the April 1948 USNI Proceedings article "FLAME
                        > THROWING SEABEES" by Col George F. Unmacht.
                        >
                        > A lot is starting to make sense regards what you really call a Hawaii
                        > built
                        > Sherman flame thrower tank.
                        >
                        > There were eight M4A3 hulled VVSS USMC flame tanks used at Iwo Jima.
                        >
                        > There were 54 composite hulled M4 (not M4A1) tanks with VVSS suspension
                        > used by
                        > the US Army at Okinawa.
                        >
                        > Col Unmacht's 43rd Chemical Warfare Laboratory referred to these tanks as
                        > the
                        > the "POA-CWS "75" H-1 H-2 with a fuel capacity of 290 gallons, per
                        > "FLAMETHROWING SEABEES."
                        >
                        >
                        > POA stood for "Pacific Ocean Area." CWS stood for Chemical Warfare
                        > Service.
                        >
                        > The "75" was for the 75 mm gun that the flame thrower displaced.
                        >
                        > The "H-1" and "H-2" were "Hawaii One and Hawaii Two for "fuel group" (the
                        > fuel
                        > tanks and plumbing) and the adapted Ronson flame gun. I don't know which
                        > stands
                        > for what. (I think I will need to break down and hire an archivist to
                        > research
                        > the US Army Forces Mid Pacific CWS files in the National Archives to
                        > determine
                        > which is which.)
                        >
                        > The Marines in their Iwo Jima after action reports referred to them as "CB
                        > Mk-1"
                        > for SeaBee Mark One. This was shortened to "M-1" in translations of
                        > captured
                        > Japanese documents referring to American Sherman flame thrower tanks in
                        > action
                        > on Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
                        >
                        > Later on, the various Army clerk typists for the multiple chemical officer
                        > reports in volumes one and two of the US Army 10th Army Okinawa/Operation
                        > Iceberg Action Report chewed up and spit out the 43rd Chemical
                        > Laboratory's
                        > "POW-CWS "75" H-1 H-2" designation several different ways.
                        >
                        >
                        > Post-WW2, when Col McKinney wrote up the development history of Hawaiian
                        > Mechanized flame throwers in the Draft 1949 Chemical Corps Historical
                        > Study No
                        > 4, "Portable Flame Thrower Operations in World War II" in the United
                        > States, he
                        > chose one of those 10th Army Action Reports as definitive "POA-CWS-H1."
                        >
                        > When Chemical Corps WW2 Green Book histories LABORATORY TO BATTLEFIELD and
                        > CHEMICALS IN COMBAT both came out in 1965 and spoke to the development of
                        > the
                        > Hawaii flame throwing M4's. They both used the POA-CWS-H1 from "Portable
                        > Flame
                        > Thrower Operations..." and not the 43rd Chemical Warfare Laboratory
                        > provisional
                        > designation.
                        >
                        > Since Col Unmacht retired in the late 1940's and died in 1954. He was not
                        > around
                        > to correct this.
                        >
                        > You can trace who used which documents in writing up their WW2 Sherman
                        > Flame
                        > tank development histories by whether they include the full "POW-CWS "75"
                        > H-1
                        > H-2" versus the "POA-CWS-H1."
                        >
                        > Based on that standard, the best published researchers on the Flame
                        > Sherman's
                        > are Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis.
                        >
                        > I have yet to find the 43rd Chemical Laboratory's full and complete
                        > designation
                        > for the 70 odd dual main armament Ronson flame gun and 75mm/105mm gun
                        > "POA-CWS-H5."
                        >
                        > What I do know is that the "POA-CWS-H5" came in several versions.
                        > Pictures show
                        > M4A3 (HVSS), M4A3 (HVSS) versions and there was recently a M4A3 (VVSS)
                        > version
                        > pulled from the woods of Camp Lejune (sp?) NC.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The odd duck is the Chemical Corps museum M4A1 (VVSS) with a 75mm gun and
                        > a
                        > flame gun. It has a early Lima Locomotive Works production number and the
                        > Evansville Indiana Arms Deport rebuild armor kit.
                        >
                        > See:
                        >
                        >
                        > 7321 M4A1(75) Lima LW 3058833 M42B1 conversion, R/N from Accession
                        > Record; S/N
                        > calculated from RN Ft Leonard Wood, MO USA
                        >
                        > The Chemical Corps museum does not have documentation on this tank prior
                        > to
                        > 1982. When the earlier Maryland Chemical Corps museum was shut down in
                        > 1970.
                        > This tank went to the Ordnance Museum at APG and went back to the new Ft
                        > Leonard
                        > Woodmuseum minus the earlier documentation.
                        >
                        > I strongly suspect that this tank *IS NOT* a POA-CWS-H5.
                        >
                        > I think we are looking at a development version of the CWS M5-4
                        > (E12-7R1)/Ordnance M42B1 that has a 75mm gun/Flame gun dual armament to
                        > match
                        > that of the POA-CWS-H5 that the 43rd Chemical Laboratory flame thrower
                        > group
                        > produced.
                        >
                        > Likely had the production of the 75 mm/flame gun dual armament would have
                        > been
                        > cut into production after the 150 CWS M5-4 (E12-7R1)/Ordnance M42B1 built
                        > by the
                        > end of WW2.
                        >
                        > The way to prove this would be to open up 7321 and see if it has a Ronson
                        > flame
                        > gun or an E7R1 flame gun. The E7R1 flame gun has a 360 degree traverse
                        > O-ring
                        > hydraulic set up that the Ronson flame gun does not.







                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Trent Telenko
                        It looks like I am going to have to rethink my NARA research strategy. I got a copy of one of the NDRC s 1948 vintage series of books telling of it s WW2
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 28, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          It looks like I am going to have to rethink my NARA research strategy.

                          I got a copy of one of the NDRC's 1948 vintage series of books telling of it's
                          WW2 exploits -- CHEMISTRY -- and it had a chapter on the development of flame
                          throwers both Portable and Mechanized.

                          Pages 422 thru 428 cover mechanized (tank/LVT/Landing craft mounted)
                          flamethrowers and it seems to shed a great deal of light on this Chemical Corps
                          Museum mystery M4A1 dual 75mm/flamethrower tank.


                          From the book:

                          "UNUSED DEVELOPMENTS

                          A much debated point, which had an important bearing on the development of large
                          mechanized flame throwers, was the need for retention of the main armament such
                          as the 75mm cannon in the M4 tank. The Pacific Theater accepted the removal of
                          the cannon to increase the amount of flamethrower fuel which could be carried.
                          The European Theater commanders insisted on retaining the cannon together with
                          as many rounds of ammunition as possible. Accordingly, in March 1945 at a
                          conference of the using and development services with the NDRC, it was decided
                          to initiate the development of a new design which would combine a large
                          flamethrower with the full retention of the tank's main armament.The University
                          of Iowa was in the process of designing and constructing twenty of these units
                          in M-4 tanks when the war ended."


                          When I checked my photocopies from R.P. Hunnicutt's SHERMAN, it had nothing on
                          this University of Iowa flame throwing Sherman program.

                          I'm going to quiz the archivists at NARA about NDRC documents -- particularly
                          the conference minutes of this March 1945 meeting -- and follow up with the
                          University of Iowa.







                          ________________________________
                          From: Trent Telenko <trent_telenko@...>
                          To: G104@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sat, November 27, 2010 12:29:00 PM
                          Subject: Re: [G104] Researching Hawaiian Sherman Main Armament Flame Tanks


                          Joe,

                          I contacted Kip Lindberg at the Chemical Corps Museum a few weeks ago and he
                          sent me the following:

                          >The H5 we have is, according to our records,
                          >a standard M4A1 manufactured by Lima Locomotive
                          >(#917) in 1942. Unfortunately, we have
                          >no records pertaining to its history prior to 1982,
                          >when it was transferred from the Ordnance Museum to
                          >the newly re-established Chemical Corps museum. It
                          >may have originally been a part of the Chemical Corps
                          >Museum, whose holdings were transferred to the Ordnance
                          >Museum when the Chemical Museum was closed in the 1970s,
                          >but if so, those records have been lost.

                          I could be very wrong here, but that sounds like a late war Evansville rebuild
                          to me.

                          As for the test results, I have a request out to NARA for an index of their CWS
                          317.4 Mechanized Flamethrower files in RG175.

                          Assuming that there is such an index, there should be a pointer to any test
                          results there.

                          Joe.DeMarco <snick13@...>

                          To: G104@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 6:49:18 PM
                          Subject: Re: [G104] Researching Hawaiian Sherman Main Armament Flame Tanks

                          >The odd duck is the Chemical Corps museum M4A1 (VVSS) with a 75mm gun and a
                          >flame gun. It has a early Lima Locomotive Works production number and the
                          >Evansville Indiana Arms Deport rebuild armor kit.

                          >7321 M4A1(75) Lima LW 3058833 M42B1 conversion, R/N from Accession Record;
                          >S/N calculated from RN Ft Leonard Wood, MO USA

                          Trent, I think you are confusing the M42B1 at Ft Leonard Wood with the M4A1
                          they call "POA-CWS-H5." Both of those were once at APG. Good luck finding
                          the test reports. In any case, the M42B1 is the one originally built by
                          Lima. The one with the 75mm gun/Flame gun dual armament was obviously made
                          by Pressed Steel Car originally. It was either updated with a lot of mods or
                          remanufactured. In the absence of any records, I've been assuming that was
                          sent from Hawaii to APG for testing.

                          I would also assume all the flame stuff was removed before these tanks were
                          put on display. At least that's been the case with a few M42B1s I was able
                          to examine. One had an MW Kellogg dataplate in the turret with the FT info.

                          LTC McCrary of the 713 Tank Battalion requested the coaxial mounting of a
                          75mm gun after the unit's experience on Okinawa. As for nomenclature, they
                          referred to their tanks simply as "the Hawaiin made" jobs.

                          Joe

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Trent Telenko" <trent_telenko@...>
                          To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:01 PM
                          Subject: [G104] Researching Hawaiian Sherman Main Armament Flame Tanks

                          >I finally obtained a copy of the April 1948 USNI Proceedings article "FLAME
                          > THROWING SEABEES" by Col George F. Unmacht.
                          >
                          > A lot is starting to make sense regards what you really call a Hawaii
                          > built
                          > Sherman flame thrower tank.
                          >
                          > There were eight M4A3 hulled VVSS USMC flame tanks used at Iwo Jima.
                          >
                          > There were 54 composite hulled M4 (not M4A1) tanks with VVSS suspension
                          > used by
                          > the US Army at Okinawa.
                          >
                          > Col Unmacht's 43rd Chemical Warfare Laboratory referred to these tanks as
                          > the
                          > the "POA-CWS "75" H-1 H-2 with a fuel capacity of 290 gallons, per
                          > "FLAMETHROWING SEABEES."
                          >
                          >
                          > POA stood for "Pacific Ocean Area." CWS stood for Chemical Warfare
                          > Service.
                          >
                          > The "75" was for the 75 mm gun that the flame thrower displaced.
                          >
                          > The "H-1" and "H-2" were "Hawaii One and Hawaii Two for "fuel group" (the
                          > fuel
                          > tanks and plumbing) and the adapted Ronson flame gun. I don't know which
                          > stands
                          > for what. (I think I will need to break down and hire an archivist to
                          > research
                          > the US Army Forces Mid Pacific CWS files in the National Archives to
                          > determine
                          > which is which.)
                          >
                          > The Marines in their Iwo Jima after action reports referred to them as "CB
                          > Mk-1"
                          > for SeaBee Mark One. This was shortened to "M-1" in translations of
                          > captured
                          > Japanese documents referring to American Sherman flame thrower tanks in
                          > action
                          > on Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
                          >
                          > Later on, the various Army clerk typists for the multiple chemical officer
                          > reports in volumes one and two of the US Army 10th Army Okinawa/Operation
                          > Iceberg Action Report chewed up and spit out the 43rd Chemical
                          > Laboratory's
                          > "POW-CWS "75" H-1 H-2" designation several different ways.
                          >
                          >
                          > Post-WW2, when Col McKinney wrote up the development history of Hawaiian
                          > Mechanized flame throwers in the Draft 1949 Chemical Corps Historical
                          > Study No
                          > 4, "Portable Flame Thrower Operations in World War II" in the United
                          > States, he
                          > chose one of those 10th Army Action Reports as definitive "POA-CWS-H1."
                          >
                          > When Chemical Corps WW2 Green Book histories LABORATORY TO BATTLEFIELD and
                          > CHEMICALS IN COMBAT both came out in 1965 and spoke to the development of
                          > the
                          > Hawaii flame throwing M4's. They both used the POA-CWS-H1 from "Portable
                          > Flame
                          > Thrower Operations..." and not the 43rd Chemical Warfare Laboratory
                          > provisional
                          > designation.
                          >
                          > Since Col Unmacht retired in the late 1940's and died in 1954. He was not
                          > around
                          > to correct this.
                          >
                          > You can trace who used which documents in writing up their WW2 Sherman
                          > Flame
                          > tank development histories by whether they include the full "POW-CWS "75"
                          > H-1
                          > H-2" versus the "POA-CWS-H1."
                          >
                          > Based on that standard, the best published researchers on the Flame
                          > Sherman's
                          > are Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis.
                          >
                          > I have yet to find the 43rd Chemical Laboratory's full and complete
                          > designation
                          > for the 70 odd dual main armament Ronson flame gun and 75mm/105mm gun
                          > "POA-CWS-H5."
                          >
                          > What I do know is that the "POA-CWS-H5" came in several versions.
                          > Pictures show
                          > M4A3 (HVSS), M4A3 (HVSS) versions and there was recently a M4A3 (VVSS)
                          > version
                          > pulled from the woods of Camp Lejune (sp?) NC.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The odd duck is the Chemical Corps museum M4A1 (VVSS) with a 75mm gun and
                          > a
                          > flame gun. It has a early Lima Locomotive Works production number and the
                          > Evansville Indiana Arms Deport rebuild armor kit.
                          >
                          > See:
                          >
                          >
                          > 7321 M4A1(75) Lima LW 3058833 M42B1 conversion, R/N from Accession
                          > Record; S/N
                          > calculated from RN Ft Leonard Wood, MO USA
                          >
                          > The Chemical Corps museum does not have documentation on this tank prior
                          > to
                          > 1982. When the earlier Maryland Chemical Corps museum was shut down in
                          > 1970.
                          > This tank went to the Ordnance Museum at APG and went back to the new Ft
                          > Leonard
                          > Woodmuseum minus the earlier documentation.
                          >
                          > I strongly suspect that this tank *IS NOT* a POA-CWS-H5.
                          >
                          > I think we are looking at a development version of the CWS M5-4
                          > (E12-7R1)/Ordnance M42B1 that has a 75mm gun/Flame gun dual armament to
                          > match
                          > that of the POA-CWS-H5 that the 43rd Chemical Laboratory flame thrower
                          > group
                          > produced.
                          >
                          > Likely had the production of the 75 mm/flame gun dual armament would have
                          > been
                          > cut into production after the 150 CWS M5-4 (E12-7R1)/Ordnance M42B1 built
                          > by the
                          > end of WW2.
                          >
                          > The way to prove this would be to open up 7321 and see if it has a Ronson
                          > flame
                          > gun or an E7R1 flame gun. The E7R1 flame gun has a 360 degree traverse
                          > O-ring
                          > hydraulic set up that the Ronson flame gun does not.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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